Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

If you want to make a call, contact info at karm.org. Well, I'll tell you, what a day. What a day.

A lot of stuff. You know, and I say that every now and then. Yeah. So it's been busy all of a sudden. That's good. It's a good thing. Okay. Let's see.

We have no callers waiting. And you know what I often do is go to the emails because there are a lot of good emails. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of good questions. Which reminds me, tonight I should be on live with Clubhouse, or Clubdeck if you're on a PC, but Clubhouse on the phone, the app.

And I do a Q&A session for about two to three hours, and that starts at 7 my time, which is 9 Eastern time. I know it's a little bit late and all that, but that's what it is. So if you're interested in checking that out tonight, you can do that.

Just look for my name, Matt Slick, and you'll be able to find where I'll be. All right. So there's that. And oh, man, let's see. I think what I want to do is let you guys know that if you are new to the show, what we do here is answer questions. I'm a Christian apologist. I defend the Christian faith and have written several books, been on radio for 18 years.

Website is karm.org. It's had millions of visitors. And that's what we do. So if you have a question on Christianity, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the like, then please give me a call. We can talk about that. UFOs as well. What else we talk about? We talk about the occult and all kinds of stuff.

We talk about politics, too, and the state of this world and how bad things are. Oh, they're getting bad. I believe that there is a – I'm just giving you my opinion. I believe that there's an actual organization that are very organized or not that organized or whatever it is that is seeking to destroy our country. And they're using the Biden crime family and liberals to do it because our country is just falling apart.

It is just falling apart. And that's what I believe. So there you go. All right. All right.

All right. And let's see. One other thing I've got to do and get going. And we're going to get to the callers. So like I said, if you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276. And you can get on the air. I want to hear from you. You have three open lines.

Let's get to Busco, Ohio. I was just in a conversation, Keith, where I asked a Christian in gospel and he didn't even know what that meant. So I wondered what Matt would say. Well, I'm sorry about it. It's all right. It's all right, man. So you're talking about asking a Christian what the gospel is?

They don't even know? Yes, Matt. I literally within minutes ago here in Dayton, Ohio, brother, I just left a man. I was having some financial advice given to me. And it just provoked a conversation. I said he told me about how he was a believer.

And he didn't tell me where he was going to church, but he faithfully, he and his family faithfully goes to church. And so Matt, I just went, oh, wonderful, tell me the gospel. Matt, it's as if I had a horn grown out of my face. And he goes, what is that?

I've never heard that term. Matt, I was flabbergasted, sir. I was flabbergasted.

So long story short, we didn't talk about finances. We talked about Jesus, and I was able to lead him to Christ, basically. Oh, praise God. Praise God.

Yes. It was kind of surreal. So I was talking to your screener, Keith, I was like, I would like Matt's perspective on why is that?

I mean, that's not the first time that's happened, Mr. Slick, with me. I've used that same, if I call it test, I just ask someone who's got a Jesus fish on their truck, or, you know, let's just say a Truth Network sticker on their bumper, and I just ask them, what's the gospel? Pretend like I don't know who Jesus is.

Matt, I get all kinds of strange answers. So why do you think that's prevalent, brother? Because the pastors and the elders are not doing their job biblically. And they can be held accountable for it by God in their rebellion against the truth of God's word.

It's always important to find out what church it goes to if you can't ever do that. United Methodist would be an example of such a bad church, or Episcopalian Church, where they won't preach the gospel, or PCUSA, Presbyterian Church, United States of America. They don't preach gospel. Christ-centered, Christocentric theological perspectives.

They teach modern philosophy, and they use God as an excuse to get people together to hear self-help idiocy. So that's what's happening. Amazing, sir. Wow.

Okay. I had a feeling you was going to answer that way, Matt, being the scholar and the apologetic that you was. But I would just like to just kind of warn your listeners that there are Christians among us who can't even answer a basic question like, what is the gospel? Lead me to Christ. That poor gentleman wasn't able to do it.

He was not able to do it. Well, let me tell you a story. I went to a church years ago back in Southern California, Orange County, and it was a United Methodist church, which I thought was a Christian church at the time, but I realize now, you know, afterwards, the denomination was just bunk. And so this guy, the pastor, was having a Christian science church meet there and give lectures and use their facility to promote Christian science. The Christian science denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, the atonement. I mean, it's a cult.

It's a non-Christian cult. And I thought this guy didn't know. And so I made an appointment to see him, and I brought documentation from the Christian science website.

I mean, they wouldn't have a website back in the day. And I brought documentation from their sources. And I still remember sitting in his office, and he said, how can I help you? I said, well, you know, blah, blah, blah. I was really polite. I said, are you aware of what they teach?

And he goes, well, what? And I told him. They deny the Trinity. I mean, I showed, you know, and the whole bit. And he said, well, you know, they have their opinions.

They still have the right to promote what they want. And I stared at him. And I said, but do you realize that the preaching of false gospel is leading people to hell? And he goes, no, that's not true.

They just, you know, whatever you believe is sincere. And I looked at him, and I actually said to him, are you a Christian? And he said, get out.

And he told me to get out of his office. I sort of got that from this gentleman to a degree, yeah. Yeah, go ahead, sir.

Sorry. No, that's it. And that was my introduction to apostasy within the, so to speak, Christian fold. And you can experience more and more of it. And the Bible talks about signs of the end times and what it is.

And they're going to go after fables and false doctrines and human wisdom. That is so true, sir. Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, hopefully this man, it was an amazing ending, Matt, because he ended up taking down a whole bunch of Bible verses that I told him to go and look and research.

Good. And I said, sir, I said, really don't just read them, but actually study them, look into them. I said, if you're able to comprehend numbers and figures, you can definitely comprehend biblical concepts. And it's almost as if a light bulb went off, Matt.

It really was. And I showed him through a demonstration using his business card and a pen cap, and I showed him how the business card was God's perfect standard that he requires humans to have. And I threw the pen cap, and it wouldn't land on the perfect requirement. And I said, see, sir, we are not able to do this.

I said, but you know who can throw this pen cap from Michigan and land it on that card every time? And he answered it, Matt. He goes, Jesus Christ? I said, yes, Jesus Christ.

Awesome. And from there, I led him to the Gospel, where he could find it in his own Bible. He asked me about translations. I led him to good ones, not the messed up ones. And I said, here's my email, contact me if you have any questions. And, Matt, it was a wonderful exit that we made. She took my hand and said, thank you, thank you. I said, you're welcome.

You're welcome. Well, I hope you can keep in contact with him and maybe do a Bible study with him and teach him. I know exactly where he's at my bank, and he's at my regular branch, and he seems to know what he's, you know, the company likes him really well, so I have the feeling he's not going anywhere, Mr. Slick, so I may very well do that. Just call me Matt, incidentally. Matt's fine. You got it. You got it, Matt. Well, good for you. I won't take up any more air time. And I'll tell you what, if you would, you and your listeners, if you would pray for Ryan, his name was Ryan, Ryan in Dayton, Ohio, that the seed that Buss implanted will be watered by maybe another seasoned Christian, and that the Lord would bring the increase, and that he could share with his wife and his kids that they could all come to Christ.

That's right. Amen, brother. Good for you, buddy. Good for you. Thanks, Matt.

Yep. All right, Matt. God bless. Okay. Bye-bye. Okay, bye.

Praise God. Hey, I like that. Maybe you guys have got some stories you want to share online or on the air if you want. Anyway, give me a call. You have a comment or question, 877-207-2276. This is Glenn from North Carolina. Welcome here on the air.

Hey, Matt. First off, I want to apologize for making you feel like you had to hang up only two weeks ago. I wasn't trying to teach. I was just trying to lay the framework to my question. And the question was, Paul in the first Corinthians 120, but now as Christ risen from the dead became the first fruits of them that slept. And in Matthew 27, 52, it says, And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints would sweat a rose and came out of the graves after his resurrection. The question I was trying to get asked was in Revelation 6-9, that first group, is that the first group in Revelation 6-9? I don't know.

They're given white robes. I'd have to study all three in their context to see what they're teaching before I would give, you know, an opinion. So on the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. Okay? Okay.

Don't worry about that yet. You could email us with those verses and ask the question. And we have people who try and research things, and sometimes I even get to emails and try and answer them, and I did today a little bit. So that's the thing to do, because an answer like that requires exegesis, looking into the context or reading things.

It just takes time. That's all. Yeah. The reason I'm asking it is because they're given white robes, and these saints arose after Jesus. So there's saints. I'm just putting two and two together.

My thinking was, well, these got to be the saints that died before the cross because of what's taught in the epistles after the cross by the Christ Righteousness. Probably. But like I said, I like to read things, because it's so easy to make an assumption about something and then just work out the assumption. And what I'd like to do is say, good question. I don't know the answer.

And so I go study each passage and look at the context and interrelate them over the particular issue and then see if I can come up with an opinion on what it might be and just haven't done that yet. Okay. All right? All right.

Well, again, I apologize. That's okay. All right. Thank you. All right, men. God bless. All right.

You too. This is Glenn from North Carolina. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show.

It's me, Matt Slick, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's see. Hey, a comment. So Bud Light beers lost like $5 or $6 billion, Anheuser-Busch, when they went on that debacle of having a guy who pretended to be a girl as a spokesman, a spokesman for that beer, and they've lost billions of dollars in value. Maybelline just did the same thing with the same guy, and so, hey, good thing I don't use it, but I'm just letting Christians know.

We have the power to boycott, and I think that's a fair thing to do, and so I'd recommend that. I also want to recommend that you go see the movie Nefarious. It's rated R, probably because of the last scene, and it's in a prison, and it's an execution, and so it's a very interesting movie. I've seen it three times. For me, it's very interesting. Now, for a lot of people, it may not be that interesting, but I do recommend you go check it out, and primarily because I think it's a good thing to support good movies, particularly Christian ones. So there you go. I'm just recommending that you go check it out. All right.

Let's see. We're here with Aaron from Washington. Aaron, welcome.

You're on the air. Thank you. My question for you today is what are the qualifications to be considered a Mormon expert? What would be the qualifications to be a Mormon expert? I don't know.

Yeah. I could give you some contact information for Mormon experts. You could ask them. Well, how do you choose what's authoritative in Mormonism based on teachings or what you put on your website or whatnot? Well, what I do is research what the Mormons teach, and I have experts.

All I can do is call them. Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson in Sandy, Utah, have been studying Mormonism for decades. They're incredibly well read on it. They are world-class experts. If I have any questions, I'd call them.

So go ahead. Based on their knowledge? Yes, they have exceedingly great knowledge.

Yes, they do. I know a lot about Mormonism, and they know a lot more than I do. Okay. Well, what makes their knowledge authoritative?

You're breaking up. What makes what? I'm sorry, what? What makes their knowledge authoritative? It's a wrong question. It's a wrong question.

Are we getting feedback? No, it's a wrong question to say what makes their knowledge authoritative. That's the wrong question. Right. The question is do they quote the Mormon sources, and the Mormon sources claim to be authoritative. So if I go or they go to a Mormon source and quote what the Mormon source says, like the Book of Mormon, and read it in context, and it's the same context.

This is why we disagree with it. It's not an issue of authority. You're a Mormon, right? Yes.

Yeah. Because the Mormons will tell you, you've got to have authority. But the Bible doesn't say you have authority. Well, I think in any subject, you should have authority in some form of authority to determine what's true or not. Wait, wait, wait.

Hold on. What gives you the authority to say that you should have authority? Okay. Because I know my beliefs.

I know what's actually being taught versus true in arguments. Yeah. Do you affirm that God used to be a man in another world as Mormonism teaches? You affirm?

On another world because that's scriptural doctrine. I asked you. I asked you. Because I've got somebody's opinion. Okay.

Hold on. I asked you. Do you believe? That's what I asked you. Do you believe that your God used to be a man from another world?

He was exalted and became a God. Do you believe that? You.

I'm asking you. No. I do not believe that. I also believe that statement was not given as doctrine. Hold on.

Hold on. So doctrine and covenants. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. That's doctrine and covenants 130-22. Do you believe that your God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? Yes.

He has a physical body. Okay. And that Journal of Discourse is volume 4, page 218. Now Brigham Young said it in volume 13, page 95, that everything he said from the pulpit was as good as scripture. And you can find that in volume 13, page 95.

He said that first begotten as spirit children in heaven, that we were first begotten there, and then we're in a pre-existence and then are born here on earth. So you believe that too, right? No, I don't.

Because doctrine and covenants says you can't declare authority based on the virtue of the priesthood. I can't just say whatever I want because the whole of the time. Hold on. Do you believe? Do you believe that God has always been God, for example?

Yes. Always been God? Then how could it be that he was exalted? He didn't mean to be exalted. He was already exalted.

He's the highest. He's always existed from eternity to eternity. So this is really fascinating to me because I've seen this happen more and more lately with Mormons. You're confused about what Mormonism teaches.

It looks like Mormonism is pulling a fast one. Okay, but that's the thing. How can I be confused when you're not a member? Hold on, hold on. Okay, when I'm talking, I just ask that you let me finish my sentences on my own radio show. Is that okay with you? Yes, if I have a chance to respond.

Thank you. Look, you don't set the rules here, okay? Just tell me you don't set them here, all right.

If you want to make unfair remarks. Hold on, I'm going to put you on hold. Okay, I had to put you on hold, Aaron, so that I could talk freely. I just want to tell you, you don't set the rules on my show, but I was going to say, but I want you to respond, and then you just start over-talking again. So let's try it one more time, okay?

Aaron, are you there? Yes. All right, now, so Joseph Smith said that God was not always God, that he became God. Do you agree with what Joseph Smith said? No, he said it's true enough that God is always God.

Why is God God? That's what he asked. Hold on, maybe it's a problem here we have a bad connection here, okay?

Maybe that's what it is, okay? Can I call back? Try calling right back, okay? I'll get the other caller as you get a better connection, okay? Okay, all right.

Okay, thank you. All right, hey, let's get to George from Richmond, Virginia. George, welcome. You are on the air. Yes, sir, God bless you.

It's been at least about a year since the last time I called, so I just want to bless you from the bottom of my heart. Oh, well, thank you. Okay. Yes, sir, my question is in regards of agnostic heresies. Gnostic? Yes.

Yes. I just want to let you know, because one of my uncles is like the head of the agnostic church here in Richmond, and he says that... You've got to hold on. We've got a break coming up. You've got a break, so I'm sorry about that.

Just formulate your question, get ready, and then we'll get back to you, okay, after the break. Okay, hold on. Hey, folks, bottom of the hour, if you want to call me, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, we're looking back to the show. Let's get back to George, then we'll get back to Aaron.

All right, George, you're back on the air. Yes, sir, God bless you. My question is, whenever I ask them a question like this, the time in the book of Matthew, I think it is, where the disciples were walking with Christ, and they met a blind man, and they asked him, who sinned, whether their parents sinned or he sinned, right? So then I asked my uncle, how did Jesus Christ heal him? And he told me that he used magic. And they're always talking about sexual magic.

And my question is, is it the same heresies that the disciples have to deal with in the book of Acts? Oh, okay, I got you. So your uncle said that Jesus used magic to heal. Well, that would just be simple. You just say, no, he didn't.

He's God in flesh, and he used the nature of his being divine, and he did that. That's all. Right. And then they're always talking about sexual magic. And I don't know, have you ever heard of Aleister Crowley?

Oh, yes. So I'm always talking to them. I'm always ministering to them. I've been a Christian for over 20 years. But the Holy Spirit told me that they're not going to listen.

Well, I don't know if you, you know, when people say the Holy Spirit told me, it may or may not be the case. I'm open to that possibility. But, you know, it always brings up a little bit of a warning flag with me.

But, you know, we'll move past that. So don't give up on them. And you pray for them. And ask that the Holy Spirit would open their hearts and their minds. Ask Jesus, he does that. And just keep giving them the truth.

And sometimes what's necessary, sometimes what's necessary is to give them the sweet truth of correction and a little tap on the head with a hammer. Just like you've got to stop that. That is bad news. You can't do that.

You can't say that about Jesus. That's very bad. So, I mean, sometimes, you know, it just depends on the situation. And, you know, in family you can say things and, you know, you just got to check it out that way. Okay? Yes, sir. Thank you so much. God bless you. God bless you, brother. Keep up the good work, man.

You keep preaching that gospel to them. Okay? Good for you. Yes, sir. Thank you. More power to you. More love to you. Okay.

I like that sound. More love to you. All right, brother. God bless. Thanks.

Thank you. All right. Let's get back on with Aaron. Okay.

Let's try it now, Aaron. How's the connection? Okay.

I hope it's good. Now it's much better. All right. Okay. Okay. So can I read you a quote from Joseph Smith?

You tell me if Joseph Smith was right or wrong. Would that be okay? Sure. Can I make a clarifying question first, though? Sure.

That I think might save us time? Uh-huh. How so often, and it says on your website, like, you'll quote a general authority and you'll say, but not all Mormons believe this. Right. How do we know that when a general authority speaks that what they're declaring is actual doctrine and binding to the church members?

That's something that your church has to decide, and I believe it's released in general conference and or reiterated in the end sign, in official publications. Okay. Okay. Well, they have reiterated that, but have that answer for you. Reiterated what? They've already given that answer. What answer to it? Of how they determine doctrine.

Okay. How do you do that? Of how they determine doctrine.

How do you do that? So, when a prophet speaks or a general authority aligns with the scriptures and we receive a personal revelation by the Holy Ghost, then we can know that it's true. In other words, a prophet is a prophet when acting as such. Okay. So, you receive a personal revelation. Okay. All right. And scripture.

And scripture. Okay. Let's talk about that.

So, let's see. Joseph Smith said this. This is the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, page 345, 346.

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us. Yea, that God the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the Bible. So, do you believe that God the Father used to dwell on an earth?

I don't know anything in our standard works that declares that. I didn't ask you that. But I know that Jesus was once a man on earth. I asked you that. I didn't ask you that. I asked you, do you believe? You notice from the very beginning, I said, do you believe? That's what I've asked you and you are being evasive. Do you believe it or do you not believe it?

No, I do not believe it. Okay. So, let me ask you another follow-up question. Then why do you disagree with your prophet who claims to speak the truth revealed from God?

Who are you? Because what he said does not align with the standard works that were approved by common consent. Oh. So, wait a minute. Are you telling me then that truth in your church comes by vote, what you're saying? By unanimous vote being one, yes. Okay. Okay. So, truth is determined by the Mormon Church authorities' vote, right? By common consent, yes.

That's why we sustain our leaders. Okay. Okay.

Wow. By vote. That's not God's word.

The scriptures. Okay. So, it's a vote. How do you know? How do you know?

How do you know? Hold on. No, no, no. I asked you twice for clarification. And you said that's what it is.

But you say it's a scripture. So, let me ask you. Do you believe this? Let's just test you.

Why? Let's just test you. What do you believe?

Okay. Do you believe that you have to do good works in order to have your sins forgiven? No. Do you believe? Let's just look back up.

I'm going to see. Do you believe there's only one God in all existence, all places, and all time? There's no other gods besides the one single being who is God?

I believe in God, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I didn't ask that. I said, do you believe there's only one God in all existence, in all places, at all time, and that He was always the one being who is God?

No other gods beside Him. Period. That's it.

He's there all the time. Is that what you believe or not? Yes. Well, then you're not a Mormon, because come on. Based on what? Mormonism. And so, we know, and I know you know this- Based on your definition of Mormonism. No, no. Stop. Stop.

Stop with this foolishness. I know what Mormonism teaches. All right? I've been studying it a long, long time. I started studying it in 1980. I have a lot of information on Mormonism and a lot of the documents. I've actually held in my physical hands an original edition of the Book of Mormon. Okay?

I've compared various things. And so, I'm just telling you, this is what the issue is here. So, Mormonism says there's many gods, and you have the potential of becoming a god.

Is that not correct, or is it correct? Well, can I get my definition of what God is, as they get it, as they explain it? No. Go ahead. What's your definition of the true and living God? No, just when they say that men can become gods, can I explain what those term gods are?

Yeah, sure. What does the term gods mean? That's different than the one in true living God. So, when we say we become gods, that is- When Mormons say they can become gods, that is men that hold authority, they called gods, to whom the word of God came, those are gods. That's how Jesus justified his godhood, when he was known as the Son of God. That's actually Psalm 82 verse 6, which Jesus quotes in John 10, 30 through 34, and James Talmage in his book, Articles of Faith, or is it Jesus Christ?

What page was that? It's been a long time since I've quoted that one. He actually gives a proper interpretation, it cannot be referenced as actual being gods. Those are false gods, because it's an imprecatory Psalm, where the psalmist is cursing those false teachers. So, if you're going to say you can become gods in that same sense, then you're saying you're going to be cursed.

It's an imprecatory Psalm, it's a Psalm of condemnation and mockery against the false people who claim to be gods. So, you're saying that you can become gods, you mean in that sense? That's how Jesus justified his godhood, by quoting that scripture. No, he did not justify his godhood. He is God in flesh.

Now, let me ask you a specific question. Do you believe that God the Father is a God? Yes. Do you believe Jesus is another God? Yes.

That's two gods. Does the Father have any parents of any sorts in any way, God the Father, have any parents in any understanding of what you know about Mormonism? No.

Yes, he does. You don't understand Mormonism. Okay. Oh, they're going to break. Darn. Hold on. Okay.

Based on what the official documents say, not what you think. So, you're the second Mormon doing this. You're playing fast and footloose with truth. You are a deceiver. But I'll give you a chance to try and get yourself up, yes, you are. Okay. So, right back.

You're not intentionally one, but you are one. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on here with Aaron. Are you still there? Sure.

All right. So, where does your God reside? He is in and through all things. Does he have a body, flesh, and bones?

Yes. How can he be in all things if he has a body, flesh, and bones? Still the same way that Jesus can be resurrected and transcend, be lifted into heaven and still be present with us. Jesus' physical body is not in all places at all time. So are you saying that he does not have a physical body? I didn't say that, did I? I said his physical body, which means he has a physical body, is not present tense. Towards the location of his physical body.

Okay, hold on, let me finish. And it is not ubiquitous, by definition it's impossible. The Christian theological perspective is that Jesus has two distinct natures, a divine nature and a human nature. Divine nature is everywhere all the time, and the attributes of that nature are described with a single person.

It's called the communication of the properties. So you teach that Jesus is a man, and I'm asking you about your God the Father. Does he reside near a star called Kolob? As Pearl of Great Price says, your official doctrine. Analogy that was given to Abraham, there could be that connection, but that was an analogy. So it talks about it, and that this is what it talks about, Kolob, out of Pearl of Great Price, and that this is where God is residing, in that heaven, signifying the first creation nearest to the celestial or the residence of God. That's figure one, the facsimile from the book of Abraham, number two. The explanation. So the celestial kingdom is a place, that's what you're saying? No, no, I'm going with what you guys say. Kolob signifying the first creation nearest to the celestial or the residence of God, this is in the Pearl of Great Price.

Do you affirm that the residence of God is Kolob? Sorry, do you have a more specific reference? No I'm asking for a reference. How can I give you a more specific, you want a specific reference? I just did. Pearl of Great Price, a facsimile from the book of Abraham, number two, explanation of figure one.

Right there. The facsimile, not the text, but the facsimile? It's what your church is teaching, it's what it is saying.

That's what it is. No, I've never heard anyone reference a facsimile to basis a teaching, you can call it scripture. Hey guy, guy, this is from your own scriptures, that's what it is, don't you even know what the Pearl of Great Price is?

Do you know where it's located? And this is why I go back to what is official, how do you determine authenticity? Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Is the Pearl of Great Price official scripture or not, in your church? It is, the facsimiles are... Hold on, is it authoritative? I'm just asking, is it authoritative? That's completely... Is the Pearl of Great Price authoritative? Simile which is a picture authoritative. I didn't ask that, I asked is the Pearl of Great Price authoritative?

Do you see how far you have to go to make this connection? I'm just asking you, is the Pearl of Great Price authoritative? That's what I'm asking. Is it?

Yes it is. Okay, so when there is a facsimile from the book of Abraham, and in it, it's talking about the explanation of what this thing was that Joseph Smith himself drew, which he said came from the Egyptian papyri, and he was filling in the blanks because there's problems with facsimile, and Egyptologists say that he obviously blew it, he didn't know what he was doing. But when it's there, in there, and he gives the explanation, can we trust that, can you trust what Joseph Smith said is his explanation? Okay, so if someone says that, I'm just saying that if we take a single verse out of context, a singular thing, we don't put it along anything else, and we say because it says this thing right here, this must be the truth, even though it contradicts other things in the scriptures. Is that the belief that we're supposed to have?

I'm just asking what you're saying, because you guys, what you do is you play with words. For example, I'll show you, what's the Trinity? Do you know what the Trinity is?

Can you define it? The Trinity, well, the Godhead, Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. Is that three gods or one god? Three and one god. Is that three gods, or is it one god? Well they are all equally god, and unitedly they are god. We worship the Father in the name of the Son.

I want everybody to listen to how he's using words, okay? This has to do with Mormons. Is the Father a god? Yes, he is a god. Is the Son another god? Is he a god also?

Yes. So how many gods is that? That would be three. That would be two gods so far. So is the Holy Ghost a god?

Yes. Okay how many gods is that? The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, three separate gods. Now I asked you what the Trinity was, now is the Trinity three gods, or is the Trinity one god? It's one, just as the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are one. How can there be one god when you just send three gods? How can there be one god when you just send three gods? So you were saying that Jesus by himself is not god? I'm talking about your doctrine.

This is the question you're asking me? You just said, no, you just said that the Trinity is one god, and then you said the Father is a god, the Son is a god, and the Holy Spirit is a god. That's three gods.

Yes. That's three. So how many is the Trinity, is the Trinity one god, or is the Trinity three gods? It's one god.

How can one god be, how can one, no, no, I didn't say godhead. You keep doing this. You keep changing things. But we're talking about Mormonism, even Mormon terminology. I'm getting it.

I'm going with what you say. You said the Trinity is one god, Aaron. You said the Trinity is one god, you said the Trinity is one god, that's what it is. And then you said the Father is a god, the Son is a god, the Holy Spirit is a god. That's three gods. So how can one god be three gods? Because there is one god, and we worship one god in the name of the Son. So you believe in three gods, you believe in three gods, but you only worship one. See?

I just busted you. In the name of the Son. It doesn't matter the name of. So I said earlier, I said, how many gods are there? Just one being, all place, all time, that's god. You said yes. No, you just said that the Son is a god and the Holy Ghost is a god.

Which is true. You can't, hold on, Aaron, you cannot continue to argue rationally if you offer contradictory statements. Okay, well that would be something that you would have to resolve as well, because you believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and that they're all god, and that they're one. And we believe the same, it's just the godhead.

No you don't. We believe in what's called divine simplicity, the paracoretic relationship of the one being and the divinely simple being of who god is to manifest himself as three distinct simultaneous persons, not gods. There's only one god who has the quality and nature of being god, that is Yahweh himself. Yahweh is Elohim, 1 Kings 8.60. So there's only one being who is god, none created before, none created after. That's what we can go into, I'd go into the top of the safety of god, the nature of god, and the economic trinity, and the ontological trinity, and get into all of this.

I know the doctrines well. You teach that you say trinity, is the trinity one god or is the trinity three gods? I didn't say godhead. We believe in the godhead.

I didn't ask you that. I said is the trinity one god or three gods? It's one.

I'm sorry. There's a glitch. One god or three gods? The trinity states that it is one god.

Okay. So is the father part, in your view, there's three gods, the father, the son, and the holy spirit, are all three of those gods also the one god who is a trinity? Yes, they all hold authority of god.

I didn't say authority. I said are they, by nature, okay, keep clarifying, ontologically, are they actual gods, the father, the son, and the holy ghost, are they each actually gods? Yes.

Yes. That's three gods. May become gods. Yeah, that's the word of Satan. So you're teaching now that the trinity is one god comprised of three gods.

How's that rational? I'm saying that the godhead is... We said it. I said the word trinity.

The father said it and the holy ghost. I specifically said not the godhead. I said trinity. And I'm forced to accept that term. Is the trinity... Are we talking about your beliefs or are we talking about my beliefs?

I'm going with what you keep saying. I see. Okay, well I am saying that we believe in the godhead.

You and okay, let's do this. So I know what you teach about the godhead. The godhead is three separate gods, the father, god the father, god the son, god the holy ghost. Now the holy spirit is the presence that goes out because god is a body of flesh and bones as does the son. The holy spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bones but he became a god. But we don't know how he became a god because the problem is he didn't go through exaltation. So it's a problem in Mormonism but that's another topic.

So I'm just going through this one narrow thing. You also believe that Mormonism, that men are spirit babies born in heaven and that doesn't say anything bad in the standard works at all. I don't believe that. You believe that. You can call it discourse.

It says, well this is what you're saying my beliefs are in Mormonism on your website. So is there a mother goddess? No it's not.

That's what I'm calling. Is there a mother goddess? Is there a goddess?

No. I personally do not believe that. Okay, so Articles of Faith by James Talmadge, he was one of the 70, I believe he was, I'm not quite sure. On page 443 he says there's a mother goddess, is James Talmadge wrong? Okay, are those teachings that you're showing found in the standard works given in the church?

Yes or no? Yes, they're taught in the church. I've talked to thousands of Mormons over 40 years and they've all taught, not all but most people who study, they know these things.

That's why it's taught. And what I've noticed is, this is why I'm entertaining this, this is because to me it's very interesting to see what you're doing. Another Mormon has done the same thing as you're doing. You're desperately trying to sound as Christian as you can. And trying to say things, and the exact same thing, it's not in the standard official works.

This is why I went so quickly to, what do you believe? Because if I say something, well where's the standard work? Well hey, we can go to the standard works.

You're trying to. I wish, we're almost out of time. You know, Aaron, I'm serious, I've really enjoyed talking with you. Would you want to call back tomorrow and talk some more? I will try, if I'm not in work, I will definitely try.

I get that. And if you want, I would love to have one of the world's experts on Mormonism. I could have, maybe if he's not busy tomorrow, we could arrange it. Have you two talk on my show with each other, what do you think?

That'd be fantastic. I tell you what, if you email me, I gotta hurry quickly here. Email me at info at karm.org and just say, hey, if you want to do this, I'll talk to my friend Bill McKeever and or Eric Johnson, see which one can do it, and we'll have them come on and we'll have you guys in discussion, because they're better at this than I am. Okay? All right? Okay.

We've got to go here. All right. Email that info at karm.org. Okay. Thanks.

Appreciate it. That was a great conversation. Hey folks, by God's grace, back on air tomorrow, we'll talk to you then. We'll see you. God bless and bye. Bye.