Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Today is August 1, 2023, so I'm live.

I was out doing some stuff for a couple of days, and that's where it is now. Okay, hey, look, if you want to give me a call, like I said, I want to hear from you, please give me a call, 877-207-2276. Now, we're using a new system, so maybe you could be the first one to give me a call on that new system to see how it's working and if it's going to work, or if I do it right.

I know it works already, but I have to be the one giving it a new try, so it's up to you guys. Let's see, I think that should be good, and yeah, let's see, there we go. Okay, come on.

All right, good, we've got four open lines, 877-207-2276. What I'm going to do is, here we go, first call, let's get to Ed from Virginia. Ed, welcome, you're on the air. Uh-oh, here we go. Ed, are you there? I don't hear anything. Let's get that going.

It should be working. All right, those of you guys can hear me, and he says on air, but I don't hear anything, so maybe, well, we'll just work it. We've got to work this new system, we've got to figure it out, so it says that he's going. Can you hear me, Ed? Can you hear me?

No? All right, well, hey, not sure what's going on. We've got another caller coming in, and if you don't mind bearing with us as we kind of work through it, then my apologies for the problems we're having. But this is a new system, and they already worked it Friday and Monday, but I was out those days, so we're just working what we can here. All right, I don't know if I hear anything. Let's try this. It didn't work. Is he hung up? I don't know.

Hey, we'll just see. If you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 8772072276, and the clubhouse audio is very low, huh? Well, it shouldn't be.

It should be okay. We're working on it. All of a sudden, all the stuff's happening all at once. All right, hope you guys can hear me okay, and we'll work on stuff here. Let's try Tony again.

Tony, are you there? Oh, man, I'm not hearing anything. Okay, I've got this turned up. I've got that turned up. Let's try this. Make sure here's that.

I've got that going. I've got everything going, and I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, so I can play with some stuff on my end to make sure that everything is working and it looks like it is. I don't know what's going on, but we'll just have to figure it out.

I've got a break coming up. I can do some more examination of some of the issues here. I don't know, but anyways, this is what happens sometimes. So let's try Tony again. I'll put him on hold, and then let's try it again. Let's try him again. I don't know.

I can't quite get that. Let's try Luke from Washington, D.C. Luke, welcome. You're on the air. Are you there? Wow. All right, not working.

I guess you can, let's see. Not working. It says on the air, but I'm not hearing anything. Why am I not hearing anything? Well, I'm not sure what to tell you folks.

Okay, so he can hear me talking, so I'm on the air. What we'll do is we'll work on it during the next break, but if you do want to give me a call, please, 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you.

Give me a call, and I am working with stuff here trying to figure out the settings. Hey, hello? Hello?

I hear somebody. Hello? Yes, hi.

How are you? This is Matt. Can you hear me? Yes.

Who is this? This is Tony? Yes, Tony. Okay, Tony. Hey, man, sorry about the problems, but that's just what happens. All right, buddy, we're on the air.

What do you got, man? I was looking for a couple of Apostle Banter's Preachers. What's your take on the Apostle Geno Jacobs? Well, I haven't heard him enough to be able to give you a definitive response, but I will say that when someone is addressed as an apostle, I have a lot of problems with that.

I don't see that as being a biblical position for someone today, so I just don't agree with that. Do you hear me, sir? All right, so it's a warning. All right, thank you. Okay? All right, thank you. All right, now. Okay? All right.

Okay, well, we've got some background noise back there. So, okay, well, hey, thanks. Call back again when you can, and we'll talk to you later. All right. Okay, let's see.

Let's try. I don't know if it's the same caller, same name. Tony, you're on the air. Mr. Tony.

All right, Tony. Yes, sir. Hey, welcome.

Hey, thank you. All right, my question has to do with the 613 laws, and I'm really not even quite sure how to ask my question. Were those man-made? Are they in the Bible? Yes. Do they come about during the 400-year period of the Old Testament, New Testament? Maybe you can help me with that. Yes, they are comprised of the laws found in the Old Testament, 613, that were developed in the Pentateuch, you know, the first five books, and the rest of the Old Testament.

The Jews went through at one point in time, and then they decided, I don't know how they decided, but they counted all the obligations, all the laws, everything that were given by God, 613. Okay? Mm-hmm.

That's what it is. Can I ask a follow-up? Sure.

All right. Jesus talked to the Pharisees and scribes about their traditions. What was he referring to there? That traditions had developed around certain ideas and certain things. For example, the Bible says don't work, in the Old Testament covenant, don't work on Sunday. On the Sabbath, excuse me, don't work on the Sabbath. So what happened was, well, how far can you carry a pitcher of water in the house?

Does that work? Because you've got to clean yourself. You've got to clean others.

You've got to cook. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I don't know exact rules, but it would be like this logic. They'd say, okay, you can go 50 feet at one time, and you can't accumulate more than 500 feet through the entire day of carrying a pitcher of water.

I'm not saying those are the right numbers for that. I'm just giving you an example of what they would do. And so people would grow up with these kinds of rules, and then they became law, and so it became tradition. Mm-hmm. And he says you void the word of God for your traditions, and that's what's going on, that kind of thing.

Okay? Is that what I understand to be the oral tradition? Well, there's oral traditions, and there are other kind of traditions. I see. And so there were traditions that developed around what so-and-so the old prophet might have said.

There's traditions around what the commentator, whatever his name, Ben Sira, whatever his name might have been, who commentated 500 years ago on this one verse. And in his tradition, his interpretation might become a traditional line of people who would adopt that traditional thing, and they'd say from the line of or the belief of or from the teacher so-and-so, be a traditional line. You could have different ones.

And so there's different kinds of traditional setups, and that's what's going on. All right. Well, thank you for that. Hey, is there people still waiting? Yeah, we have people waiting. It's a brand-new technology.

This is the first time I've used it. Yes, sir. And so obviously we're having a little bit of a problem, but the problem's on my end. All right. We're working it out.

Well, I wonder if somebody else has a chance then. Okay. So thank you for your time tonight. All right, Matt.

Thanks, Tony. God bless. All right.

God bless. All right. Okay. All right.

Well, there we go, and let's see. We got there, and now let's see if we can get over to Luke from Washington. Luke, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. How are you? I'm doing fine. How are you, buddy?

I'm good. 1 Timothy 2, verses 3 and 4. 1 Timothy 2, verses 3 and 4. I can't get my Bible program open, and it's going to take another 10 seconds, and we'll get to it.

Normally I have it open all the time, but I rebooted my computer and forgot to load it. All right, here we go. 1 Timothy 2, 2 and 4, right? For kings who are all in authority. 1 Timothy 2, verses 3 to 4. Oh, 3 and 4. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Okay.

What about it? What is the explanation of that verse? Well, verse 4? Does the Scripture people come to salvation? Well, there's a lot of possibilities here that I can show from Scripture. For one thing, if God wants all people to be saved, he says he desires all men to be saved, and that if someone says what that means, he's actually wishing and desiring for everybody to be saved, then what I do is I say, in light of that, what do you do with the parables that Jesus spoke? Because in Mark 4, 10 through 12, he says he speaks in parables so people will not be saved. That's Mark 4, 10 through 12. In 2 Thessalonians 2, 11, God sends a deluding influence on people so they'll believe a lie. Well, wait a minute. If God wants every individual to be saved, then how do we harmonize those other verses?

That's one of the things I'll ask people. I'll say it might be the case that he says he wants all men to be saved. It could be the case that he's talking about all men as in not just the Jews but all people groups. It could be also, and I can show the case for this in the Old Testament, where God says he wants to do one thing and then arranges for something else to occur. So he says to Moses, for example, command Pharaoh to let my people go, but I will harden his heart so he won't. So God can desire you to say and do one thing and then arrange to the contrary. It's not a contradiction. It's because he's saying, I want you to do this. This is going to get a result, and I'm going to bring it to a different conclusion.

He knows what he's doing, and he says, you deliver the truth, but I'm going to arrange this. And so there's that issue. And then there's the issue, the third possibility is the word all could possibly only mean the elect. And people might say that's ridiculous because all men means every individual.

Well, not necessarily. When you go to 1 Samuel 3.14, God says that the iniquities of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever. That means the sins of Eli's house were not atoned for by Christ. So if people want to say, well, the all men can't mean only the elect, then I'm going to ask them, well, what do you do with 1 Samuel 3.14 because you can't be saved if your sins aren't redeemed or paid for?

So if they're not, according to what God said, then how do you interpret this? Furthermore, I can show where the all men is in reference only to the elect and only to the believers because you can find out that, for example, that only the Christians, only the believers, have died with Christ, who have crucified with Christ. It's never said to be the case of unbelievers, those who are damned, those who are going to hell. I've never said that they died with Christ.

And I can give the whole study on this, and I have done it before, and there's a good study on it. And then you go to 2 Corinthians 5.14, which says that the love of Christ controls us, have the conclusion of this, that one died for all, therefore all died. Well, wait a minute, if he died for all, and that means every individual who ever lived, and it says then all died, well, then all who died is only in reference to the believers. You can't say that the unbelievers died with Christ. It just doesn't work. So here we can have the all men in reference only to the elect, particularly when Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me, and the ones who come to me will not cast out, John 6.37.

So I can make the case for all three of these from Scripture. Hey, hold on, we've got a break coming up. I'm going to put you on hold.

Hopefully everything will go well. We'll be right back after the break. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the air.

I'm going to try this now, see if this works. How to get him back on. Okay, this is the first time we're doing this. Let's see. Luke, trying to get Luke back on the air.

It's not working. There we go. Luke, are you there?

Yes, waiting for you. We're still learning the system and Keith had to activate you. I couldn't figure it out. All right, man.

So where were we? So we were talking about all, you know, the atifas. The all, yes. Yes, I've written on this. There are so many problems about this person.

No, no, no. People just, they read too much into the word whosoever. They assume humanistic philosophy when they do.

They didn't realize it. They say, whoever. That means everybody has the free will ability in libertarian sense to be able to choose.

It's just that they need information. It is a complete assumption. See, the Bible says whoever believes. All right.

Well, good. Well, we have to ask the question. How is it they come to believe? And people will automatically say, well, it's just up to their free will choice. Well, is it? They just assume it's true.

Is it? Because if it's the case that that's the case, then why is it that Jesus says, you can't come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father? Well, wait a minute. If it's up to just your free will choice, whoever, just means anybody, all you can do is just decide. Well, then why does Jesus say to the contrary, you can't come to me unless God grants it to you? See, they don't, let me tell you, the theology being taught in a lot of churches is not very deep.

It's just not very deep. And so people fill the void with humanist philosophy as they interpret scripture. And God would never do this. How do you know God would never do this? Show me that in the scripture. Because God will always do whatever it is, blah, blah, blah. Show it to me in scripture.

I'm always doing that. Show it to me in scripture where your, your, your assumption is, and they can't find it. And I say, look, if it's true, as you say, that whoever just means anybody who can, anybody who just free will, then why does God have to grant them repentance, grant that they believe, granted to come to Christ, grant that they believe in Jesus? Why is that the case? Why does it say that no one seeks for God?

No one does any good, et cetera. If your position is correct. And then that's when they don't like what the scriptures actually teach. So, okay. Same thing. Romans 11 32. There is another all. God has shut up all disobedience. So that all means same thing.

Yeah. But notice what it says. He shut up all disobedience so that he may have mercy or show mercy to all. Well, then how does he show mercy to the unbelievers? Well, he does by letting them live, by letting them enjoy sunshine and families.

And so he shut up all under disobedience. That means all people, it would seem are, uh, are condemned by the word of truth and the law and so that he might show mercy to all. But then we have, how's the word all use it? It's just, you know, sometimes people think that I make things too complicated, but it's not the case. It's just that they're making things too simple. And I try and show them how God uses words and try and show them the possibilities that could be in there and that we have to be cognizant of what other scriptures say on the same topic.

And then we harmonize everything. And that's what they generally don't do because they're not studying, for example, the word all and how it's related. For example, here in Romans 11, 28, uh, 1 Timothy 2, 4, 2 Peter 3, 9, 1 Corinthians 15, 22, 2 Corinthians 5, 14, Romans 5, 18. These are all verses that have the word all in them in relationship to the topic of what might be considered salvation.

And they're used in different ways. And so I can teach Bible studies on these verses. Let's look. We have to ask questions in light of this verse. I try and teach people, you know, some, some stuff. Okay.

All right. Uh, it seems, uh, Acts chapter 13, 49, how do you interpret that one? 13, 48, we know that, and 49. Well, yeah, 13, 48 is a well-known verse in my mind. Uh, you know, as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The word appointed there is taso in the Greek, which means to put things in order. And the word of the Lord was spread through the whole region. Yeah, it's just that, uh, those who are appointed by God for eternal life believed.

And he did so because God granted it to believe. Now people don't like this. They say, wait a minute, it's not fair. And as a matter of fact, I will be teaching my Bible study Thursday night.

It'll be presented live, Lord willing, Romans chapter nine, starting at verse nine, going through verse 23, going through this very topic of the sovereignty of God, what man's responsibility is, how God chooses for salvation. It's not enjoyed by people. People don't like it.

They want something different. They reinterpret it. I'm going to go through this verse, that section of scripture in depth.

I've been studying it for years, so I'll be doing that and it'll shed light on this as well. So it's, uh, it's a lot of, uh, a lot of good stuff. Okay. My question was 49.

How do you read the next word? And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. Yeah, it just means that the gospel message and truth was, was going everywhere.

All over. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. I can't understand you.

Try one more time. When will be your class on Romans 9? When will I be teaching that? Yeah, it's on Thursday nights.

I teach on Thursday nights starting at 9 30 Eastern time because we have people who show up at the house at a reasonable hour here in Idaho. So it's late on the East coast, early on the West coast. Okay. Okay.

Thank you. All right. Okay. All right. Okay.

God bless. We'll see you next time. Okay. We'll see you. All right.

That was Luke. And now let's see if we can get over to Ed from, uh, Virginia. Ed, welcome. You are on the air. Can you hear me?

Yes, I can. I guess I hear you. Hello.

What do you got buddy? All right. All right. Well, today I was listening to, uh, truth radio and, uh, Dr. Brown and the line of fire and the, and, uh, rabbi Snyder. They're both talking about the, uh, there. Well, it's obvious they're both post tribulationist and they had some pretty interesting arguments. So it brought some questions in my mind. Is there any other prophetic event that needs to take place before the actual rapture can take place? Yeah, I would say the rebellion of the temple of Jerusalem, the arrival and the manifestation of the anti-Christ, the Mark of the beast, us being executed in prison, running for the hills, screaming, things like that. Yeah.

Okay. So yeah, that's, that's a post tribute evidently, obviously. Um, so when do the, the 10 nations of the coalition come together? That's part of what a lot of people, uh, hold to as, um, the prophecy out of Daniel chapter two. And what we've got a break coming up where they hold that, that prophecy. So, uh, let's talk about that because it might be, that might be occurring pretty much soon.

So I, you know, get some stuff there, but hold on. Okay, buddy. Hey folks, we'll be right back after this messages. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Welcome to the show. Welcome back.

877-207-2276. Let's see. I am trying to get back with trying different things. That's not working. That's not working.

I can't seem to, uh, let's try that. Ed, you on? Yes. Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Okay, buddy.

What do you got? Okay. Well, you were talking, we were talking about, uh, the tribulation. And, uh, I asked when the next, uh, the 10 nations of the coalition will come together. Yeah.

And it looks like it's going to happen soon. Uh, I think that we're, I don't think the rapture is very close. I think it's 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years kind of a thing. So I don't know. I don't know.

But, uh, it seems to be the case. Okay. Are you pre-trib rapture? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I went to pre-trib rapture school, but, you know, just I'm open. I mean, I've read, you know, I'm a pre-meal choke, all that stuff.

I'm definitely open. So I'm trying to figure out, you know, like the, this sensation that's usually hold to, you know, God will not put us through the raft. And, and, you know, I'm reading about, you know, that word or gay is the wrath of God.

And evidently the day of the Lord to have that view, he's not, you know, the pre-trib believe that we're not going to be put through that because God says that we're not going to be held to his wrath. So I can, I can understand that argument. It's not a good argument. One thing that gets me is, okay. That's not a good argument. We have a.

Can you hear me? It's a bad argument that when they use, when they go to First Thessalonians and say we're not appointed to wrath, but salvation. Right? And the word wrath is in juxtaposition with salvation. So First Thessalonians 5, 9. God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation. So what's the wrath referring to? Yeah. When I read that, I saw that salvation was there next to it.

I thought, okay, that it would make sense to put those two together. It's damnation. So he's not talking about like eternal judgment in that sense. He is talking about he's not destined us to eternal damnation, but for obtaining salvation. That's what's going on. So when the pre-tribbers use that verse and say the word wrath and then they say, see, we won't be going through the tribulation.

They're just ripping it out of context. That's not what it's talking about. Okay. Okay. That makes sense as I read that.

All right. So the pre-tribbers believe we're going to meet Christ up in the air. Well, is that the second coming or is the third coming when he puts his feet on the Mount of Olives? So there's sort of a little confusion there as far as my thinking process through that.

Well, it sounds like three coming. And that's a problem. So let me help you out.

Okay. So I can give you some homework to go through and to look up this age and the age to come, because that is the model that Paul the Apostle used and Jesus used. And you don't hear about it in churches because the pre-trib view is just so dominant that it'll study this part. So this age and the age to come, there's only two ages, this age and the age to come. In this age, we have eternal life.

People can commit blasphemy. You're giving in marriage, things like that. But in the age to come, there's eternal judgment. You receive eternal life, the full manifestation of it. No marriage and the age to come, et cetera. There's two ages. And then what happens at the end of this age?

And I've got an article on this. It goes through and puts the verses out. At the end of the age is when the wicked are gathered. And that's when the judgment of the wicked occurs and things like this. And the rapture occurs at the end of the age. Now, here's the thing. You are familiar with this phrase, you know, as it was the days of Noah, so shall it be the days of the coming of the Son of Man. They were eating, they were drinking, they were giving in marriage, till the day that Noah entered the ark of flood came and took them all away.

Two men will be in the field, one is taken, one is left. That's the rapture, people say, right? You've heard that, right? Yeah. Yeah, it has nothing to do with the rapture.

Nothing. Yeah, that's... It's the wicked. The wicked who are taken. And you can prove that by doing the parallel in Luke 17, starting in verse 26. It's the wicked are the ones who are destroyed and are taken to a place of judgment.

And it's just obvious. And so, all right, what gets me is this. When I look at that and I say, okay, well, the wicked are taken.

I got you. But the parable that Jesus gives in Matthew 13, when he says the wheat and the tares, you know, he says allow both to go together till the harvest, till the end of the age. I'll say to the harvesters, first gather the tares. The first ones gathered are the wicked. That's what Jesus said occurs at the end of the age.

Well, it blows me away because he said it. That's Mark 13, 30. He even interprets it and says he'll send out the reapers at the end of the age. They'll go gather them, gather his elect. That's the rapture.

But the first ones taken are the wicked. It took me two or three years before I finally admitted this on the radio because it just didn't make any sense how basically nobody else was seeing this and I'm seeing this. I don't know if anybody else is. And it really took me a while to, you know, does anybody else see this?

It can't be that I'm the only one seeing this. And since I found others who said the same thing, well, praise God. But the first ones taken are the wicked. And the ones who are taken afterwards are the good. So this happens at the end of the age. That's when the judgment of the wicked occurs. That's when Jesus returns. That's when the rapture occurs. I've got all these verses. I can show it all to you. And so it just doesn't, the preacher rapture, I'm sorry, folks.

It doesn't make any sense when you look at scripture. Okay? I'm writing down these notes.

I definitely look at that. I mean, like I said, I'm open. Sometimes it's hard to be dogmatic on these things unless scripture is very clear and the rapture issue can be a little confusing. Well, look at this. Look at Matthew 24, you know, when Jesus is talking. And he says, you know, immediately after the tribulation of those days, right? That's what he says immediately. And this is Matthew 24.

He's talking about this. He says in verse 29, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, et cetera. The sign of the Son of Man will appear and then he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet to gather his elect. Well, Jesus said it's after the tribulation of those days. That's what he said, Matthew 24, 29 through 31. And this is in response to them asking, well, when are these things going to happen and what will be the sign of your return? And Jesus says there's only one return, not a halfway return in heaven to get the rapture of the Christians pre-tribulation and then come back later.

It doesn't work because if it did work that way, then how do you fit Matthew 13 into it where at the end of the age the first ones gathered are the wicked? It's what it says. I've not had anybody refute this yet. I'm not trying to be dogmatic or arrogant or stubborn. People have refuted it.

I'm just denying it. Nobody's come up with anything better yet for the timeline to work it through because when I show them Matthew 13, the first ones gathered are the wicked. I read it to them.

Read what Jesus said. And they go, wow, I didn't see that before. Well, yeah. Well, then if the pre-tribulation rapture occurs and it's the Christians taken, then why does Jesus say the first ones taken are the wicked? And they don't know what to do with it. And so there's a problem there. I wonder if the pre-tribbers, they consider the elect the ones that went through the trib.

Yeah. They sometimes will say things like that, but that's not what the Bible teaches. It doesn't teach two and a half comings here. It doesn't teach one half and then another one. It doesn't say that. The return of Christ.

There's only one. He doesn't come halfway, grab people, and then go back up because that would be the rapture. But Jesus says allow both to go together till the end of the age, and I'll say to the reapers, first gather the tares.

Well, then how do you fit the first gather of the tares into this work? They're going to have to invent some new timelines in order to make it work. Well, he comes back three quarters of the way in order to make it work because then the rapture appears later. That's the second rapture when the bad people are in control during the seven-year tribulation period. It's like, are you reading the same Bible I am? So that kind of thing. And I have an article on this on Karm with a lot of documentation, and you can look it up.

You can go look at the website and just look up an examination of this age and the age to come. And there's more in the article than what I'm telling you, but it's a provocative article. It'll get you to think. And even if you say, I don't agree with you, man, praise God. As long as you've studied and you're more educated and you have a better reason for what you believe in, even if you disagree, that's fine. I'm definitely not more educated, but if this post-tribute is biblically correct, that wipes out a lot of Baptists as far as what they believe, as far as the truth. Well, here's something to think about. I don't know of any Baptists that are pre-tribbers. Yeah. When we get back to the break, I could talk more about, we've got other callers waiting, that the apostasy is going to come before the arrival of Christ. Would it be that the people who are hoping to pre-trib rapture are going to fall away because they're going through tribulation when they weren't supposed to, and now they doubt everything?

That's what I'm concerned about. All right, buddy, got to go, man, okay? Talk to you later, buddy. God bless. Thank you.

All right, God bless. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, welcome back to the show, last segment. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Elijah from Philadelphia. Elijah, welcome, you're on the air. Hey, Matt, how you doing? Doing all right, hanging in there.

So where do you go, man? Yeah, I'm just calling to ask you, did you get my email, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, I sent you a seven-minute video from R.N. Ra challenging all Christians, especially Christian apologists, to come onto his channel to discuss the philology challenge, and I just sent you the email again, just in case you didn't get it the first time. I'd like to check it out, because I had a study on philology. What he's specifically asking is something very narrow, which he undoubtedly is specialized in. So I'd have to check out and see what he's saying, what he's doing.

There are the people who take him up on it. I'm not as good in philology as I'd like to be, but I'll check it out and see, okay? Okay. Yeah, he doesn't like me, so he may or may not want to discuss things with me. I know how to ask difficult questions on him, so we'll see what happens, okay?

It'll be fun. All right, what's your most difficult question that you've asked him before? That I've asked him before?

No, it's not a question. It's an observation when I say to him that he's a man of great faith, and he does not like it. He wants science. He wants justified true belief, but he can't justify the requirements of science or justified true belief. He can't justify these things without adopting a faith-filled philosophical position, and when I show him that, he gets upset. At least that's what happened last time, and it was years and years ago.

He just came unglued. He doesn't, I am not. I don't believe it. I have faith. I believe.

Yeah, you do, and I just kept saying it. He did not like it, but it's true because he can't prove science is true. Science is a philosophical position. It's a philosophical approach to learning because it presupposes the universality laws of logic. It presupposes the uniformity of nature, and these are two presuppositions that it works with, and those are philosophical assumptions that you believe by faith. You can't prove them, and I just tell him that.

He does not like it. You know, just stuff like that. Okay?

Yep. All right. I guess that's all I have for you today. All right, man. Well, God bless, buddy. Okay. All right, God bless. All right. We'll talk to you later. All right. Let's get to, let's see.

Let's see. Let's get to Jeff from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Jeff, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

Hey, how did, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Yes, sir. I just had a quick question.

I kind of caught, Tunjian, I got in the car and kind of caught the tail end of the caller before last when you guys were talking about the rapture, and I thought I had heard you say that the wicked will be taken first. Yeah. That's right. I was just wondering if you could, okay. So I guess I'm confused a little bit on this.

Let me just say this to start with. I'm just happy that I know that I'm a born-again Christian, and either way, it doesn't matter post-trip or pre-trip. I know I'm in an eternity with Christ, but my question is this.

If the wicked are going to be taken first, then that only leaves the Christians behind? Is that what you're saying? Well, there's a yes and no. Now this model is something I've kind of inched my way into over the years. I'm not trying to dissuade... Well, I guess I am sometimes. I guess I am trying to dissuade people from certain positions, but here's the thing. Let me put a few things together.

Okay. In Luke 17, it says, just as has happened in days of Noah, so shall it be the days of the Son of Man. They were eating. They were drinking. They were marrying. They were giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all. So the ones who were destroyed are the ones eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage. Well, when you go to Matthew 24 and you read about that, starting in verse 37, it says that they were eating.

They were drinking. They were giving in marriage until the flood came and took them all away. Well, then it says two men are in the field. One is taken. Well, if the flood came and took them all away, the ones who were taken were the wicked.

Two men are in the field. One is taken. One is left. That's right. The context is the wicked.

Right. And then when you go to Luke 17, back to Luke 17, you know, he's talking about that. And they ask him, well, were they taken?

And he actually answers the question. Jesus says in verse 37, he says, where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered. Now, they're taken to a place of death, judgment. Yeah.

All right. Now, so here's this. I'm going to go to Matthew 13 now and do a little bit of reading, okay? So the sower who goes out and sows wheat, and we're all pretty familiar with this, right? And the enemy sows tares. And in verse 29 of Matthew 13, he said, you know, don't tear them up for you're gathering the tares. You may uproot the wheat with them.

Allow both to go together until the harvest. And in the days of the harvest, I'll say to the reapers, first gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up, but gather the wheat into my barn. So I'm reading that.

I'm just going, what? First gather the tares? Well, this started years ago when I had read this. And then you read a little bit further and he interprets it. Yeah, he interprets what he's saying. The enemy, in verse 39, the enemy who sowed them to the devil, the harvest is the end of the age and the reapers are angels. So as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

The son of man will send forth his angels and this is what got me. And they will gather out of his kingdom, all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness. Well, that means out of his kingdom. So then the only way to get out of this is to say that this is talking about after the millennial reign, that the end of the millennial reign, but there's problems with that view. It means there's a rapture way before and then a thousand years, but there's serious problems with that.

We don't have time to get into it right now. And so it's not looking at any sense, but it says out of his kingdom. And Jesus says, he said, the kingdom of God is among you. Okay, what does that mean? And so when I saw all this, me, I often disregard what I've been taught from a lot of people over the years. Not disregard is not the right word. I put it under a microscope, let's just say that, I don't accept everything. What's this? What's that?

Why this? And so I did that with the rapture and the millennium thing. And I came up with something quite a bit different than most. And so... I see that. I see what you're saying.

I mean, I can see that, you know, and I get it. The thing that I'm drawn to, though, is if the wicked are gone, the good are behind. And in Revelation, John, I think, maybe, I'm not sure exactly where it is in Revelation, but John asked, who are these that are before the throne, or I'm kind of paraphrasing now, but I got 24 others, and he's told, well, these are the ones that were, that were saved, you know, that came to saving grace during the tribulation. So if the good are here, they're still here, how are they then saved if they're already saved?

Yeah, it's a problem. And so, when you look at this, and then you look at... That's why I live, I live, I'm sorry, Matt, go ahead. I was going to say, when you look at this age and the age to come, and then you study the last day, the day of the Lord, the last trumpet, and after the tribulation, I've done the homework, and I'm like, you know, I don't care what it says, I just will believe whatever it says.

I don't have any agenda. I go in there and I do all this work, and I'm like, oh, the end of this age is when the wicked are gathered. That's what Jesus said. We just read it, and that's when the judgment occurs. And so, okay, that's the harvest. It says that. We read it. All right?

Okay. And then you find out that that is also, it's called the day of the Lord, John 12, 48, which is the last day. Well, if it's the last day, which is the judgment of the wicked, the end of the age, then you find out that it's also called the day of the Lord, which is when the resurrection occurs.

It's hard to keep track of all this without looking at it. Oh, yeah. And then get this, in 1 Thessalonians 4, it says the rapture, I mean, the trumpet, right? And what I think is going to happen is, what I think happens, I'll show you this too, but I think what's going to, oh, we're almost out of time here. I think what's going to happen is that Jesus is going to come down, take the wicked to a place of destruction, and then immediately rapture the Christians. I think it's going to happen very quickly. Yeah, pretty close.

But check this out. When you go to 1 Thessalonians 4, 16, it talks about the rapture. The rapture occurs, and there it is, and it says, these are the ones that come out of the great tribulation. Now, that throws a bit of a monkey wrench in my position, because that seems to narrow it to the last three and a half years, but that's when the rapture occurs, according to this verse. But what really throws another monkey wrench, not for me, but for others, is as it talks about this, and in chapter five, it says, the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Because that's what he's saying. The rapture will come like a thief in the night, right? And then, oh, then it gets worse. You go to 2 Peter 3, 10, the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the element will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its work will be burned up. Now, 1 Thessalonians 4, through chapter five there, says, the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. But this says, the day of the Lord will come like a thief, no, in the nights missing. Is it the same day, or is it because, it's just a phraseology, but there's nothing else that says the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and there's only one day of the Lord that's in relationship to coming like a thief. So, the day of the Lord that comes like a thief is when the new heavens and new earth are made, but it's also when the rapture occurs.

So here's a question, where's the 1,000 year, literal 1,000 year reign, if they're to happen the same time? Yeah, in Malaria. Yeah, and so it's like, okay, you know, I have been taught, contrary to this, for so long, and then I, you know, you start reading and hearing other people talk about these things and other things over the years, you start going, okay, you know, I'm sorry, but this isn't working. I believe that something else is going on.

They're missing things. Okay? Yeah. I'm just excited to know that I'm going to be there, so, and I know you will too, Matt, so.

That's right. God bless you, and yeah, pray for you, and thanks for what you do. I appreciate it, and just keep praying for this ministry and me, I certainly need it. All right, brother? Yeah, absolutely. All right, brother, God bless.

Absolutely, God bless you. Okay. All right, we'll see you. Bye-bye. Bye. All right. Hey, there you go, folks, and, boy, I tell you, if you want to give me a call, you got to wait until tomorrow.

Apparently, I'm having a debate tonight, and I didn't know that until just a little bit ago, which will be on in an hour and 15 minutes. We'll put it on the calendar, karm.org forward slash calendar, and forward slash calendar. We'll put all this stuff there. May the Lord bless you, and by his grace, we're back on here tomorrow.

Hey, we'll talk to you then. Have a good one, everybody. Have a good one. Have a good one.