Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick live. If you're a newbie tuning in, just let you know, Matt Slick is my real name, even though it is a cool radio name, it is my real name.

And also, we do apologetics here, answering questions, talking about the truth of scripture. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. And you can also email me info at KARM.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, info at KARM.org. You can email me a comment or a question for the radio show if you don't want to call up. Real easy, real easy, real easy. And speaking of easy stuff, hey, we're doing the Footsteps of Paul tour. And we've got Eric from Utah on. And hey, Eric, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm doing fine, Eric. Yep. So, folks, this is Eric. He leads a lot of tours to the biblical lands. We just got back four months ago from Israel. Great tour.

Loved it. And so something else is happening, right? How's that for a segue? Well, we're going to go to Turkey, Greece, and Italy. We're going to go to the seven churches of Revelation, as well as following Paul all over the countries. You know, you mentioned apologetics.

That's what you do here on this radio show. I was just talking today to Pastor Lauren Pankratz, who is going on this trip as well with Bridge Community in Centerville. And he just mentioned to me a story today that his son, who went with us in 2022, was talking to some Latter-day Saints. And they basically were saying, well, how do you know what you believe is true?

How do you know the Bible is true? And the son said, well, let me tell you, I've been to a lot of the places the Bible talks about. So I don't know which place he talked about, but he was able to use that in apologetics going on a trip. This is not a vacation, it's an investment, I think, not only in your Bible reading and your understanding of the geography, but it's also for apologetics.

Because these are real people that were seeing, you know, that lived there, and real places that were visiting, and real events that took place there. So just like the Israel tour you went on, this is going to be spectacular. This is April, from April 1 through the 19th, and it's going to be three countries, six days in Turkey, six days in Greece, four days in Italy.

There's three days of travel. And if people want to find out more, we have eight spots only left. We're going with a bus of 43, and we've got 35 people going right now, and we still have eight spots. And if they want to go, with Matt Flick, with Lauren Pankratz, with Eric Johnson, will be the three main chaperones, you'll be speaking at different places.

So will Lauren and myself, and some others as well. This is the trip to go on, and if people want to sign up, they can. They can go and see everything about it at bridgepaltour.com.

That's one word, bridgepaltour.com. And Matt, you've been to some of those sites in Turkey. And I don't know if you've been to any of the sites we're going to in Greece and Italy, but it's fantastic.

Oh, I'm looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to Greece and Turkey. Yeah, we went to Israel four months ago, and we went to Turkey, what, five years ago or something like that? Oh, no, that was 2013. So this will be, that's 10 years ago we went that you had a chance to visit there.

Wow. Well, you know, it doesn't seem like that long because the memories are so strong, being in different places. And it was great in Turkey. I felt safe and a lot of good memories. My favorite, one of my favorites of all things, seeing everything, one of my favorites was ordering coffee in a Turkish coffee house when none of us spoke the same language. And it was great.

Yeah. Well, that's part of the fun of this trip is you're going to have a chance to experience the culture of what it is today, 21st century. But when you're standing, let's say, in Ephesus, you've been in Ephesus, and you're standing at the theater that they were shouting for the head of Paul. And then, you know, they were big into Diana, of course, and the great is Artemis of the Ephesians. And I mean, you're there in that theater.

I mean, that's just, that's too much. We're going to be at Athens. We're going to be in Nicaea, where the Nicene Creed was created. We'll be in Pompeii, Corinth, Rome, Istanbul, and then the seven churches of Revelation. I mentioned Ephesus, but we also go on to Pergamum and Sardis and Laodicea.

I'll never forget going to Laodicea. And, I mean, it's just newly dug in the last 20-year site, and I was just there in 2019, and they dug out a theater. And the theater had just been dug out the previous year, and I went back this last October, and they still haven't done a lot of work on it. But, I mean, down on the ground, there is a theater that the people used in that day. I mean, when you go to a place like Pompeii, it's not a New Testament town that we know of anything happening there, but it helps us to understand better, when we read the book of Acts, and we're seeing all of these stories, and you're at places like this, you're going to see the depravity of man. I mean, we believe in the total depravity of man, and you're going to see that. Brothels and all kinds of things that happen at Pompeii. And Corinth, of course, we're going to be there. Terrible things that people were doing.

Sexual immorality, Paul had to deal with those things. I think you're going to read the book of Acts and the Epistles so much more clear. If you've never been to Israel, that's fine. You don't have to have been to Israel before. But if you have been, I say this is the apologetic study Bible tour part two.

And I get really excited. I'm doing two of these trips this year. I'm going to these lands more than Israel. I'm only going to Israel once next year, and I'm going to these places twice. And yours is in April.

19 days, long time, I realize. But if you're going to go that far, you might as well go see everything. And we're staying at four-star hotels. We've got guides in every country, our own bus.

I mean, I've made it so that you don't have to worry about anything. The price is all-inclusive. You can go online and you can see that at abridgepaltour.com. And I think when you look at what you're getting, it's including the breakfast dinners, it's including the admission fees, it's including taxes and even the tips. You don't have to even tip because we've collected it all.

It is amazing. We're leaving out of Chicago and flying straight to Istanbul, Turkey, and then going to Izmir from there. And man, I just encourage anybody who really is serious about their Bible. I know it's a lot of money, but at the same time, if you want to do this, I think it's going to be possible.

You're just going to have to work hard to get to that. But this is a trip that I've done several times before Israel, of course, with you many times before. But my wife, actually, Matt, Terry, she likes going on this trip more than she likes going to Israel. And she's going to have a spot. She's not going to go on this trip when we have a new grandbaby coming. And so she's going to be busy this next year. But if I gave her a chance to go on this and I said, want to go on this one or do you want to go to Israel?

Ninety-nine percent. She will take the Turkey, the Turkey, Greece, Turkey is her favorite country, our guide there. Her name is Chevy. And she and my wife and Chevy are good, good friends. You will love Chevy in Turkey.

Great guy. We have good guys everywhere. Are we going to go to the Bazaar that's there? Yeah, the Turkish Bazaar is the largest market in the world. And you can buy just about anything, including Turkish Delight.

You know, I mean, if you've seen Chronicles of Narnia, read the books, Turkish Delight was part of that. You can buy anything there. That's that's our best place for shopping.

Our dollar is very strong in Turkey, and that's the best place to buy souvenirs. We're going to see the Hagia Sophia again and the Blue Mosque. Hagia Sophia, you're going to be a little disappointed. Two years ago, it turned back into a mosque. It was a museum when you saw it and they took it back. And so we're not able to go to the top floor anymore.

And it's a little sad because the women have to have their heads covered. You're like you're in a mosque. And you know, that's what happened. And they they weren't satisfied with just having the they have a mosque across the way there. The Blue Mosque, it's called. But now they have retaken that.

And so it's no longer a museum. Well, you know, I have a lot of fond memories from going. And I frequently will be talking to somebody online witnessing and I'll say, yeah, I've been there. Seen this.

That's not like that. This this. It really does make a difference, particularly the ministry that you and I both do. And I value it.

I really do. And plus, they're just bragging rights. You know, I get to say, hey, I've been to seven churches, a revelation of locations and stuff and smiling.

And, you know, it is a lot of fun. I'm just looking forward to going to Ephesus, too, because it was so impressive. I was I remember we first got off the bus and all these cats around there and we're going to be there for four hours. I remember thinking there's nothing to see here because there's, you know, a hundred feet away with some ruins. And like, well, we can see this in five minutes.

And then, OK, whatever, you know, I don't know. And we're walking and then we see this hill kind of go down and then you see Ephesus. And I still remember that first look, my jaw dropped. It was really impressive to see all those ruins. And it was quite a bit of stuff to see. I mean, it took about two hours, three hours to see it all. It was really impressive.

I'm looking forward to it. Oh, yeah, it's a long it's a lot of walking around and you're seeing the Library of Celsus is there. It was built after. But there's actually where the Library of Celsus is.

And I didn't know this in 2013, but I found out later. And we'll show you the synagogue where Paul taught actually, I'm sorry, it wasn't a synagogue. He was kicked out of the synagogue and it's called the Hall of Tyrannus. And we know where the Hall of Tyrannus is. It's nothing there anymore, but we know the location of it. So it's right to the left as you're looking at the Library of Celsus. But my favorite place there is that theater where you read that passage sitting in the theater.

And they actually have seats from 2000 years ago that are still there that are made of stone. And I love sitting there to do the little devotional. We'll have devotionals throughout. So we're not just learning history, which is important. We're not just learning culture, but we're going to be learning our Bible.

Our guides are taught to teach us about what was important regarding the Bible. So you're going to come away with an experience that's well rounded. I just think if you've ever thought about traveling, there's no better time than now because prices, inflation just keeps going up and up and up. We've got it, I think, a good price on this.

The price is $69.95 for 19 days. And one day is going to be a day off. We're going to go on a three island one day Greek cruise. That is a day off when there's nothing we're going to do with archaeology that day. And I did that back in October and everybody just loved it. It was a great break from all the traveling we had done, you know, seeing so many things and then just taking a day to be on the ocean. So we're going to do that for a day.

Just so many things. If you go on the website, bridgepaltour.com, I think that you're going to see, you're going to see a lot of things. You'll never have to go to any of these three countries again because you'll have seen most of the best archaeological site having to do with the Bible. I'm looking forward to it, but too bad it's going to be hit so far away in April. Like, no, I want to go.

Well, that's only, that's not that far. Actually, it's best to get signed up now, get it all ready. And passports are taking 13 weeks now to get.

The State Department is not doing very well with those. So I would recommend getting your passport set up because you have to have everything in place by January. And then, yeah, we'll leave. First, it's the day after Easter.

So you get to celebrate Easter at home. On the Monday, we are flying out from Chicago. Many of us here in Salt Lake will be meeting together to go over to Chicago. Thanks, Matt. I appreciate it. Hey, thanks. Appreciate you, Eric. God bless, brother. All right. Hey, folks, that was Eric from More Medicine Research Ministry does these tours.

And really, seriously, they're awesome. Looking forward to going. Hey, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, we have two open lines 877-207-2276. Alan from Virginia, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Can you hear me? Hi.

So what do you got? I think it was Revelation 21-2, where it talks about New Jerusalem coming out of heaven. Is that correct? Yeah.

Is New Jerusalem already within the heavens fully made currently being created or will it be created? Don't know. Doesn't tell us.

Simple. Can't answer. Doesn't tell us if it is, isn't or what or what. So, you know, I don't know.

So that so that likely means that it's not important to know its state at this current point, right? Well, apparently God has not decided to reveal its construction, organization, structure, time frame or anything. He's just talking about the New Jerusalem.

Now, the questions are related to this is what is the New Jerusalem? Is it a literal place? Is it a figurative place?

Because the Book of Revelation is very figurative or what? And, you know, I think the size of it like it's a fifteen hundred mile cube or something like this. So what's going on?

And there's lots of questions. And so if the New Jerusalem is a place we dwell in and Jesus says he's going to prepare a place for us, could it be then that if they're connected, that it's being constructed, so to speak? Or is that what that means? Or does it mean that New Jerusalem is the presence of the believers in heaven?

And on earth, if you move back and forth in a resurrected bodies. So I you know, I just don't know. I don't know. OK, OK. Can I ask one more question?

Sure. What is blasphemy and other different types of blasphemy? Blasphemy is speaking something against God and against the truth of God and the varying degrees of blasphemy. Some blasphemies can be forgiven and one blasphemy cannot. That blasphemy that cannot is Matthew 12 22 through 32. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which from the context certainly appears to be saying that Jesus did his miracles by the power of the evil one. And that won't be forgiven.

But other blasphemies like denying Christ is who he said he was or saying something bad about him and later on becoming a Christian of those kinds can be forgiven. OK. OK, well, all right. Thank you, Matt. You're welcome. Well, God bless. All right. Hey, three open lines, eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six, Elijah from Pennsylvania.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. My question today is this. I got another question from someone that wrote a comment. This time was on your debate that you had last year with Rodney Smith on Trinity versus oneness. And the person said, OK, the person is saying this about you.

OK. He said he just he believes that the person wasn't chosen. It's not their fault that they can't believe you.

In his view, it will be God who didn't choose them to be regenerated. But they go to hell for it. That was completely fair, right?

What a word version of the gospel. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I've I respond to that and I remember because you broke up a little bit while you were reciting that. But yeah, it's it's an unfortunate misunderstanding and failure to study the other position.

And so by the question, the way it was arranged is actually bearing false witness. And so I offered to remember correctly, remember offering to have a discussion with the person or somebody who said this. I can't remember if it was the debate. I could do so many discussions.

I can't remember them all. And the issue here is whether or not they like the idea of God's sovereignty. It's usually what it comes down to. It's a humanist philosophy woven into Christian thought. So, you know, like a type of Christian humanism and what the Christian humanists, what they want to do is say that God cannot and ought not and will not do certain things. And the reason is because they apply to God a standard of fairness that they think they understand. And when I encounter people like this, I ask them questions, diagnostic questions to find out what standard they have, where they're getting it from. And rarely is it from scripture.

It's usually their personal preferences. So I can't remember everything you said, but I remember the gist of that kind of a thing. And those are the issues related to it.

So if you wanted to ask one part of the question at a time, because we're having connection problems with you, I can try and response more specifically. Okay. Okay. Um, if the part of the question, uh, the part where he says, uh, in your view, uh, it would be God who didn't choose them to be regenerated, but yet they still go to hell for it. And yes, okay.

Let me jump in. Yeah, God does not choose or generate somebody that's his business and they go to hell because they're sinners by nature, not because God didn't choose to regenerate them. Furthermore, God has the right to do with his creation as he desires. You go to Romans 9, 9, 2, 23, and that's usually what I'll take, take them. I'll say, look, let's go look at this and see what it says. And they'll, they often respond, I'm not going to listen to your interpretation. And I say, why are you being so vitriolic for it?

What's the hostility? Let's go to the word of God and take a look at it. And they don't like that the word of God will contradict what they say because Romans nine does contradict what they say and it does flat out and I show it to them.

And so, uh, uh, people go to hell because it's where they belong. Okay. That's it. If God regenerates, that's his business of who he chooses to save. That's how it is.

They may not like it, but there is a God and they are not him. Okay. Yep. Um, yeah, so, um, that, that, uh, uh, Trinity versus, uh, one is, one is the debate that I just finished. Um, uh, you guys were talking about, uh, also, uh, what are baptism and stuff. So, um, I remember Roger Perkins said before, uh, he said that, okay, so, uh, uh, this is one of his arguments for baptismal regeneration. He said that, he said he looked at every, every single Bible translation that he could find and he said all of the translation say, uh, get baptized for the remission of sins. And, and, and this was his rebuttal to those who say, well, well, it should say baptism because of your remission of sins. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, it's unfortunate that, uh, that he, he doesn't do his homework.

Uh, it's really, it is. So he says he looks at all of the translations. Uh, but what he failed to do is look at how the phrase is used for the forgiveness.

Okay. And it's used in different, uh, ways for that. You get something happening for the forgiveness of sins. So, for example, in Mark one, four, John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. If the phrase for the forgiveness of sins means that's how you get forgiveness of sins, then, uh, what he's saying is a baptism of repentance gets you forgiveness of sins.

Now let's think about this. In Mark one, four, if Perkins and others of these heretics want to say that baptism is what gets you forgiveness of sins, then let's work with that. Mark one, four, John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So that would be John the Baptist's baptism to obtain forgiveness of sins. So we get back. I'll show you why that's a problem. Please hold on. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages. We'll talk about baptism. If you have challenges about that or questions or issues, please give me a call.

It's a topic I know quite well. We'll be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show, the bottom of the hour. Let's get back on here with baptism issues. Elijah, are you still there?

Yep, I'm still here. All right, so let me kind of back up a little bit and explain. So they'll go to Acts 2 38 and it'll say, uh, you know, get, uh, repent each of you be baptized in the Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And so they'll say the phrase for the forgiveness of sins means that's how you get forgiveness of sins. You get it for this.

That's why you do that. Okay. So the phrase in Greek is eis, uh, efesen, uh, martion. That exact same phrase occurs in Mark 1 4 and Luke 3 3. In Mark 1 4, it says, John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

In Luke 3 3, and he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. All right, so I'm going to go through this slowly because the logic is really important. They're the ones saying that the phrase eis, efesen, or martion means that for the forgiveness of sins means that, uh, that's how you get forgiveness of sins.

Okay, let's work with it. So that would then mean that when John the Baptist baptized them for the forgiveness of their sins, that they receive forgiveness of sins by John the Baptist's baptism. Okay, so if that's the case, were, was John baptism's, uh, John the Baptist's baptism true, even though it wasn't Trinitarian? Now the oneness, this question does not apply to, so we'll move along. So if the baptism of John got them forgiveness, then did they have to get baptized again later on under Christian baptism?

It's a question. I'd like to see what they have to say about that. Because if they're going to say, well, yes, they did. If they did, then why, since John the Baptist's baptism got them forgiveness? But if they say, uh, no, then, uh, the phrase baptized for the forgiveness of sins didn't really get them forgiveness of sins because they say, no, they didn't get baptized. Well, then actually what they'd be saying is, well, they did get them forgiveness, right? And so you don't need to be baptized later on under the Christian baptism.

Okay, let's work with this. Now, let's say John the Baptist, uh, he did his baptisms. Now, this is a theologically important point. They're under the old covenant. They're not under the new covenant because Christ had not yet been crucified. Under the old covenant, the Jews are obligated to go offer sacrifices.

So if you sinned, you went to the temple, you did a sacrifice. That means they're still under the old covenant, even when John's baptism was instituted. If that's the case, and they're baptized by John the Baptist for the forgiveness of sins, and they got forgiveness of sins, then do they need to continue offering sacrifices? If they say, yes, they do, then that means the baptism of John did not get them forgiveness of sins, and the phrase for the forgiveness of sins doesn't mean that that's how you obtain forgiveness of sins. If they say, no, you don't have to continue offering the sacrifices, well, then why not? Because that's the law that they're still under in the old covenant. So would John the Baptist's baptism, by their perspective, then mean that the old covenant is now no longer in effect for people?

But that wouldn't be the case because it's not ratified by John's work, but by Christ's work. You see how the problems are here? Yeah. So these are questions they don't think about, and I like to ask them, and they stumble over these questions. So I have a friend, and he says, you know, I take an aspirin for a headache.

Not to get one. Furthermore, if the issue of for the forgiveness of sins, let's look at Acts 2 38. It says, repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now, aside from the cult of the oneness, and there are many other errors, it says the order is being baptized, and you will then get the gift of the Holy Spirit. So baptism first, and you get the gift of the Holy Spirit. Except in Acts 10 44 through 48, that process is reversed. They have their Holy Spirit before they're baptized.

So wait a minute. If Acts 2 38 means that they have to get baptized to get saved, then how is it they were saved in Acts 10 44 through 48 before they were baptized? Well, sometimes what they'll do, they'll say, well, they weren't saved until they got baptized.

And I'll say, really? While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, surely no one can refuse water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can't he? Then he was baptized.

So wait a minute. See, praising God is speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Christian church. But some of these wacko baptismal generationists will say, well, no, you see, in Acts 10 44, then through 48, they had all this stuff, but they weren't saved because they hadn't yet baptized yet. So they had received the Holy Spirit the same as Peter. They're speaking in tongues and glorifying God, which the Bible says unbelievers can't do. And so they're believing in God, but yet they're not saved.

Right? And they'll say, that's correct. I said, oh, so let me ask you this. Does the Bible say we're justified by faith, Romans 5-1, having therefore been justified by faith? Then what they'll usually do is give me some big long explanation about something and I'll repeat, I'll say, I didn't ask all that, I asked. Does the Bible say in Romans 5-1, having therefore been justified by faith?

You know, I try to get them to just face what the text says. Well, yes, it does. I says, so then do you agree that we're justified by faith? Yeah, we're justified by faith when we get baptized, blah, blah, blah. You know, they jump in and I say, stop, would you just be patient? I said, the Bible says, Romans 5-1, it says that we're justified by faith.

Right? That's what it says. Okay, here's my question. Are you justified by faith when you have faith?

Because if you're not justified by faith when you have faith, then you're not justified by faith. You see? Yeah.

Yeah. The oneness position, oneness is a non-Christian cult, okay? And they add works of salvation. They add baptism for salvation and it has to be, quote unquote, in Jesus' name. They fail to understand what that really means. And then they teach you can lose your salvation, get it back and go in and out. And it's just a non-Christian cult, okay? Can I tell you one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard a oneness say?

Sure. I wonder if you've ever heard it before. Yeah, so this is a very popular oneness on YouTube who has hundreds of thousands of subscribers. Who is it? What's his name? His name is Gabe the street creature. You ever heard of him?

No. I'll check him out. And I'll challenge him. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, so he made a video saying that, you know, baptism is required for salvation.

And he said that if a person gets baptized, submerged in water in a bathtub, and if their kneecaps do not get submerged as well, then they are banned. Yeah. Yeah, that's just, I'm trying to find a right phrase here.

But I'll just use the word foolishness. So, yeah. So you have to be completely immersed. What I like doing with the baptismal generation is having fun. I'll say, well, how do you know baptism there means immersion?

Oh, man, you can just hear the carts, the wheels come off the cart. They're just, what do you mean? Of course it means immersion. I said, show me.

Show me in the Bible where it says that that's what it means. Or just reading into the text. And I have all kinds of stuff I can talk about just on that topic alone. And I can show you plenty of places where it does not mean immersion.

Seriously. So, and I show this to them, and they're not prepared for that. They are not prepared for the actual scriptures.

And I know how to respond to them and stuff and all kinds of things. And I pin them because I don't have much tolerance for this kind of blasphemy that they're teaching, that salvation is completed by your ceremony. You know, it's horrible. They don't teach justification by faith because they have a false God, they have a false Christ, they have a false doctrine of salvation. Because not only do they deny the Trinity, but they move into Nestorianism. And that's where Jesus is two persons. Sometimes the human nature is speaking, sometimes the divine nature is speaking.

He goes back and forth. And he's really speaking to himself. You know, Jesus is praying to the Father.

Well, he's talking to himself. Or it's the human nature talking to the divine nature. Well, where's the divine nature? In heaven? Yes, it's in heaven.

Well, then how is it in incarnation? You know, and, yeah. These guys are heretics and making other people heretics after them. Yeah, and another thing he likes to say, he likes to say, if you baptize in the Trinitarian formula, then you're really still a Roman Catholic at heart and you still haven't moved away from a Catholic Church. Yeah, he's a fool. Yeah, he's a fool because Jesus said to baptize that way. That's what Jesus said. It's not a Roman Catholic thing. And he's committing a fallacy of, a genetic fallacy there.

Yeah, he's foolish. Okay, I've got to go. There's a break. Unless you've got more, call back, okay?

Because I love talking about baptism. All right, thank you. We've got a break, brother. All right, hey, folks, three open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey, it worked, Chris. You made me laugh. I was reading something. I shouldn't do that right when I'm supposed to come on the air. I shouldn't do that because he says in a text, I tried to make Matt laugh when I called in and told him he mattered. Sam Shamunflop, I can't read all of it. But he made me smile, so caught me off guard right there. Let's get to, oh, man.

Yeah, what do you want? Hey, I want to tell you that the real name of Jesus is Yeshua Mashiach. Women can be pastors. Black people never own slaves. Democrats are on them. You live in a parallel universe someplace. It's all whacked. Oh, man. I, like, rolled all your callers into one.

How to tweak Matt Slick. Wow. I got you good, right?

Yeah, well, I'm smiling, you know. Yeah, it's pretty good. That was an interesting set of calls yesterday about the racist stuff.

That was interesting. But, yeah. Oh, gosh. And they're always called this, man. They always just turn out to be an occult. Yeah. Well, you know, people want to believe themselves rather than God. That's why you get cults.

Yep. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, you know. One that's Pentecostal.

Christadelphianism. At any rate, it goes on and on. So, big guy, do you have a question? You got a question? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, no, I got a question. So, Genesis 32, when Jacob wrestled with God. Can you use that as an apologetic for Jesus being God?

I mean, he was. Yes. Was he not wrestling with Jesus?

No. Jesus did not come into existence until, well, after this. Jesus, by definition, is the incarnation.

Oh, two natures. The incarnation hadn't happened yet. So, what you could say is it was most probably the pre-incarnate Christ. And there's always the possibility of a representative angel in that place.

But, yes, you can use it for that. You have to study it and see what's going on. Because, after all, excuse me, they never see the Father.

So, who are the wrestlers? Well, then, in the chapter, it says he sees God face-to-face. Yep, in verse 30. That's right.

He calls the place Penuel. Yep. That's right. So, is that word there Yahweh? No, the word God is Elohim there. Okay. Okay. So, the word capital L, capital O, capital R, capital D is Yahweh.

So, what it says there, they saw, I've seen God face-to-face, yet my life has been preserved. And so, that's what it is. So, yeah, it's a good place for using, for discussing the issue, I'll say. Okay. It is. All right.

Okay. But it can be, it's probably a Christophany, right? It probably is a Christophany. And there's questions, well, what, God couldn't beat him? You know, what's going on behind the scenes here? Why is it that this wrestling is occurring?

What's going on? There's, you know, a special message that's there. So, there's a lot we could talk about. But, yeah, it's a good place. It's one of the good places to go to, to discuss the issue of the deity of Christ in a pre-incarnate sense.

Okay. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, because I, yeah, I was reading through my daily Bible reading, I saw it, and I was wondering, this would be great with Jehovah's Witnesses and not oneness guys and stuff. Yeah, well, a lot of times what they're going to do, though, I'll be telling you, that they go into this thing, well, there are places where the angel of the Lord represents Yahweh, has his name, and so it could be the same thing. And so they'll do that. So then you'd have to go into a little bit more deeper examination. But, yeah, Genesis 32, 30 is worth examining, looking at the context, and having a discussion about it, and then having it go to other places as well.

So, yeah, it's definitely worth it. Okay? Okay. Yeah, hey, you got one more question?

Sure. Yeah, hey, so I'm meeting with, like, I'm trying to plan this thing with these Mormons. I might be meeting with, like, three of these young Mormon missionaries, maybe a couple from the church in there.

It might be, like, me on, like, you know, one on five. What was that verse? Yeah, what was that thing that you would say that you were like, yeah, it's ruined many Mormons' missions.

What was that thing that you always talk about? Well, there's two main things that have really destroyed their testimonies. One is going to 1 Timothy 6, 16, where it speaks of the Father, who no man has seen or can see. Or Joseph Smith has not seen the Father. And then John 6, 46, Jesus says not that anyone has seen the Father. And you can go to John 5, 37 also. It says, you've not seen this form.

It's not as good, but that's another one. And so I'll say, this is what it says here. So did Joseph Smith see him? And they'll say, well, yeah, he did. I'll say, but why does Paul disagree with you? And you just politely go back and forth, back and forth, you know.

And I'll repeat the address. 1 Timothy 6, 16 says this. 1 Timothy 6, 16, because I want them to go home and look it up and go, oh my goodness, that's what it says.

The other thing that really destroys their testimonies is the book, 3913 changes in the Book of Mormon, because they pray about the Book of Mormon to see if these things are not true. Okay. Yeah, I still need a copy of that. You know, it's out of print everywhere. It is. If you can find one, go to bookstores, look around. If you see it, it's like a yellow, it's yellow, okay, the covers and stuff. Anyway, if you can get it, just get it.

It costs 100 bucks. It's worth it, because it's a very powerful testimony against the reliability of the Book of Mormon and how it's been severely altered and changed. And it has.

So as it says, they say, you know, in History of the Church, volume 4, page 461, in the Mormon writings there, that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book of any book on earth, and a man can get closer to the precepts of God by following it than by any other book. And I'll show it to them. I'll say, so why is it all messed up like this? And I mean, it's bad. It is so altered. Every page, every page has changes from the original. So why do you trust this? Yeah, you got to ask, what was his name, Eric, right, at MRM?

You know, like, reprinted again. Yeah, I'm going to talk to, I'm going to have to Bill about that, because Bill and I were talking about some other stuff, you know, Bill, and about stuff, and I won't say stuff, but stuff, okay? Sure. Yeah, so we'll see. Well, okay. Wait, so Joseph Smith, he did claim to see God face to face? He said he saw God the Father. Yeah, that God the Father appeared to him with the law of Jesus.

Oh, boy. Yeah, but if you believe that, you believe what the Bible says, then all of Mormonism is simply false, because it's based on Joseph Smith seeing the Father, and the Bible clearly says he can't be seen. Well, who would they sing in the Old Testament? The pre-incarnate Christ. Simple.

It was not God the Father. And they'll say, well, it's mistranslated. And I'd say, I can translate. Translate means a written language to a written language. Interpretation means spoken to spoken. So that's what the difference is. And so I'll say, look, I can read the Greek.

I can go here, and I can check this out. And it's what it says. It's translated correctly. They're going to attack the translation, probably.

Well, yeah, they try. And I tell them I can read this. I can show it to you.

I can show you how to read this, and et cetera. It's in the Greek, okay, right here, where it's original. And there aren't any textual variants here. It doesn't make a difference. This is okay. This is what it says.

So this is accurate. So why, then, do you not believe what God's word says? And they don't.

All right, well, yeah, yeah. What they do is they trust their feelings above the word of God. And Mormons will say, no, we trust the testimony of the Spirit.

No, they don't. And the reason they don't is because the Jesus of the Bible is the one who sends the Spirit and reveals the Father, and the Father also sends the Spirit. So without the proper Jesus, you can't have the Father or the Holy Spirit who bears witness of truth. And if Jesus of the Mormon is the same as the Bible, then they'll be able to pray to Jesus, not just through, worship him, and call him Lord and God, just like they did in the Bible. But the Mormons don't do that, because they don't believe that's true about him. Therefore, they don't have the same Jesus of the Bible, and therefore, the testimony they have didn't come from God.

It came from something else that is waiting behind the veil, waiting for them to trust their feelings and open themselves up to demonic influence by saying, they'll pray about the Book of Mormon and the God of the Book of Mormon. Yeah. That's what happens. Yeah, that's good.

I'm going to use that. Hey, do you know how overworked you are? Yes, I do.

I'm having more and more fatigue problems and sleep problems now. Wait, I got to tell you this. Last week, you said, you're like, yeah, me and my wife had a great Thanksgiving. I said that? Yeah, I said it July 4th. You said Thanksgiving.

Oh, man. There's an example. There's an example of me being overworked. Yeah, I've got to say it. I was tired when you said that. I was like, man, you need a break. I need a break.

Yeah, I know what I want to do for a break too, but we'll see. All right, buddy. All right, man.

God bless. All right, I'll let you go, brother. Okay, we'll see you. Okay. All right, let's get to Luke from Washington.

Luke, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, man. How are you? I'm doing all right.

What do you got? Was Calvin a historian? No. Calvin was not a historian. So what is a historian? Are people saying that Calvinism is Nestorianism?

Well, they just don't know what they're talking about. That's all. It's just a, no, that's not it. No, they don't hold to Nestorianism. For those who don't know, Nestorianism is the teaching that Jesus and the body of Jesus are two separate distinct persons and it'll alternate talking. No, it's not what Calvin taught, not what Calvinism teaches, not what Christians teach.

They teach what's called the hypostatic union, that Jesus is one person with two distinct natures, not two persons. So anyone who says that, just like, please, you know, you're just bearing false witness. It's not true. Okay. That's all.

Okay. One more question about deliverance ministries and the fire ministries, about the Holy Ghost and deliverance ministries. There's a lot of Pentecostal ministries, especially in Africa and India.

What do you think about this deliverance? I don't know about them because you mentioned several different geographical locations. So I don't know which ones are involved where, so I can't comment. Okay. All right.

In the U.S. We have one more comment. We have another caller waiting, so I'm going to get to the other caller. Okay, buddy. All right. Let's get to Jonathan from Dallas.

Jonathan, welcome. You're on the air. You've got about two minutes left. All right. I'll be quick.

Thanks for answering my call, buddy. Sure. You know that Sam Shamone guy that we, you had a chat with, right?

Yeah. He, I told him what his deal is, like I went on his messenger and I said, what's your deal? Why are you like so hateful towards everybody else? And he called me and he was very, very aggressive towards me. He was calling me very inappropriate things, like he was telling me I'm a homosexual and all these different things.

Can you forward me that information? And he had to give me permission. Okay.

To use it. Okay. Uh-huh.

So forward it to info.com.org and to say, you know, this was emailed to you and you're forwarding it and you get permission to use it, you know, because it was yours. All right. Because I'm collecting stuff about Sam and some of the vitriolic things he's saying.

He's gone off the deep end. Yay. Thank you for agreeing with me, buddy. Thank you. I feel he's no follower of Christ anymore. Yeah.

Nobody would ever call me anything like. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's insulting, condemning, mocking. Uh, this is not the fruit of the spirit, not following up for Christ. He doesn't take correction in this area. Uh, something's wrong and there's either a medical thing going on or he's got, uh, well, you know, it's possible, or he's just never been saved or, uh, uh, things have come down on him so hard that he's just overstressed.

I mean, there's a variety of possibilities, but he's gone off the deep end. So email that to me. Okay.

Send it to me. All right, man. All right, buddy. You have a very good rest of your afternoon. You too, man. Thanks a lot. God bless. Hey folks, we're out of here. By the way, I'll be teaching a Bible study live on online tonight in two and a half hours. Go to karm.org forward slash calendar. And I'll put the information up for there for tonight. God bless. We'll talk to you tomorrow.