Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Give me a call. All you have to do is dial 8772072276.

We have nobody waiting right now. Why don't you give me a call? I had an interesting discussion today. Oh, I'm trying to do one more switch here, one more thing on the audio stuff here for the... That should work now.

That should work. Okay. I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine on UFOs. I've talked about this before, but I've studied UFOs for decades.

Not every day. I could read 18 books a week or something like that on it. I've listened to hundreds of hours of tapes from people who claim to have been abducted, to people who say they can talk to UFOs. I've watched documentaries. I tried to watch one last night. In fact, my wife and I, her brother said, hey, he's watching this one show on UFOs.

Oh, let's check it out. He said it was interesting. I couldn't watch it for more than two or three minutes because the way they were doing this editing, flash, flash. Then it was half a second later, they showed a different scene. One second later, a different scene.

Then flash of this. It was like, come on. It was overloading me. After a few minutes, I couldn't take it anymore. I said, I'm done. I wanted to watch it, though.

This stylistic editing of sight barraging you and visual barrage. Come on. Just give me the facts.

Anyway, I've studied it. We were discussing the issue about UFOs. They are real. Something's happening. The question is, what are they?

Maybe you could give me a call. You can see what you think. I suspect that they're demonic, that they are tools of the enemy. We can get into some particulars about that, but I do believe, or I suspect that very strongly. I don't believe that life can form by chance anywhere in the universe. I just don't believe it's possible. I don't believe it's possible because of mathematics.

I've delved a little bit into permutability, DNA, nucleotide bond pair arrangements, matching arrangements in RNA that have to work, all work together, and the odds of it forming and working just don't make any mathematical sense to say it's by chance. In fact, the number of electrons in the universe is something like 10 to the 80th, or 10 to the 78th. That's one with that many zeros, like 78 zeros. That's how many little atoms there are in the entire universe, except electrons, even more than that, because electrons, you have five electrons in a molecule.

Not a big deal, but it's like 10 to the 78th. Some people just routed up 10 to the 80th particles in the universe. The math analysis and the odds of certain things forming by chance just exceed that by just kabillions.

It's just not happening. I don't believe that there's real life out there. If there is, it's only because God created it.

What are these things? Did you know that a lot of them, UFOs, have taught theology, that Jesus is not God, that we're all divine, that reincarnation is true, that we're interested in some weird things, and we're going to get into it because it might be kids in the car, but they've probed and delved into stuff, and Christians apparently don't get abducted. So I suspect that they're demonically connected.

Hey, how about that for an opening? Maybe we could talk about that, or whatever you want to talk about. You want to talk about Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science Unity by Islam. You want to talk about Roman Catholicism, charismatic gifts. I might be on a show tonight dealing with that issue, the charismatic gifts, but I've been so busy and exhausted from some other stuff that I kind of said no, but I'm thinking I might.

Just depends. So that topic, all kind of stuff. I'd love to talk about all kinds of things, and I'd love to study all kinds of things. If you want, give me a call, 877-207-2276.

Let's get to Jose from North Carolina. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi. Good afternoon, man.

Good afternoon. You started talking about UFOs. I have a very early memory of an experience having to do something, and it's an odd thing. It's stuck with me my entire life, and it's the only UFO story I got. Okay.

Let's hear it. All right. Now, I'm only sharing this because you mentioned it, and it's the same with everybody else out here, but I was around five years old. Now, mind you, it's from back then. In my experience is that I was walking out of our apartment building with my mom, and in my memory, I'm watching myself somehow be pulled away from her. So I'm looking down at her now, and I'm going backwards, and there's some kind of a door thing, and I don't see anything alien.

In my memory, it's more like a human hand in the old olive drab military uniform, and I want to turn around in my memory, but that's it. That is the beginning and end of that story. Let me ask you, because I'm going to ask you, at five years old, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but the credibility of it is reduced, five-year-old. So what do you think? Sure. I shrugged.

No, that's okay. The other part of this has everything to do with what's going on right now. There's plenty of government types saying, yep, the UFOs are real. We don't know what they are, and that's their story.

So it's the military stuff. I lean towards that, again, because of what I just told you, which is something that's been preplayed in my head for a while. The other part of it has everything to do with what you mentioned concerning people's stories about contacting weird beings from somewhere else.

What I think of is, and again, I am getting back into reading the Bible, I haven't gotten to this part yet, and correct me if I'm wrong, a scripture mentioning the devil, disgusting himself as an angel of light. That's what I think of. That would not be generally interpreted to be a UFO craft. There are actual physical manifestations. There are actual ships.

There's impressions. They're detectable on radar. People have touched them. They've been inside of them.

Now, if one or two people say this, okay, but it's all over the world, and it's been for decades. So something's happening, and they're real. They are. But what are they to ask the question, you know? Yeah, yeah.

That's the thing. And then when it comes to meeting beings, do they fit the shiny label? Do they babble on about all kinds of things that should be philosophy but are not? Do they acknowledge God or Christ in any fashion, and it just turns into a strange and chaotic mess of fusion out there. So as cool and interesting as pop culture has made it out to be, when it comes to the reality factor of it, it doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't say go to church.

Well, let me ask you, you said something that kind of, you know, got me interested here. So you said you're just starting to get back into church. Does that mean, are you a Christian or not, or what? Growing up, my dad kind of hopscotched from one church to the next.

We were never really cemented in any particular, I would say, branch of Christianity. And the way my days go right now, I'm pretty much listening to a radio station to see them have a clue. Okay. Well, you know what, because the pastor part of me is coming up and talking here about you. Are you familiar with my website, karm.org, C-I-R-M dot org? I visited it and visited it. That's all right. And I started the forums.

Okay. But there's a statement of faith on there. And you don't have to study eight million pages of stuff, but the statement of faith is lengthy.

So it might print out to five pages, but it's very easy to read. And that would be a good study to get you grounded in what is biblical and because there are a lot of false churches out there and false teachers, if you're listening on the radio, don't know who you're listening to. Like stay away from Joyce Meyer, stay away from Joel Osteen, you know, Kenneth Copeland. These are bad teachers. Okay.

Joel Osteen has said a bunch of things that are pretty much repeating the aforementioned mess of Islam. It was weird. It was weird.

He's got some issues. So anyway, we're just giving you some advice there. But yeah, you know, it reminded me of an experience I had when I was in Buena Park, California, and that's in Orange County, Southern California. And I was in my mid to late teens. I can't remember exactly, but I was involved in the occult at the time. It was before I was a Christian. So that happened when I was 17.

So you know, I was either 15, 16, 17 ranges before I got saved. And a buddy of mine and I would do seances. I've seen stuff.

I mean, I actually have. And we were standing out in front of the house. And boy, I just remembered another story.

Wow. I haven't thought of that in a long time. I was washing dishes in the house there and heard popping sounds and sirens. Went out front and literally there was bank robbers being chased by cops and they were shooting at the cops.

I mean, I see, I saw this out of my front yard. I just forgot a friend about that. Anyway, so, oh, and then there's a story on which, well, I will tell each November 1st on the radio. I tell about the time when a buddy of mine and I were threatened with being killed. And I had to, that's another story. It's a fun story. Okay.

So I really digress. So we're in the, we're watching Disneyland fireworks. We could see them from our, our house. The distance is popping and see stuff.

If you've got a pie enough. And, um, there was this, it looks like a helicopter light at night, uh, moving and, um, we're watching it. And I remember very clearly watching it, watching it. This is slowly moving. And then it dipped down. It was often a distance, you know, it was miles down the distance and up in the sky and it just dipped down and then went up and then went down again.

Like what the heck? And it just shot up in the air and flew over our heads. I mean, you know, thousands of feet up over our heads and just disappeared the other direction. And, uh, it's going up, down, up, and then we just disappeared. I remember that.

So no drugs, no alcohol, nothing. You know, it was like, what was that? And, uh, people see stuff. Yeah. And the next scariest thing I saw was when I got up one morning without, uh, and I turned the light on in the mirror.

Oh man, it was terrifying. But Hey, here you go, buddy. All right.

God bless. Hey folks, four open lines. If you want to give me a call, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Hey, we're kind of talking about UFOs a little bit, but we can talk about anything. Give me a call. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you gotta do is dial eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Oh, by the way, um, we have done it. Uh, just want to let you know that, uh, if you want to support us, um, you can do that very easily because we've gotten rid of the PayPal links and stuff like that. PayPal has reiterated that they will penalize, uh, ministries and or organizations or whatever it is that use their services that, uh, provide or produce any misinformation.

So this is just big brother, uh, 1984 crap. And, uh, we are, that's it. We're done with, and so, uh, we've moved away and if you were to, if you want to support us, you can, all you gotta do is go to karm.org forward slash donate. And, uh, what you have right there is something that's, uh, all set up, all good. It works fine and it's not PayPal.

It's a different thing altogether. And, uh, there you go. And so those of you who have signed up with PayPal, um, it'll still continue working, but we're going to gradually move away from there won't be anything new coming out of it, but we're going to contact people and gradually work to have them move over away from it to a new system.

So that's what we're talking about and that's it. And, uh, you know, karm.org forward slash donate. So I would really appreciate some support. We ask $5 a month. Uh, we're looking for a thousand people to do $5 a month.

It's not very much and, uh, it would be great, uh, greatly appreciated and greatly, um, um, helpful because we are trying to pay the bills and stay on the radio, uh, as, uh, as the needs go. So there you are. Four open lines, 8772072276. Randy from North Carolina. Randy, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, thank you for taking my call.

I just wanted to continue on the conversation you were having with the last color. You were hitting on two topics that were written that I called. I know you were discussing UFS and you also mentioned some biblical teachers. And I was wondering if you, uh, what you thought about the, the verses in Ezekiel where Ezekiel saw a whirlwind, which had the face of God that he could see in any direction that the whirlwind moved. Yeah, that's a studied with a tribe. This was like a, what most people would consider to be a UFO vehicle. Yeah.

And entering between the whirling wheels under the chair of him and fill your hands with the coals. And, and, uh, uh, you know, so it's talking about, uh, well, that's within the whirling wheels. Yeah. Uh, you know, it's just people reading into the text, what it isn't there. There's angels involved in the whole, but it's not a UFO.

Okay. It's not, uh, it's not that. Well, it would be described it as moving to and fro without turning in any direction that it went. He could still see the face of God. And some of the wording that's used in those verses, you look them up in like a strong concordance and they described that amber color that he used as a highly polished brawn. And it also says, take fire from between the whirling wheels, from between the cherubim or angels.

So what's happening is it's a description of some angelic realm and angelic purpose. Okay. Okay.

The, the pastor that, uh, studied some of these verses with was dr. Arnold Murray. Okay. First two things, two things, two things. One, you're making noise in the background and I get distracted a lot by clicks and sounds like that. Okay.

And also Arnold Murray's a false teacher. Okay. I was going to ask you about that because I've studied with the chapel for quite a while.

I've learned how to study myself through them and I was wondering what you would disagree with his teaching. Okay. Shepherd's chapel. Uh, we can talk about them about a week ago. I was listening to the, and you briefly mentioned them right at the end of the show. I was just wanting to ask about that. Okay. Yeah. They teach what's called serpent seed doctrine.

And, uh, that means that, uh, the devil had relations, physical relations with, uh, with, um, Eve to produce the offspring of, uh, the Canaanites, the key nights. Okay. Right. And that is just, that's just so bad. It's false. For example, when you go to Genesis four, I believe it's Genesis four one, the man had relations with his wife and she conceived and gave birth to Cain is refuted right there. So what Murray would do is take this verse, he'd go into the Hebrew, find something and then reinterpret it in light of his theology. So what the Bible says is that Adam and Eve had relations and she gave birth to Cain because of that.

That's what it's saying. It's not because Satan had relations with her. That is foolishness, absolute foolishness.

Shepherd's chapel teaches it. Okay. What about later in Genesis and Noah's days when it speaks of the giants and the Nephilim or Nephilim, whichever way you want to pronounce it. Nephilim um, do you not agree with that?

The Nephilim are the offspring between fallen angels and people. Okay. Okay. And you don't, Satan himself would be capable of that and they could be just following his example. Okay.

Are you ready? It says in Genesis four one, the man that's Adam had relations with his wife. She conceived and gave birth to Cain. So where did Cain come from?

Is it from Satan and Eve or is it from, or is it from Adam and Eve according to the text? Okay. The text continues and says she again continued in labor. If you read that in the Hebrew. No, it doesn't. No, it does not.

No, it does not. No, I'm telling you Arnold Murray, Arnold Murray's passed away. I had an open challenge. I had an open challenge written to debate him and I made sure he and his followers knew about it. Best of my ability, he knew about it and it was never any uptake. People have challenged him before.

He won't, he wouldn't do it because he's incompetent. You don't, no disrespect meant, but people who don't know enough about theology and biblical interpretation are taken in by people like him. So look, I'll show you the watch. It said, no, according to the text, we'll keep reading.

I'm going to show you. We're going to keep reading, but what does it say? The man had relations with his wife Eve. Who's the man that had relations with his wife Eve? Who's the man? That would be Adam. Good. And she conceived and gave birth to Cain.

So Adam and Eve had relations and she conceived because of the relations that gave birth to Cain. Is that correct? According to what it just says right there. Is that what it says? That's what it says. That is what it says.

I am here. So you, do you believe what it says? Okay. One thing I never understood after that is how they both came to bring their gifts to the Lord at the same time, as though they were the same age. No, no, no, no, no. Look, I'll be reading.

I'll show you. And so he gave birth to Cain and she said, I've gotten a man child with the help of the Lord. That means the Lord opened her womb, et cetera. Again, she, again, she gave birth to his brother Abel.

It's either possible that they were twins or again, she had relations with Adam and bore Abel. The other one is perfectly fit. The word again does mean to continue. Where? Again. No, no, no. Look, you have been duped.

You've been duped by this guy. I'm telling you. Hold on. Okay. We'll be right back after the break.

We've got a break here. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody welcome back to the show. All right, let's get back on with Randy.

Randy, are you still there? I'm barely here. I may lose you.

I'm kind of in the stick. That's all right. What I'm trying to do is get you to undo the brainwashing of the false teacher and get you to read the text for what? Look, I can say I believe everything that anybody teaches. You know, I study for myself and I study at home. Well, the issue is, okay, well that's okay. But you've, excuse me, Randy, Randy, Randy, I'm trying to help you here.

Okay. You believe something that is not biblical and it's right there. It's one of the main things that Shepherd's chapter teaches.

That's what Arnold Murray teaches. I don't believe 100% of anything anybody says. Do you believe that Satan had relations with Eve and produced Cain? I think it's quite possible.

If angels could do it, why couldn't he possibly? So then when it says that Adam and Eve had relations and conceived and she gave birth to Cain, it means it's possible that's not what happened. Is that what you're saying?

Even though the text says that's what happened, by you saying it's possible that the devil did it, you're then saying that it's possible that it's not the case that Adam and Eve had relations and she gave, she conceived in those relations and produced, gave birth to Cain. You're saying, no, it's possible that that's wrong. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that he would be just as integral as any other angel that could do it. You are, you're not hearing what you yourself are saying. This is called cognitive dissonance. If the Bible says two plus two is four and you say it's possible that two plus two is five, then you're saying that the Bible could be wrong about two plus two equals four. If it makes a statement and it's clear in what it says, then you say another opportunity might be the case. Then you're saying the first one could be wrong.

You're now saying that Adam and Eve having relations and conceiving and giving birth to Cain might be wrong. I don't know how to interpret it. It says the man had relations with his wife. We know what that means. And she conceived. We know what that means.

And gave birth to Cain. We know what that means. And you're saying, oh, that could be wrong because it could be Satan. You see the problem? Do you see the problem? Okay.

Not clearly. Well, you need to study this because I've done this with people before. I have to stay on the same topic over and over and over and over because the cults, they brainwash people. And it takes a lot of work to get them to start seeing. Most churches do. Well, we're not talking about most churches.

We're talking about this issue. I know about cults quite a bit. I've been studying them for decades. And so I'm just telling you, this is a cult practice to inculcate and to teach in such a way that the text now says the opposite of what it actually says. That's one of the things that cults do. The text now says the opposite. So when it says the man and the wife had relations, Eve, conceived and gave birth to Cain, it means no, that was really the devil. They're getting it to say the opposite, that it's not the case.

This is what cults do. They don't read what it says and believe what it says. Now, if there's anything later on in the text, again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. I looked at the Hebrew. There's nothing in there that says that there was any relations other than with Adam and Eve. And Abel was a keeper of the flocks and Cain was a tiller of the land. So it came about in the course of the time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord. Abel brought his offering, et cetera. There's nothing in there. What about the enmity between the serpent seed and the woman seed? It does say that.

That's Genesis 3 because the serpent had deceived Eve, deceived her, not beguiled her as Arnold Murray likes to say in his incredible ignorance and twisting of scripture wants to say that. Let me, hold on, hold on. Okay, look, I'm going to, oh, I'm sorry. I hung up on him accidentally. I wanted to put him on hold because he kept interrupting. Darn it, call me back.

Okay. I was an accident hanging up on you, but, uh, notice what I was trying to do there, folks, trying to answer him in the context of what he asked and then he stops me from answering and then goes on with something else. Look, I'm going to tell you, this is part of the cult mentality.

I'm not calling him a cultist, not saying he's not a Christian. I'm just saying that, that this is what happens. You ask a question and then the person starts answering and you interrupt and then go to something else. That means you're not hearing and don't want to hear because the brain has been given over. The mind has been given over through, uh, practices of inculcation repetition so that your, your brain is brainwashed into thinking a certain way and believing a certain something so that if anything comes forth automatically that contradicts it, you automatically have to stop it. It's not, and then what that means is you're not examining what is being said. You're just stopping it.

You don't want to hear what's being said. This happens in Mormonism. It happens in Jehovah's Witnesses. It happens in Roman Catholicism. It even happens in Protestant churches.

But this is a common thing that happens to a lot of people. And so one of the things I can find out is do you want to hear the answer? I've had so many times I'll, uh, people ask me questions on other venues and I'll start answering and they'd jump in and interrupt. I'll say, do you want the answer or not? You want my answer or what? Because if you ask me a question and then you, I start to answer and you interrupt me, that means you don't want the answer. So why ask me a question? Simple.

All right. Let's see. Let's get on the air with Matt from California. Matt, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, how's it going? Oh, it's going.

Uh, so yeah, I'll get right to it. Um, I'm, I'm curious as to what your primary contention with Armenian, Armenianism would be. Well, the primary would be the issue of autonomy of human free will. And they hold to what's called libertarian free will, which is the idea that the sinner is capable of his own freedom within his sin to be able to choose God, which scripture contradicts. And so they will say then also that if God determines that we believe, then automatically it means we're not free. And if God knows everything that we're going to do and he's predestined, that means we're not free. So therefore it can't be that God would do that. So what they're inadvertently doing is using themselves as a standard of righteousness and truth and they demote God. So one of the things I'm going to ask them is, do you believe in your free will independent of God? And if they say, yes, that's heresy because nothing can operate independently of God because he works all things after the council of his will, even your, so to speak, libertarian free will. That must mean that within the Christian economy of the Trinitarian being, that all of what he decrees and ordains, even your free will libertarian choices must be under the sovereignty of God. Otherwise you're committing idolatry by assigning the independence of a seity to free will and saying that it acts in a manner consistent with itself so that God's not the one who's sovereign over it. And it's, it's really bad teaching. Okay.

That's the primary you asked. To look at, to look at the definition of it, like online, it, it doesn't, it doesn't say all of that though. And it, it makes it sound, it makes it sound pretty legit, like biblically. What's the it you're talking about?

I'm sorry? You said, you said the definition of it. What's the it? Oh, the, uh, the Arminianism.

They're, they're what they hold to. If you look at Arminianism, pull it up on a search. Well, you can understand something here. What you did, you asked about the primary issue and then you said, Arminianism sounds biblical, but you didn't deal with the primary issue. That's a, it's a problem within Arminianism and it is a problem. It's a, it is a problem. Okay.

Yeah. From what I understood of Arminianism, like what they say of themselves, like what you just represented is not what I've ever heard from anybody that would say that they essentially probably are considered. Most Arminians, uh, it's not disrespectful to them. Don't know their own position. Don't know what it really teaches and don't know the ramifications of it. You know, that's, that's the average Joe.

And I go to a, you know, when I was going, my wife's been sick and so we haven't gone to church much lately, but I would go to a Romanian church. You know, I don't have any problem with that, you know? Uh, but you said, what's a primary problem. It's that issue of the centrality of human free will.

That's basically on an equal level with God. And that's the problem. So that's what libertarianism is. Okay. So it would say that libertarian free will says that human free will is not compatible with God's sovereign decrees and election.

Okay. So what if a person has, uh, issues with the, the, the teachings of John Calvin, but understands that obviously that what Calvin taught, he was getting from the Bible. All of this is coming from the Bible. The Armenian thought, the Calvinist is it. So if Armenian free will is true, for example, that human free will is not compatible with God's sovereign decrees and election. It also States that human free will is not completely restricted and incapacitated by one's sinful nature.

Now I'm going to say this again. We'll take a break and I'll come back and I'll show you from scripture. Can you, can you tell me who's compatible with scripture? Okay. So they say, they teach that human free will is not completely restricted and incapacitated by one's sinful nature.

How about the unbelievers relationship with sin and his free will. We'll get back. We'll talk about this after the break.

Okay. Uh, 50 folks, please hold on to open lines. 8 7 7 2 0 7 2 2 7. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 8 7 7 2 0 7 2 2 7 6. Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy. Welcome back to the show. Oh my goodness.

It's the last segment already. Man, time is flying. All right. Hey Matt, are you still there?

Yeah, I'm here. All right. Hey, I'm going to read a quick quote to you and tell me what you think of this.

Uh, human beings are not able to think will nor do anything good in and of themselves, including merit favor from God, save ourselves from judgment and condemnation of God that we deserve for our sin or even believe the gospel. What do you think of that quote? Sounds fine to me. Good. That's from the, that's good. That's from evangelicalArminians.org.

Okay. So they actually have the same view as the reform people do. Now what libertarian free will says is that the unbeliever in his sinful state is able to believe, but what they they'll say is God gives them grace. It's called prevenient grace that then brings them. This is not the exact right way to say it, but the concept will work, brings them to a somewhat of a neutral state where they can freely choose or freely not choose. And in that way, it's up to them.

And the Arminians will say that's where the, uh, the true nature of salvation comes in, in the human will being brought to the place of the freedom to reject or accept. Okay. Now, what do you think of that? Uh, it's, um, I don't know. It gets, it gets a little confusing.

Um, I probably would have to, yeah, they'd probably have to review that again or something. Okay. Well, here's the thing. The Bible says, the Bible says the natural man cannot receive or understand the things of God for they're foolishness to him.

Cannot. It says that, uh, the unbelievers, uh, dead in his sins, uh, Ephesians 2, 1, and he's by nature a child of wrath, Ephesians 2, 3, that he does not seek for God and does no good, Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12. And he's a slave of sin, Romans 6, 14 through 20. And so because of that condition, then God has to grant that they believe, Philippians 1, 29. And that belief is in Christ, John 6, 29. And so, because of this, God has to grant that they come to Christ, John 6, 65.

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed, Acts 13, 48. There's a dog back there. So, when people say, I've had this conversation thousands of times over 30 years. And, uh, I know the most common objections and everything, and I just don't see how, uh, well, I won't say it. Go ahead, comment. Well, you're an excellent debater. You're an excellent debater, and I listen to you quite often, and I'm sure a lot of people like myself are a bit intimidated, you know, in bringing some of the stuff forth, you know, to you. Um, but I'm sure being that you're an excellent debater, you probably are able to play devil's advocate quite well too, if you wanted to try to sell Arminianism. I could.

Absolutely, I could. But in order to do that, I would have to ignore a lot of scripture. So, for example, 2 Peter 3, 9, God wants everyone to be saved.

Matt, come on. He wants everyone to be saved. He doesn't desire any to repent. And you can go to 1 Timothy 2, 4. He wants all men to be saved. And he says, in John 3, 16, he says, yeah, John 3, 16 is what I was going to go to, but they say God loved the world. He gave his only begotten son. Whoever would believe in him. See, whoever would believe, it's up to them. And so I could do that.

And then 3, 17. Yeah. He says he didn't send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

That's right. Would you say it's fair to say that, would you say it's fair to say that if somebody held to the belief that they think that God desires for all men to be saved, and that somehow he does grant them the ability to come to him, but effectively some obviously will not. If that, if a person held to that, would you say that's heretical? Yes, but it doesn't mean they're not Christian.

It means it's not true that heresy, there's little different levels. It's like, that's not what the Bible says. And I would ask them, and you're right, I can out debate them, and I don't want to do that. I don't want to intimidate anybody. That's not my goal. And when I talk to people who don't know as much, and it's not a statement of grandeur or anything like that.

I've been doing this a long time. I don't want to punish them. I don't want to make them look bad.

I just want to inform them. That's all. And so I'm really quite gentle when I'm one on one with people and say, yeah, you're right.

I can see that. And here, let me show you. You know, and what I'll often say is, all right, you're ready. I want to try and set you up for a fall, if that's okay with you. And they, both people smile and go, go ahead. You know, and they know I'm not out to hurt them.

It's not out to win the debate. That's not it. And so if, you know, if someone says God wants all to be saved, I can leave it at that and say, well, you're right, because he does say that in 1 Timothy 2, 2 Peter 3, 9. I could stop there.

Yeah. But I could also say, if you, if you, I can hold on. I'll say, if you understand that to be the case, that he just desires everybody, then would he ever do anything or speak in any way so people would not be saved? And their answer, of course it will, of course not. Then I go to, to, he, excuse me, to Mark 4, 10 through 12, where they asked Jesus why he speaks in parables. And he tells them so that people won't be saved. And then I go to Mark 4, 10 through 12, so the people won't be saved. He specifically says that they will not be forgiven.

He speaks in parables, so they will not be forgiven. And then I say, now we have to, I'd love to respond to that one. Sure. Go ahead. Sure.

Yeah. And I've actually talked to some people about that, but the thing is, is like they, if they were not elected, if they're not predestined to be saved, it would be irrelevant whether Jesus spoke in parables or he didn't, because they're not going to be saved. On the contrary, because that's why he does, because they're not elect.

So they don't get the truth the way that needs to be spoken, because if Christ is commanding that people believe because he's God, they will. So he hides it from those who are not chosen. Perfectly logical.

But I thought it's already predetermined from the foundations of, before the foundations of the earth. Of course it is. You believe that, right? Do you? I'm not sure how to, I'm not sure how to receive. There's, there's a lot of texts in the Bible that's like biblical poetry or something that seems to represent this, but then somebody else says something else that seems to represent this. And there's a lot of things I just have to appeal to mystery.

No, you don't. Right. Ephesians 1 11. We have also obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose, who works all things after the counsel of his will. That's pretty clear. Ephesians 1 11.

It's not poetry. So God works all things after the counsel of his will. Do you agree that God works all things after the counsel of his will?

Uh, yes, but he says that it's his will that he desires that no one should perish, not all should be saved. Uh, but he says all, not no one. And the word all, I can show you, I can, I can actually do this.

I can show you in different contexts means a restricted group. And I'll prove this cause we got another caller and stuff. Let me prove it to you. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to, okay. You ready?

I'm going to set you up for, for a fall here a little bit. Okay. Is that okay?

If I give it a try. Okay. Okay.

Would you agree with me that whenever, uh, the Bible says that, uh, that someone has died with Christ, just talking about believers, not unbelievers who've died and we trust it. Okay. Yeah. So whenever it says that, uh, someone's died in relationship to Jesus, it's the believer and it's a true person. Right.

Okay. Second Corinthians 5 14 for the love of Christ controls us. Havoc included this, that one died for all. Therefore all died. He died for all and the all are the ones who died. So who's the all there?

Second Corinthians 5 14. Well, if you just sort of look at that without any additional context, then it sounds like everyone. No. Then that means everyone died in Christ and you can't have that. Yeah. Well it kind of sounds like that. Right. But obviously through many other things that are said now that doesn't work. It's like universalism. There you go.

Very good. And I can show you other verses like this. First Corinthians 15 22 Romans 5 18 where God uses the word all differently than we do. And when I do, when I teach Bible studies, I teach this. I go through it slowly and say, take a look, take a look. And they go, Oh, I never saw that. And I say, that's right. But it's right there. I just, I just would, I don't want to get in the logical consistent, trying to be logically consistent in being like taking the position of believing that there are babies that are suffering fraternity in hell, which in, in Calvinism to, to take it to its logical end. That's what you have to basically consider.

Yeah. Well, no, no, no. I'm a, I know Calvinism very well. Well, nothing says that that is the case that there's any babies going to in hell, but I will say this, if it's the case, then they deserve it because we are all by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians two, three, who it says in Adam. I would not, I would not worship that God. Well then you better be careful what you say, because you might inadvertently blaspheme the true and living God. You have to understand what I just said. I hear you. No, no, no.

You're not as care reacting. I believe people that are there in error to, to ever make a claim against God. No, no, listen, listen. You just said you won't worship a God that, and I said, if they go to hell, then it's because they deserve it because all people are dead in their sins. And, but we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians two, three. I didn't say they did.

I said, if they did. And you said, I wouldn't worship God. So who are you to say what God should and should not do based on what you think a baby is? You think a baby is better off than an adult because he's, Oh, he's innocent. That's not biblical.

None of us are innocent. And if you go to Romans five 19, it says this, it says this Romans five 19 as through one man's disobedience, the mini were made sinners. That phrase were made sinners is the, the heiress passive indicative. It means that the people were made sinners by Adam's action. And if you don't like that, I mean, I just said, people just cross out your mind.

What's that? Not a just and loving God. How do you know what just and loving is? Who are you to say what is represented? I just read how God's character is represented, represented in the Bible in the same way that he would not allow for baby to be sacrificed. Excuse me. He did allow them to be sacrificed because he didn't stop the Canaanites right away, but he did send Israel in after a while for a couple hundred years to wipe all the Canaanites out. So they stopped that. So he did allow it.

He didn't allow it to be done for his name sake. Of course not. But you just changed what you said.

You just changed what you said. Do you agree that it says in Romans five 19 that the mini were made sinners by Adam sin? Yeah. The mini were made sinners. Who's the mini? Yes.

Who's the mini? All of mankind. Does that include babies? Yes.

There you go. But so if the babies are made, follow it to its logical lens. It appears that way. What do you mean it appears that way? If you want to be logically consistent and not taking account of like, no, that can't be the way that God would allow for things to play out.

I didn't say it would. You're not listening. You're reacting emotionally.

You're not hearing. I would say you say emotion, but I'd say in defense of God's word. In defense of God's character.

In my opinion, all babies who die go to heaven. Okay. I like that one. I'll go with that. Yeah. I believe that.

But I know the theology very well. Okay. Call back tomorrow. Talk about it some more. Okay. Come on, man.

Call me. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Okay. Sorry, Kevin from New York in Colossians 2 14. One of my favorite verses in the Bible. Rick from Ohio on UFOs. Call back tomorrow. We'll talk. God bless everybody. Have a good evening.