Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. All you have to do is dial 8772072276. If you want, you can also email me at info at karm.org.

For the podcasters, today's show is 11-21-23. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. If you want, you can email me at info at karm.org. 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Thank you for taking my call. I enjoy listening to what you have to say, generally anyway, except when I hear so many Christians think that Mormons are not Christians. I guess we also have a disagreement on, I guess, that works are not important at all in your salvation. So anyway, if you want to chat about it, we can chat.

Sure. We have two different definitions of God. God has always been God and God has not always been God.

Let's just say those two definitions. Can they both be the same God? If one was always God and one was not always God, they couldn't be the same person or same God, right? Well, okay, let's stick to the Scriptures instead of hypothetical situations.

This is exactly it. In Christianity, God has always been God. In Mormonism, God has not always been God. So that's exactly related to what we're talking about here.

It depends on your destination of always. Well, was your God an exalted man? Is our God the creator of the universe? Yes. Is your God the creator of the universe?

Yes. You're trying to go back into something that's way beyond what's defined in the Scriptures. Let's begin at the creation. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. This is not an opportunity for you to teach. This is a talk show.

Now you want to start teaching. I'm not going to allow that. I'm asking questions. Okay. No, you're not.

You're trying to teach. You want to stick with the Scriptures, but I try to ask you a question, and you just ignored the question. It's the issue of God always being God or God not always being God. It's basic logic that cannot be descriptive of the same being. It's either the case that the one being who is God has always existed as the one being who is God, or it's not the case that the one God who has existed has always existed eternally. This is simple logic. How in the world can you go beyond the creation of the universe and speculate beyond that? I'm not talking about that.

How can you go beyond that? We're talking about who created time, who created the universe, who created the world. If you can't answer the simple questions, why are you here? It's a simple question.

You wanted to talk about it. It's simple. No, it's not a simple question.

Yes, it is. You're delving into things beyond our realities. No, I'm not. I'm asking you a simple question. It's either the case that there's only one God in all existence, or it's not the case that there's only one God in all existence. This is basic, basic logic. It's either the case that I'm talking to you, or it's not the case that I'm talking to you. This is basic.

It's basic. It's either the case that the Christian God is eternal, or it's not the case that the Christian God is eternal. This is basic logic. Both can't be true. The Christian God is eternal.

Let's ask, was the God that you believe in ever a man on another world? I don't know. Yes, you do know. Don't tell me that. You know it, and I know you know it.

Don't play the game. I know that you know that your God is an exalted man, that he lived on another world. He followed the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet and became a God.

You know that, and I know it. Mormon Doctrine, page 321, by Bruce R. McConkie. He said, God used to be a man on another planet. You don't go with scripture. That's not scripture. You don't go with scripture. Yes, we do.

No, you don't. There are things written beyond scripture, I agree. But the basic thing is that the church comes from scripture. Look, you just said one thing and shifted to another.

You're not even listening. Mormon Doctrine says there's many, many gods. Do you believe you have the potential of becoming a god? Do you have the ability? Do I believe that I am made an heir through Christ of all things? Yes. I believe I'm a joint heir with Christ.

Notice everybody. What does that mean? You won't answer direct questions. Do you believe you have the potential of becoming a god? Is Jesus Christ a god? No. Do you believe you have the ability, the potential of becoming a god? It's a simple question.

Do you believe that's the case? I'm answering it with a statement that we become joint heirs with Christ who is a god. Joint heirs. Joint heirs. Joint heirs biblically deals with adoption of Romans chapter 8.

It has to do with the legality. It's not an alteration of our nature of being not god to being god. So I'm asking you a very specific question.

Okay. Do you believe that you personally have the potential of becoming a god? I believe that I'm a child of god and can become all that he wants me to be. And if I am his son, then I believe I could be like my father.

So you're being around the bush saying it. Is it the case that your god resides near a star called Kolob? I have no idea about that. Pearl of Great Price pages 34 to 35.

Pearl of Great Price. He resides near a star called Kolob. I don't know where that star is.

Well, it doesn't matter. There's a star out there and that's where your god resides according to your scriptures. Okay. You know, I try to focus my faith on Jesus Christ and the scriptures. You know, to me these are just peripheral ideas that are out there. It's not a crucial doctrine. If somebody understands that, great. It's crucial. It's not crucial. Yes, it is crucial.

Why? It's whether you're serving the true god or a false god. That's what it comes down to. You're either serving the true god or a false one, because you believe you have the potential of becoming a god because you're not a god now. Well, Elohim in Mormonism is god the father. And we know that Joseph Smith said that he was not always god. You know he said that, right? Okay. Right.

You know that. And that he would take away the veil and show that he became god. And you believe you have the same potential. Biblically speaking, that's impossible. There is no god besides god. God has always been god. There's never a time when he was not god.

He therefore was not a man in another world. They're not the same god. And Mormonism even teaches that it's not the same god.

I don't know if you're aware of that. Not the same god. We believe that Jesus Christ is not god the father, yes. We do believe that they are separate. Right, but you believe that Jesus is a god, the father is a god, and the Holy Ghost is a god. That's three gods. That is true. I agree with that statement completely.

Okay, so. And then there's a mother goddess. Because God has a goddess wife. That's not clearly stated anywhere in the scripture.

It's, once again, one of these things that kind of come in from the side. You know and I know that that's what they teach. I know you know it. So, the Bible, however, says, from everlasting to everlasting, he's god. Psalm 90 verse 2. He says he doesn't even know of any other gods.

Well, if Jesus is a god and the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, excuse me, is a god, then how come God doesn't even know about him? Well, in the beginning, God said, let us make man in our own image. Let us make man in our own image. We believe that Jesus Christ was with God. During the creation.

Can't be. It's plural. I mean, doesn't your Bible say the same thing? Does it say, let us make man in our own image? Yes. That's Genesis 1-26.

Yes, it does. Let us make man according to our image, according to our life. There's three plurals referring to the single being who's god. But, see, the thing is, that's showing the doctrine of the trinity. But you guys don't have the doctrine of the trinity. You guys have a triad. A triad is three separate gods. A trinity is one god.

That's the difference. For hundreds of years, the Catholic Church believed, or at least a large part of the Catholic Church believed, in three separate individuals. That's the whole Arian controversy. That they were discussing in the Council of Nicaea, and it persisted for, I mean, you're aware of that, right? Between, what, Arian and Anastasia, or whatever his name was, all those letters that went back and forth.

Arianism was dealing with denying that Jesus Christ was part of the trinity. And so, hold on, we've got to break, OK? Gordon, if you'd hold on, OK, because we've got a hard break here, we've got to take it. Hey, folks, hopefully, Gordon will still be on the air when we get back.

Maybe you can talk about how to get your sins forgiven in Mormonism. You've got to hear this. It'll be worth discussing. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's see if Gordon is still on. Hey, Gordon, are you still there? I'm still here. All right. Can you hear me? OK.

Yes, I can. Thanks for staying. OK. OK. My pleasure. You know, I found the quote where Joseph Smith himself said that God was not God from all eternity. OK, so it's a quote from Joseph Smith.

It's not in the Bible. Was he right or wrong? He may have been right.

I mean, he did a lot of, I believe that he was an inspired prophet that did a lot of good things. Was he perfect? No.

Did he get everything right? No, I don't think so. No, there were no prophets after Jesus. The Bible says there aren't any. Just so you know.

OK. There's no prophets after Jesus? That's right. The law of the prophets were until John, Luke 16, 16. What about Paul? Paul wasn't a prophet. Wasn't he called Paul an apostle? Yeah, he was an apostle, not a prophet. Can I make him a prophet? Wasn't he prophetic? You're playing with the words.

OK, well we disagree on that as well then. I would consider Paul a prophet. No, he was never called a prophet. He's an apostle. So Jesus said the law of the prophets were proclaimed until John. That's John the Baptist. So there's no more.

It's a simple thing. OK, I think you're reading into it things that really... I would consider Peter a prophet too. No, you're changing the word meaning. Like someone who proclaims something. Now he's a prophet. Well, that makes me a prophet then because I'm proclaiming something, right?

So there we go. Well, those that work for God and prophesy, I think by my definition, maybe you have a different definition, but I would consider them prophets. That I'm a prophet, aren't I?

That's what I do. I work for God and I prophesy, proclaim. I've even predicted the future once and it occurred. If God tells you to say something and you say it and it's true, I would say that you're a prophetic or a prophet. I'm saying to you right now God wants me to tell you that Mormonism is not Christian. I'm a prophet because I'm being prophetic and I'm telling you the truth. I think the Holy Spirit is telling me to say that Mormonism is prophetic. So one or the other is a false prophet.

Well, let's work with that. The Holy Spirit bears witness of truth, right? Okay, John 14, 26. Okay, Jesus reveals the Holy Spirit. He sends the Holy Spirit, right? Jesus and the Father do.

You're aware of that? John 14, 26. Okay, good. And Jesus reveals the Father, Matthew 11, 27, right? That's correct. Okay, so in order to have the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus has to send them to you and reveal them to you.

That's the way it goes. Now, how do you know you have the right Jesus? Okay, because, would you agree with me? Because of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, the Holy Spirit witnesses that to you.

But the Holy Spirit bears witness to me that Mormonism is not true. Well, I think that's an awfully arrogant statement. You just told me that it is true.

How's that not arrogant? I'm not saying that you're not a Christian. I'm saying you are not a Christian. And you are not a Christian. Yeah, that's correct. Okay, so to me that's a very arrogant statement. No, it's not. How can you judge when Christ is a judge? I'm not judging.

I'm informing you. Jesus said, In the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Joseph Smith said he was a prophet when the Bible says it worked anymore.

He said he saw God the Father, right? Right? That's true. I'm going to read you something. I'll prove to you. I will prove to you.

Proof is different than persuasion. I'll prove to you that Joseph Smith lied about it. I'll prove it right now from Scripture. That he lied about seeing God the Father. And therefore, Mormonism is false. I'm going to prove it.

It won't persuade you because proof is different than persuasion. I'm going to go to 1 Timothy 6, 13. I'm going to read a few verses because I want you to make sure you understand the context. In fact, I will do it in the King James Version.

This is what he says. I've got to read for 30 seconds here but little by little I want you to know the context of what's going on. Paul says, I give thee charge in the sight of God who quickeneth all things and before Christ Jesus who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession. So Paul's talking about God and Christ and the Father and Jesus. Would you agree so far? Right? Okay.

Okay. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unreducible, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which in his times he will shew, who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and the Lord of lords, who alone hath immortality dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen nor can see, to him be honor and power everlasting. Who is it who can't be seen?

Talk about God and Jesus. Well, people saw Jesus. So who cannot be seen? It's God the Father. I think the full understanding of God the Father and Jesus Christ cannot be fully understood by us.

That's not what it says. But the fact that they can have a vision of it is not refuted. The fact that like Stephen in his martyr, he saw heaven. Heavens were open and he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of God. No, he did not. He did not.

What does it say in your Bible then? No, in the Bible it does not say he saw God the Father. It says he saw the glory of God. He saw the glory, the emanating light presence of God. It doesn't say he saw the Father.

I know this. So you need to read that to the end of what's in the book of Acts chapter 7. So that's what's important. It doesn't say he saw God the Father. It says the glory of. Because right there, it's in verse 55. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently at the heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. So that's what he saw.

The glory of God and Jesus standing there. To me it's semantics between the glory of God and Jesus standing next to God as being different from the... No, he only saw brightness or something and Jesus standing at the side. It's semantics to me. No, it's not. You want to make it semantics, but it's not. If you come to my house, which you'd be welcome to do.

I'll treat you nicely and give you a steak and everything. But you come to my house and if by chance I'm not there or I'm inside, I don't know you're knocking on the door and you go home, then you saw the house of Matt. You didn't see Matt. See, the glory of God. God exists and the glory is emanating out. That's what Stephen saw. In fact, Jesus says in John 6, 46, not that any man has seen the Father except the one talking about himself. He's seen the Father. So Jesus even says all the appearances in the Old Testament. How do you deal with Moses and he spoke to God face to face like a man speaks to his friend? Yeah, Exodus 33, 20. And that's not God the Father because Jesus said in John 6, 46, not that any man has seen the Father. Moses is a man. Jesus says no one's seen the Father except himself. So therefore, God, I mean, Jesus, excuse me, Moses was not seeing God the Father. This is according to what Jesus said. John 6, 46.

Okay, now let me back up. Do you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same entity? No, when you say same entity, it's not a good word.

It's a good word. I don't know what you mean by the same God because Mormonism, they can use the words differently. There's only one being who is God and he exists as a triune being. There's only one being, not three gods. Is Jesus Christ that God? No, you don't say it that way. Is Jesus Christ that God? We don't say it that way because it doesn't make sense from our perspective to use that terminology.

You don't say is he that God because if God is one being of three persons and one of the persons exists and becomes flesh, you don't say the one person is that old God. It makes no sense. It's like saying time is past, present, and future. And so time is that three thing. Well, is the past that time? What? It doesn't make sense to say it that way.

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Okay, so Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father. The Bible says he cannot be seen.

I proved Mormonism is false. It doesn't mean you're going to believe it because you don't listen to scripture. Except that Stephen saw God with Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And Moses spoke to God face to face.

Yeah, that's Exodus 33, 11 actually. But look, so Moses saw God but Jesus says in John's... Look, Jesus says it wasn't the Father. He says in John 6.46, not that anyone has seen the Father.

That's what Jesus said, John 6.46. So did Moses see the Father? Did he? Did Moses see God?

I didn't ask that. I said did Moses see the Father? Did he see the Father? Because Jesus said not that anyone has seen the Father. He said Moses had not seen the Father. So he did not see God the Father. So who were they seeing in the Old Testament who's God Almighty but not God the Father? It's a pre-incarnate Christ.

Okay. That's who it is. Okay, he saw and spoke with Christ. The pre-incarnate Christ. And so Paul says that the Father, that's who he's talking about, was an unapproachable light who no man has seen. He's consistent with what Jesus said. No man has seen or can see. Joseph Smith lied to you.

Flat out. And your testimony is not from God. It's from the devil. Once again, I go back to that experience with Stephen, and it's pretty well laid out there that he saw the Father and Jesus Christ. He says, gains intently into heaven and saw the glory of God.

That's what it says. And then he goes on to clarify and he says, and Jesus standing next to God. He didn't use the term glory of God again.

That's right, he didn't. So the glory of God is a reference to the Father, and Jesus standing is a reference to his position next to the Father. So he saw Jesus directly. You grant that. It says he saw the glory of God, in this case the Father. He saw the glory of it, of him.

And then he clarified it further by saying, and Jesus standing next to God. So let's go on to another topic. I think we're in the past at that. Well, hold on. Unfortunately, we've got like 30 seconds left in the show, okay? Okay.

Seriously. And so I'm going to be off the radio live tomorrow and Wednesday and Friday, because it's holidays. I'll be back on Monday. Do you want to call back Monday? You want to call back Monday?

I don't know that I can. I enjoy listening to you when I can, but it's not always possible for me to stop and dial in. But I'll try. I'll save you on my speed dial. Sounds good. I hope you do. See if we can hash out a couple of other things.

Yeah, and I plan to come down there in Utah in a few weeks. Maybe we can meet, okay? I'll let you guys know when I'm coming down.

There's the break. Okay, we've got to go. You've got my number.

Thanks for calling. Well, I don't know if I do or not. I've got to go, because it's hard break. I'll be over in five, ten seconds here. Okay. Email me if you want.

Info at karm.org. Okay. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye-bye. Hey, folks.

We're out of time, and enjoy the conversation. I hope you did, too. May the Lord bless you. Talk to you live on Monday next week. We'll see you. Have a great Thanksgiving. Another program powered by the Truth Network.