Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276 and we can blab.

We've got nobody waiting right now, but I want to hear from you, so give me a call. Let's see, get this over here like that and move that right there. Oh yeah, I've got to get the rumble thing going. Here we go, I'm in rumble now.

That was easy to do. I've got a nice little short link and everything I can do that with. Okay, a lot going on, busy day, and I'm hoping that you want to give me a call if you're new to this show. I answer questions, difficult questions, or to try to, regarding the Bible, Christianity, theology, logic, apologetics, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity, Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy. Did I say UFOs and the occult? And all kinds of stuff that we talk about here and answer questions.

So if that sounds good and you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. And if you're not so sure about a guy on a radio named Slick and it's my real name for the newbies, then you can just listen in and check things out. Now Fridays, Fridays we do a hate mail and I enjoy hate mail. There's something mentally wrong with me.

I've been told by lots of people. I guess that's why I like hate mail so much because I don't know what it is. I've always enjoyed it, been doing radio for 20 years, five days a week for 18 years. And over the years I've read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hate mails and wacko mails.

We have a slight degradation there with the wacko-ness. And I enjoy them and I analyze them, you know, and what they say. So I'm going to read some, okay?

I've unearthed and we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Okay, so I'm going to enjoy this. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Oh, by the way, I plan to be down in Salt Lake City area on the last weekend of the month, on the last Saturday and then the first Sunday of October.

So that weekend right there. So I hope to be at a church in, I'm not speaking of anything, just going to go, in Provo. And if somebody, Laura, were to give me the information in the private chat area, I can mention it too.

It's not a big deal, you know, where to go and if you want to say hi, go to lunch afterwards or something, I don't know. Whatever, just something to do. All right. All right, Rumble's working. If you want to watch me do the show, which is, oh, it's really exciting, then all you're going to do is go to rumble.com forward slash Matt Slick live.

Matt Slick live and then that'll do that. All right, so it's City on a Hill in Provo, 105 East, 105 North. Ooh, interesting. That's confusing. 105 East, 105 North, City on a Hill Church. It's on the corner. Or is it just off the corner? It's just right next to it.

It is the corner, but the church is kind of set off back in the corner a little bit. And good people there. And so I plan to be there with, believe it or not, Charlie Spine, Dave Kimball. They are board of directors with CARM, and let's see what else. I've been doing ministry with them for over 40 years. You know them over 40 years. They're good guys.

So they'll be down there, too. How about that? Nice little gathering. So there you go. All right. All right, now since there's nobody calling right now, which sometimes happens on a Friday early, what I'm going to do is jump into some hate mail. Let's see. Here's one. I'm praying for you, Mr. Slick, as I'm praying for the lost who stumble across this site.

Wow, that's awesome. If you were an example of Christ's love, who would want to be like you? Well, no one should be like me. Don't look at me as an example of Christ's love. Are you kidding? Man, I mean, you're trusting a reverend named Slick on the radio as an example of Christ's love? Oh, come on.

You can't do that. You've got to look at Christ as an example of what Christ's love is, not me. And he says, it is people like you who are responsible for the decline of faith among our young. You wreak hate, and I discern evil. This is good stuff. You see, now there are some people who are talented when it comes to writing hate mail, and there's people who are not talented when it comes to writing hate mail. If I were to do no talent is zero, just none. And ten is really good, talented hate mail, I'd give this about a six.

It's up there, six, maybe seven. Okay, that's good. You wreak hate, and I discern evil. J.D. said the word evil.

You've got to see it right, because you know it's important. Satan himself is governing your website, and you are a willing puppet. May God have mercy on your soul. Do not use one word of my message for email. Oops.

Well, too late for that. Nothing that is of me or from me will be polluted by you and your efforts to send souls to hell. Sounds to me like he's in a cult, and he got upset by something I said. So, actually, I wrote back, and I wrote back, and I went, wow, that's really something. Do you have any serious comments to make besides hatred and condemnation? Why don't you give me an example of something you disagree with? And it's his response. I've got this response right here. Here's his example. Sure, an example.

Your response, woo, he sure shut me down, didn't he? Whoa, that was good. Yeah, so sometimes, you know, the vacuous nature of certain things just doesn't work.

That one doesn't work. You know, it's just not that good. I wish people could do better.

You know, I wish they would do better. All right, let's see, Galatians 1.10. I'm now trying to win the approval of people.

Am I now? Okay, am I now trying to win the approval of people or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

That's Galatians 1.10. Anyone who needs the approval of people like Matt Slick does most certainly cannot be a servant of Christ. Well, Matt spends his life making accusations against Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics. No, I don't spend my life doing it.

This is part of my life I spend doing that. Mormons are not Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians.

And if you believe official Roman Catholic theology, you're not Christian as well. So, Mr. Kidd, and you guys, if you could not use the different colored things, it's really quite distracting. They'll know what I'm talking about. I see these different things. It's like, what is it?

I see colors moving on my upper left monitor. And it's like, what? A distraction. All right, so it says Matt spends his life making accusations against Mormons. Mormons are not Christians.

I'm telling you, I'm sorry. You know, Mormonism teaches God came from another world and he has a goddess wife and they have relations in heaven, make spirit offspring, babies that inhabit human bodies. And with a full 10% tithe of your income in the church, you get the ability to go to the temple and you get a temple to recommend all that.

You go to the temple, you get underwear, you learn secret handshakes and hugs so that maybe you can become a god of your own planet. That's not Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses, they teach that there is no such thing as a trinity, just like the Mormons. Mormons teach three gods, not one god and three persons, but three gods.

Jehovah's Witnesses deny their trinity, deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, deny his physical resurrection from the cross, and add work to salvation, just like the Mormons do. I mean, this is not Christian. Catholics, official.

Remember, I said official. Roman Catholic theology is not Christian. It's anti-Christ. And it is. You can call me up and you can disagree. But that's what it is. It's not Christian because paragraph 2068 of the Catholic Catechism says that you obtain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.

Ooh, so you are works-oriented. That's a false gospel. Anyway, so he goes on. He says, but he cannot even look at the plank in his own eye without crying. Without crying.

Look, there's a plank in my eye. I'm crying. Oh, wait a minute, there's a comma. There's more.

Without crying. Oh, I get it. I get it.

Quote, you're ridiculing me and making accusations against me. Boo-hoo. This is a seven. This is good. It's got good mockery. And it's a good seven as far as hate mail goes. I like this one. So since he cannot see his own sins and feel remorse for them enough to repent, then he's not qualified to remove the speck from the eyes of others.

Matthew 7, 1 through 5. Well, I hope this individual would be so kind as to call me up and say exactly what it is that he's got a problem with. Okay? I would appreciate that. All right. Hey, we have some calls. Let's get to, let's see, Jesse from Vegas.

All right. Hey, Jesse, welcome. You're on the air. Hello.

Can you hear me, Matt? Yeah. Yep. So I've called in before.

Thank you for taking my call again. So my question is, would guardians be Trinity? So lately I've been, you know, really reading a lot of scripture and seeing a lot of videos, but I had a discussion with one of my buddies who's got the pastor, Christian pastor, and he was, you know, mentioning about oneness versus the Trinity. And before I didn't really even look into what the Trinity was, and I looked at, I did three or four hours of research yesterday. And honestly, I think that there's a better argument in my opinion when it comes to oneness than, you know, the Trinity.

Wait a minute. Are you affirming the Trinity or affirming oneness? I'm starting to tilt more towards one because I hadn't really looked up the definition of what Trinitarians talk about, which, you know, they say that God is the son of the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. And if you look up the definition of those, of those two words distinct and then person, I wouldn't necessarily agree with the fact that they're distinct person because that means that they're separate, but then they say, okay, they're separate, but they're united. So, I mean, it's kind of like, How about if I help you out? I got you. How about if I help you out? Because oneness theology is cultic.

It's not Christian. All right. So I can help you out. I can explain why oneness is heretical and leads to damnation if you follow it logically. Okay. Explain it. I can explain what the Trinity is. All right.

And why we use the word person. Are you, are you there? Yeah, I'm listening.

All right. Now you've got a lot of noise background there, background noise, but let me explain something. So maybe you could mute. I mean, you got to turn up your, close your door or your window or something.

You got a lot of road noise back there. So the Trinity is that there's one God in three distinct simultaneous persons. Now, the analogy I'd like to give is time. Time has distinct aspects, past, present and future. But each one of them is by nature time. They're not three different times. There's just three different aspects of what that thing called time is. Now, this no analogy is perfect, but this will show you the idea of distinction and yet identity. And that their identity is that they are of time, but they have distinction. We can recognize separateness between them. So you with me so far?

Does that make sense a little bit? Yeah, I'm listening. All right.

Okay. And so when we say person, the reason we say person is because personhood has to do with self-awareness, awareness of others, having a will, can love, can hate, can think, you know, things like that. And so we see that the father speaks to the son and the son speaks to the father.

So by definition, they're different persons. And we'll get back. We're going to break. So hold on and we'll get into this some more and spend some time on it because it's really important. Okay. So hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2277. We'll be right back. Hey, Jesse, you still there? Yes, sir.

All right, man. So the word person has a theological significance and it's a necessary conclusion based on the observation because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit speak to each other, recognize each other, recognize others. So that logically requires a distinction between persons. Does that make sense so far? Yeah. I'm understanding the word distinct, but then the word just person is the one that's a little bit harder too. So we put together all of this. Yeah. And that makes sense. So let me explain a little bit of history why that word is used.

What happened was when the early theologians were trying to figure this out, they look at the idea of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit speaking to each other. So that shows distinction because you and I are speaking to each other, hence distinction. I don't talk to myself and say, hey, man, how are you doing? I'm doing fine. Well, I was great. What did you do yesterday? Well, I went over. You don't do that.

That's not healthy, not normal. So with God, there's a distinction because, for example, the Father sent the Son. He didn't send himself. He sent the Son. Jesus says he was sent by the Father.

He speaks to the Father and the Holy Spirit speaks and has a will. So the early theologians, what they did was they borrowed a word that was used in acting. There was a word, I think it's Latin, persona, and persona was a mask on a stick because back in the day, the men were the only ones who were allowed to do acting. So they'd have three or four men do three or four parts each, and they would take a mask on a stick, like a king, and put the mask over and have a hole in the mouth and the eyes were, and they would do that part.

Maybe he might do a woman's position and take a woman's mask and speak to it. That mask was called a persona. So the theologians adopted that word and applied it to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It doesn't just mean mask, but it has this whole idea of representation and differentiation. So they used it, and they said, well, that's one God, but there's three will be called persona, and then the word person came out of it. But when you and I use the word normally, we mean an individual separate being, but that's not how it was originally used in the context of the Trinity. It was persons to show the centrality of self-awareness, awareness of others, having a will, can speak, so you and yours and me and mine, and there's three of those, and each is called God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, hence the Trinity. That's how it's arrived at, okay?

Right, right. So in your opinion, why do you feel it'll be problematic to say that there's one God, a singular divine spirit, with no distinction of persons, but a God who can manifest himself and close it to the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? What do you think would be wrong with believing in that position? Yeah, it's unbiblical.

So let me show you something. This is Ephesians 1-4, just as He chose us in Him, He and in Him. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Who's the He, and who's the chosen, and who are those who are in Him? He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Well, if you study your Bible, you'll see that we were chosen in Christ. So the Father chose and gave to the Son, the elect. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This means God the Father's choosing is from before the foundation of the world. How do you do that if God is one person?

I'll show you something else. Jesus says this in John 6-37. So this is what I do with the oneness people, and I trip them up with this because it does trip them up. Now let me step aside and introduce a concept for them. If they're going to say that God is one person, then I ask them, is Jesus one person? And they're going to say, well, yes. Then who was Jesus praying to? If He's a person, He's praying to the Father, who's He praying to? This trips them up.

So what they like to do is say that the humanity of Christ was praying to the divinity of Christ. Have you heard this yet? Yep. Okay. And that doesn't work, and there's reasons. I'm going to have to get technical here, but I'll do that slowly. I'll enter into it slowly.

Before I do that, I want to show you something. If it's the case that as the oneness people teach that Jesus is essentially two persons, a divine person and a human person in the one body of Christ, that's called Nestorianism. And the body of Christ, the corpus, the thing He walked around in, are two separate persons, a divine person and a human person, and that they alternate speaking and working. And this way, the flesh can pray to the Father, who's in heaven. This is the one standard oneness response.

Now, check this out. I asked them this. I said, Jesus says in John 637, all that the Father gives Me, and I'll say, who's the Me? And they'll say, well, it's the human nature. Because if it's a divine nature, then all the Father gives to Me, which is the Father, which is the God, it doesn't make sense.

So I say, okay, who is it? Is it the divine nature or the human nature? And they'll say the human nature. All that the Father gives Me to the human part will come to Me, the human part.

But when it comes to Me, the human part, I will certainly not cast out. For I came down from heaven. Now who's talking? Who's talking? Is it the divine or the human?

Because He says, I came down from heaven. Well, that can't be the human part. Now can it? It has to be the divine part. But it's the human part that was talking. So now all of a sudden, in oneness, you have the two persons switching back and forth.

Now they're hopscotching. Who's talking? Notice what He says.

Notice this. All that the Father gives Me, human person, will come to Me, the human person. When it comes to Me, human person, I, human person, will not cast out. For I, the divine person, came down from heaven. Not to do My own will.

Well, what? That had to be the human person will. Because the divine will would be fine.

Not to do My own will, human person, but the will of Him who sent Me. That's the Father who sent Me, which is the human, right? See how confusing it gets? Do you see how confusing it is? Now I do this with the oneness, and they just don't know what to do with this.

And there's even a worse problem. I'll tell it to you in a second, why it invalidates the atoning sacrifice. I'll tell you why in a second here. But this is what He says in verse 39 of John 6. This is the will of Him who sent Me. That all that He's given Me, I lose nothing. The Me and the I are the same person.

That's what's going on in the text. Oneness messes us up badly. Now, hold on, because I'm going to show you another problem, a severe problem in oneness that leads to damnable heresy when they get back. Okay, so hold on. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Now, I was going to get back on with Jesse, but I can't access.

All of a sudden, it went dark. So maybe if Keith's listening, he can try. Oh, there we go. Let's try it. Hey, Jess, are you still there?

I'm in. All right, man. Okay, now, the problem I've been explaining is that in oneness, because they don't have a Trinity, therefore the one person has to become Christ, but now they have a problem of differentiation of who was sent by who.

So because of this problem, because they don't have a Trinitarian doctrine, have a oneness doctrine, now what leads down the road is more heresy, more error, and the error is now in the body of Christ are two persons. Okay, you with me? Yeah. All right, now, here's a question. When Jesus was crucified, which person died on the cross according to oneness? Which person?

Are you there? Yeah, yeah. I haven't really dove deep into all those answers yet. Yeah, well, it's a heretical view, okay, and I've dealt with it for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.

So here, let me help you out. In oneness, it has to be only the human nature that died. Now, even in Trinitarianism, that's correct.

However, there's a distinction. In oneness, because the body of Christ contains two persons, then only the human person died. But if that's the issue, then how is the sacrifice of divine value? It can't be, because only the human nature died. If that's the case, then how does God say, look upon me, whom they have pierced, in Zechariah 12.10?

Because he was not pierced. Because in oneness, which is Nestorianism, in dealing with Christ, it's two persons. Not one person with two natures, but two persons, two distinct natures, and only the human nature died, and therefore only the human person died, and therefore the sacrifice is not divine. And therefore, we're dead in our sins.

Because the prophecy is, God will be the one who will be crucified. So oneness can't deal with this. And I've challenged the number one oneness guy in the country to discussions. I met him in person when he came.

He was out here locally in Idaho about a year ago. I had pictures with him. And I said, let's have a debate. He didn't want to do a debate. Let's do a written discussion. And then he said he would, then he said he wouldn't.

Or he said he didn't think about it. I've challenged the oneness guys to some stuff, but they don't want to do it. Because these are the issues I want to go through, and they can't deal with them. So let me explain something. Let's go to Trinitarianism.

Trinitarianism solves all kinds of problems. So let me back up even further into oneness. If God is one person, then who's he having fellowship with forever ago before the universe? Nobody. He's not having fellowship with anybody. Who's he loving? He's not loving anyone. Because there's no one to love. He's by himself.

But wait a minute. The nature of personhood, as we're made in God's image, is that God is loving and has fellowship and communion. This is part of his intimacy. In the Trinity, this would be for forever. God doesn't need anything other than himself. And for the inter-Trinitarian communion of persons and distinction and the one essence, one being, who is God, who is existing as three separate persons.

All right. So then there's no problem with personhood, there's no problem with fellowship, there's no problem with love. But in oneness, the only way for God to love anybody is if something other than himself is created. Therefore, the nature of God's love is now dependent and the fulfillment of it is now dependent on something else outside of himself.

That's a problem. What was God doing for forever ago? Because I call it the static mind problem. In oneness, it would mean then that he had all knowledge forever. Well, that would mean he had all knowledge of his own decisions from forever ago. Can he make any decisions at that point?

Well, how does he? Because he already knows what he's going to decide, so when it's time to decide, he's already decided, how does that work? In the Trinity, that's not a problem because there's a distinction between them and they can have that communion. Yet, they're all of the one essence and the one ultimate mind in God.

It's paradoxical, but it solves the problem. Now, let's look at the incarnation. The second person of the Trinity became one of us and was in union with the divine, with the human nature. Now, there's a doctrine. There's a doctrine that's very important here called the communicatio ideo matum.

That means the communication of the properties. So, Jesus is one person, not two, like the oneness say, and I trip him up, is he one person? Yes, he is, and I ask him all these questions, and then they go Nestorian. They say, well, there's actually two persons in the body.

Okay? So, let's say in Christian Trinitarianism, we can have the second person of the Trinity become one of us. And in the person of Christ, the single person are two distinct natures, but the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person. So, Jesus says, I am thirsty. Jesus says, I will be with you always. So, Jesus is saying, I'm thirsty. He's claiming the attributes of humanity.

I'll be with you always. He's claiming the attributes of divinity. It's one person who's talking, not as the Nestorian oneness position is, goes back and forth, where the divine nature is talking and the human nature is talking, et cetera. Because in oneness, only the human nature died, and it's not a divine sacrifice. But in Trinitarianism, with the communication of the properties of both natures to that one person, the one person died on the cross. Therefore, the one person is of divine value, and therefore the sacrifice is divine. Furthermore, oneness Pentecostal, oneness United Pentecostal, oneness groups require baptism for salvation. That's a heresy. I know about 1 Peter 3.21, baptism now saves you.

And they always quote that, and they stop right there. And he says, but the verse goes on, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for clean conscience. And they forget what comes before it, because corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

Corresponding to what? Well, what's before it? Eight people entered the ark, or brought safely through the water. So what saved Noah? Eight people brought in the ark. What saved Noah? Was it the water, or was it the ark? It was the ark.

They entered through the one door. Jesus says the one door. And they were there, and they were brought through the destruction by the safety of being in the ark. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. And baptism is not just this idea of water, it's the idea of covenant identification with God. And baptism is a symbol of that covenant identity, because it replaces circumcision. It looks like it does in Colossians 2, 11, and 12. Even circumcised with a circumcision, made without hands, having been buried with him in baptism.

So Paul relates them together. Baptism is a covenant sign. And so, people who are baptized are establishing the covenant directive before God, before people. It's not the thing that wipes your sins away. Because that's done by faith. You're justified by faith, Romans 5.1.

I can go through this in depth. So oneness Pentecostal is not Christian. It teaches a false god, it denies the trinity. It denies the true incarnation, okay, in Christ. It affirms Nestorianism, which is a third heresy. It denies the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice, which is a fifth heresy, okay. And it has problems with the idea of the eternal nature of fellowship and love existing in God from before the creation of the universe.

That's a sixth problem. And it requires baptism for salvation, that's a seventh problem. And an eighth problem is it requires the baptism formula to be in Jesus' name.

Even though Jesus in Matthew 28, 18 through 20 told them how to baptize in the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit. And the reason it's in Acts, it says they baptize in Jesus' name. It's because in the culture, the phrase in Jesus' name meant by what authority.

And we know that because you go to Acts 4 verse 7 and it says, they said to Peter, what authority and whose name are you doing these things? They understood the phrase in the name of to be by the authority of. So when you get baptized in the name of Jesus, you're getting baptized by the authority that Christ has given to the people to baptize people. It's like someone saying stop in the name of the law. They have the authority to represent that law and they're saying, stop in the name of the law, okay, it's an old phrase. And so you get baptized in the name of Jesus by his authority.

And when you do that, you say, baptize you in the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit. One that's Pentecostal is not Christian. It's a cult. Teaches a false God, false Christ, false gospel.

Right, right. I think the Trinity is just one of those things that's a little bit difficult to really comprehend. You kind of have to go into more detail and really kind of understand it as a whole. Look, I've written a great deal on the Trinity. Go to my website, karm.org. I don't know if you've been there. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G.

I've debated the Trinity hundreds and hundreds of times. And I've written a great deal on it and you can go there and read. And I write very quick. I'm autistic.

So me, I just want to get it done. Here's what I did. Here's the basics. Move on to the next topic. So I would recommend that you do that. Now look, we're going to break, but I want you to hold on. Unless you want to hang up, that's fine. Because I want to see if you want to follow up on anything when we get back.

If not, that's okay. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show.

I just want to give a shout out to Mr. Kidd for a $12 rant on Rumble. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it. All right, Jesse, you still there?

Yes, I'm here now. All right. So I know that you're a little confused about this. You're not so sure. But, and I don't want to say just trust me, because I don't want you to just trust me. I want you to trust the scriptures. But oneness is considered a non-Christian cult.

Because it is... Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, so I know one of the positions from the oneness is stating that if there are three distinct persons, does that mean that in heaven are you going to be able to see the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as three different persons? No.

1 Timothy 6, 16 says, The Father dwells in the unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see. Okay. All right.

Are you there? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I'm missing... Yeah. The oneness people... Look, let me tell you, okay? I've been doing this for a long, long, long time, okay? The oneness people know how to ask questions of the average person who doesn't know stuff. I'm not knocking you. I'm just saying the average person doesn't know very much theology. I get that. But I've been studying this stuff over 40 years. And so I understand what they're saying, and they're no challenge to me. And I'm not saying I'm arrogant here.

Oh, look, I'm so great. No, no, no. I don't think they're going to say. I've been through it a thousand times. I've debated some of their top people.

I've challenged some of their top people, and I'll debate them more. But, one, this is just not Christian. It denies the truth and nature of who God is. It denies a true incarnation. It denies a true efficacy of the cross. They add works to salvation, faith in Jesus, and... Come on.

You know, we just tackle this. You have to be baptized to be saved? What, are they crazy?

Where are they getting this from? 1044-238, you know, baptize your seed to the gift of the Holy Spirit. But you don't even know what that means. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the charismatic work. And that's right there in the context. And you can see it in Acts 1044-248. I mean, I know their arguments. One, this Pentecostal is not Christian. And what it is, is a clever, close to Christian appearance.

And they use stuff in scriptures, but when they come across people like myself and others who know how to answer them, then there's problems for them. You know, like in Luke 22-42, Jesus was praying to the Father, not my will, but your will be done. Who's he praying to? Well, that's the Father.

Well, where was the Father? Because he says in Matthew 6-12, our Father who art in heaven. So is the Father in heaven, or is the Father in him? Well, he's everywhere. Well, so there is just no incarnation that is there. It's just a mutual indwelling of God like he's everywhere? How is that an incarnation? Because, oh, well, he's incarnated, but he's also out there in heaven. Really? Okay, so now it's the flesh praying to the Spirit, which is himself?

Are you serious? It doesn't make any sense. So which nature died on the cross? You know, let me get into this stuff. Then we go to baptism, and then they don't study baptism very deeply, and I study it quite a bit. And I can tell you all kinds of stuff about baptism. I could even show you from Scripture where Jesus was baptized by sprinkling from Old Testament law.

When he entered into the priesthood, the means was the application of water was by sprinkling according to the law to enter into the priesthood. Jesus fulfilled it. I show it to them, and they don't know what to do with it, because they assume you've got to be baptized in the name of Jesus to get the power of the Holy Ghost, okay? And they use the word Holy Ghost like that. Holy Ghost, right?

You've heard that, right? Yeah, I think you do. It's a cult.

Non-Christian cult. So the thing about me is I was always, I was accepting the Trinity, but I hadn't really dove deep to really look at the specific words that were being used in the Trinity, where it says distinct, and then persons, you know, when I came across my friend that I mentioned, you know, I started doing more research on those two specific words, distinct and persons, and then I also watched a debate with David Bernard, which is, you know... He's the guy I challenged. Yeah, David Bernard. He said no. I challenged him. Yeah, he said no. Yeah, he had a debate with Gene Cook, and, you know, just listening to the debate, it seemed like he had more of the, of a better position based on that debate, so that's why I was really calling you to the dynasty.

Yeah, I used to know Gene Cook. I used to go to his house years ago in Southern California, and I met David Bernard, and I challenged David Bernard to a debate, and he didn't want to do it. And then I said, how about a written form? He says he's interested in that, and I think what happened is he did research on me and then backed out.

That's what I think happened. He just said, no, I don't think it's a good time right now to do this, you know. So I would be willing to fly out to a oneness church and have a debate on the nature, two debates, two nights in a row, on the Trinity and the person and work of Christ, and they can have it at their church, but it must be filmed, and it must be presented live over the Internet. And we can have that, but that's, I'm off for this, and they don't take me up on it.

Why is that? Because I know how to answer them, and I know it's difficult for them. So if they're so correct, why is it so many don't want to have these debates and don't want to do this?

Now, I have had some impromptu debates with people and had some impromptu discussions with oneness people, and you can find those in the past few years. But when it comes down to real serious stuff, they can't answer the serious questions. What they will do is deflect. This is what happens when they get cornered.

They try and change a topic, and you'll hear me say, I'll repeat the same thing over and over to them. What about this? What about this? But you didn't answer it.

What about this? Yes, I did answer it. No, you didn't. You think you did, but you didn't. Look at it again.

I get very specific. It's a heresy. It's a false teaching. And then they'll say, look at Isaiah 9-6. The name of the son will be hit the father, right?

See? Jesus is the father. And they'll say, okay. So Isaiah 9-6, and this is one of their favorite verses. A child will be born to us. A son will be given to us.

The government will rest on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. They say, see? He's the father.

I say, wait a minute. Where is he called Wonderful Counselor? He isn't. Where is he called Mighty God? He isn't. Where is he called Eternal Father? He isn't. Where is he called Prince of Peace? He isn't. His name will be called.

Why is it saying that? Well, they don't think about this. They take one of these four things and they apply it to Jesus. They say, see? He's the father. Show me where he's called Wonderful Counselor in the New Testament.

It's not like that. Because the name in that culture, like my name Matthew means gift of God. Nathan means to give. And so Methuselah means when he dies, it will come. So in Hebrew, the names mean something.

It's like American Indian names. Where's Running Bear? Oh, he's next to White Eagle down by the river. Okay? So his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. It's not saying this is his name because if his name is Jesus, this is something else going on.

They fail to see this because they have a false theology and they can only see as far as their theology requires them to. Okay? Right.

Well, that makes sense. One more thing. Let me show you something really quickly. Okay? I know I'm going a lot. I've given you a lot. But this is on my website.

This is what I do with them also. Really fast. In Exodus 6, 2 and 3, God spoke further to Moses and said to him, I am Yahweh, and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name Yahweh did not make myself known to them. So God says he appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty. Right?

No problem, right? Then I go to John 6, 46, where Jesus says, not that anyone has seen the Father except the One. It's from God.

That's talking about himself. He has seen the Father. So I ask them, were they saying God Almighty in the Old Testament? Yes. Jesus says no one's ever seen the Father. Right? That's correct.

Then who were they seeing in the Old Testament who's God Almighty, but not the Father? You see? Right. Oh, man. You can hear the wheels come off the cart at that point.

And the ways they twist scripture to get around it. Okay? No, that makes sense. I'm going to definitely check out the article on the website that you mentioned. CARM.org. Yep. CARM, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, left-hand side.

Go to the Christian Theology section and read on doctrine and theology, and you can go to the World Religion section and read up on oneness, Pentecostal. It's the same thing, okay? Okay.

Will do. I appreciate the clarification, man. All right, man.

I spent time with you because I care about you. I don't want you to get mixed up in a cult. So check out the information. Thank you. Call me back on Monday or Tuesday.

Say, hey, I read your stuff. I got questions. That's fine. All right?

Will do. Thank you very much, Mark. Have a wonderful weekend. All right, man. All right. You too, buddy. God bless.

All right. That was Jess from Las Vegas. Let's get to Jonathan from Hollywood, Florida. Hey, Jonathan.

Welcome. You're on the air. Oh, Jonathan. I clicked the right button. Oh, sorry.

I was muted. Oh, okay. Just wanted to quickly say I've been following you guys since 2006.

Well, you're breaking up. You just roboted there. You're following since 2006 and then you went into the matrix.

So what is it? What did you say? No, I was just saying that I've been following Karm since 2008. Okay. Okay.

Good. I appreciate everything you guys do. No, I think a lot of what you guys write, it really cleared up a lot of confusion I had. But my question is, I had a friend who's a Jehovah Witness, and we were going back and forth about what they believe, and I know they believe some weird stuff, but that doesn't really bother me because, to me, the main concern is do they believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the core of what Paul says? I only want to know Jesus Christ and him crucified.

That's all that really matters in the end. And I got really weird mixed results, and I kind of wanted to share them with you. And I guess my first question before I ask anything about Jehovah Witness is... We have one minute. We only have one minute on the show, so sorry. Go ahead.

You have to call back Monday, but go ahead. All right. Does someone have to understand the Trinity to be saved? No.

Okay. So then what's weird about Jehovah Witnesses is they have statements of faith created in their website, and they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he's the Christ, that he's the only name by which you're saved. They believe that he is the firstborn of all creation, that he was born perfect, sinless, born of a virgin marriage, to the power of the Holy Spirit. They believe all these things.

So if a random person told me that, I'd be like, oh, so then you're saved. But they have different definitions. They have different definitions of those terms. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. Like they just don't believe he is God the Father.

But they describe him with a lot of divine attributes. And to me it seems more like an intellectual misunderstanding. No. And so that's the case. No.

We're out of time. But man, look, they deny that he's God in flesh. They deny the Trinity. They deny his physical resurrection. They deny he's crucified on the cross.

They deny salvation by grace through faith. So call back on Monday or Tuesday and let's talk. We'll go through it slowly because, dude, we're out of time. We're out of time. Do you guys, should I call back on Monday?

Six o'clock Eastern time, Monday through Friday. Okay? Got to go. God bless. Another program powered by the Truth Network.