Matt Slick Live

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at www.com.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick Live! Matt Slick Live We also, we simulcast a show on rumble.com forward slash Matt Slick Live. You can also watch, if you're interested, it's not a big deal, but on Facebook and YouTube. And so we have the information that you need on karm.org forward slash social media.

Just type in social media at the end and it'll get you the stuff. And what's really good about the, oh man, rumble, okay, whoa, sorry about that. Oh, nice yawning. What's so good about that is the people who are in the room and the discussions that we have with them. Good folks, good, seriously good folks.

All right. We have nobody waiting right now and when that happens, often what I do is do hate mail and or questions, Q&A from radio listeners who, boy, got a good yawn. I did not get enough sleep last night, obviously, and I've been up early and working hard and doing a lot of physical work and getting things ready.

And then I can write a sermon and do Bible study and the radio and so much more to do, you know, praise God that at my age I can still do a lot of stuff and I'm just thankful for that. All right, hey, why don't you give me a call, 877-207-2276. So I had to go out to the store today and get a replacement sheet of wood for underneath our kitchen sink. You know, over the years it's kind of gotten damaged, not a big deal, just cut it out with a jigsaw and measurements went to the store and get a, you know, some two pieces of plywood we're going to cut. My friend is here and we're going to cut it and put some stuff in there.

You know, it's easy stuff, just standard stuff. All right, so I'm always looking for opportunities to witness and so we're in the self-checkout lane, lane, lane, lane. At any rate, and there's a nice young lady there helping out and doing stuff like that with people and I'm always looking, it's got to be some way to witness, to spread the word and it's impromptu situations and I said, oh, that's right, I remember what I said. I said, do people try and steal? You know, it's a good opening question.

Do people try and steal here? She goes, oh, all the time. And I said, you know, I can't understand that because, you know, I'm a minister and I just believe in honesty and integrity. She says, oh, where do you, what church?

So I explained what I do. I say minister is a generic kind of a thing and I said, well, you know, I'm an apologist. I defend the faith and she goes, I said, you're a Christian? She says, yes.

So we're getting right into the conversation. I said, what church do you go to? And I could tell or I suspected for the type of the name of the church. I said, what's happening now, church, you know? I said, oh, do they have women pastors and elders? She goes, yes.

So all of this is lasted within a minute, right? And I'm trying to be polite and I said, okay. I said, look, I said, yeah, I studied this kind of stuff and, you know, they're not supposed to be pastors and elders. And she just smiles. She's trying to be nice.

And I said, look, let me share a website. And I show it on my phone, I show the website and I talk about some stuff and try and just try and, you know, just women pastors and elders are so bad. It is so bad. And they're not to be in that position. They should not be. It's just bad.

It's bad practically and it's bad theologically, really bad theologically. And it's just not a good thing. And so I'm saying that on purpose. How people want to call up and go, what, what are you saying? You've heard me. And as I always, not always, but, you know, I'll say, I'll say over the radio.

I even told her this. I said, look, I do radio but never radio for 20 years. And I said, semi-regularly, you know, I'll offer to debate the women pastors, elders, you know, I'll fly to your church, we'll have a debate.

It's got to be tele, you know, either film or whatever. I said, no one takes me up on it. You know, does the Bible support women pastors and elders? And it doesn't. You know, the Bible does not.

In fact, it condemns it. And so what really bothers me is why, let me just say it. Why is it that Christians don't want to believe God's word? Why do they, they, they want to do what's popular, do what they think is right instead of submitting to God's truth and in their sin and in their rebellion against God's word and having women pastors and elders?

And they should stop that. And if you go to a church that has pastors, women pastors and elders, you should go. You should leave.

Okay? You can go to the elders and say you're not supposed to have women pastors and elders. Because the Bible says, and you can go to my website and you can look it up, women pastors and elders and why it's not biblical. And there's the scriptures. There's the references. It's right there in scripture, all right? Not just an opinion.

You know, I'm not a misogynist. But that's what it says. You know, Paul says in 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13, he says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but remain silent, for Adam was first created. He ties it back to the created order. Then you go to, you know, 1 Peter 3, 15, the next chapter over. Paul says that, he says in the next chapter, what they're trying to do is, he's saying he's given instruction on how to behave in the household of God. That's what he's saying.

The household of God. That's what he's doing. And so why is it that they're not believing? Why is it that they, this is what he's giving instruction to?

Well, if people are, that's what he's saying, why aren't you listening? I just don't get it. And then, you know, he says, Paul says that the elder, you know, at 1 Timothy 5, 17, he says that the elders are worthy of double honor, especially those who are regarded preaching and teaching. So a preacher, the pastor, is an elder.

Alright. So it says the elder in Titus 1, 5 through 7 and also 1 Timothy 3, 1 through, well, first several verses, that an elder is to be an ermias kunikas in Greek, you know, a man of one woman, a husband of one wife. How does that happen?

How do you do that if you're a woman? And, you know, people say, well, that just was meant for the culture. Then why did Paul tie it into the created order, and why do you say he's giving instructions for the church and how to behave in the church?

So this drives me crazy. Why is it people refuse to believe the word of God? That's what I'm saying.

If you don't believe, you know, if you believe that women pastors and elders, you're disobedient to the word of God. Okay? I'll just say it.

You can call me up and you can disagree. You can say, well, what about this? What about that? We'll answer them.

Okay? Talk about Phoebe. Talk about Deborah. We can talk about them. Priscilla, you can do it. You can call me up and say, well, you think you're wrong. Okay.

Why am I wrong? Show me scripture where it says that women can be pastors and elders. And why is this so significant? Why is it so important? Well, it is because of doctrine called federal headship. Federal headship is the teaching that the male, not the female, but the male represents a descendants.

The male represents a descendants. So Adam and Eve were in the garden. She sinned first, then she gave the fruit to Adam, but sin entered the world through Adam. Romans 5, 12, it did not enter through her, but she was in the world because he's a federal head. And when they hid themselves, the pre-incarnate Christ came and said to the man, where are you? He didn't say Eve, where are you, or Adam and Eve. He said to the man, where are you?

He went straight to the man. Why? Because the man's a captain of the ship. Just like a captain of a ship. Think of that.

That's what federal headship is. You know, you have a great captain, and, so why do we have the brake on now? We've got a brake on. What's going on? All right, are we on the air? Don't know what happened there. That's out of our normal time frame and reference. Don't know what's going on.

They're getting new guys. Yes, you're live. You're live? Okay. Thanks. Okay.

Because we have new guys in there sometimes, and then they go, you know, what would I do? Well, it's just fine. It happens.

It's not a big deal. All right. So, back to the women pastors and elders.

Okay. So, whenever I did my research, 80% of the churches and denominations that adopt women pastors and elders within two generations start going pro-homosexual. They started, you know, it's an alternative lifestyle. We've got to be loving and kind, and it's okay, and, you know, and, no, it's not okay.

And we do need to be loving and kind, sure, but it's not. It's not homosexuality. The LGBT movement, it's all, it's sin.

It is sin and rebellion against God. You know, I'm going to offer a complaint. I know there's a lot of godly people out there. I know there are. There's a lot of godly people out there, and a lot of godly pastors, a lot of people who believe the word of God. So, I'm not talking about them.

There's some good ones out. Okay. However, so many people who claim to be Christians just deny the word of God, trample it underfoot, and subject it to their feelings and their preferences. You know. And so, women pastors, that's just so misogynistic. Are you checking what scripture says?

Yeah. Because the Bible does not support women pastors and elders, folks. It just does not. It condemns it. It says don't do it. Okay. And, but churches do it.

I could never go to a church where they have women pastors and elders, because I can't trust them. You can't get this right. How do you get that right?

Anything else? You can't even get the, it says not to do it, and you just disobey it. I don't trust you. That's my view. And so, it's going to go bad. You know.

Why is it that people just who claim the name of Christ don't want to believe the word of Christ? And, yeah. I just have a hard time with that. That's me.

I have a hard time with it. All right. Hey, let's try and get on the air with Gabriel from Maryland. Gabriel, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt.

Thanks for taking the call. So, the specifics of my question is Israel being the vineyard of the Lord, like symbolically representing, being represented as a vineyard. And, you have that in Isaiah 5-7 where he explicitly says, indeed, Israel is the vineyard of the Lord, who commends armies, etc. But, if you did not have that passage, if it wasn't explicitly stated, would you still be able to call Israel the vineyard of the Lord with all the additional imagery related to that?

Yes. Psalm 80, verse 8, you removed a vine from Egypt. You drove out the nations and planted it. So, the idea is there in scripture. And, all you need is one verse to say it. As people will often say, well, it only says it one time. And, I say, well, how many times has God got to say something for it to be true?

So, the vineyard, it's there. Yeah. Okay. So, that was kind of like the pinpoint to my broader question, which is, in hermeneutics and connecting symbolism, do you have to have a single explicit statement, or is it sufficient to build evidence from weak evidence, build up from weak evidence of multiple verses that kind of allude to things but don't just say it outright? Yes and no. Okay.

There's a yes and no. Sometimes doctrines are explicitly taught, and sometimes they're implicitly taught. Sometimes God wants us to look at a parable and find out what's hidden in the parable, and then we learn the truth out of it.

Sometimes you don't learn a principle until you've examined several scriptures. And, we've got a break, so hold on buddy, okay? We'll be right back. We'll continue talking about this, all right?

And, hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 8772072276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 8772072276.

Here's Matt Slick with Gabriel. And, Gabriel, are you still there? I'm still here. All right, man. Okay. So, we had a break there, and we talked a little bit about the vineyard, which is out of Isaiah 5-7, good call.

So, yes, and so what else you got? So, other examples, I guess, would be the Trinity where it's kind of an opposite example in that you don't have an explicit verse that lists all three other than the baptism one, I guess, but you sort of infer from the evidence that there is such a thing as the Trinity. Yes, it's a necessary conclusion by looking at scripture.

It's a logically necessary conclusion. And so, is it more the logic that leads you to that conclusion, or is it less than the biblical evidence? Well, it's biblical. It's biblical because the Bible says there's one God, Isaiah 43, 10, 44, 6, 44, 8, 45, 5, one God. All right, but it says Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, okay?

They speak to each other. They have different wills, okay? Well, that's called personhood, hence three persons, one God. It's really simple. That's what the logic of it requires. Right. Okay.

That was the main thing for that question. Another one that I have, if you have time, if you don't have other callers. I got one caller, but go ahead. Okay. There's a passage that people occasionally ask you about, about Jesus healing a blind man, and he says that people are walking around like trees. Yes, I can explain that one. Well, I was going to say, I've heard your explanation, and I disagree with it, or I think that it's insufficient. So, if I may. What was my explanation?

Let's see. What was the explanation? Yes, that it's a cultural reference that people were walking around with bags of sticks to light fires, and that was what he was referencing. They would go up in the hills, and they would do, it was somebody, that's how they made a living sometimes, walk up into the hills, and they would take large bundles of twigs and stuff that they would gather further and further up into the hills and trees.

They'd bundle them up, they'd walk underneath, get underneath them, and then they'd lift themselves up, and they would walk them down the hill. Yes. So, that's what I heard you say before. Okay.

Go ahead. I understand. My objection is that I think that's missing the point of the passage. Well, I wasn't saying that was the point. I'm saying that's why he said that, when his vision was coming back, what's it mean?

Man walking about his trees. That's what, now when you understand that they did that cultural thing of taking the twigs and bundling up, that's what he was seeing. That's all it was. That's what the point is. But it also makes it sound like Jesus did an imperfect job healing him the first go around and had to do it again. Of course not. Why would you say that?

Because if he has blurred vision, seeing people that look like trees, he's not seeing people clearly enough to recognize that they aren't trees. And what makes you think that it's an imperfect thing that Jesus did the first time if it was necessary to do it a second? What makes you think it was imperfect? So, the way that you describe it makes me think that.

I don't actually think that it was imperfect. My... Well, I don't either. The thing that I want to say... Wait. Hold on. Hold on.

Do you understand that walking by the trees is a cultural thing that people would... That's why he said that, because they were having bundles on them while I was walking. He saw that. That's what you... You understand that, right? Yeah. I understand. Okay. So then, however what?

Okay. However, that does not clearly indicate... So, saying that, focusing on that point, that it's a cultural thing, does not indicate... Well, what doesn't it... You can finish your sentence.

It doesn't clearly indicate what? That Christ is a perfect healer, and in addition to that, he gives people... Wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't realize what you're doing here. Okay.

I'm going to help you out. What am I doing? You're presupposing that a perfect healer must mean that, when the first time he did it, was it. That's what you're assuming. Words that say that in Scripture, that a perfect healer must do it right the first time, and how do you know it wasn't exactly what Jesus wanted, and then, the second time, was even more? There's a reason for it. There's a reason it would happen twice. I don't know what the reason is yet.

Okay. So, the reason might have been to indicate, as is referenced in the Scriptures of the Psalm... Psalm number one is probably the best example, that people are likened to trees frequently throughout the Scriptures, sort of like Israel is likened to a vineyard frequently throughout the Scriptures, and at the point of the passage wasn't just to show that Jesus healed the man, but that he gave him spiritual understanding in that moment, similar to how he forgives sins, that there was more going on in that moment, that it wasn't just a physical healing, but a spiritual event. Maybe. And they came to Bethsaida, and they brought a blind man to Jesus and implored him to touch him. Taking the blind man by the hand, he brought him out of the village, and after spitting on his eyes and laying his hands on him, he asked, do you see anything? And why would Jesus ask if he saw anything?

He's God in flesh. Why would he do that? Because he always asks.

He always has people perform some sort of proof that what he did was effective. Not necessarily. No, no, no, no. Hold on. Why would he... If Jesus is God, he knows all things.

Why are you saying, do you see anything? Did Jesus not know? No, he knew. Come on.

Okay. So then he's asking him to do something, right, for the own benefit, as well as the benefit of others. He looked up, the man looked up and said, I see men, for I see them like trees walking around. That's what he was seeing, these guys doing that job.

Then he laid his hands on his eyes, looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly. He said to him, do not even enter the village. Okay. So I don't see any problem there. There's no imperfect anything there. If you want to say it's imperfect, you have to say that Jesus had to do it this right way the first time. Had to be complete the first time. That's how it has to be.

Well, where's that in Scripture? Okay. You there?

Yeah, I'm here. Yeah. I understand. I apologize. You're right. I apologize.

So you're assuming a certain thing must be done a certain way. Well, I'm thinking, were there any other healings where Jesus had to do it twice? I don't know about twice, but there's one where it says he couldn't do any miracles there because of people's lack of faith. Wait a minute. How is that possible if he's God?

His lack of faith, their lack of faith meant he couldn't do anything? There's more going on here. That's when you see stuff like this. You have to be careful not to draw a conclusion too quickly because this is what people often, sometimes what they'll do is they'll make a conclusion about something and they'll say that's the conclusion. That's what it is. Then they find something else and they make it fit. That's not a healthy thing to do.

It might be, you have to run about ideas. Why did Jesus do it twice? Is there another place where it's twice? Is there or not?

What about the place where it said he couldn't do any faith? How does that affect what's going on? You have to ask all kinds of questions before you draw conclusions. Hey, hold on, buddy. We don't have to break, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. Oh, did we lose him?

Oh, I think we did because I can't seem to, he's not there. I was going to ask a little bit of research during the break about this issue of the miracle. I don't see any other place in scripture where Jesus did something twice. However, here's a question. See, his question's a really good question, but I would not, I've learned enough to not jump to a conclusion too quickly because I'd say why did they have to do it twice?

Now, I could immediately come up with an idea, but I don't know if the idea's good. So, you could look around. You could see Jesus cleansed the temple twice.

He would say, truly, truly, I say to you. That's two, two, repeat. In Genesis 22, 11, God said to Abraham, Abraham, Abraham. He said it twice. The Bible says by two witnesses, a truth is established. That's that, you know, two, twice. What's going on with two times? What I would do is do a research on why two or twice or repeat if something occurs.

What's the purpose about it? And see if there's a pattern there and then go back and look at the text and say, is there something broader going on here that the Holy Spirit is putting in there? And that's something we would have to ask. I say this because I don't want people too frequently to just come up with an idea and say, oh, I figured it out. It took me three seconds.

I got to figure it out. And this is why, you know, like he cleansed the temple twice because he failed the first time. Really? How do you know? How do you know it wasn't done two different times a year apart, whatever apart? You know, why would it have to be done twice? Two judgments on the temple? And you know, you see, you got to look, you got to learn. And that's what I say to people is don't be so quick.

Do some practice and do searches on Bible programs and see if you can find out what the pattern is that God's talking about. All right, let's try this. Let's see, which one do I get to? Let's try Isaac. Hey, Isaac, welcome. You're on the air. Thanks, Ted and Tom.

Matt, enjoy your show. It's quite interesting. Thank you. Yeah. So there's an ongoing debate among some friends here about marriage, biblical marriage.

Okay. And so this scenario, there's a man and a woman. They've known each other for quite some time. And they date. And the man decides to ask the woman's father if he can ask his daughter in marriage and the father says yes.

The man buys the woman a ring and asks her to marry and she says yes. Okay. Okay. Well, they consummate the relationship. After marriage? After that. After marriage.

After the proposal and the acceptance of the ring and the she agrees to. Yes. Yeah, then they have sinned.

They have sinned. Okay. Well, so the thing of it is, I mean, looking in the Isaac and Rebecca story in the Bible, you know, I don't see where there's a ceremony. I don't see a license. I don't see anything, you know, like that.

And after doing some research in the United States, I mean, marriage licenses only started in the 1920s or so. So I was just, you know, trying to figure this out. All right. A marriage is a, normally speaking, it's a covenant.

Okay. And a covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties. So when I married my wife, I made a covenant with her and the covenant sign that she and I both bear upon our bodies as our wedding rings. So we made a covenant with each other. We also made a covenant with God that we will be faithful before God and we'll trust God, et cetera. We also made a covenant with the people who are watching and that we will not, you know, I won't go to bed with the other women. I won't, I'm not going to provide financially for the other women like I do with my wife, you know, things like that. And so marriage is a three-way covenant between the couple, the couple and God, the couple and the witnesses.

Okay. So look at it that way. And the covenant occurs when the ceremony occurs and that's when it's ratified. A covenant is either written or spoken and covenants have signs. This is the biblical way. There's the blood of the eternal covenant in Hebrews 1320. It comes out of God's character, his nature.

That's it. And so it's manifested in the blood of Christ. That's the covenant sign, the manifestation of that eternal covenant, which is also called the new covenant. And so communion has a covenant sign and Abraham, his circumcision was a covenant sign. Okay.

And Noah, it was the rainbow, et cetera. Okay. So when we, if I asked my wife to marry me, we said, yes, we're then engaged, but we're not married. We're engaged to be married.

We're not married. And sexual intercourse is between a married couple, a husband and a wife. So flat out, any couple that's engaged and engaged in sexual intercourse is committing sin. It's sinful.

They need to repent. Okay. Okay. All right.

Appreciate your response. Okay. And if anybody wants to talk to me about it, call me up and I will politely correct them and urge them to follow the truth. Now here's something I'm going to just, before you go, I want to say something here.

I've got a break coming up, but I've counseled couples before where premarital counseling, they want me to do the wedding. And I say, that's fine. But if we do this, we have to do pre-mental counseling. I'm asking you a lot of questions. Okay. And then we do this. And then after a while we're talking about, I said, okay, have you been messing around with each other before you're married?

Yes. And I say, okay, I'm giving the short version because we're on, you know, I do it tactfully, but the short version is as I say, okay, here's how it's going to work. It's going to work. You, from this moment on, you don't fornicate until, you don't know until, you don't fornicate period. And then you only have relations after you're married. And if you fall in fornication before then we postpone the marriage six months and we go through counseling. And so that's, that's the agreement that you'll make with me. And if you don't agree, find someone else.

That's what I'm telling you. And then I say to the, to the woman, I say, this man's supposed to protect you. This man is supposed to provide for you. He's agreed to marry you. And yet he's taking from you what does not belong to him because you're not married. Why would you trust him? Why would you trust such a man to be your provider, protector, and leader if he's willing to take you to bed and fornicate with you and devalue you before you get married?

Then I turn to him and I say the same thing. Why would you trust her? She's willing to do this.

You two better think about what you're doing. That's a short version. Okay.

It sounds a lot tougher, but I get them to see what it is. I say, do you repent of this? And they said, yeah. I said, do you remember?

Because, because I'm serious. I'll just say that wedding's off and for six months postponed. And they go, okay. And I say, you honor each other. That's what men are supposed to do.

Not satisfy themselves and use excuses to go to bed with their wife. Well, at least I love her. We're engaged. So it's okay. No, it's not. And men need to stop.

They need to repent. And I'll say this to everybody out there before the break. If you are living with a woman, you're not going to bed with her. You're not engaged to her. I mean, well, you're not married to her.

Excuse me. You need to get out of that environment right away, right now. You just say, but just follow God first. You're going to follow God first. You pack your stuff up and you say I'm gone. And you go stay at a friend's house. And then you go to church counseling and you get it right. That's what you got to do. But too many men and women are compromising the word of God, compromising sexual purity.

And if they can't trust each other before marriage, why are they going to trust each other after marriage? Okay. Well, it sounds like solid wisdom. It is wisdom. And I teach what's called the theology of marriage. And I teach it biblically. And when I do it, I teach with the doctrine of the Trinity. Marriage is a reflection of the Trinitarian communion where a man and a woman, two separate persons become one flesh.

How's that possible? God is three persons and one being. There's this reflection in marriage of unity. And if a man and a woman are virgins when they get married to become one flesh, so to speak, how do they lose their virginity if they're one flesh?

That's a play on words. But the idea is to show the symbolism of purity. And that's how it's supposed to be and take our marriages seriously. And I start with the men. Too many men are not doing it.

They're not taking their marriages seriously. I agree. That's right. Well, I can talk about it. All right. All right.

Well, thank you so much. All right. Have a blessed evening. You too. God bless.

All right. Let's get on there with Nelson from Bakersfield. Hey, Nelson, welcome.

You're on the air. God bless, Matt. Blessings. Wow.

That's a lot of great wisdom about marriage right there. Wow. Oh, it is.

And there's a break. Sorry, man. And it is worse. Not because I'm saying it, but because that's what the Bible teaches.

And I'm just telling people what the Bible says. That's it. Hey, brother. I'll be right back.

Okay. Folks, be right back if you want to give me a call. 877-207-2276 be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Let's get back on the air with Nelson as soon as the guy hits it back because we have this new system and I can't get it back on after I put them on hold. Nelson, are you there?

Yes, I'm here. There we go. All right, Nelson. Okay.

So where were we? I just want to, real quick, I just wanted to just before my questions, wanted to just share something about marriage that I heard from Tony Evans. This is pretty, really good. He was saying that he, of course, he has a lot of, gives a lot of marriage or counseling as well. And he said that he was counseling a couple and the, the fiance, the lady had, I think over a dead over $5,000, I'm sorry, $5,000, $50,000 of debt.

Wow. And he was talking to him, well to them both about it. And he said, Oh, don't worry. Me and her, we talked about it, that she's going to pay that. He turned around, looked at her and said, don't marry him.

Wait a minute. She had $50,000 in debt and they talked about it. And who said what? The fiance, the male said, basically that the couple talked about it and they both decided the couple, they're going to get married, that, that the wife was going to pay that debt because that was her debt. And so Tony Evans looked at her after the, the, the, the, the fiance said that she looked at her and said, don't marry him.

I would say to him, don't marry her. Um, but, uh, because if she's got 50 grand in debt, well, first of all, what's the reason for it. That's one of the things you got to know. Why, why is that such a debt there? Is it because she, uh, you know, was in an accident and, and had to live on credit cards while she's making ends meet? Maybe she's got a kid or two, you know, medical, I don't know the whole context of it, but it's always important. And then you have to decide if, cause when you, when you get married, each of your debts becomes the others. And, um, so, you know, I wouldn't say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I always want to know the full of the thing. If she's got 50 grand in debt and it, and it's because she bought a lot of shoes and makeup and clothes, that would be a huge problem. And it's a warning flag and it's a, I wouldn't be involved with someone who has that kind of a problem because it'll exist inside the marriage. And so if he's willing to take her debt on, depending on the reason she has that debt, then that's between them. But, uh, you know, if, if she said, you know, look, I was, I was out of work for six months due to car accident, I had to live on credit cards, you know, and, and she, he can, and she can prove it. Well, okay. Things happen, you know, then he decides to pay that off though. That's his business. Uh, then I would say, you know, she's trying to be as responsible as, as, as, as she can to provide, but it just depends what it is.

I would say that that's what I would, I would look at first, you know. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, um, my, my question is, uh, well, just a little background, um, right now, every Tuesdays, we're going to the Bible, we're going through the book of Exodus.

And, uh, we been in chapter 25, 26 and 27, and we've been stuck on 26 for about three weeks already. And about the tabernacle. And so I just wanted to, I mean, it's just amazing.

Wow. I just wanted to take, uh, ask for your intake of the tabernacle. And if you have an article, a few articles of it. Well, I, I haven't written an article on it specifically the depth that it deserves because more is written on the tabernacle than any other topic in the Bible.

And it's page after page, after page, chapter after chapter, after chapter. And, uh, if you know, I don't know if you know this, but, uh, the tabernacle has, uh, there are 12 tribes of Israel that later that were around the, uh, the, the tabernacle, which is a dwelling place of God. Okay.

And the Holy of Holies. And, um, so when you, and I've got the information, uh, I think it's on CARM or whatever, if, if you really want the information, I can send it to you. You can email me for it. Anybody can.

I'll, I'll email it to you. A PowerPoint slide I have. Anyway, the thing is that the 12 tribes of Israel were camped around the, the tabernacle and four groups of three. And so it counts the, you, if you add up the number of men in each group and each, you know, group of three, and then you put them out from the tabernacle, you just put them out north, east, west, south, you get a cross. Wow.

Yeah. And what's interesting is that the four, um, tribes, uh, the four groups had four flags or banners, lion, ox, eagle, and man. And Ezekiel is a four-faced creature, lion, ox, eagle, and man. Revelation is a four-faced creature, lion, ox, eagle, and man.

The four gospels were secretly known as the lion, ox, eagle, and man. Yep. So, uh, the tabernacle, you know, why is it that in a tabernacle, for example, gold is on the inside of the pillars and wood is on the outside?

You know why that's that, like that? The, the, you said the wood? The wood's on the outside, the gold's on the inside. Yes.

Why? Um, well, as we were studying it, uh, and I think the wood you're talking about is these, these little planks, right, that they fit together to lift up the tabernacle. Why was the gold on the inside and the wood on the outside? Okay. Gold is divinity. Wood is humanity. Yeah.

It's pointing ultimately to Christ. Okay. There's a book you could get called, uh, Made According to Pattern. And that's by C. W. Sleming. Yeah.

C. W. Sleming. S. L. E. M. M. I. N. G. Made According to Pattern. And, uh, so I have the one from 56.

I think I might have the one from 2007. And I, I've had it for a long time. I've just not, um, gone through it because I would like to write a whole series of articles on it and just extract information, give proper credit where it's due. Say, here's this, here's this, take a look at that, you know.

Uh, just to break it down so people can get to it quickly and easily. But that's it. Um, Made According to Pattern. We'll take a good look at that kind of stuff. Okay. Okay.

I'll check that book out. Well, thank you very much. And also, how many doors were there in the Tabernacle? How many doors? One.

There's only one. Yeah. That's right.

And it faced the rising sun. Uh-huh. Jesus is the door. Yeah.

Yeah. All of it points to Christ because he says in Luke 20, in, uh, John 539, you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but it is these that bear witness of me. Now, the Tabernacle is in the wilderness and God says in Exodus 25, 8, build a Tabernacle among my people so I can dwell among them.

Whoa. He, so he wants to dwell among his people. That's what the Tabernacle is. When you go to John 1, 1, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. Verse 14, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The word dwelt is skeine in the Greek, which can also be translated as Tabernacle.

Tabernacle. Yes. Wow. Yes. It's amazing.

Yeah. I mean, it was, it was just, it was a great study. It was like, wow, it's just, there's so much, but it's just so much. I mean, I am blind.

I know I mentioned this before and I'm trying to get a picture of my mind, how this Tabernacle will look with the inside and outside. It just amazing. Yeah. Oh yeah.

It's, it's something else and transportable. And I've read through stuff before, but it's been so many years. I hardly remember any of the typologies and the things that are hidden in there, but it's there. Right.

You're making me want to read it now just to review. Yeah. Yeah. And just real quick before I go, um, do you know what happened to the Tabernacle?

Nope. Uh, I don't know what happened to it if they, because the, see the Ark of the Covenant is the, with the mercy seat on top of it as the footstool of God. And so it was a presence of God, Shekinah presence. So they moved it into the, the permanent Tabernacle, not the Tabernacle, excuse me, the permanent temple. And so I would just assume that what they did with the other parts, they just took it apart because it was no longer sanctified since it was, um, no longer of the divine place of God. And the reason it was a Tabernacle before, because the people of Israel had to wander in a desert and various things. They weren't in their homeland yet. You know, in the Tabernacle, the, uh, the, the, I think it's Matthew 27, I think where the veil was torn, you know, it was torn from top to bottom.

It was like four inches thick. There was no, no way anybody could have gone in there to tear it. Which is interesting because when the Mormons, I talked to the Mormons, they have in their Tabernacles, their temples, they're supposed to be rebuilt of the Tabernacle, the wilderness, the temple of Israel. And then they have veils in their temples. And I ask them, why would you put a veil back when God is the one who destroyed the veil at the death of Christ?

Why do you put it back? The Jews, when a Tabernacle veil was torn from top to bottom, when Christ was crucified, symbolizing no more barrier between the holy place and the holy of holies, the holy place of God, we can go straight through the blood of Christ. We don't need a prophet. We don't need a Tabernacle now.

We don't need a temple. And I say, why do you put back what God destroyed? And they can't answer the question. That's what cults do. That's what, you know, false religions. They don't understand theology. They don't understand the depth of God's word. And so the people who start cults have a minuscule understanding of biblical truth and then they build on the minuscule and then they look for anything else to make it fit. And then they don't teach their people what the truth is, the depth of the truth.

And so the people become deceived. That's what happens. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like yesterday I was talking to, when I got picked up to go to church, I got picked up by J-Dub and, um, I could tell she was a J-Dub. I heard that even saying that because she's talking about the name of God.

And this is from that. And I knew she was a J-W. And, um, she was just saying about how paradise is and so on and so forth. And I just asked her the question, how are you justified?

She never could answer the question. That's right. Because in, uh, they're required to keep the requirements of the law February 15th, I think it is, 1989, I should remember, 1976, April 1st.

I'm trying to remember what volume it is, but, uh, keeping the requirements of the law. All right, man. I mean, I shared her the gospel and everything and, uh, I had to because it just, I have family members or Jehovah's Witnesses.

I can't get off this bus without sharing her the gospel, the truth. And so I did. And, and so hopefully, um, God does what it does best. And so. Good for you. Good for you.

Praise God, man. All right. Okay.

Well, thank you very much. Okay. We will talk to you later.

All right. Now let's get on the air with Sam from someplace. Sam, welcome to be on the air.

Maybe not. Sam. Only got about a minute and a half and a lot of feedback. Don't hear anything.

Not working. So got a bad connection, Sam. I don't know if you can hear me, uh, but I certainly can't hear you. Let's get to Marsha from Greensboro. Marsha, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, Matt, I have a question about the, um, parable of the Tim virgins. So in Matthew 25 and 10, it says, and while they went to buy the bridegroom came and they that were ready went in with him, the marriage and the door was shut. So do you think that that, um, point also to the rapture in that it's like instantaneous that there's, I, I don't see that as being a rapture oriented verse. Uh, I see it as the issue of, so it could be, you know, I'm not saying I'm right though, but I, I see it more as the issue of, of, of, uh, justification, but we're out of time. So call that tomorrow. All right. I will.

God bless Marshall. Let's talk about it tomorrow. Hey folks, we're out of time.

There's the music. I'm out of here. May the Lord bless you. And by his grace, we're back on there tomorrow. And we'll talk to you.