Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody. Welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick.

You're listening to Matt Slick live. Oh, you're all having a good time and a good day. It's a nice Thursday. Let's see June 8th, 2023.

June 8th, 2023. All right. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 8772072276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. And if you want, you can email me just as easily. Maybe easier.

I don't know, but it just depends. All you got to do is email me at info at karm.org, info at karm.org, and we can check out the radio questions. One just came in, and so I'll be looking at that. There you go. Hey, if you want to give me a call, like I said, 877-207-2276.

If you're new to the show, you're not sure what it's about, I'm a Christian apologist. Matt Slick is my real name. I was born with that name.

I learned how to run as a kid because of it. Yes, I did. And so I'm Reverend Slick. How about that? It just does not sound good, but that's okay. So I answer questions on biblical theology, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, UFOs, the occult, evolution, science, logic, philosophy, biblical doctrine, theology, Bible difficulties, atheism, all kinds of stuff.

New Age, I've been doing this since 1980, and I love doing it, and what a privilege it is. So, hey, there you go. All right. Oh, and somebody baptized by Jesus came in, and no, baptism is not necessary for salvation, folks. If you think it is, you're wrong. You should get baptized, but it's not necessary in order for you to be saved. Okay?

It's not necessary. So a lot of people out there, they add works to salvation. They try and, it's so arrogant, it's so conceited, they try and actually keep themselves right with God by their efforts. You know what? I know that Jesus died on the cross.

I know he's got him flushed, but you know what? I got to be baptized to finish it, because what he did wasn't sufficient in and of itself to save me. No, there's something I got to do, and I have to keep myself right with the infinitely holy God. How? Oh, by my goodness. Oh, yeah. That's called arrogance and pride and foolishness.

I know. I step on toes, too. It's one of the things I do on the show. I say, hey, bring your toes. I'll step on them, and we can talk about all kinds of stuff. And if you don't like it, oh, well, okay.

What do you expect from a guy named Slick? Okay. Hey, give me a call.

877-207-2276. All right. Let's get to Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina.

Rudolph, welcome. You're on the air. Yes, sir.

I called today Michael Brown. The question about whether or not the soul was in the Sanhedrin. I told you about it.

Wait, wait, wait. I didn't understand you. I didn't understand. What I heard was whether or not the soul was in the Sanhedrin. What?

That's not what you said. Yeah, I called. Hello? Yeah.

Okay. I called you and asked you was Saul in the Sanhedrin. Oh, Saul. Saul. That's Saul. Okay. What did he say?

Saul. I'm sorry. It's okay. Yeah. Michael Brown said he was not. Okay.

All right. Well, he would know. He's the expert. He knows about Judaism far more than me.

He's forgotten more today on Judaism than I've ever learned on it. So I would trust him. Yep, absolutely. Good for you for checking in. Okay. Well, you know, sir, thank you for helping me with that.

So you take care. Have a good weekend. God bless you.

Bye-bye. You too. God bless, man. God bless. All right.

Hey, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Man, it was something I was going to do when I forgot what it was. I hate it when I do that. Man, but it does happen.

All right, let me do this. Let me get to some hate mail for tomorrow. And that's another thing. What is with people not sending me hate mail anymore? I like hate mail. Maybe the hate, the people who do that, the, the, uh, the mail for the entry emails, maybe just maybe, I just thought of something.

Just maybe they're filtering it out. Maybe they don't know that I like hate mail. I want to hear it. I get to read it over the air. I think hate mail is awesome. I do.

I like it. So anyway, if you want to email me, all you got to do is email at info at karm.org. Let's check out this. Let's see. Let's see. Okay.

It's a long email here with a lot of replies. The Unrighteous Steward. I can explain that if you guys want to know what it's about, why it is there out of Luke 16. I understand the story, but I'm having trouble understanding the meaning. What is Jesus explaining here using the story of the parable?

Tell you what I'll do. Uh, I will go through that parable after we do the caller and I will explain what the parable is of the Unrighteous Steward and why it's important. If you understand the cultural context, then you'll understand what the parable is about. And this is the parable about the, the Unrighteous Steward who lied and used deception in order to get himself taken care of.

And Jesus praised him for it. But you got to read the context. You got to know what's going on.

That parable has been criticized by a lot of people over the years and, um, I'll get to it in a bit. Let's get to Ralph from, uh, North Carolina. Ralph, welcome.

What's up, man? Hey, thank you for taking my call. And I, this is the second time I'm actually listening to you. Okay. And, um, I appreciate you because I'm trying to learn and I'm very respectful because you say people be calling and saying the most rude things and hate letters and stuff.

But anyway, the reason why I'm calling is because you just said something a few minutes ago. Um, you don't have to be baptized to have salvation. And I was raised as a Pentecostal, you know, as a Christian. Um, and then as a Catholic for my mother, and every Friday we went to church and got, you know, a fish and stuff.

But now I'm my own man now. So I learned about being baptized according to Acts 2 and 38. Um, and Peter said that to be baptized, repent for your sins and be baptized in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I just want to know because there's so many preachers and so many things going on in this world.

So I would appreciate it if you could just enlighten me. Sure I will. You ready? So, the context of Acts chapter 2 talks about the tongues of fire on the people in Acts chapter 2 verse 2. Now before I continue, has anybody ever shown you the context of Acts 2, 38 and read through the context to show you what it means?

Or they just do the one verse? Have you ever done that? No, you know what, I'm not a Bible scholar. No, no, I just asked if they've shown you the context, okay?

No, but I'm going to ask when I go to church tomorrow, I'm going to ask them to show me the context of it. One other thing, with respect please, my phone is going to be dying, I'm charging it. And it resides, please don't think I'm being rude and hanging up on you. But I don't have too much bars left, two bars left. That's alright, no problem man, no problem.

So let's go in and if it dies that's okay, I'll just keep teaching through the break and everything. Alright so the context of Acts 2, 38 of course is Acts chapter 2 and that's where the tongues of fire come on people in verse 2. And they are then speaking with other tongues, that's verse 3 and verse 6 and verses 8, 9, 10 and 11. This is the fulfillment of what was prophesied in Joel where the Holy Spirit is poured out on people.

The pouring is very important. That's Acts 2, 16 through 18 talks about that which is recorded in Joel 2, 28 to 32. So what Peter is doing is quoting the book of Joel about the pouring of the Holy Spirit upon the people there at Pentecost. So it's the promise of the Holy Spirit that he has poured forth, that's what he says. This that which you see, both see and hear, that's in Acts 2, 33.

So he's getting to the point where he's going to talk about Acts 2, 38. So Peter preaches a mini sermon about Jesus being crucified and resurrected in verses 22 through 36. Jesus had, quote, received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. He was poured forth, he has poured forth this which you see and hear, Acts 2, 33. So Jesus received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at his baptism. So it was an anointing, the pouring forth of the Spirit. A lot of people think, or they don't think I should say, about what this means about the Holy Spirit pouring forth.

Well, what is it? Because that's the context of Acts chapter 2, the pouring forth of the Spirit. And then they said in regard to the sermon, they said, well, what do we do? And they asked it in regard to Peter's words, his sermon. Peter tells them to the Jews, that's right, he says, to repent, be baptized in Jesus' name. That means his authority and power, and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift which is in the context was demonstrated by the charismatic gifts.

That's what's going on there. Furthermore, when you go to Acts 10, 44 through 48, the sequence is reversed where the Gentiles were baptized after they had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. A lot of times these people who quote Acts 2, 38, I know a lot about this verse, I keep talking about it for 20 minutes. What they'll do is they take it out of context.

They don't read the context, and then they don't even apply it properly. Acts 2, 38 says, repent. That's the whole house of Israel, verse 36. And be baptized.

Well, what does that mean? What is the baptism that's being talked about there? And I ask this because does it mean water baptism, or does it mean spiritual baptism? It's just a question that needs to be asked.

It needs to be examined. But I think it's leaning towards water baptism, but nevertheless. And it says, in the name of Jesus Christ, the baptismal formula is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not quote-unquote, in the name of Jesus Christ. So he's talking in shorthand here about the authority that the baptism is to be done in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say you'll receive the Spirit. You'll receive the gift of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives gifts.

He's going to give you a gift. You'll receive that gift from him in your baptism. Except that this is reversed, like I said, in Acts 10, 44 through 48, where they're speaking in tongues, which is what is happening in Acts 2. They're speaking in tongues and glorifying God, and then they're baptized. And Peter says in Acts 10, 44 through 48, he says, who can refuse baptism but to these who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

Can he? And so this is what's going on there. Furthermore, when you go to Acts 2, 38, it says, I ask people, is this a formula for salvation? I ask it all the time, and they'll say, well, of course it is. I say, well, if it is, how come no word of faith is in there?

If it's a formula, we have two issues. The word faith is not there. Furthermore, the name of Jesus Christ. That's what it's saying.

It's not literal here. What's going on is Peter is calling the house of Israel to repent and be baptized as a public declaration, as a covenant sign by the authority of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And I'm going to talk about that in a second here. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. We'll get to the for the forgiveness of sins after the break, because we're almost out of break. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Well, are they saying then that if baptism is necessary for salvation, they go to this verse, are they saying then that you don't have the Holy Spirit till after you get baptized? But how is that possible, since the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us of our sin and points us to Christ?

So it makes no sense what they're saying about the verse when you start asking a lot more questions. And there's the break. So what I'm going to do is put you on pause. We'll go through the break, and then I'm going to come back and talk about the phrase es efesen hermartion, for the forgiveness of sins in the Greek.

We'll talk about that, what that means, and how it's used. Okay, I'm going to... I'm going to put you on hold, so you just stay or go, because I've got to do that. I've got to hold on. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show. Hey, Ralph, are you still there? Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

All right. So did you get what I said? Because I got more to say, but did you get that so far?

Not yet, but like I told the gentleman earlier, listen, you said so much, and I didn't even realize I should have had a pest on paper, but I'm driving. I need to write these things down so I can go further and review what you told me. Tell you what, I've got an easy solution for you. You email me at info at karm.org, and I will copy my notes and paste it in the email and send it back to you, okay? Okay.

Not a problem. What's your email? What time do you come on every day, please?

Tell me. I'm on during this hour every day, Monday through Friday, this hour right now. Okay, because I get off work at 5, and on my way home, I normally tune in to you. Okay, good.

So like around 6 o'clock. All right. Okay. So let me read some more. Let me go over some more, okay? But you email me. I'll just say, hey, can I have that information on baptism?

Anybody who emails me about, can I have the information on Acts 2-38, I'll just copy and paste and give it to you. No big deal, okay? All right? Yes, sir.

Okay. So here's some more information, okay? So this is what the mistake that they make. They say, for the forgiveness of sins. They're saying, well, you do it in order to get forgiveness of sins. Well, let's apply that, okay? The Greek phrase is eis efessin haemartion.

That's what it is in Greek. The exact same phrase appears in Mark 1-4 and Luke 3-3. We'll get to those in a little bit. Well, I'll get to it right now, I guess. In Mark 1-4, John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Interesting. And Luke 3-3, and he came into the district around Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Well, then we've got to ask questions. If the phrase for the forgiveness of sins means you get forgiveness of sins by that act, well, then I've got questions.

And here I'll slow down for this. John the Baptist's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, just like it says in Mark 1-4 and Luke 3-3. The same phrase is used in Acts 2-38, be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. So if they want to say the phrase for the forgiveness of sins means it means that you're getting forgiveness of sins, then we have to ask, did John's baptism for the forgiveness of sins grant people forgiveness even though it was not a Trinitarian baptism? That's a serious question. I have to ask them.

Let's see what people say about that. If it got them forgiveness of sins under John's baptism, then did they have to get rebaptized later under the Christian baptism? Because if it already got them forgiveness, they would be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit later on. If, yes, they do need to get rebaptized, well, then why, since they already have forgiveness of sins, and these people say that the baptism is what gets you forgiveness of sins from Acts 2-38. Let me see them answer these questions. If they say, well, no, it didn't, then they got that problem.

Okay, well, we got the fact. If baptized for the forgiveness of sins got them forgiveness, here's another question. Before Christ is crucified and the phrase for the forgiveness of sins in Mark 1 for Luke 3-3 by John's baptism, John the Baptist's baptism, if it got them forgiveness of sins, well, then did they still need to go offer sacrifices in the temple even though Christ had not yet been sacrificed? Because the Old Testament covenant is not abrogated until the death of the Messiah in Hebrews 8-13 and 9, 15-16. So if they say they still have to offer sacrifices, well, then they're saying John the Baptist's baptism didn't forgive them. But if they say that it didn't forgive them, then why are they saying that Acts 2-38 baptism forgives them when it's baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and they say for the forgiveness of sins means that's how you get forgiveness. But the same phrase, it would be of John the Baptist, the exact same phrase, exact same phrase in Greek. Well, then doesn't that also mean you get forgiveness of sins by John's baptism? If that's the case, well, then do they offer sacrifices?

These are technical questions. I want to see the answer. Go ahead. Can I say that you said, you know, forgiveness, be baptized for the forgiveness of your sin, but did he say repent first? You have to repent. Of course.

We all repent. That's a whole other thing. Let me tell you.

Let me tell you. Repentance doesn't get you forgiveness of sins. Did you know that? No, you repent and act for forgiveness.

Yes, you're correct. Repentance, however, does not get you forgiveness because repentance is compliance with the law. If you're lying and God says to repent of that, you stop lying.

You're complying with the law, which says don't lie. Repentance isn't what saves us. I'm not saying it's okay to continue to sin. We need to repent.

We should. But it's not the combination of things that gets us saved because if people say you achieve salvation through your repentance and your baptism, then they're false converts because they're saying that you have to get salvation by the work of complying with the law, by the abstinence of bad things and the doing of the good things and the ceremony of baptism. So they're denying the sufficiency of the cross at that point. I could teach on Acts 2-38 and the related issues for an hour. There's a lot associated here.

So let's continue. If the phrase for the forgiveness of sins did not get them forgiveness of sins, then Acts 2-38 doesn't mean it's for the forgiveness of sins. As my friend Charlie says, you take an aspirin for a headache. Not to get one.

I take an aspirin for a headache because I have it. So there you go. Now, if the baptism there did not get the forgiveness of sins, then the phrase baptized for the forgiveness of sins doesn't get anyone forgiveness of sins, does it? It would be more in line with being baptized as an identification with the forgiveness of sins or identification with Christ, the same way that baptism is an identification with different people and things. For example, people were baptized into Moses in 1 Corinthians 10-2 when they went through the Red Sea. They're baptized into Christ, Romans 6-6, Galatians 3-27. They're baptized into his death, Romans 6-3. Baptized into one body, 1 Corinthians 12-13.

It deals with identification publicly. That's what's going on there. But these heretics who teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation are teaching a false gospel. There's more I can go into on this. I can go to John 3-8, 1 Peter 3-21, Acts 22-16. I can go through it.

I can even show you how Jesus was most probably sprinkled at his baptism according to the Old Testament law which he had to fulfill in order to enter into the priesthood. I can show all kinds of stuff about this that people just don't think through. Okay? And send in my notes if you want, okay? Well, this is really a lot for me to process.

I mean, totally a lot. And it's definitely not going to happen in one day. I see right now I'm going to have to. But what I would like from you right now, because I have pulled over, I would like for you to be so kind, one more time, to say your email, please. Yeah, just info at karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. And if you stay on the line, the guy on the producer can help you. Okay, thank you. But we've got a break, so I've got to go.

But it's info, I-N-F-O, at karm, C-A-R-M, karm.org. Okay? Hey, we'll be right back, folks.

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Welcome back to the show. So I study baptism quite a bit, actually, and I'm still, over the years, working out theological perspectives regarding it. And I can make the case from scripture, seriously I can, that Jesus was baptized by sprinkling, and that shocks a lot of people. And I can make the case also that baptism doesn't always mean immersion. I can make the case from scripture on that as well.

And I've had people over the years say, no, you can't. Let's just talk. Let's just talk. Let me run some stuff by you. Let's turn here to this verse.

What does this mean? I now show them context, and I've had the majority of them say, wow, I've got to admit, I've never seen those things before. I say, do you see why I say what I say?

They go, yeah, I see what you're saying now. And do you agree? I don't want to agree yet. So I say that's okay.

But I want them to understand it's not a monolithic view that baptism automatically means by immersion. It doesn't. I can show that from scripture.

I can't. That's easy to do. But what gets me is like the pre-trib rapture thing where everybody just automatically just spits out the same thing.

Two men or two, one of the fields, one of the taken, that's the rapture. No, it's not. And they'll say, well, baptism always means immersion. No, it doesn't. It's just this stuff that people just automatically assume.

And I wish they wouldn't do that. But just study, ask questions, you know? That's what I say. Oh, so much heresies, a little time. Let's get to Jay from Sydney, Ohio. Jay, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, Reverend Slick, how you doing, sir? I don't get called that very often, but I'm doing okay. I heard you say that the other day, and I thought that was pretty good. Yeah, you know, it just does not have a ring to it, Reverend Slick. But you know, once I got to say this... Got a Joel Osteen vibe there.

Yeah. You're cracking me up. Joel Osteen vibe. I got to have my guest speaker, Reverend Slick, come up. Well, you know, once I was asked at a church to preach on tithing, and so I said, okay, Reverend Slick, here he goes preaching on tithing. Oh, boy. So I had a lot of fun with it, and the congregation enjoyed it.

But at any rate, at any rate, so what do you got, man? Awesome. Yeah, so, okay, when I first was saved, the Lord was kind of drawing me in through... I guess this is my summation of it now, looking back. I was getting really into, like, conspiracy theories and stuff like that. Oh, good.

I like them. I believe that the Lord was using that to kind of, like, prepare me to receive the gospel, essentially. And this went over, like, a process of years.

And I recently, in the past year or two, I've been kind of looking back at all of that stuff and picking it apart biblically a little bit. Yes. I have a question.

Okay. Is it possible for somebody to sell their soul to the devil? Sell?

I wouldn't use the word sell. I do believe that it's possible for people to work in cahoots with the devil. Just think of the Democrats, the leftists, the LGBT mob.

Just think of the Marxists, the fools that are in work with the enemy. It's certainly possible to make a deal. Now, I'm not saying to do it knowledgeably, but it's possible that some are knowledgeably giving themselves over to the evil one on purpose. Okay.

Right. Yeah, and that's kind of what I'm thinking right here is Ezekiel 18, 4. Behold, all souls are mine.

The soul of the Father as well as the soul of the Son is mine, and the soul that sins shall die. Some of these people that I used to follow in the conspiracy theory realm, they present it as if somebody is knowingly like, I will trade you my soul devil for riches and fame and what have you. There's probably people who will do it.

There probably are. Yeah, and I don't doubt that, and I agree with you that people, knowingly or unknowingly, can do things in service to the devil to gain a worldly gain of some sort. My question, though, is since once you sin one time, your soul is indebted to hell. You are now worthy of hell. Hold on, let me correct you. It's not because of a sin, it's because of your nature.

We are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2-3. Sure. Yes, I agree. Okay. But my point is that the devil doesn't have any authority to withhold your soul from God if God were to save you or something like that.

Oh, of course. That's just kind of how it's presented in the conspiracy theory world, I guess you would say. And it's funny because I didn't know this stuff when I was, you know, unsaved, and I had no way of examining these claims or anything like that. And now I look back at these guys who kind of are in that world or whatever, and they don't even preach the gospel or anything. It's all just kind of like entertainment sort of, you know.

It's kind of like reverse tabloid stuff where you're just ripping on celebrities and insinuating things for entertainment, you know what I mean? Yes, there's a lot of that going on. I don't know how long you've been a Christian, but the Christian faith in America overall is moving towards apostasy. There's a lot of good preachers out there who are holding to the truth, but overall it's becoming ineffective as is obvious in culture. And we're losing the cultural war overall.

And I believe it's because we aren't being biblical, but that's another topic. But yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff out there and a lot of stuff. I love conspiracy theories. I've always enjoyed them.

In fact, there's one I want to read. Have you ever heard of the Anunnaki? Oh, yeah. I love the Anunnaki theory. Reptilian aliens and underground Nazis. All that good stuff. Yeah.

Well, you know, it's funny. I don't know if you follow them or anything, but I watch this show, Cultish, through Apologia Studios. And they kind of go into that, like examining some of that stuff from a Christian perspective, you know. And I think that's really fruitful because I do think that the Lord uses that sometimes to kind of like, you know, more or less make people aware of like a spiritual realm, I guess you would say.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's important, though, because when I was getting into it, I was really getting like very interested in like the occult and stuff like that, and I had no guard over my, you know, I had no protection over my soul at that point. And I actually ended up joining the Freemasons when I lived in Texas.

Yeah, yeah. I was an entered apprentice, so I was like just at the very beginning level, I guess you would say. But I look back now and I see that progression of like, I was so interested in it, but I wasn't born again. And I was just kind of being like led off into that realm. And I brought up the cultish thing because they make a point on that with UFOs specifically, like there's always, there always seems to be a connection when people get really into that stuff that it like pretty much always leads into like New Age thought and occultism and stuff like that, you know what I mean? Yeah, I've been studying UFOs for years and years and years, and there's absolutely definitely an occult connection. The fact that UFOs, these aliens or whoever, whatever, they teach theology, and the theology is that Jesus is not God, we're all divine and reincarnation is true. And you obtain UFO connections through meditative processes, which are the same ones used in the occult in order to summon the dead in contact spirits.

This is the practice. Similar stuff in the New Age movement. I know I used to be involved in the occult years ago. And I've studied the New Age movement extensively, and it's coming back, it's just coming back in a different name. But yeah, I know quite a bit about it, but yeah. Did you have a question now?

Another question, or do you have anything? It was just about Ezekiel there. Basically, does somebody have the authority to sell their own soul to the devil? That's a good question, because we get into the literalness of selling, but I would say that there is a degree to which a person could commit to serving the evil one rather than goodness, rather than God. And that they could do that. And I believe that the majority of the Democratic Party here in America is doing that, a lot of the Republicans are. We have the people in the LGB2 alphabet mob that's going crazy.

We have the Marxism going up. I mean, I just believe in demonic forces working well and properly through them. That's what I believe. Sure. Yeah, no, I totally agree, man. Okay, well, we'll keep talking your ear off then. That's all right, Jay, man. There's a break.

Perfect timing anyway. All right. All right, brother. Thank you. Okay. Hey, after the break, we'll get to Robert from Texas on the sacrifice of Christ.

That'll be interesting. Hey, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking a call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. You know, I offered anybody who wants those notes on Act 238 to just email me.

And Sharon did. I just sent back the information, just emailed her a whole bunch of stuff. In fact, now I'm curious how many pages it is of just on Act 238 and the stuff that is related to it. I put a lot of stuff in that verse because so many people go to that verse particularly, so I wrote a lot of stuff in there. And how many pages in it is it that I put in there? I don't know. It'll come up. I think it's like 10 pages of material. Maybe more.

Maybe we'll know about that. I'll see you in a second. Anyway, hey, let's get to Robert from Texas. Robert, welcome. You're on the air. Robert, I hit the right button, buddy. You're on the air.

You're probably panicking right now. You want to say something, Robert? Robert, I don't hear anything. So let me put you on hold and we'll come back to you in a little bit.

All right. Let's get to Tony from Florida. Tony, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you, Matt, for taking my call.

Sure. I need some apologetic help. We have two very hyper-distinctationalists who have been coming to church for the last two months.

I know they got their teaching, their view from Les Feldick and Peter Ruckman. So what kind of help can you give me to talk to these gentlemen? Well, one of the things I would say is if you want right away, if you want to, you could get a phone call conversation going with them.

Put them on speakerphone. I can join in. We can have a conversation. Or we could meet on Zoom. We could do that as well.

We could talk. So I'd be willing to do that. Okay. All right. So the dispensational issue here, it depends on what area that they're focusing on and how deep they're getting into it, what they're saying. So it just depends.

Very deep. Okay. So tell you what, why don't you, because there's variation between those groups. So why don't you tell me, what's one of the things, that annoying red flag that you want to bring up?

Let's tackle it. We say that there are two or maybe more than two Gospels. No, there's only one Gospel, because the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 15, 1 through 4, brethren, I make note to you, the Gospel, not one of the Gospels. And if they're going to say they're a different Gospel, they have to show what that is out of Scripture.

And it has to be called the Langelia, the Gospel. So I'd be interested to see what they would have to say about that. A lot of times, people what they'll do is erringly say that Paul thought a different Gospel than Jesus, than the Old Testament. People will say different things. And so when people say that kind of a thing to me, what I'll do is I'll say, okay, so you're saying there's different Gospels, two different Gospels. Can you show me where that is in Scripture?

It's the first thing I do. Show me where it is in Scripture, and then we're going to look at it. Now, one of the things that they'll often do, people like that will often do, is they'll say, well, you see, it's right here, and it's in this verse and that verse, and it's over here, it says this and everything, and they go really fast. And they'll say, see, there it is. And I'll say, wait a minute, what we need to do is look at one verse at a time and see if we can look at the context of each thing and to see if your understanding of it fits the context.

And that's what we do, and it's meticulous, but that's what you've got to do. So, no, there's only one Gospel, and it's defined in 1 Corinthians 15, and the same Gospel is preached, the Old and New Testaments do with the issue of justification by faith. And by faith alone, you go to Romans 4, 1 through 5 on that, and there's other things you can say about it.

What else are they saying? Well, first of all, yes and amen. What you just said is they will definitely go through that very quickly. But, yeah, like you said, they think there's different ways of salvation during different time periods and on and on.

Okay, yeah. Yeah, and Romans 4 keeps coming up in things like this one, this particular issue. What I would do is go to Romans 4, and you need to go to verse 3.

For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. I'm going to ask them, what was credited as righteousness with Abraham? And it's going to be, they have to say the word faith. A lot of times what they'll do is they'll say, well, it was the faith that had works, you know. And I'll say, okay, look, what does the Bible say?

Not what you were interpreting it to say. It takes them a while sometimes to submit to the word of God, and I'll say it's justified by faith. So the Old Testament is what Paul the apostle uses, and then he brings the same concept to us today, right here, to the word that does not work by beliefs. His faith is counted as righteousness, which is the same statement that's being used there. So why are you saying this?

You can also go to Galatians 3, 6, it talks about this as well. But anyway, but go ahead. I've had so much experience talking with people like this that what I've learned over the years is I need them to tell me the particulars of what they hold to.

I might know, like if someone says they're a Roman Catholic, I know what to say in so many areas, but I'm going to ask them, what particular issue do you hold to that you want to talk about? And then I'll wait and see what they say. And even depending on that, I might ask them more diagnostic questions to get a more filtered, pure view of something that they have so that I can then tackle it. So it just depends. So what else have you got? Well, that's all for now, but great advice and time will tell if a phone call will ever come about.

Yeah, Rekman's not good and other guys not good. So one of the things I would do if I was talking to them on the phone, I would be as polite as I could, but I'd ask them. I'd say, you guys are Christians, right? Okay, well, what do you do to get saved? I just need to know and just see what they say. Well, you know, you've got to be good. You can't go to R-rated movies. I don't know what they're going to say, but I've had people tell me that. You can't go to R-rated movies.

You can't eat pork. Oh, okay, interesting. Or if they say, well, you know, only by justification and faith is achieved by faith alone and Christ alone. Okay, great. Great. So you believe that. Then we'll go to Abraham and his position. This is what was taught here.

And how were Adam and Eve saved? Because if they want to go dispensational, well, let's go. Because I don't believe in dispensationalism at all.

It's ridiculous. Covenant theology, in fact, you've got a few minutes if you want to hold. I'll teach you about covenant theology and why it's better. But I'll ask them about Adam and Eve. Well, how were they saved? What dispensation were they in? Because if they didn't do anything, they hid. And it was the pre-incarnate Christ who covered them with animal skins. Were they justified?

Were they saved? Because that's the question you're going to ask. And that will tell you more of their theology.

There's all kinds of directions to go with this. You get me? Do you have more information about this on your website? On the issue of dispensationalism a little bit, it doesn't come up very often whether it's hardcore individuals. I have friends who are, I call them dispies. And that's okay. They're not wonky.

They don't have a few of their gears missing. But we just disagree. But let me say this. God is a trinity. Let me go step by step and explain why covenant is the way to go. God is a trinity, which means that there are three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons. And they work in a perichordic relationship, the inter-dwelling of each other. And in Ephesians 1-4, the father elected and gave the elect to the son.

All right. This is probably what is spoken of in Hebrews 13-20 and it's called the blood of the eternal covenant. A covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties. Logic would lend us or point us toward the idea that an eternal covenant is rooted in the eternal God in the inter-trinitarian communion where there's a covenant made in the Trinitarian communion to redeem.

And we can get into more of that. The reason this is so important is because it is based on the word of God. God says it.

That settles it. And God said let your yes be yes, your no be no. Because God cannot lie and He works according to what He states. He can never lie.

He never makes a mistake. So the eternal covenant is way before anything. So a covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties. And covenants are of different types. The word in Latin for covenant is testamentum. Old Testament, New Testament, Old Covenant, New Covenant. And so God covenants with people. If you do this, then that. In fact, if you go to the Ten Commandments, they follow what's called the third millennium BC suzerain vassal treaty pattern.

And in that, the basic pattern is a big king says to a lesser king, this is who I am, this is what I've done. And then there's stipulations or rewards for keeping them and punishments for breaking the stipulations. If you read the Ten Commandments out of Exodus 20, you'll see that.

And then there's two copies. Each person or each party gets a copy of the full Ten Commandments. So they would go in the ark of the covenant, which is the footstool of God, in His presence as well as the presence of Israel. Because God covenanted with the people of Israel. God covenants. That's how He works. To say it's dispensational means we have to find in the Bible the way God works differently here and there.

But He doesn't. He works according to His word, the eternal covenant, that is manifested throughout time in different ways, not different manners because salvation is always the same by faith in God. Now, it's by the knowledge that they have of God in the Old Testament that they're not restricted compared to what we know about God in Christ post-Jesus. But they're both justified by faith.

And why? Because it's based on the eternal covenant in the inter-Trinitarian communion where the Father would give the elect to the Son, the Holy Spirit would apply their depth of work, and the means of the application is even the granting of faith to us by God. Philippians 1.29, our faith is in Christ. John 6.29.

It's His work. The dispensationalists want to impose upon the word of God these patterns that are not necessary. And they're not necessary because if you understand that God works covenantally based on His word, then it's all throughout history the different ways that He has used to manifest the fullness of the promise that He has made to save people by faith through Christ. Amen. Are you going to do on your next hour the covenantal? Well, I could, but we're done here in about two minutes or one minute now. And I'm teaching a Bible study tonight, which will be online, and then do the radio show tomorrow.

You can call it and talk more about it, talk more about covenant if you want. Well, thank you, brother. I sure appreciate your help tonight. Okay.

Hope that helps, man. All right. Well, God bless. Yes, sir. Bye-bye. God bless. Okay.

All right. Yeah, it's called covenant theology. And covenant theology is based on the issue of God's word, His commitment, His binding of Himself by what He says. Therefore, He works covenantally because it's based on His character, His word, His speaking, His commitment, His word that represents Him.

That's how it works. That's why you'll find in, for example, in the Bible the word covenant and covenants, I'm going to do a quick test here, covenant, right? Just that word occurs over 300 times in the Bible. The word dispensation only in the King James, if I remember correctly, occurs once. Not that the majority count is what makes it right, but God works covenantally based on His character, not on man's arrangement of how they think God works. He works the same.

By faith, that's how He justifies us and by His grace throughout history. Amen. Hey, there's the music. I've got to go. May the Lord bless you by His grace back on air tomorrow, and hopefully we'll talk to you then. God bless you, buddy. Have a good evening.