The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Hey, if you want to give me a call, all you gotta do is dial 877-207-2276 and we can blab, we can talk. Not a big deal, it's pretty easy. If you want to watch the show, all you gotta do is go to karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, and on the right hand side of the home page, you'll find what you need.
Find a link to the show and I'm just doing a little bit of adjustment in the lighting right now. All right, all right, we have open lines, 877-207-2276. All right, tomorrow's hate mail.
I know I did one yesterday, but I just, I had to do a hate mail yesterday, it was a good one. All right. Hey, and by the way, I teach a Bible study tonight online, I'm going through Romans. And we're in Romans 1, starting at verse 18 today, or tonight, and I put up all my notes for, oh boy, oh, sorry about that, put up all my notes today, up through verse, I think 24, I think it's what it was. If you were to go to KARM, if you want to look at the notes, and also there's a link to download them for Word, so you can use them, teach a Bible study with them if you want.
And going down through verse 23 tonight. Now there's a lot of really important and interesting stuff that we're going to be getting into tonight, and there's going to be some deep, some deep stuff we'll be getting into, so I'm just letting people know that if you want to join in and participate, you can do that. All right, I have links and information will be in there later. All right, all right, all right, 877-207-2276. And I want to hear from you, give me a call. All right, let's see, we'll get the contrast down on that.
I got, no, something's up with the lighting, and that's not right, we'll figure it out later. All right, let's just get on the air with, let's see, who would that be, W, Boy, Boy, I don't care, what's the name, Louisiana, welcome, you're on the air. Hey, Matt, this is Bojo.
Bojo? Oh, okay, I don't see the bottom of the letter, that's all. Okay. Yeah, same happened a couple of weeks ago, when I called me.
Well, yeah, the resolution on the way the new system is on my computer, I can't see all the letters, I only see the top half of letters, so it's a resolution thing. Well, Bojo is short, my name is Joseph, and I live in Louisiana. Okay. And I had asked a question before about the mind of Christ, remember, we went and found it in 1 Corinthians chapter 2. Yeah, verse 16, yes, mm-hmm, okay, yes. And I think we both agreed that the people that have been filled with the Holy Spirit have access to God, as Jesus did, and have the mind of Christ, is that far from... Well, that would be worked out, what that means, but you're on the right track.
So what's your question? All right, I was having a question yesterday with some people about the word Christ, and Messiah. All right, Messiah is simply the Hebrew form of it, Christ is Greek, basically, yeah, Mashiach and stuff, yeah, uh-huh. But neither, the discussion got to where neither one of these words refers to God. Well, that's not correct, Jesus is the Christ, he's God in flesh, so therefore it refers to God in that way, okay. I was under the impression that, yeah, I was under the impression that Jesus was the prophet that Moses spoke of, that God would raise up amongst the people. Okay, yes, yeah. In Deuteronomy chapter 18, where, you know, it talks about raising up the prophet, I will raise up a prophet, yes, among their countrymen like you, yes, I got you, I got you, yes, uh-huh, and that's Deuteronomy 18-15, yes, I'm with you, so what's the point about it, or question? Well, Paul and Peter and the others, you know, were filled with the Spirit, Jerusalem, and they began to speak the Word of God.
Yeah, huh? Do you have a, okay, let me ask you, do you have a question, do you have a question? Because you're going all over the place, and it's as though you want to teach, I want to know if you have a question. I want to know how people got the idea that Jesus is God. Because the Bible says that Jesus is God. John 1-1 and verse 14, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Verse 14, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He's called God in Hebrews 1-8, where God the Father is speaking, says, but of the Son, he says, thy throne, O God, is forever and ever. And in John 20, 25-28, Doubting Thomas says to Jesus, after Jesus rises from the dead and shows him, he says, the Lord of me and the God of me.
Jesus says in John 8-58, before Abraham was, I am, they want to kill him for claiming the divine title for himself. In 1 Corinthians 1-2, Paul the Apostle says that everyone calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus, the phrase called upon the name of the Lord, is a Greek equivalent of the Old Testament phrase called upon the name of Yahweh, that's his name, the name of God, and it's applied to Jesus. So yeah, Jesus is definitely God, didn't he go into what's called the Granville Sharp Rule of Titus 2-13, the great God and Savior, Jesus. So Jesus is God in flesh, okay? It looks to me like Jesus called upon the name of the Lord himself. No, we call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, alright? Jesus prayed to the Father, the Doctor of the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three distinct simultaneous persons in the Godhead. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and he was made unto the law, Galatians 4-4, for a little while, Lord, and the angels, Hebrews 2-9. So therefore, under the law, he would pray to God the Father, it does not mean he is not divine.
He has two distinct natures, a divine nature and a human nature, this is called the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is God in flesh. Well should I pray to Jesus or should I pray to God? Jesus is God in flesh, you can pray to Jesus, you can pray to the Father, you can pray to the Holy Spirit, you can just pray to God, okay? If you deny that he's God in flesh, you can't be saved, you cannot be a Christian.
Are you kidding? No, I'm not kidding, Jesus said in John 8-24, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins, as Jesus says. Now in Exodus 3-14 and 15, Moses said to God, well what's your name? And God says to Moses, I am that I am, thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I am, has sent me to you. And Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins, okay? I'm familiar with those verses, yeah, but I thought Gabriel was sent by God to a girl about having a baby to be named Jesus.
Okay, let's try this again. I don't know what you're getting at, I don't know what relevance that has. Jesus has two natures, he's both divine and human, okay, that's what the Bible teaches. Anybody who denies that ultimately is a spirit of the Antichrist, okay?
Okay, well, thank you for, thank you for your time, and do you affirm that to the program, and do you affirm that Jesus is God in flesh, or do you deny it? No, I think he was anointed by God. He was anointed by God, yes, the Son of God in John 5.18, he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. Calling God his own Father, I call God my Father, does that make me calling myself equal to God?
No, it says, this is what the context was of Jesus, Jesus was calling God his own Father making himself equal to God, that's John 5.18, because in the context of who and what Jesus was teaching, and had been teaching about himself, okay, is that right? I'm gonna probably stick with, yeah, I understand it's there, but I'm gonna stick with what, you know, Jesus said, when you pray, pray this way, our Father, the Lord, the Father. Yes you do, you prayed it, yeah, Matthew 6 and Luke 11. Here's the thing, in Psalm 116 4, there's a, it says, that I called upon the name of Yahweh, oh Yahweh I beseech you, save my life. To call upon the name of Yahweh is to pray to Yahweh. When the Greek, when the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek, in the Septuagint, they took that phrase, they translated it as call upon the name of the Lord. The phrase, call upon the name of the Lord, in the Greek Old Testament, means to pray to worship and adore God. That phrase is used by Paul the Apostle in reference to Jesus, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, okay, that's what the Bible's teaching. You need to affirm what the Bible says, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, you cannot be saved, you are not a Christian, you cannot go to heaven. You will go to hell.
Well, let me give that some thought and I'll get back with you on another program, Matt. Alright, have you ever studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses? No I haven't. Good, it's a cult. Have you ever studied with Unitarians? I am familiar with a couple of Unitarians, but I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Unitarian until about seven years ago. Yes, so have you studied with them?
No, I studied before I ever met one of them. So I've been studying the scriptures for about forty years. Then you have failed to understand the scriptures properly. You know everything is debatable in today's world, but anyway.
Not everything is debatable, excuse me, not everything is debatable, two plus two is four whether you want it to believe it or not. The truth is the Bible says that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, but of the Son He says, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever. Hebrews 1.8, God the Father calls the Son God. This is what the Bible teaches. You have, I'm being polite here, but you have failed to understand the Word of God properly. You do not know what it actually teaches about Jesus. I believe Gabriel told Mary that the Lord God was going to give her son the throne of his father David and his kingdom would have no end. We agree. And Jesus also is God in flesh.
Also, not instead of, in addition to. Jesus has three offices, prophet, priest, and king. The three offices of Christ. You need to read John chapter eight. You need to, well actually, what I would do is if I were you, go to my website and read the articles on Jesus.
You can go to CARM and type out is Jesus God and it will give you the verses, it will give you everything you need to study it, if you deny he's God in flesh, then you won't be damned. That's just a reality, okay? I'm trying to tell you. All right, call again, Roger, okay? All right. Thank you.
All right. Hey folks, three open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276, here's Matt Slick.
All right everyone, welcome back to the show. I just want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support if you are so kind as to consider supporting us, please go to CARM.org forward slash donate. We ask any amount you want to give, and you can put in any amount. We have different suggestions and stuff like that, and I would ask that you would consider supporting us.
Don't need very much, we just need enough. So if God's put on your heart to do that, please consider doing that, all right. Let's get to, let's see, that would be Jason from Arizona. Jason, welcome, you're on the air. Thank you, Matt. On your phone call, I'll make a donation on your website, I seriously appreciate what you do.
Thanks. You're one of the few teachers or people that I've met that do not give their opinion, but are very strict with interpretation of the word, and I just really appreciate that. So it's, you clear up a lot of nonsense, you know, and I appreciate you. Well, thanks for signing on, I really do appreciate it. I want to be faithful to the word of God, it's what it says, not what I say, that's the issue. Well, that's why I'm calling you, because you're one of the few people I trust when it comes to handling the word.
It's horrifying how many people give their opinions, and I don't want their opinion, I want to be taught the truth, but anyhow, I just started studying basic Greek grammar to help me understand the New Testament better. I'm a novice, very, very new to this, and I just made a few little notes here about the aorist passive subjunctive, and if I'm wrong about these little notes I made, which will just take me about 10 seconds to read, then you can correct me on that if I'm not understanding correctly, but this, my notes say, if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possibility, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. Is that correct? That's what I understand, yes. Certain constructions in the subjunctive mood bring the necessity, not just the possibility, yes, and it's been a while, but yes, that is definitely there with it, and if you go to varying grammars, I can give you some grammars you can go through, they'll talk about that, and they'll give you examples. Okay, thank you.
I just started doing this, so I'm just trying to get my thoughts straight. So, do I have time for a quick reference to the church scripture? Oh, okay, I don't want to take too much of your time, but, so Strong's G4982 is in 1 Corinthians 5, 5, and it's the aorist passive subjunctive, so this, then in my understanding, is not expressing a possibility, but what I just previously spoke, that a positive result of him being handed over to Satan, that his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. What verse was that?
1 Corinthians what? Five. Five, five. Sorry if I'm talking too quickly. Oh, no, no, no, I was just moving things around on my screen, because I have books open on the grammars. I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so his spirit may be saved.
Right. So, it's a conditioned necessity that is, yes, that's right, okay, yeah, let me tell you something about Greek, okay, I had four and a half years of it in college and seminary, and it's, when you learn Greek, you almost have to learn another language along with Greek. You have to learn the tools of learning Greek, so you have to learn what subjunctive is, what mood is, aorist, passive-active voice. You have to learn about conjugation, parsing, you're just going to learn all of it, because you have to, because that's how the books talk. That's what they do when they teach it. So what you're doing is just beginning that process. I would recommend that what you do is get a note-taking system on Word or on the cloud, whatever you want to do, where you find that particular thing, like a subjunctive mood, and then different usages of it that have slightly different meanings according to the construction, because this is what it takes.
In exams, we had to know these things and then be able to give examples, translations, and things like this. It was tough, but it was doable. So just so I'm clear in my own brain, Paul, from my notes here, most people are reading this as this is a possibility, but my notes say you're not interpreted as a possibility, but because of the action of handing him over to Satan, the definite outcome is the result of spirit being saved on the day of the Lord. Is that the correct interpretation? That's what I understand it to be, yes.
You know, reading all of these people's opinions, they're like... This is why I started to study Greek, because people were giving their opinions, but then when I delved deeper, it's like, wait a minute, that's really not what it's saying, because may can express a possibility, but it can also express a definite outcome as a result of an action. I would have never known that, Matt, had I not started embarking on my journey to learn Greek, and I realized, I almost thought, for me, I have to really learn this, because there's too many open interpretations that Greek closes the door, you know? You taught me who may, you know, that negation in Hebrews, double negation, where it's impossible for the Lord to...
I bought your book where you said it's impossible for the Lord to leave us, but if you don't know Greek, it's very hard to get that message from the English, you know? Yes. So, anyway.
That's correct. I could talk all day. God bless you. I'll make a payment right now, Matt. God bless.
Okay, before you go, though, and thanks for your support, we appreciate it, consider looking at Lenski, L-E-N-S-K-I. He was a Lutheran scholar, a Greek scholar, and I enjoy a lot of what he has to say. He'll often go into the Greek and bring out issues like that. And so, let's see, I'm trying to find a C if he has it, wait, it's 1 Corinthians, what was that verse? 1 Corinthians 1-2, right? 1 Corinthians 5-5. Right.
So, I'm looking here at Lenski, oh, I was looking at the wrong one, because I was trying to find it and my windows went all over the place. So, because he'll do stuff like this, maybe save in necessity, I'm starting to see, it's one of the things I'll do. Anyway, when I'm studying something like this, just like you're doing, you're looking at a verse, you're looking at the Greek, you're looking at the tense, you're looking at the mood, looking at the voice, and you want to know, okay, what does it mean? Because you can't just say, for example, that active voice means he's performing the action, that's all it ever means, because it might be that active voice means something in historical sense when it was acted upon a different way. They have these Greek constructions and rules that get to be very annoying, and I'll tell you, very annoying.
It's like, as I like to say, the Greeks invented Greek not because they used it, but because they wanted to kill people in the future, torment them, because there are just lots of rules. And so, I've learned a lot of things about the Greek, and that thing you have actually said, literally, is one of the issues I've had to study in the past, and you're correct. You've got a right understanding.
It doesn't mean it's every time, but that's what it is in most of the cases, yes it is. Good stuff, man, okay? Thank you, take care, bye bye. All right, Jason, God bless. Hey, we have three open lines, we want to give you a call, 877-207-2276, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276, here's Matt Slick.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the show, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276, let's get to LW from North Carolina, welcome, you're on the air. Good evening, Matt, I enjoy your show every day and learn from it, ditto about Jason's comments about you. So, my question is around this, I understand the doctrine of election, and have no problem with it. And my question, though, around that is, when I am in discussion with my friends who are more of an Armenian mindset, so how do I, in discussing this topic and also believing that God in His sovereignty had His Son to sacrifice Himself for all of us, how do I reconcile those two mindsets, those two theologies, if you will, in discussion? I believe them both, but my mind won't wrap around the link between the two. I'm sorry?
I kind of missed it, that's all right. The link between the two what? The two, I guess, ideologies or theologies of the fact that Jesus died for all, but yet some are elected to salvation, some are not. So, election is the teaching that God Himself, the Father, chose to give to the Son a group of people. That's Ephesians 1.4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. This is God's right and sovereign work and will to elect.
So He elected certain people, and the Bible is all over the place, it talks about this. All right. Now you're talking about that issue of, now you're stretching it with the nature of the atonement, right? You died for all? What does it mean?
That's correct. What does it mean to die for them? What does it mean? As I understand it, that is the free gift that He offers to everyone long before any of us were born. He offers to everyone? Offers what? Offers the atonement of His salvation as our atonement of sin.
Okay. So we would agree that Christ is commanding everyone everywhere to repent, Acts 17.30. Now here's the thing about atonement a lot of people don't get, is atonement does not make something possible. It accomplishes it. So a propitiation, for example, the Greek alosmos, propitiation means the sacrifice that turns away wrath. It doesn't mean it's made possible to be turned away. It's accomplished.
It's done. A lot of Christians don't understand this. A lot of Christians think that the work of Christ is dependent on my goodness. So that Jesus died on the cross bearing our sins and it only becomes effective if I do something. But that means that what Christ did in of itself isn't sufficient. Do you see the problems there?
I do, yes. So for example, let's work with this because we need to lay a foundation down. So what I want to do is read Colossians 2, 13 and 14. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. And he's taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. So Colossians 2, 14 says he canceled out the certificate of debt.
The word certificate of debt in Greek is one word, kyrographon, handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness. In the previous verse, it says having forgiven us all our transgressions, verse 14, having canceled out the certificate of debt. It's the sin that he canceled, right?
That's correct. Okay. Now when I ask you when is it canceled, I'm going to read the verse again because the answer is in the verse. Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and he's taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. So when is the sin debt canceled?
It's canceled when he sacrificed him, when he was sacrificed on the cross. Great. So it's not made effective if we believe it, right? Correct.
It's already effective. That's right. So what happens when we believe is not that the atonement is made active.
It's that we're justified. The atonement occurs on the cross 2,000 years ago. He canceled a sin debt there. Now the question then logically requires, and who did he cancel it for? Did he cancel it for every individual who ever lived or not for every individual who ever lived? If he canceled it for every individual who ever lived, then that would necessitate that God could not condemn them to hell because there's no sin attached to them.
It's gone. It's not dependent on their action of believing. To make it go away, it's already done. It's paid. So if you have a bill, and I pay your bill, and you're not even aware of it, your awareness or not, or acceptance or not, is irrelevant to whether or not the actuality of the debt has been finished and paid. It's not dependent on you receiving it.
It's dependent upon the one performing the action. And unfortunately what happens in Christian churches today, they put the onus of accomplishment on themselves, not on Christ. So they have man-centered theology, not Christ-centered theology. With man-centered theology comes a whole host of other problems and a weakness in the church because man then becomes the center of righteousness and truth and measurement and things like this instead of Christ. And we follow after man instead of God. I connect those dots, but there's quite a few in between that connect them.
This is the kind of thing that happens. And so when you're talking about this with someone about election, God has chosen people because that's what the Bible says, Ephesians 1.4. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world that would be holy and blameless.
That's what it says. So Jesus says, that's right. So Jesus came, he says, all that the Father gives me will come to me, John 6.36. It doesn't say all who come to me, the Father will then give to me, which is what most people think is the case.
They're man-centered again. Wherever they come to me, my work, then God will give me to Jesus based on what I do. This is the opposite of biblical theology, and it's being taught in churches all over the world, unfortunately. Sure. Simple.
Okay, so there's some biblical theology, and Christian pastors and elders who teach to the contrary of this need to repent, flat out need to repent, but anyway, go ahead. Yep. Okay. Well, that is, that is helpful there. You know, I guess I've been understanding too that, you know, the atonement is for everyone, but understanding what you're saying there, that it is still for an elect amount, a few.
Well, let me try this. Let me read you this. This is 1 Samuel 3.14, all right?
You ready for this? This is God talking. Therefore, I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquities of Eli's house will not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever. So did Jesus atone for the sins of Eli's house?
I'll repeat it. It says no, absolutely not. That's right. And did he atone for Judas Iscariot's betrayal? Did he take away that sin? Because to die for someone's sin is to pay the sin debt. That's what it means.
He died for the sins. Whether the gift is received, yeah, whether it's received or not, it is still paid. Yep. That's right.
Yep, I got you. When I ask people, what does it mean that he died for our sins? They haven't thought it through. People don't think these things through. Well, he died for our sins. Okay, what does it mean?
I don't know. And most people don't know what it means, and they've been going to church for years and don't know. What does that tell you about the pastors and teachers out there who aren't equipping them? Right, it's what we're getting from the pulpit. That's why I tell people, and I'm teaching Romans tonight, and I tell people, I warn them. I say, if you go through the study of Romans with me, it'll take about a year, I said, two things will happen. Your theology will change, and it'll be right based on scripture. That's one thing.
And the other thing is, you'll become more disappointed with the preaching that you'll hear. I said, you've got to be careful. All right? Thank you, man. Okay. All right, God bless. Thank you.
All right. Hey, we're coming up for the last break. If you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276. We'll get to Anthony from Virginia on the Trinity next.
That's going to be interesting. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.
Here's Matt Slick. All right. Everybody, welcome back to the show.
Three open lines, 877-207-2276. Oh, man. Thanks, Noel. You messed me up. Made me laugh.
877-207-2276 in the chat. The camera's on, and the people in the back, or could see the stuff on the back wall, and someone said, need more stuff on the back wall. So we put in questions, and one person said tacos. At any rate, so hey, folks, just want to let you know that we stay on the air, buy your support. Please consider supporting us. We definitely need that, and to stay on the air and give answers, well, it takes some support. So if you like what you hear, well, please consider supporting us.
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Hey, Matt. I heard you speaking to a gentleman earlier in the show about the notion of Jesus being God, and I had a couple verses that I wanted to throw at you and kind of clarify for me. Sure.
All right. So in John 20, 17, Jesus says, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God. So if Jesus is God, how does God have a God? We have to be careful of what's called equivocation. Let me give an example. Time is past, present, and future.
The present is time, therefore the present is past, present, and future. This is called the fallacy of equivocation, where a single word changes its meaning in the usage. When we say that Jesus is God, what we're saying is not that he's the Trinity, but that he has the divine nature.
That's what we're saying. So when Jesus is praying to his God, he's talking about God the Father, because Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels, Hebrews 2, 9, and made under the law, Galatians 4, 4. Under the law, he had to pray to God. That would be God the Father. That's why he says, Father, glorify me with the glory I had with you before the foundation of the world, John 17, 5.
So that's what's going on there. So that's why you have to be careful of my Father and your God. How can God have a God? That's where the confusion comes in, because how can God, Jesus' God, have a God? Now you're talking about two gods. That's not how the word is to be used. If he is divine, how can he have someone who is God above him?
That's the right way to ask the question, and I already provided the answer, okay? Okay, so I actually didn't understand. So Jesus is calling the Father God and saying that that's his God, which would imply that Jesus is not God, because a God cannot have a being over him or superior to him. Jesus was made under the law, Galatians 4, 4. He was cooperating with limitations of being a man, Philippians 2, 5 through 8. Yeah, but he's still God. Excuse me, let me finish, okay? Hebrews 2, 9, he's made for a little while lower than the angels. I'm giving you the basis for the answer.
You with me? The condition of the word under the law. He had cooperated with limitations of being a man.
He's made for a little while lower than the angels. He was in a lesser position, and he has two natures, he's divine and human, and therefore he would pray to someone he would call God. That's the Father, okay? All right, so what you're saying is that in John 8 and 10, Jesus is claiming to be God, but then later on saying that he has a God.
Okay. Does he say he has a God? Well he calls the Father my God, so that's like, he says my God and your God, so he's putting himself on the same level as the other people there and saying we both have the same God, so a God cannot have a God. A God cannot have a God. See when you say that, you're misrepresenting what the text says.
A God means a single God, another God, that means two Gods. That's not what the argument is, that's not what the answer was about. So you're not hearing what I'm telling you.
You're not listening. Do you understand that the Doctor- Don't you think Jesus is confusing people there when he says that God, that the Father is his God? Do you understand what the Doctor of the Trinity is? Do you understand what the Doctor of the Trinity is? The Trinity, it's the Trinity is that the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit are all persons of the same God, so neither one is God of the other one, they're all co-equal with each other, supposedly. Well you added that, ignoring the condition of the incarnation of the word.
So you set yourself up for a contradiction, and it's unnecessary. So the Doctor of the Trinity, three distinct simultaneous co-eternal persons, the Word was with God and the Word became flesh, right? The Word was God, right? That's what it says, yes. So that means Jesus is God in flesh, right? Not necessarily.
So when the Bible says, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and then the Word became flesh, does that say that God became flesh? I think this is a, well you've probably heard of the Proverbs 8 argument, I'm guessing. That's wisdom and it's in the feminine, I'm not applying here. So I ask you a question, and I want you to think logically. If A equals B, and B equals C, then does A equal C?
Say it again. Okay, that's called the Law of Proper Inference. If the Word is God, and the Word becomes flesh as Jesus, then Jesus is God. Okay, that's the Law of Proper Inference. If the Word is God, the Word becomes flesh, that's Jesus, then Jesus is God. Okay, do you accept or deny that logic?
Yeah, there are interpretations of that Word though. I ask you a question, do you accept or deny that logic? There is the logic, but you have to understand the context. I ask you a question, do you accept or do you deny the logic? Yeah, as it's stated, your logic is clear, but there's another question to consider. Wait a second, let me ask you another question. Do you accept or deny that logic?
Accept or deny, which is it? If it was only that verse, yes, but would the... We'll move along. Okay, we're going to move along because we've got callers waiting. Now folks, I ask the exact same question and he doesn't answer the question. This is nothing but simple logic. We move on after he says, yes, I understand the logic and I agree the logic is true. Then we can move on and deal with the other verses, but notice what he's not doing. He's not affirming what the Scripture says because he's trying to set Scripture against Scripture. I've had thousands of conversations like this with people and we just don't get anywhere if they can't answer a simple question and I have to ask the same question three, four, five times.
It just is not conducive, so he needs to understand if he wants to call again, what he has to do is actually answer the question and then once the question is answered, then we can move on, but he doesn't want to do that so we don't have a conversation. Let's get to Scott from North Carolina. Scott, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you very much. I appreciate you taking my call.
A long time ago, first time caller. My question is very specific. It's about a Jehovah's Witness. I am a Christian, have been for 25 years and I ended up in a dialogue with a co-worker who I knew was a Jehovah's Witness and so we had a very lengthy conversation today and of course, they don't believe in the Trinity, they don't believe that Jesus is God and so I kept referring her to passages in the Bible and I've been listening and given some great references, but here is what I didn't know how to respond to. She kept parking herself on the 144,000 and that when they die, their souls are not separated from their bodies and there's only 144,000 and she kept going back there trying to get me to say, what's that all about? What does that mean if Christians believe that if you have faith and you believe in Jesus Christ and you will go to heaven? And so that's what I didn't know how to answer. All right, so the 144,000 in Jehovah's Witness theology is basically the 144,000 are the only ones that Jesus bore the sin of and redeemed and that everybody else has to earn their salvation through their works and we're called the swine class, I am, and that there's the earthly class, there's the heavenly class and so only the 144,000 are allowed to take communion.
I don't know if you knew this or not. Now what you can do is you can go to where Jesus says, if you don't take this communion, you don't have no part of me, and then you can, I forgot the exact verse, but you can show it to her and say, you mentioned the 144,000, did some research that Jesus only died for the 144,000, right? That's what I'm going to say because it mediates only for them.
Desire of peace and security worldwide, 1986, page 10. Likewise, the greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind, he's the mediator between his heavenly father Jehovah God and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to 144,000 members. So they don't have a mediator. She does not because she's not 144,000 and the 144,000 are supposed to be male virgin Jews. You go to Revelation 14 and read upon this and it says in verse 14, these are the ones who have not been defiled with women for they have kept themselves chaste. And it can't be a woman, the guy was not talking about lesbianism, homosexuality. That's what you can do is you can say, right there, I did some research on Revelation 14, okay? And there it is.
So you can ask questions. Now what's going to happen is, I'll tell you, you've got to be very, very careful because as long, because she's brainwashed, as long as she thinks she's teaching you, she'll continue. As soon as you showed her difficulties, you can't answer, generally they just quit. Okay, well you're obviously not interested in it, that's it. One of the things I would suggest you entertain the idea of doing is asking her to go to church.
You go to her church, the Kingdom Hall. Don't go to debate, just go to learn and observe because you need to understand what you're up against. You're up against a brainwashing cult and you need to see them in action, okay? And it'll give you a lot more sympathy. It'll also earn you a little bit of right to speak and I'll talk to you quickly because we're at the end of the show. So I've written well over 100 articles on Jehovah's Witness Theologies, on Karm, you can go through.
There are ways to destroy their arguments and absolutely destroy them. One of the things you want to do is generally stay with the Trinity and the deity of Christ because they're so trained on that. What I like to do is go with, how are your sins forgiven? Once you're softened up in that, then you can introduce the idea of your trust in Christ.
He forgives me all my sins. Why should I trust in what you have, and you're slowly working towards who Christ is at that point. I gave you a lot, I gave it fast, and I'm sorry about that, we're at the end of the show. No, no, I appreciate that, and I will go to your website, yeah, I just didn't know quite how to respond to that, and you know, she's open.
I'm getting a sense that she has a lot of questions because I think she's at Jehovah's because her husband told her, you're at Jehovah's. You know what, we're out of time. I want you to call back, and we can talk, I can coach you, and stuff like that, and we can work together. Okay? Alright. Wonderful.
Thank you. Sorry, we're out of time. Alright. Okay. Alright. Sorry about that, Heather from North Carolina and Jones from Austin, Texas.
Sorry about that. And we've got to go. May the Lord bless you. By His grace, we're back on there tomorrow, and we'll talk to you then. Have a great evening, everyone. We'll see you next time.
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