Matt Slick Live 07-147-2023

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at CARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone.

Welcome to the show. Hey, hope you have a good time listening and I hope you had a good weekend. My weekend was, uh, yeah, okay. And, uh, I had a nice, you know, on Sundays I relax, you know, I really do try and relax and, and, uh, enjoy myself.

And I did, I watch a lot of stupid TV and stuff like that. Oh, I thought you'd like to know that. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. And if you don't want to call, but you want to have a question or comment expressed on, uh, and or answered on the air, you can just email me at info at CARM.org info at CARM.org.

You can do that and I can get to your comments and questions. We have some radio questions, so maybe I'll get to them. Got a couple of callers coming in. Okay. Just good stuff. Oh man.

Yeah. Working on projects, but do some more video work. And, uh, let's see, Wednesday night, I'll be on clubhouse answering questions. I get into a lot of this kind of impromptu discussion.

I really enjoy teaching, answering questions and things like that. It helps me to polish all of my arguments as a field test them and stuff like that. We get a lot of ideas going here. I'm not going to tell you yet, but we got some ideas going and, um, well, I like to, you know, whittle her out and say, Hey, take a look.

You know, what do you think? So we'll be doing that. So pray for those ideas.

God does what they are. And, uh, let's see. Let's see. Let's see. I think it's about it.

Um, and there's something in there, man. We'll be close. Okay. Yeah, it's on the, uh, we're, yeah, we're, we're broadcasting to see, check this out in, uh, in clubhouse and you can just type in my name at slick and you can find a live show. And we're also brought broadcasting to discord.

I have the, uh, CARM server there, C a R M server. And we're also going to YouTube and we're going to rumble. So, you know, we're just getting out there. And what's really cool is we have a bunch of people who come into the rumble chat.

And right now at the beginning of the show, there's over 30 people usually goes to 60, sometimes a hundred. And, uh, it's a lot of fun. So, Hey, if you want to join us in there and you can even insult me, you know, you can say, Matt does not know what he's doing. That's fine.

You can say that and, um, just say why and, and or call up and you can tell me that I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. When I condemn, uh, the official teaching of Roman Catholicism as heretical because I do or say baptisms not necessary for salvation or how about this one post-trib rapture?

Yeah, I believe in post-trib rapture. And, um, if you don't agree, well, it's okay. You know, it's all right. Uh, and all this one, women are not to be pastors and elders. No, that's, that's non-negotiable.

If you go to a church where there's women, pastors and elders, you need to stop and you need to go to a church that's biblical and, uh, not trust these, uh, uh, exegetical halfwits. They cannot, uh, they can't, um, execute their way out of a wet paper bag. All right. Let's see.

I've stepped on some toes. Let's get to Elijah from Pennsylvania. Elijah.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hey man. Uh, did you see the debate between Brown and Corey on gospel truth a couple of years ago? No, I don't watch any debates, uh, because I'm just so busy. Uh, so, uh, with Dr. Michael Brown against who?

Uh, Corey minor. Okay. What was the topic? Uh, the topic was, is the, once they've always saved biblical.

And my question is, uh, it's something that's Michael Brown had said, cause his position is that, uh, it's not biblical. So, uh, one of the debate him. Yeah. Okay. You say that you said that you did debate him before? No, I would debate him on that. You know, I've, I've talked to him before I had the cell number and stuff. I would do a friendly debate with him and say, no, no, I disagree. You know, and we could talk, but at any rate, okay.

Okay. Um, my question is, because he said this, uh, he says the Jewish communication formula, which is, I never knew you, or I've never known you. And, uh, he said that they used to use this kind of formula, uh, he said that they used to use this excommunication formula against genuine Jewish covenantal followers of the Torah. And then he brings up Matthew 7, 21 to 23, where Jesus also uses this phrase. And he's basically saying that Jesus is using a Jewish excommunication formula as a way to say that this is proof you can use your salvation because if you read this text, then they would associate that with the same as the Jewish excommunication formula.

Well, he's missing something in the text. Many will say to me on that day, now that's the day of judgment, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy in your name and your name casts out damage, your name perform any miracles. So they're appealing to their salvation based on their faith and their works. And Paul, I mean, Jesus says, I never knew you because that's a false doctrine and, uh, Michael, uh, uh, Dr. Brown would not, um, would not teach, uh, I believe he wouldn't teach that we are saved by our works. So Jesus is condemning those people on the day of judgment who appeal to their faith and their works for salvation.

He says, I never knew you. That relates to phrase. I never knew you at Jesus's use, uh, into an issue of salvation. And I can back that up from other areas of scripture too. So I, I get what he's saying and, but he's got to make him, he's got to understand something that the new Testament interprets the old, not the old that interprets the new.

And that's a mistake that a lot of people make. You don't want to go to the old Testament and say, Hey, this is what it means here. That's what it means in the new Testament. It may be the case.

It may not be the case. So you have to look and see what's going on. And so when you cross reference it to Galatians four, eight, it says, however, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those with by nature are no gods, but now that you've come to know God or rather to be known by him, how is it that you turn your back, et cetera. So the idea of being known by God is the critical issue.

And then Jesus says in John 10, 27, he says, my sheep, hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. So he's talking about the issue of knowing them.

If he says, I've never known you then, uh, we're clearly saying that he's just not saved the person who never wants to begin with. Okay. Okay. Um, and, uh, and I have another question.

Sure. Um, and, uh, Colossians one, one 21 to 23 in verse 23 because we see the word, if that means that, uh, you can lose your salvation because you can't lose your salvation. Then why did the writers say, you know, if you think he's writing to the Colossians and, uh, the Colossians has a bunch of people in it, right? So there are saved people and non-saved people in the Colossian context. I've been to Colossae, uh, it's a tell.

I've actually stood on the Mount where, uh, the church was and there's nothing there now, but I've been there in Turkey and seen it. It's a lot of fun. So anyway, uh, so he's just talking to the people.

There's a mixture of people. He says, now look at this. He goes, and although you were formally alienated hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet he has now reconciled you in the fleshly body through death.

Now this is certainly get the idea. Well, I'm talking about believers, but there's also a believers in there. He says, in order to present you before him, holy and blameless and beyond reproach, if indeed you continue in the faith. So he's not saying you can lose it. He's saying if you continue in the faith, that's when you're going to be presented. Well, how do you know if you're continuing with the faith?

Because you do. So he doesn't know which individuals in that church are the ones who are going to continue or not continue. It's not conditioned upon your faithfulness that you're saved, but the reality of the condition of, if you, if you do continue, it's a manifestation of your salvation. And one of the things I would ask Dr. Brown is I'd say, well, tell me what things you got to do to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God, because being the excellent ex-GTS of Jewish scriptures, he's going to have the mindset of the legality of the law. And I'm going to ask him, you know, what do you do?

What do you have to do? And then I'm going to, I'm going to quiz him and say, would you, are you doing these things? Are you keeping the law?

Are you doing those things that you have to do to keep yourself right? Whatever those things might be, whether he goes to the new Testament or the old Testament, if he goes to the new Testament, he applies only the new Testament stuff. Well then fine.

We can look at that. So, uh, the, the conditionals here are often misunderstood. Uh, they think that it means it's up to you and your goodness to be able to keep yourself right with God. And no, it's not. And there's other reasons and other ways to prove that eternal security is true. But anyway, those are some of the things. Okay. Yeah. Uh, he, he, he, he, he, his argument for other debates is that, that if he's the warden of scripture and don't become hardened of heart, then you'll, then you'll remain in Christ and not lose your salvation. That's what he believes. Yeah. Okay.

Say that again. If you don't harden your own heart, right? Well, he said, he said, he said, he said, if you heed all, all of the warnings in scripture in a new Testament and if you don't harden your heart, you will remain in Christ and therefore you won't lose your salvation. You know, if you can, if you heed the warnings and you're remaining Christ. Yeah.

So you keep your salvation by your goodness. That's what he's saying. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah, of course. Well, that's what people do. You know, to me, it's humanist philosophy to, uh, to say that if you do this, if you do that and you continue to do this and you continue to do that, then you'll keep yourself right with God.

That to me sounds pretty bad. You know, Jesus says, here, I'm gonna show you something. Okay. That's what Jesus says in going John six 37. Okay.

I'm gonna start reading from there. All of the father gives me will come to me. Now this deals with election because in Ephesians one four it says the father chose us in him before the foundation of the world. So all the father gives me will come to me. It's not all who come to me. The father will give me.

Okay. Notice that the father gives them, those are the ones who come into Christ. So there's a set of people. The father's giving to the son. They're going to come to Jesus and the one who comes to me, I certainly will not cast out, but they'll say, oh, you can cast yourself out. Nothing in scripture says that. He says, for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Now check this out. What's the will. The father, this is the will of him who sent me that all that he's given me, I lose nothing.

So there's a group called the all and the father's giving them to the son and the will of the father is don't lose any of them. So can Jesus lose any? Uh, uh, uh, he brought that up. He said, he said that he, he does not believe that, uh, Jesus can lose any, as in as in somebody else can remove you.

But he, he believed that our, we ourselves can remove ourselves. Yeah, that's, that's false. It's false. Look at me go over it again. Keep that in mind.

Okay. All the father gives me will come to me. There's a group of the fought by the father called the all, all the father gives me.

There's a certain group of people. The father's giving to the son for safe keeping the will of God. The father's at Jesus lose none of those that he's given him. Jesus always does the will of the father.

Johnny 29. So with the, the not so clever, I'm sorry, that's what it is. Not so clever way of people get around this or try to get around this. Well, you can lose yourself, but that's not what the issue here is. The issue is between the father and the son. And the father says, I don't want you to lose any. Okay, I won't, but they're going to lose themselves. And so when I lose them, it's not really me losing them. So now what's happened by that interpretation is instead of the will of the father, being that Jesus not lose any, now Jesus can lose some open. He's not losing them.

They're losing themselves, but that's not what the issue is. The issue is the father says, don't lose any. That's it.

That's the will of the father to Christ. Oh, well they got out of my hand. I couldn't help it that he failed. Okay.

So that's a bad one. All right, buddy. All right, Elijah, God bless. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt slick live taking your calls at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt slick.

All right. When welcome back to the show, let's get to Alan from Virginia. Alan, welcome. You're on the air.

Thank you, Matt. Um, my, my question is can you explain how gifts from God work and what circuits we should have on the topic? What kind of gifts I've heard there's like healing, prophecy, giving and stuff like that.

Okay. So we're talking about the charismatic gifts. Um, so, uh, there are two, two main schools of thought on this, that the charismatic gifts have ceased with the completion of the, uh, of the Canon and or the death of the last apostle. And the other one is that the con the gifts have continued and are still available to the church, though not normatively like the apostles had them. So I affirm the latter, that all the charismatic gifts are still around. And it says in first Corinthians one seven that you not lack any charisma, charismatic degrees, no longer waiting for the return of Christ. Now there are other gifts that are listed in, uh, Romans 12 first Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. And there are like administrations and helps and things like that.

But then there's other gifts where they are, um, charismatic Lee or Holy spirit empowered, speaking in tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, healings, prophecy, things like that. So, those are the main divisions. Now I can get into it more, but, uh, why don't you ask another question in light of that and kind of get more going here? Um, I don't know. That was the, that was all I have ready. Okay.

Here, let me, uh, throw something out at you. This is a roundabout way of showing something the Jesus said in John eight 50 safety says, Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it all was glad. And in Genesis 22 and 23 and 24, what you'll see is that, uh, for example, God said to Abraham taking only begotten son. Well, he'd had Ishmael 13 years earlier and he said, take your only begotten son Isaac go off from on a hill because he's the blessed one. The only begotten, uh, in the theological sense.

Well, Jesus is called the only begotten. Now, both the sons were offered on a hill and some theologians thinks it was exact same hill. Both took a donkey to the place of sacrifice. Uh, both, uh, had two men who went with them.

The father, Isaac and Eliezer, the helper, the servant went with Isaac. And, uh, there were two thieves with Jesus on the cross. It was a three day journey to get to the place of sacrifice for Abraham and Isaac.

And Jesus was in the grave three days. Both Isaac and Jesus carried wood on their back up the hill. Uh, it's in Genesis 22 eight Isaac, you know, ask what's the, where's the sacrifice? And he says, God, Abraham says, God will provide for himself the lamb. And Jesus is the lamb of God, the sacrifice. So, uh, each we're offered on wood and a Ram, uh, a ram caught in the thicket of thorns was what they used in place of Isaac. And Jesus bore the crown of thorns.

Both said the seed will be multiplied. And I give the verses for that. Abraham went down, but Isaac is not mentioned as going down. He just says to Abraham went down. So that's typological of Christ coming down from the cross.

Then now this is where I'm getting to. So then the, uh, Abraham says to Eliezer, the servant, go get a bride for the son. Now we are the bride of Christ, the bride of beautiful Virgin, Genesis 24 16 second Corinthians 11 two reference to us. And he finds the bride at the well. Now that's the same well of John four, the woman at the well who had five husbands. And, uh, I've drunk out of that very well.

I just like to brag about that. It's, what a pleasure. Now having said all that, but the servant gave 10 gifts, 10 camels laden full of gifts to the bride, 10 gifts. I'm trying to do is show a typology and representation. So what I did was I went to the scriptures where it talks about the giftings for the church. And I discovered that six of them are not charismatic, automatically empowered by the Holy spirit, administrations and helps and things like that. There are six of those. And man was made in the sixth day.

So that's called the number of man six. Then I was looking through, uh, Romans and first Corinthians on these gifts with a listing of them are, and I only found nine, which is really interesting. I found nine charismatic gifts, you know, prophecy, word of wisdom, interpretation of tongues. And I couldn't figure out what the 10th was because the typology is just too perfect.

Well, it took me a while, but I found it. And it's a Roman six 23, the wages of sin is death, but the gift charisma, the gift of God is eternal life. It's charismatic gift. So God gives to the church these gifts and you'll notice these gifts are not returned. They're not taken back. They belong to the bride.

So, um, there's, that's, that's a roundabout way of talking about them, but, uh, I believe they're all available to us today. They're not normative. And when you see guys on TV, speaking in tongues and joking with each other in tongues, I think that's an abomination. I think it's foolishness.

And, um, we need to be very careful in the use of them, but God still allows these things, uh, to occur. That's my opinion. Okay. Okay. Um, is it also possible to have multiple gifts or only one? No, I'm very gifted, uh, uh, and being obnoxious, my wife says, but I'm also gifted in being a teacher.

So I have two gifts right there. Okay. So people can have pastors are gifted. They should be able to teach and, uh, they, maybe a pastor might have the ability to, to have a discerning of spirits as well.

I don't see why not. Okay. What does that mean? Discerning of spirit? Well, that's a, that's a tough one.

Um, because we don't know exactly, it doesn't really tell us, but it seems to be generally speaking, to be able to tell if either someone or a spirit involved in a certain situation is from God or not. Okay. Okay. You know, I've seen the gifts move and I've experienced them. Not that I make doctrine out of my experience, but I have seen them and experienced them and I'm very, very critical of everything. You know, in that I put everything subjection to scripture. And so that's what it says. And I'm not convinced by the exegesis of first Corinthians 13, eight through 13.

It says that the, uh, the gifts have ceased and, uh, the exegesis that they use in my opinion for that is in my opinion is weak. And, uh, I've written an article on it and stuff like that. So that's me. Okay. Okay. All right. I appreciate it, Matt. Thank you. Amen. No problem at all. God bless. All right. Hey, let's get to next. Longest waiting is Tracy from Charlotte, North Carolina. Tracy.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hello, Mr. Flick. How are you? They're doing all right.

Hanging in there. Great. So, um, my question is the other day that you had a just a short little comment and you said that there were actually 13 tribes of Israel versus, uh, versus 12. Can you expound on that a little bit? Tell me where I could find that in scripture, please. Yes.

Uh, let's see. Um, there's 13, uh, and I don't have an article written on this, but I'm looking at some resources and I'm trying to find the exact references that list them all out. And I can't see that, but, uh, they're Asher, Benjamin, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Issachar, Judah, Levi, Manasseh, Naphtali, Rubens, Simon and Zebulun in alphabetical order. And so there's three, let me look into breaks and find out the reference of it. If not, I'm gonna have to write an article to get all of it together. Hold on, man. We've got a break coming on three open lines. If you want to give me a call eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show.

Tracy, are you still there? Yes, sir. All right. So I did a rushed examination and, um, if you go to Revelation chapter seven verses four through eight, you'll see that there are 12 tribes listed there.

12 tribes. Yep. Dan is not listed there, but if you go to Genesis 35 25, you'll see that the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's maid, Dan and Naphtali. But Naphtali is mentioned in, uh, that pericope of Genesis, of Revelation seven four through eight. So that's just a, that was just a quick look to see if I could find, uh, any support of that.

I've known this for years. I just, uh, you know, you learn stuff and then you forget where you find it and where it was and how and all that. It's just back in the back of my head. So, uh, there's that. So I would look at, I think, uh, and it's all Genesis 36, 30 verse six. I think it's Dan that introduced idolatry into Israel or something like that. And this is foggy in the back of my head, which I remember from so long ago. And I think that's why, I'm actually not sure why, but I think it's one of the contributing reasons why they're not listed as the 12.

And sometimes Naphtali, I think Naphtali, Dan is included in Naphtali for a reason, but that's just the best I got in my head right now. Okay. Those passing comments I make that gets me in trouble. All right. Gotta prove it.

All right. Yeah. It's quite confusing. Like if, I mean, there are 12 tribes named and like you said, you said that there were 13. I mean, is there a name for the 13th? Is it? Yeah, it looks like it's Dan. So I need to do some research on it, uh, and and see if I can write an article.

I got a bunch of stuff I'm doing. So, uh, check that out, check it out and see what Dan, I think Dan is, is, was, was excluded ceremonially because of its introduction to, um, of, of, uh, excuse me, of, um, sin or idolatry. Just, I hope I'm right. It's been so long as I've studied this. Really 20, 30 years. I mean, it's that long ago. And so when I was talking the other day, I just remembered it.

Oh yeah, that's right. There's 13 tribes. Not many people know that. There's a lot of little things in the Bible people just don't know, like the 10 commandments. It's not four and six or five and five.

Each tablet had 10, you know, just, just things like that, you know, so, uh, stuff. So, uh, uh, read, read that revelation seven, four through eight, and then what else? And, uh, Genesis 35, 25. And it'll show that, uh, Dan is one of the brothers or is a brother of, of, uh, Neftali. So, oh, wait a minute. Don't, it's got Dan in there. All right.

My list I said has Dan or let me see. Right. So, so Asher, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Ishtar, Vanessa, Neftali, Reuben, Simeon, and Zebulun, that's 10, and then Judah and Benjamin. So where does the 13 come in? Like who's the 13? No, in, um, in Revelation, it's not listed as 13.

Okay. So tribe, I'm looking for Dan in that pericope and, uh, Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Neftali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, uh, Joseph, Benjamin. So Dan's not listed there. And, uh, Dan is, uh, that's right, Dan is, he's a brother, like I said, okay, I remember it. So he's a brother of Neftali. So I'm just saying in Revelation 7, 4 through 8, it lists 12 tribes, but Dan's not included.

But Dan is listed in the Old Testament as a brother of Neftali, and that's where the 12 tribes came from. So that's what I'm, that's, uh, that's the trail I would send you down to take a look and see what you can find. Okay. All right. Well, clear as mud. Thank you. No, take it out. Check it out.

Look at Dan. All right. See, check it out. There's a lot of stuff in there. Okay. And then I'll see if I can do some research. I got so much to do. Okay. Thanks a lot. All right. Let's go on the air with Ryan from Utah.

Ryan, welcome here on the air. Hey, how's it going? It's going.

So what do you got? Good, good. Hey, I apologize. I just got a tail end of the previous caller, and, uh, it sounded like you were saying that while, while I, I agree that, uh, there's a finite known amount of people who will be saved in the end. Um, it sounded like you were saying that works don't have really any part or that people who are going to be saved could not, uh, in a sense deny themselves or change that because of their works. And I just wanted to disagree with that. You can disagree. Okay. You can disagree.

Okay. But, uh, and I guess what I mean is, uh, so let me clarify. I do agree that, uh, in the end, obviously God knows from the beginning what, uh, who is going to be saved and who is not going to be, but everyone who comes into the world has the same opportunity to seek, find, and follow Jesus. Um, that, that, and you could call that maybe a positive to the numbers, and everyone who is seeking, following, and finding does still have the opportunity because of their, their free actions. Are you a Mormon?

To disqualify myself. Uh, yes I am, but I don't want to get off on the tangent because I know that it'll go in a hundred different directions. Yeah, well, here's the thing. Did Jesus pay for our sins? He did.

He did for those who, who repent and confess his name and follow him. I didn't ask all that. I said, did Jesus, uh, pay for our sins? That's what I asked.

Okay. Did he? He did. He did. Did he pay for everybody's sin who ever lived? He did.

Okay. So if he paid for it, so if sin is, if sin is, hold on, hold on, I'm asking questions. If sin is paid for, then it doesn't exist anymore.

It's gone, right? The debt, the payment is the defense. It's not paid for everyone. We, we do have to follow him. But you just, you just said, excuse me, Luke, Luke, Luke, excuse me, Ryan, Ryan, sorry, Ryan, Ryan, you said, you said he paid for everybody. Well, I'm just saying, if he paid for their sin.

He paid for everyone, everyone who follows him. Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, calm down. Why don't you tell, uh, dude, I'm sorry, I'm getting a lot of...

Okay, we're done. Um, so, uh, I'm just going to ask him basic questions and, uh, you know, but he, this is what happens sometimes. The guys get excited and they don't want to just be quiet and just go with the conversation, you know, and he tells me to chill out.

He's the one who's not chilling out. So, uh, here's the question. And Mormonism is not Christian, folks, so I was just entertaining the view that he would have from his perspective. If, if Jesus paid for everybody's sins, the question then is, why does anybody go to hell or be damned?

And that's the question I want to ask. I want to see what he's going to say about that, because I hope you don't agree with the Mormons. If you're a Christian out there who says that he paid for everybody, but yet people still are damned, because how is that possible if he paid for it? Now, the general response is, well, you, you have to believe, but command, the command to believe is something under the law, Old Testament and New Testament. So did he pay for the sin of disbelief? If you say no, then you got a problem, because what do you do with an atheist who is a disbeliever and then, uh, became a Christian? Well, is, is the sin of disbelief paid for?

Well, if that one is, then you have a problem discerning which one is and which one is not, and you become the judge of what is right. So, uh, there are difficult questions to ask, but when I'm asking questions and someone starts jumping in and giving long answers and explanations and stuff like that, he's not even listening and then tells me to chill out, it doesn't work like that. So, uh, Ryan's going to have to call back and get in line and we can talk to him afterwards. Let's get on with Luke from Washington. Luke Washington, I mean, you're on the air. Hi, Matt, how are you? Doing fine.

We've got a couple minutes in the, in the, before the break, what do you got? Uh, today I have a question about problem of evil. Did sovereign God ordain evil?

Why? Yes. Yes, he ordained evil. It doesn't mean that he causes it, but it means that it's ordained to occur within his sovereign plan.

Okay. No, uh, then, so he's the order of sin. No, ordain, ordain is different. Some people think ordain means he's directly causing it.

That's not what it means. If there's a thousand different universes that could exist, and God chose one of them, then he's ordaining by choosing which factors come into existence. He's choosing that set of factors. One of the factors in there is human freedom, and people freely act in a manner contrary to him, and so they induce evil.

He's not making them do that, but he's ordained that they have the freedom in that situation, so he's not the author of evil. Okay. No, then, uh, you mentioned last time about ultimate cause, proximate cause, in chat, connected to this, and efficient cause.

That's correct. Yes. So, what are the causes? Three causation, right?

Ultimate cause. Okay, we got a break. Hold on. We'll get back from the break.

I'll explain what, uh, efficient proximate and ultimate causation are and how they're important in this discussion. Okay. Hey, folks, we'll be right back.

We have two open lines. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm gonna, I'm asking for Mr. Kitt to call in, because in the text, he's a completed Jew. He knows about this 13 tribe thing.

I'm going to read what he wrote. Uh, in Genesis, then of Jacob came to Joseph in Egypt. He reckoned Joseph's son is his own. After that, there were 13 tribes. It's the tribe of Joseph was divided into Ephraim and Manasseh, and therefore 13 tribes.

Sometimes Reuben is removed from the listing because he sinned with his father's wife in the listing of 12 again. So, uh, there you go. Uh, yeah. Okay.

There's some more information on that, so praise God. Let's get back on with Luke. Okay, Luke, welcome.

You're on the air. So, uh, do you have any notes on this problem of evil? Uh, I can hear, and then you're telling me about the causation. Yes, go to Carmen.

Go to Carmen. Look up just the phrase efficient cause, and you'll find articles written with that, where that phrase is used along with the other ones. Let me explain what the efficient proximate and ultimate cause are. The efficient cause, and I say that, I always use Adam as an example of this, okay. Adam was in the garden, and no one forced him to sin. No one forced him to rebel. God didn't do it. Satan didn't do it. Eve didn't do it. He chose of his own free will to rebel against God by eating the fruit.

He did that. No one forced him, so he exercised his free will, and he is the efficient cause, which is called efficient. He's the efficient cause of his own rebellion, his own action. He chose to do the action. That action happened to be a sinful one. So the efficient cause of an action is the person's self.

He degenerates out of his own will. All right, the proximate cause is the circumstance that he found himself in. For example, the two trees in the garden.

Being in the garden, Eve is there with him, etc., and the serpent was allowed to come into the garden. So that's the proximate cause. So it's a set of causes or situations that are removed from the actual event.

They are a foundation in which and upon which and through which an event can occur. So Adam is the efficient cause, and he's the one who freely chose to rebel. No one forced him, so he's guilty. The proximate cause is laid there by God, who allowed the evil one to come in and allow the trees to be there, etc. And so he's the proximate cause. He's also the ultimate cause because he created the universe and everything in it. So that's what the difference between the main difference here is the efficient proximate causation. So when God ordains evil, it's in the sense of the ultimate and proximate. And so think of of ordaining as a means by which God brings certain circumstances into bear in the condition in which people can act freely and are culpable in their own actions.

That's their efficient cause, okay? Okay, then Lamentations 338. Can you explain to me that Lamentations 338?

Okay, Lamentations 338. It is not from the mouth of the most high that both good and evil go forth. I would say that it's not from the mouth of the most high that both evil and good and evil go forth. He doesn't speak good and evil, okay? Only good.

Only truth, okay? So what is that meaning there, you know, both evil and good from God's mouth? It's not from the mouth of the most high that both good and evil go forth. It's saying that both of those don't occur from God, okay?

What does verse mean? It means that God does not present evil. He does not bring evil to us, okay? But God is over and over.

What's that? God is sovereign and over. God is sovereign over this spirit.

Yes, he's sovereign over the evil as well. So he allows evil to occur. That's his permissive will. He doesn't want it to occur in the prescriptive will. Don't lie, but he permits you to lie.

So he gives a prescriptive will. He doesn't want you to do that, but he will let you do it because you have freedom. And your freedom is your efficient cause of your own sin. God's not the one responsible for your sin.

That's your choice, okay? So how many wills God has? Sovereign will, prescriptive will, permissive will? Decretive will, we say. But so we don't say he has three wills like there's three persons in there. It's just a theological aspect to differentiate aspects of his will. So the decorative will is what we use to say that it's an absolute thing that God desires is going to occur. And so he said, let there be light.

There's light. That's it. That's it. He decrees it. It's an exerted effort of assertion that is the fact and it's going to occur. But there's also a sense in which God wills that we not sin. He said, I don't want you to lie. It's a moral aspect reflecting his character. But it's also a moral aspect reflecting his character that he allows you to disobey him.

He freely allows you to. So what we say is that is the permissive will of God in that it's his will to permit you to sin. It's his will to recommend and declare that you should not sin. That's called the prescriptive will. It's not that he has three wills.

These are just definitions that we use to demonstrate and describe the different aspects of how his will works. Okay? Okay. Okay.

So one more question. We got callers waiting. Hold on.

We got callers waiting. So we'll get going. Okay. Call back. Okay.

Call back tomorrow. We'll get to it. All right, buddy. Okay. All right. Let's get to Jonathan from Texas.

Hey, Jonathan. Welcome. You are on the air.

I'm on. Oh, good. Yes, you are. All right.

Thanks for accepting my call, buddy. Sure. Um, yes, I tried sending that stuff about what Sam told me. I got it.

To karm.org, but I don't know if it went through. I got it. I got it. Oh, you did? Yeah.

Yeah. They were MP3s or MP4s. I forgot which, but had attachments and I created a folder. Actually, I didn't create a folder because I remembered I went to create a folder and his name was already there. I just moved the stuff into that folder, your email that you came in.

I had the attachments. Okay. I should have said, Hey, thanks.

But I was, yeah, I should have done, but you were, you were a thousand and a half percent correct about his behavior. Yeah. Yeah. He's off it.

He's off it. I watched more YouTube videos. God help that guy. Yeah. In fact, if you want, you can find more and just send them to me. Seriously.

Find stuff where he's being vituperative, obstreperous, recalcitrant. Okay. Those syphorus. All right.

And pure. All right, buddy. Thank you. Those are pejoratives. All right.

So yeah. And then send them to me and, and here's what you could do though. Okay. If you send me like, here's a link to a three hour video, check that out. I automatically won't, uh, you have to say, here's a three hour video. Here's a three hour video. Listen at, you know, one hour, 23 minutes.

And then that's where he says this, the boom. I'm right on it. I can do it. Okay. All right. All right. Okay. All right, buddy.

You have a very good afternoon. Thank you. God bless you. You too, man. God bless.

All right. Let's get back with Ryan from Utah. Ryan, welcome. You're on the air.

Are you there? Ryan. Ryan. Maybe he's not, uh, he's calling back. Don't hear him.

They don't hear him. So, you know, we'll give him a few seconds here. Um, so we'll see.

And, uh, yeah, I think the phone's bad or something. Call back. All right. Let's just jump on the air. Okay.

I mean, not the air. The, if you want to call me, we have about five minutes left. 877-207-2276. What I want to do here is get to the comments and questions on, from the radio, from the radio listeners and see, let's see what this is. I'm going to open this thing up.

Nice to talk to you yesterday. Have a couple of questions. You said that, uh, you were going to speak about the pride flag. Oh, um, I didn't see it on the seed on the chosen set. Uh, I'd heard about it. I liked the series too, but I need to get more information, uh, on what exactly the context was. So that's the thing. Got to learn the context. Okay.

Number two, when God said, Jacob, I love you. So I hated Romans nine. Not sure. Does that mean, uh, hate as human hates or different definition?

It means as humans hate. Okay. And, uh, it's the sovereignty of God. And when you go in to Romans nine, which I'll be teaching on in a week or two or three, depending on how fast the Bible study goes at that, that I'm teaching on Thursday night, I'll be going through it in depth. I may take the whole pericope of nine through 23 and go through it and explain really what's going on. Um, and we'll explain what I believe is going on.

I know that there are counter arguments, uh, to the idea of God's sovereignty because people have the notion, the idea that God could only be a certain way and he would never, um, make someone for, uh, for dishonorable use. We can get into that. All right, let's get to, uh, Clarice from North Carolina. Clarice. Welcome. You're on the here. Hi, ma'am.

Thank you for taking my call. I just have a quick question. Um, I wanted to know if you believe the Bible teaches that speaking in tongues is the only evidence of being filled with the spirit. No, it's not the only evidence.

The evidence that we need to look through is, um, in, uh, Galatians five 22, the fruit of the spirit. Now the word in Greek fruit is carpos and it's singular. It's not carpoi, which is plural. No, it's not plural.

It's singular. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. So these are the things we need to be looking to for the fruit of the spirit and the proof or the evidence of the spirit indwelling someone. Anybody can mimic the issue of speaking in tongues.

You know, if you want to do that, you could say, got to buy a Honda, got to buy a Honda, got to buy a Honda. And if you say it really fast, Hey, speaking in tongues, people, uh, I'm sure do this kind of a thing deceiving themselves. And I do believe speaking in tongues is possible, but I see from what I've seen, uh, it's just so often just fake in churches. And then they'll say, see the evidence of speaking in tongues, the baptism of the Holy ghost.

You know, some people talk like that and I say, no, no, no. Look at the fruit of the spirit. That's the, the evidence of the fruit of spirit in you.

The one fruit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness. Okay. I have, I have friends that believe that the initial evidence that you've been filled with the spirit is speaking in tongues. Do you believe that?

No, no, there's no initial evidence of that. Uh, no, that's a church. It might be a United Pentecostal church. Ask them if they believe in the Trinity. Ask them if they believe in the Trinity. No, they do. They do.

They're from assemblies of God. Okay. All right. That explains it. Then they'll say it's the initial evidence. Well then what do you do if you don't speak in tongues? Does that mean you don't have the Holy spirit? Because is that what they're saying? The assemblies of God, you got to be careful of because they're starting to, they're adopting women pastors and elders teach, uh, holiness, uh, stuff about, you don't sin anymore and that you can lose your salvation in the denomination just going south over the years.

So that's just one thing. Not to say that what they're saying isn't true or anything, but, uh, no, uh, speaking in tongues is one of the evidences that occurred, but what is that speaking in tongues? And if you go to Acts chapter two, they're, Oh man, we're out of time, but look at Acts chapter two.

Notice that they're speaking in the tongues that were understood by the people around them, not just the Hebrew tongue. So that's one possible interpretation of what it is. And Clarice, I'm so sorry, but we're out of time. So we've got to get going.

There's the music. Okay. Can you call back tomorrow? We can get through it some more. We've got to go. Hey folks, sorry about that. May the Lord bless you. Be on the air tomorrow by God's grace. Talk to you then. Another program powered by the truth network.