Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome to the show.

Hey, it's me, Matt Slick, on your list of Matt Slick live. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. If you want, you can email me at info at KARM.org. We're being broadcast right now on Clubhouse. Hope they can hear me in there.

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877-207-2276. Last night, on Wednesday nights, I've been doing this now. I don't know how long I've been doing it. Six months, I guess. I don't know. What I'll do is I'll go on to Clubhouse and assist an AMA.

Ask me anything. And so I was talking to the Unitarians. Okay, I got to be careful because it's a universalist, but it's not universalist. Those are Unis.

I call those Unis, but Unitarians, they are manifesting like a swarm of locusts trying to come over the spiritual landscape, devouring whatever they can, destroying people's lives, spiritual truths. And so I have been dealing with them and it was quite, I thought it was an interesting time last night. And so what I do, this is what I always do, when a new kind of something kind of comes up and then I create an outline and then I just take notes from what they say. I learn from their arguments. And that's what I do. And a lot of times what happens is I'll just do this for a while, sometimes weeks and weeks and weeks, just get information and then all of a sudden click. I see, I know what the principles are, all of them, how to undermine, what the major things are, what the major issues are, and it's starting to happen.

It always could happen because they're not telling the truth. But it was interesting. And I've discovered that what they do is they use the shades of meaning and shades of interpretations of possible scriptures, and then they put them together.

So get this. So imagine a bunch of circles that are light gray and then you kind of intersect more and more of them over, not that they're always on top of each other, but they're intersecting. The intersecting area becomes darker and darker, and that's what they're doing. They go to these gray areas and they'll say, like, for example, the Son of God, Jesus is the Son of God. When I go to Mark 1, 1 through 4 and talk about this with this, about the Son of God means that he's God the Son.

I show it, make way. They have all kinds of ways to say, no, it's not that, it just means that Jesus has God in him, so that's what it really means. It doesn't mean it was Jesus that they're talking about, but Jesus is the representative of God, so therefore it's really God in him that they're making the way of.

That's what it really means. So they do these kinds of things. And then they'll tell me, and this is what's kind of fun, they tell me that, I think it's in Genesis 17, they'll make Moses, as Moses was God to Pharaoh.

See? That's how Jesus was God to the Pharisees. And I say, well, wait, wait, wait, and they do this. And I enjoy, well, to me, I enjoy heresy, but I enjoy the, it's sad at the same time, but I enjoy the attempt that they make to try and rest the scriptures to their own destruction. I mean, I've always enjoyed heresy. That's just kind of the way I'm put together. And so I enjoy listening to it because to me it's information and it's interesting.

And I categorize and they help me to put together stuff. So what I did in that context is I then went to Hebrews 1, and this is where you could hear their knuckles and their toes stubbing on the corners of reality when talking about who Jesus really is, the representation. No, he's the exact representation of the nature of God and his essence. So how's that going to be if he's a son of God? And anyway, all this kind of stuff, and they are working real hard at denying who Christ is, but I've been letting them feed me information, taking lots of notes, and I've been expanding my notes on Unitarianism, and so there'll be more to come.

They infest everywhere they go to deny the true and living God, deny the true and living Christ. And I'm going to ask them later what the gospel is. We'll see how that goes. But anyway, for me, it's entertaining. For me, it's interesting. For you, you're probably going, something's wrong with that boy.

And that's true. All right. Hey, let's get on the air with Luke from Washington. Welcome. You're back on the air. Hi, Matt. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? Good. So today, let me start. First question, what are some differences between Reform theology and Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Catholicism? And also, I know that Council of Trent, what is the, the Council of Trent is the, let's do one question at a time, because you're kind of, you went to a question, then you started explaining something. So I don't know if you want me to answer a question or not. Okay.

Just answer this one. What are some differences between Reform theology and Eastern Orthodoxy and... Eastern Orthodoxy teaches works of righteousness, works of righteousness is what they teach, and Reform theology does not. Reform theology teaches limited atonement, they don't. Reform theology teaches election and predestination, they don't. Reform theology teaches you don't lose your salvation, they teach you don't lose your salvation, they teach you can't lose your salvation. Those are some of the differences.

Okay. So what happened, what happened at the Council of Constance? Well, I think some of the guys tripped over a couple of stools once, and then there was somebody who wasn't feeling right. I think a couple of guys got in an argument in the back room, and some birds were flying around outside, and then there was some sunlight and wind blowing. I think that's what was happening there. So what happened at the Council of Trent? Yeah, and then also they went out and got something to eat, and they got a lot of food, and they would go out to their places, they'd rest, and they'd discuss stuff.

Oh my goodness. Well, I'm just answering your question. See, with a lack of specificity, then, you know, you get lack of a specific answer. So another thing, you know, in 1400, 1300, this Oriental Orthodox Church went to India, and they established churches. At the same time, Catholics, Roman Catholics, they're spreading their Gospels all over the world, so there are some churches in India, they are called Oriental Orthodox Church, so they're still similar to Eastern Orthodox Church, but they claim that they are the oldest church in the world, and they don't have any reformations happening, you know, whatever happened, whatever happened to Catholic Church does not affect their church. They are entirely different from Catholic Church, so they still claim that they're church.

I'm having trouble understanding you, and I'm waiting for the question, so... The question is, is Orthodox Church, that is Oriental Orthodox Church, they have three synods, and one more, I forgot, so they're claiming that they are the original church, not Eastern, not Catholic. How do you, how do you claim, their claim, or you agree, their claim? They are the oldest one, Oriental Orthodox Church.

I can tell you the Oriental Orthodox Church... Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm asking for a question. Give me a question. Give me a one-sentence question, okay? Go ahead, one-sentence question, go for it. What is your view on Oriental Orthodox Church?

I haven't studied it enough to be able to tell you, but from what I have seen, it's so similar to Eastern Orthodox Church that it also is a false religion. Okay? Oh. Okay. What, what is Biblisism?

I'm a Biblisist, what is Biblisism? Well, tell you what, we got some questions. We're going to move along.

If you want to call back, you can call back, okay? And then we'll get some more stuff there. Let's get to Dave from Texas. Dave, welcome. You're on the air. Dave, Dave's not here. Dave, are you there? Oh, man, I'm not hearing anything. Let's see.

I'll put him on hold and come back to him. Let's see, let's go to Jay from Ohio. Hey, Jay, are you there? Yes, sir. How you doing? Doing all right, man. Hanging in there. What do you got, buddy? Okay, I have a question in Titus 1 verse 6.

Me and some buddies are sitting here discussing this. And so I'll just read the text real quick. If anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers, and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination, and this is regarding the qualification for elders in the church. So if your child is not a believer, established, like, identified believer in the faith, um, you are not qualified to be another. Is that correct?

Yes, but let's talk about it a little bit because there are some issues here. Because notice it says children in plural. So then what if the pastor has, or the gentleman has one believing child, he only has one child, is he disqualified because it says children plural?

Well, we would say no, that's not what's really going on there. So we'd say if he has offspring, they should be walking with the Lord, okay? Now, let's say that the elder raises his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and they go to church, and they apparently confess faith in Christ. Then they move away, and then they become apostate, and they denounce the faith. Then is he disqualified? Right.

These are tough ones, toughies. I agree, and that's actually, that's funny you mentioned that, because that was one of the exact points that I had raised is like, so say this guy had pastored a church for 30 years, and then down the line his 50 year old son leaves the faith, and John says that that would mean he was never of, he was never in the faith. So does this guy need to, like, step down now and repent for, you know, pastoring the church unqualified? No, because we don't know what the true state is of the children, just as my children, two out of three, have renounced the faith, and we raised them in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and they would go to church, you know, and each had made professions. Well, okay, we're doing our job, we're doing what we're supposed to do, and then they've all moved out, because they're in their 20s and 30s, and two of them are no longer of profession to be Christians. So now what? I mean, that's the serious issue that, and it's not just me, there's a lot of pastors where that's the case.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we have a pastor in our church right now who, his wife is pregnant, and this was a point that I was bringing, and you might have a different view. I'm a Performed Baptist, and I know that you're Presbyterian. If he, I guess come at it from my theology for a sec, if he has a child, obviously in my perspective, I don't believe that the infant is a believing person, therefore they're not in the faith. In that regard, if a pastor has a baby, do they now have to step down since they have a child that is unbelieving?

Yeah, and that would be the, I think those are what we would call the extremes of the situation. I think it's missing the intent that his household has to be ordered. Children have got to be believers.

Infants, you know, it's not talking about that. But hey, hold on, we got a break, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show.

We have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's see, let's get back on the air with Jay from Ohio. Jay, welcome, you're back on the air.

Hey, still here. Yep. All right, so yeah, I think, remember now, so I think what's going on is the intent of the idea here is your house has got to be in order and your children should be following the faith. And that's what it is. You can't say that the infants qualify. We don't know what they do or don't believe. God grants that they believe. Philippians 1 29 and even to young children, he does that Psalm 22 9. But we can't rely on that and to say, well, we know it's the case. So what we do is we say, well, I say it's kind of like the bookends on the far young, the far old. On the far young, in the womb, newly born, are they believers?

Well, we're not going to say yes, not going to say no, but it doesn't seem like it. Now they haven't confessed. And so they're not, and pastors aren't disqualified for that reason on the young end.

How about on the old end? The kids leave the, uh, the home and then they become apostate later. That's not the fault of the, of the, uh, the pastor at that point.

His house was in order at that time. So that's what I would say. He's still able to be a pastor.

Yeah. Well that, so we, essentially we got two different perspectives going on in our church right now. Some people think, for example, the example of John Piper was brought up. I don't know if you're familiar with him and his son. His son became an apostate, like a very vocal person against the church. And we have a buddy like, well, since that's the case, now John Piper is disqualified because his adult child has walked away from the faith.

John Piper raised him in the faith, you know, trained him up in the Lord. Um, but this guy walked away. So therefore now he is disqualified and he should step down. I actually, he has stepped down as a pastor, not because of that.

I think he retired. But he was using that example of like, you know, since, since his child is not a believer now, therefore he must walk away. And the reason, Matt, because of that, sorry, I don't want to run on too long. Um, the word children there in Titus that we were looking at, it could be rendered as offspring rather than children. So his, his point for that is that like, basically that would cover, like you were just saying, the bookend of an adult child or an infant child, essentially. Um, therefore, you know, if they, if they don't believe specifically, not that they weren't raised in the faith, but if they don't believe, then the child or the guy has to step down. And I, I agree with you because I, you know, the Lord doesn't owe, just because he gave us a child, he doesn't owe to save our children. You know what I mean? We don't know if a, if a baby is, will be a believer. We don't know if an adult will ever walk away from their faith.

Uh, so I don't think that that would be the intent of that, of that scripture, but we just wanted to kind of cheer on that. Do what you thought. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a, it is a tough one. Um, and then let's just say that, uh, for example, let's say there's a man who's a very godly man and he's a seminary professor and he's been doing this for 25 years. And, uh, his son has left 10 years ago, uh, you know, moved out and then became an atheist. Has he now disqualified from teaching in seminary?

I would say not at all. You know, what qualifications are we going to be putting this to children who believe? And if it would be that literal, then you have to have two or more.

And then what do you do if the children die? You know, are they believers? What if, so I don't be literal, too literal about this, but the clear teaching is the man's house must be in order. Children who believe, I would say while they're in that house, they must be in that condition.

It would, that makes sense. And if they're not, that's a, that's the failure because of later on if they, they go, and what about this? What if a man's a pastor and, uh, he's a pastor for 30 years and then he dies, uh, what, you know, natural causes, and then, uh, his son, uh, becomes an, uh, an atheist after that. Well, does that mean that all that, what the pastor taught was not true or not good, or you have to disregard his pastorate? So we don't want to get too, um, too anal about it. And I'll tell you sometimes in the reform camp, and I personally have experienced it. They get so anal sometimes and so legalistic.

I think that they missed the, the, the feel of what God's saying. And then what do you do if another situation, let's just say you have, uh, a 16 year old girl who, um, uh, daughter, uh, and, and she gets mad and renounces Jesus or says she's an atheist for a month and then comes back. Well, does he out with that month?

What do you do with a child who has down syndrome or has certain faculty problems? Can he or she be said to be a believer? Well, then what do you do? So when people start getting like this, say, well, it has to be for all time. Wow. Okay. I remember once in seminary, we had some questions that were asked like this and I thought a wise answer was given by one of the professors. We'd like to err on the side of grace, not law. And so, uh, without violating scripture, of course, but yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, I, I agree with, and, and I, uh, I think that you're the way that you're saying that in that it's a, it's saying that these, these are, if you can't manage your own household, why would you come in and manage the Lord's house?

Right. And I think that's what we see in first Timothy three, four through five. Um, where it's talking about, he must manage his own household well with all dignity, keeping his children submissive and so on. Um, I think that's what Titus is getting at too. If you do those things, then, you know, the Lord willing, the natural progression of that would be your child is led to the faith by you.

Um, but if that wasn't to happen, you know, it's you, you did your duty still in that, but the Lord just chose not to, to save that child for whatever reason. Um, right. I think that's right. That would be the spirit of what it's saying.

So I think there's wisdom in what you're saying. Yep. Okay. Well, brother, I appreciate it, man. All right. Hey, well, thanks for listening and good discussion. Okay.

Good discussion. All right, man. All right. Well, Hey, God bless. You too. God bless. All right. Let's move on to the next one. All right, let's move over to Joseph from Louisiana.

Joseph. Welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, how are you today? Oh, you again. Okay. I'm all right. So, uh, what's up? What do you got?

I was looking in Luke chapter 12 verse 31 or 32. Okay. Yeah. I can read it.

Do not be afraid. Little flaw for your father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. Yeah. Well, who is my father?

Um, I say that's got the father. Okay. Thank you very much.

And then I'll be glad to, uh, to be found. Oh, hold on. We've got a break. We've got a break. Hold on.

Okay. This guy's a unitarian. We'll get back to him more dwelling after the break.

And we'll see, um, what he's invented this time. Hey folks, we'll be right back. Three open lines, 877-207-2276.

I'll explain what unitarianism is too, by the way, after the show, after the break. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show really quickly.

Unitarianism is a heresy that says that God is not a Trinity, that God is one person and that there's variations of it, uh, but in Jesus, of course, is not God in flesh. All right. Uh, Joseph, you still there? Yes, sir.

I'm here. Okay. All right. So what's the purpose of show me that verse? Uh, Luke 12, 32. Yeah. Jesus said your father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's the point about it? What, what, what's, which point? Well, if he was God, he would have said, I have chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. Jesus was made under the law Galatians 4, 4, and that time was Lord and the angels, Hebrews 2, 9. Therefore he was in subjection to the father and that's why he would speak like that.

Okay. Yeah. Well, he's still subject to the father being high priest in heaven.

Uh, yes. Uh, because, uh, he forever will be in that state as a high priest, Hebrews 6, 27, 25, which is why he was baptized and entered in the priesthood. And this is the, uh, price that the second person of the Trinity underwent in order to ensure our eternal salvation. So perfectly consistent with Trinitarian theology.

Okay. Yeah, that is consistent with Trinitarian theology, but I don't know if it's the truth. Well, see, I'm impressed that you said that, uh, because that's a good statement.

It's consistent with biblical, with Trinitarian theology, but you don't know if it's necessarily true. Now that's a good statement. I mean, good in the sense, not that I agree with you in his validity, I believe the Trinity is true, but it's logically good.

It's a logically good, uh, thing. I'm, I'm, I'm impressed you said that. That's good. Thank you. I'm impressed. I'm impressed.

Thank you. Go ahead. Well, the thing is, is the Trinity true? And, uh, I'll be discussing it. I'll be having a discussion slash debate tomorrow night on the web, uh, on the, with the Unitarian.

I don't even know who it is, and I can do some prep, I guess yesterday a little bit, I guess, but, um, uh, we're discussing this. Uh, so, uh, you have to understand there's something that I keep responding with to the Unitarians all the time and they continually ignore it. Jesus was made under the law Galatians 4, 4, and under the law, there was someone that he was obligated to call God. That would be the father that he was speaking of. It doesn't mean he's not God because he's under the law.

He had to cooperate with that, the requirements and limitations of that law. That's what we teach. And when I speak this to Unitarians, they routinely dismiss it, ignore it, and go on.

And I have to repeat it to them. So they have to, if you're going to, if in a Unitarian listening, if you want to tackle, you know, me or Trinitarianism, you need to be able to respond to that issue. You need to, because if you can't refute it, then you have not refuted the Trinity.

And then I'll turn around and I'll show you logical problems with the, the idea that God is one person, as well as biblical problems. Okay. And you, you, as a Unitarian, you deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, right? I deny, I deny that God came in flesh. Yeah.

Okay. So what do you do with John 1, 1, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, verse 14, the word became flesh. That means the word, which was God became flesh.

That's Jesus. So why would you deny that Jesus is God in flesh? But Jesus didn't say those words for one thing. John the apostle did, and their scripture. So why would you agree, disagree with scripture? The scripture, scribes can mess up, you know, writings.

Okay. So if that's the case, if it means it's a scribe messed up, then what you're saying is, if it's what it says is actually true, that would prove what you're saying is false. That's why you're saying scribes messed up.

Because if they hadn't messed up, that would mean your position is false. Jesus is God in flesh, right? Is that logical? It's logical.

I'm not illogical. Have you found any textual variance in any of the manuscripts of the 5,000 or 6,000 Greek manuscripts, particularly in John 1, 1, where, uh, you have, uh, any mess up and any alteration so that describe you demonstrate that as being true? Uh, more than, more than we don't talk about right now. No, you haven't. Not in John 1, 1. You haven't.

There aren't, you don't have to worry about that. So you see, that is what the Bible says. It is it. Now, do you understand something that what you're doing is you're submitting God's word to your preferences, to your desires. And each time you do this and you publicly proclaim your superiority over scripture, and then say that now the Bible's corrupted. Each time you do this, a little bit of judgment falls upon you and the hardness of your heart.

And you will continue to reply. Let me ask you, if you sin against somebody, don't you have to go to that person to get forgiveness? Isn't that the way it is? That's the way it's explained. Yes.

Okay. Well, since you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, why does the Bible say to go to Jesus to get forgiveness? It doesn't say that.

Yes, it does. Jesus says, come to me, all who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11, 28. He says in John 14, 14, ask me anything in my name and I will do it. All authority has been given to him in heaven and earth. Matthew 28, 18. So since he has all authority and he forgives sins, Luke 5, 27, 40, I think it is, or so the 42, 44, then you need to go to the one who has all the authority to forgive all those sins.

He certainly does that. So why are you disagreeing with scripture then? I don't disagree with what Jesus said. Well, Jesus says, come to him. Jesus forgave sins in Luke 5, 20. He flat out did it. Yeah.

And Jesus said, if I don't forgive that my heavenly father won't forgive me. Yeah. Well, you're not focusing on the issue. You just switched.

Like I said to the guy last night when I was talking to him and I really enjoyed the, the response I gave at one point, I asked him a specific question and what he did was, uh, I said, Ben, you didn't realize what you just did. I says, you got to dump, you got to attract or dug up the goalposts, work, move to the other side of the field, then replanted it. And then I said, we just moved the goalposts. You changed the issue here.

So you're not focusing on what the issue is. I keep showing this to you and you keep rebelling against God's word. Now you're saying God's words corrupted. It's corrupted when it disagrees with you. You you're like a Muslim. You have the same arguments myself. Uh, that's not true.

You know what? Yes, it is true. Muslims say that the Bible has been corrupted. Muslims say that Jesus is not a God. They say he's a creation. He's a prophet. They say he represented God. There's only one person in God.

This is Islam. You're teaching the same thing, but there's only one God that Jesus talked about. Um, well, you can go to those verses that you want to do, and then you can ignore the ones that I give you. John one, one of verse 14, Hebrews one, uh, eight, but of the son, he says thy throne. Oh, God is forever and ever. He's calling Jesus God. In what sense is Jesus God?

Maybe I don't understand that. Well, in the sense that God calls him God, because what that verse, that's a quote from Psalm 45 verse six in that verse there says your throne. Oh God. That's the word Elohim is forever and ever. It's an address to God. It's God, your throne.

Oh God. That's what is in the Hebrew. And the writer of Hebrews quotes that and Hebrews one eight, but by the son, he says, okay, that's the father speaking your throne. Oh God, reference this. You'd reference to the son out of Psalm 45 verse six, which is specifically talking about the God of Israel. Your throne. Oh, God is forever and ever. And also look at this. Jesus.

That's right. He would cause he is God in flesh and Jesus, according to Hebrews one, three is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature. And he, that Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power.

How does he do that? If he's not God, how does Jesus uphold all things by the word of his power? If he's not God in flesh, can you answer that? Jesus has been, yeah, Jesus has been empowered by God. So Jesus, it does not say that he was empowered. It says he upholds all things by the word of his power. We're talking about Jesus.

It's his own power, not power given to him. It says, that's not what Jesus said, man. It's what the writer of Hebrews said. And the Christian church recognizes it as scripture. So you have to deal with this.

You see, this is the problem. When it doesn't suit you, you denounce the word of God. You alter the word of God. You have to understand this is what Eve did. She did the same thing when she said in response to God about the issue of don't eat the fruit, she says, or touch it. She just changed it a little bit to make it fit her theology. She sure did.

She sure did. You're doing the same thing as Eve. Okay, buddy, we're out of time. So you need to repent.

Study Hebrews chapter one. Hey, folks, three open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back with Rick from Five Points. You stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live.

Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. All right, let's get to Rick's live point.

Wow, it's the last quarter of the hour already. Hey, Rick, welcome. You're on the air. Rick, I'm talking to you. Am I hearing anything except radio in the bathroom?

Static? Yes. How you doing, sir? First off, Matt, I just got to say this.

Joe has nothing on you at all. You don't have to be the most patient human being on the point. But anyway, I got two quick questions. Now, we've talked about this before. Oh, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention has expelled some churches for having women pastors. You heard that, right? I'm sorry, say it again.

I was distracted for a second. The Southern Baptist Convention is affirming women pastors? The Southern Baptist Convention has expelled some churches from their organization because these churches had women pastors. Good. So they did disinvite them.

Good for them. Now, here's my question. We've talked about this before, but I'm confused. Okay.

I want to be completely suspicious. Now, Paul says in his opinion, a woman shouldn't be pastor. Okay, so what else does it say a woman shouldn't be a pastor outside of that? It does. Where does he say opinion?

That's the question. Okay, well, okay, I thought when Paul was talking to Titus or one of them, Paul said in my opinion, a woman should not be a pastor. Am I reading it wrong? Yeah, this doesn't say that. That nothing in there says my opinion, a woman should not be a pastor. But let's just say hypothetically, let's just say it did. And then that would mean that Paul's opinion trumps yours or anybody else's.

That's, you know, that's one argument. But no, it doesn't say that. Paul says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain silent before Adam was first created. That's 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13. Okay. 1 Timothy what? 1 Timothy 2 verses 12 and 13. Okay.

Okay. And that's the only scripture that talks about a woman not being a pastor? No, it doesn't say you should not be a pastor. Let me read it to you.

I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet for it was Adam who was first created. So that's what it says. Okay. So then if you go to the next chapter, Paul says an overseer, that's the Greek word episkopos, episkopos, you get bishop from it or overseer, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife. And that's andra mias gunikos in the Greek, a husband of one wife, the overseer, not addicted to wine, et cetera. Okay.

Manages household well, keep his children under control. Okay. And deacons must likewise be men of dignity.

Okay. So that's first Timothy three and the early verses, then you go to verse 15 of first Timothy three. But in case I'm delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of truth. So Paul is giving pastoral instruction on how we're to behave in the household of God because he says so.

And he has said a woman's not to teach or exercise authority in the church context. Right. Okay. Now, when you also, when you go to Timothy, uh, Titus, okay. And you go to Titus chapter one, verse five, for this reason, I left you in Crete that you said in order what remains and appoint elders. Now that's the word presbuteros.

Okay. As I directed you, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife on hermias gunikos, having children to believe. And then he says for the overseer must be above reproach. So he is relating the elder with the overseer, with the Bishop.

A lot of people don't know that, but that's what he does. And finally, one more thing just to bring it up. Okay. Second Timothy five or the first Timothy five 17.

All right. First Timothy five 17. It says this, the elders presbuteros, okay, who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. So the preacher, pastor, preacher is an elder. The elder is to be on hermias gunikos, a man of one woman or a husband of one wife. And so therefore, from all of this, women are not qualified to be pastors and elders or deacons. Okay.

I got you. Now, so is it my understanding then, let's just say a modern day term. If a pastor is a pastor of a church, he gets divorced and then remarried. Then he should step down. Is that right? That depends. Let's just say that his wife was, let's work through it.

I'll tell you how we, a lot of people in discussions over the years have discussed how this is to work. So let's just say that there's a good godly man. He's a pastor. He's got a good godly wife. And everything's going fine for 12 years. He's working in the church and he's preaching. And then let's just say that his wife starts going south and she commits adultery. All right. So does that mean he's automatically disqualified?

Well, no. Now what has to happen is he has to step aside for a little while. The elders need to say, okay, we need to get you to get right with your wife, whatever it is that's going to happen. So generally the principle would be at this point, I've talked to elders and others about it, that such a man then would have to divert his energies to the repairing of the marriage or doing what's proper in that marriage. Let's say she repents and she is confessing and he wants to make it work with her.

And let's say he does that. They go through counseling. Let's just say it takes six months, whatever. And then after the six month period, everything seems fine.

The elders seem, everything looks good. Then he's reinstated in that position and continues. But if she divorces him, it's all over.

Well, no. But if she decides to just go ahead and divorce him, then it's not his fault. So he should be reinstated in that she divorces him, right? Right.

That's the thing. Because Jesus says if anyone divorces his wife, except for immorality, and the word there is porneia. Okay. So sexual immorality.

So in this same situation, let's vary it a little bit. So now she commits adultery and she's unrepentant and she continues to do so. Well, he needs to step down for a while while working through it. He seeks reconciliation.

She divorces him. He's the innocent party here. He didn't do anything wrong. And therefore, I would say he is qualified to be a pastor. Again, I know a lot of people disagree with me, but that's what I would hold to.

Well, it's a whole lot. I got a nephew who did time in prison, but he converted. Of course, most prisons do this. Convert to Muslim or Islam. Okay. Now, and I mean, he can literally recite the Quran in, I guess it's what Hebrew? No, Islamic.

He can do it without even looking at it. Okay. But now I'm a Christian, so he and I agree to disagree. He's not going to convert me and I'm not going to convert him. That's what I just listened to with this other guy, the Unitarian. You could have talked to you blowing the face. He ain't going to convert and you ain't going to convert him. Right. Ask him. The thing that bothers me with people that call to you. Go ahead.

That's good advice. The thing that bothers me with people that call to talk to you that are dogmatic in the way they believe is good. Like this guy, he kept saying his opinion and yada, yada, yada. Every single answer.

I've been listening to you in about five years. Every single answer that you give to a person, most of the people who disagree with you, every single answer that you give them, you back it up with script, with scripture. Well, it's hard to argue with a guy when he can back it up with scripture.

This is hard to argue with unless you don't want to listen to it. Right. I, I said, I just, I just said it wrong.

I exegete the ice a Jeep. I hope nobody takes that out of context. Anyway, they read into the scriptures. I try and read what the scriptures actually say, but you're right, buddy. Keep listening, man. Okay. Good stuff. All right, man.

God bless you too. All right. All right. Let's get on the last caller. Nick from Arizona. Nick, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Nick, are you there? Women pastors in his area. That's what he's, that's what it says, but he's not gonna, I love talking about women pastors and stuff. And so I'll just hold on. I'm gonna leave him on. Let's just see if he jumps in while I'm talking. But folks, I'm going to say this boldly and with confidence. If you're going to a church that has a woman pastor, a woman elder, you need to leave flat out and you need to leave. And, uh, Hey, what do you think of this?

I'm such a troublemaker. Would any of you out there in radio land be willing to hold up a sign in front of a church that has a woman pastor? It's signed with a certain website on it.

Not necessarily CARM, but something else. I'm working on something. I'm not gonna tell you what the URL is yet, where you just be on that sign and you just go, you know, you just sit in front of a church. That's it. And, uh, then, um, uh, see what happens. So, and actually what the process would be at the call, the church or email them, contact them, I want to talk to you about the women elders, women pastors you have there. And once they, they, uh, basically dismiss you, you've done your duty. Then you go out, okay, outside. You can say, okay, and then send across the street, uh, that kind of thing. I'm actually thinking about doing that. And I'm curious because there's, there's some churches here.

There's some churches here who have women pastors and elders, and it's just unbiblical. And, uh, I'm going to work something up with a sign and a URL that I can just stand out there and they'll remember the URL. And, um, then I'll just stand out there and just hold it up. They'll come out.

I'm going to have to have a camera on me and I prefer a bodyguard because, um, uh, I guess I wouldn't need it because the, get this, the, this is true. The, um, the two, I remember when one day, years ago, okay, the guy's gone off the phone. I'll tell you these quick stories.

This is true. I contacted two churches by email, you know, can we talk about why you have women elders? And, um, and they didn't really, the first one, let's just say we talked, then they said they were going to meet with me and discuss it. Then they denied, uh, then they went back on their word. They were not going to meet with you, but you said you would. Well, you're going back on your word now.

And, uh, they didn't like that. It says, okay, I'm just going to go out in front of the church then. Oh, you're threatening us?

This is insane. Okay. They said they would meet with me. And then they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they went back on their word.

Okay. And then when I said, okay, biblically, I'm going to go to the church, you know, you're threatening us. And so I just, you know, left and I went out the next Sunday and I held out information. They called the cops on me. They called the cops on me.

It was snowing. And they called the cops on me instead of coming out and saying, Hey, are you warm? Are you okay?

You know, bless those who persecute you, right? No, they called the cops on me. And then the way home, I went to another church, uh, and the cops, I was doing everything. Okay. And I went home and at the second church, uh, let's just say that as I walked in and just, Hey, can I talk about, you know, the pastor, why women pastors? Oh, you're that guy with the email.

Yeah. Well, let's just say that, uh, I ended up outside the church, walking backwards in a martial arts dance as I was going to my car because of the verbal accusations, the yelling and the stuff that was going on. I felt physically threatened and, uh, I was, there was lying going on.

It was ridiculous. You know, when you tip over people's idols, they get upset. That's right. Idols and women pastors and elders is a new Testament, or I should say a modern church idol that people are bowing before in their churches. They need to repent. Women are certainly great and they're underutilized in the church, but their position is not to be pastors and elders. And again, I'll debate anybody on it publicly.

Does the Bible teach or support the idea of women pastors and elders? That would be the, uh, the topic. Hey, there's the music. I have got to go. May the Lord bless you. And, uh, by his grace, I'm back on here tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. Another program powered by the truth network.