Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Let's look live. Hey, we've got a bit of a special show today to let you know. So Eddie, the reason I didn't have my headset on or set up right.

That's why I couldn't hear you inside a stream yard. So what we're going to do is we're going to have Eddie Delcore. He's a great apologist. And we're going to also have probably George Saig. He's a great apologist. And Anthony Rogers, he's a great apologist. And we're going to be discussing Islam because they're doing a conference. And I wanted to promote the conference because these guys are great. I've known George for a long time and met these other guys too in the past few years.

They're great guys. And there's going to be a conference for born-again Christians. The first 20 people to use the promo code slick will get 70% off.

And if you're in California and coming in person, I guess it's going to be in California, huh? It is seven vouchers for free if you slick. If you text slick, we'll be doing it again, to 714-391-10. No, I just messed up.

714-391-0467. And so what I'll be doing is we'll be going over that again. Now, we're supposed to have 200 guys call in. What we're going to do is we're going to kind of play it by ear a little bit. We're just going to do it. We're just going to see what's going to happen.

So let me just get on the air here with Eddie. How are you there, buddy? Hey, man. How are you doing? Doing all right, man. Hey, sorry about the little bit of confusion there.

The reason I couldn't talk is because I had one of my settings on my computer wrong. It's at a stream yard. You can get back in the stream yard if you want. It's not a big deal. But if I go back on, you cannot hear me, though, right? Yeah, we can hear you here.

It doesn't matter. Saying the phone here is fine. And hopefully George will come on in a little bit because he and I were chatting in text a little bit ago, and I think Anthony is supposed to call, too. So we'll get it figured out.

But this is what I just found out. I just found out that I'll be on the air here with you, and if George calls, then we can get him on. But if Anthony calls, then we can't get him on. We only have two people on with me simultaneously at a time. We can probably switch later in the show which one goes.

It's no big deal. Well, I'm probably the most significant one to have on, so you can keep me. See, that's why I like you guys, you know, because people who listen to this show, they'll get a kick out of that because we have fun.

I like to have fun on the show and things like that. So, look, folks, if you are interested in information about Islam, we have some experts calling in today. Eddie Delcore, he'll introduce himself a little bit. And we'll talk about the conference that's going to be going on. It looks like it's going to be going on in California on September 10th. And, yeah, that's right, Ministry to Muslims. We're going to have Eddie Delcore and also Anthony Rogers along with George Tsai.

I guess it's going to be good stuff. So, hey, Eddie, tell you what, man, tell you what, why don't you just introduce yourself to everybody, tell them what you do, where you are, and all of that kind of stuff. Right. I'm Edward Delcore. I'm in sunny hot right now at 110, I think, where I'm at in California. We're having somewhat of a heat wave. But I live here. We have an educational apologetic ministry called Department of Christian Defense.

We've had this since the mid or late 90s. And it's just an informational hub. And I teach at a couple seminaries. I enjoy what I do.

And I'm delighted to be online with you. I know you and I did a lot of things. I don't know if you remember, Matt, we were going to go to Columbia.

Right before I bought the plane ticket, the pandemic happened. Remember, we were going to go with Luis and Pastor Carlos. That's right.

Luis Carlos Reyes, he's awesome. I almost bought that ticket. Almost. I keep busy with that. Yeah. But I'm delighted. Oh.

No problem. I just messed up. I hit the air thing, and I messed up, and I hung up on him.

Oh, man, that is not good. Hey, George, are you there? Yes.

Oh, George. Yeah, so I just hung up on Eddie. No, I did it by accident, because I was trying to get you on with him.

So I've got to make sure. So Keith, because I understand, is Eddie on? Keith put him on.

Hey, Eddie. My bad, man. I hung up on you accidentally. We got George on. Cool, man. Nothing personal. So, yeah, you were saying we almost went down to Columbia, and, you know, we went down to U.S. Carlos Reyes.

I remember that trip. Just by any chance, do you hear me right now on StreamYard, or is it just the phone? No, you're not on StreamYard. You had to go in there with the same StreamYard thing I gave you, put in the text there, and it should be fine. We'll get you in. Okay.

Yeah, when you go to StreamYard, they want you to go directly on YouTube. Anyways, we're having a great conference this coming up, and I think the 9th, right? Yeah, I'm looking at the information.

It's on the 9th, 10th, and 11th of September, and it's going to be at Calvert Chapel at 17451 Bastonshire Road. Who did we lose? Okay, we lost Edward, and we lost Eddie. Hey, George, are you there?

Let's try this. George, are you there? I am here. All right, George. Sorry about that.

We had a couple of technical issues there. We're working it out. Look, I want to introduce you to everybody, because I really have a lot of respect for you, George. I really do. We've known each other for a few years, and you just have a heart for Muslims. I've seen you witness. I've seen how you witness. I remember when you were in Seattle a few years ago together, and you were witnessing the Muslims. I could see the compassion in your face and your tone.

You were witnessing in Arabic and English. I just think you're a great guy. You really do. I'm not just saying it, but you love the Lord Jesus. Anyway, having said that, why don't you introduce yourself to everybody, and just move along here. Okay.

Thank you so much for allowing us to be with you today. Yes, my name is George. I don't know if the voice I'm hearing myself again is... I think you have your computer on.

Yeah, you have to turn your computer down if you have it on for feedback or anything else. Just stay on the radio here, on the phone. Yeah. Anyway, our ministry is Ministry to Muslims.com. I'm originally from Sudan.

I came to Sudan over 20 years ago, and my desire is to reach out to Muslims in the U.S. We've been reaching Muslims since 2001, a few months before September 11. Actually, the name of the event is Our Strong Tower, as a memory of September 11. They were able to destroy our towers in New York, but they will not be able to destroy our strong tower. Right. Amen, brother, amen. It's going to be at a chapel sitting, Grace, in Yorba Linda, right? Yorba Linda, California.

Calvary Chapel, saving grace on September 11 itself. On September 9 and 10, it will be at Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills, in Chino Hills, Pacific Chino Hills, but most of them in Southern California, those days, those locations. What we'll do is we'll put the information out on our newsletter, because a lot of people in Southern California receive the newsletter. We're not on the air down there, but you never know, people have connections from all over, and so we're in Utah, we're in Ohio, we're on the East Coast here in radio, so people do call in from all over California as well. So we have some people in Bakersfield, we have some people in SoCal, San Diego, and stuff who listen. Anyway, I'm sure people will be showing up. So, September 9 and 10 will be in Chino, California, and on the 11th it will be in Yorba Linda, California. All right, both of them are at Calvary Chapel.

Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills, Calvary Chapel, saving grace, good. Good. And so, we've got Eddie Delcore on, and also it's going to be Anthony Rogers speaking there, right?

Yes. Anthony Rogers, and we also have Reverend Samuel Green coming all the way from Australia. We have Hatun, warrior for Christ, she's from the UK, she's originally Turkish.

The Muslims tried to kill her quite a few times, even a few months ago they stabbed her, but the Lord rested her life on them, and she will be with us. She's an amazing sister, and I would love to get as many people as possible to come and hear her testimony, and to also learn about how to answer Muslim objections, and how to challenge the Islamic faith as well. And also, we're going to have Dr. Tony Costa and Dr. Jay Smith, you guys are going to have their full house.

Yes. Following the conference, we're having an outreach every single day for a whole week. It's going to be really awesome.

If you are local in California, we would love to partner with you. But also, for those out of California that are not in California, and they would like to join us, the whole conference, it will be live online. Plus, we have two debates during the conference, two debates between Shadid Lewis, which you debated before, Shadid, you guys actually, debated him in Atlanta, Georgia, and debated him in Washington State.

But he will be debating Anthony Rogers, two debates. The first one on, John chapter one talks about Muhammad. Remember when the Jews asked John the Baptist, are you Elijah, are you the Messiah, are you the prophet? The Jewish, in that text, assuming there are three different individuals they're looking for, and they say, okay, he's not the Messiah, and Jesus is the Messiah, then who's the prophet? It has to be Muhammad.

We're debating that topic, but also we're debating, as Isaiah 53 talks about the suffering Messiah, is Jesus the suffering Messiah, or the suffering servant. It will be great debates. Anyone can join us. And we assign the debates at 4 o'clock on September 10 and 11 Pacific time. This way, it's reasonable time, even across the country.

It can be 6 or 7 o'clock for you. If you want to show it in your church life, we can hook you up and connect you to be able to broadcast it at your church or at your home with a group of people watching together. Just let us know how we can make it available for you. Wow. And let's just go to Ministry2Muslims.com, right? Ministry2Muslims.com, Ministry2Muslims.com.

And right there, you're going to see our strong tower banner. Click on that. It will take you to the details and how you can get your ticket. But also, for those that get their tickets today, you can use Flick as your portal code, and you will be able to get 70% off today if you use promo code Flick. Okay. SLICK. Good. Wow. Okay. So, all right.

So, let's see. The time is going to be, is it 9.30 p.m., and that is Eastern Time or what? 2.30 to 9.30. All the stuff on the flyer I sent you is the Pacific Time. All Pacific Time, okay. Pacific Time, yeah. 4 p.m. is Pacific Time for the faith. All the details are at the website, and I really encourage you.

It's going to be a really great event, and you will learn how to challenge the Muslim faith and also how to defend the Christian faith, and also you're going to give techniques and how to show the gospel to Muslims. Well, let's do that. Let's talk a little bit more about it after the break. And folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show.

We are on the air here with Eddie Delcore and George Saig. We're talking about the Strong Tower Conference in Southern California as an outreach to Muslims. If you have a question about Islam Month, we have some experts here. I mean, I know stuff, but these guys, they've forgotten more about Islam since lunch today than I've ever learned. They know a lot of stuff. George speaks Arabic.

He can tell you all kinds of stuff from the inside. So, gentlemen, welcome back. You guys still there?

Yeah. I'm still here. How are you doing, Matt? Hi, George. Hi. And so, I don't know if Anthony is going to call or not, but yeah, I was looking at the website. There's a lot of good information there, registration, live online.

You can watch that, tables for ministries and various things. And then now George is there on the stream as well. Hey, George, I'm waving to you.

We're looking at him on StreamYard, too. He's got to stay on the phone, though. You've got to stay on the phone, okay? So, he'll have to call back in, and it's just technology stuff. So, George called back in.

That's getting the phone, because that's how we do it. And so, Eddie, I'm going to ask if anybody's interested in calling about Islam and questions of Islam, because I've got questions I could ask you guys, and we could talk about Islam for a while so that they can see what it is and stuff. What are you going to be speaking on, incidentally, at the conference? I'm going to speak on two particular topics.

We're going to do it a little differently. I'm basically going to give a positive affirmation on both the reliability of the New Testament, which is most attacked, because the New Testament is that which affirms Christ and redemption, crucifixion, the only means of salvation, and Jesus as God, man. So, I'm going to be presenting a positive affirmation on the Trinity.

I'm going to put it in—actually, I'm going to do it in bullet points. And then we're going to have an objector, either one of the hosts or sound clips, who will be presenting some of the main—and you know, nothing's new under the sun. They're all the same old, tired, boring objections that Muslims, actually all Unitarians, make. And then we'll respond to those objections, namely on the deity of Christ and the Trinity. The other topic that I will be addressing is the Trinity and the New Testament reliability. So on both, that's what we'll do, present a positive affirmation on both, and we'll have someone present objections on the New Testament reliability and on the doctrine of the nature of God, which is, you know, it's just really interesting. You would think they would craft, at least Unitarians, craft new arguments against the Trinity, or even the New Testament reliability, other than the old one that everyone uses.

But they don't, so we'll just hear these recycled arguments again and deal with those two topics. Reliability of the New Testament. And I'll be speaking on lower criticism or biblical criticism, which really has to do with— it answers the question, do we have in our hands what was written in the first century? That's what lower criticism answers. I won't be dealing much with higher criticism, which gets extremely subjective and deals with dates, it deals with authorship and all these other things.

But lower is more objective, and we'll deal with, frankly, do we have a representation of the first-century authors in terms of their original composition? Oh, that's going to be interesting. Boy, I wouldn't mind attending that conference, being able to watch online. So, well, hey, you know, I've always got stuff to learn. You guys are great. So, George, are you there? Online, George?

Yes. Okay, we'll hear you. So, we're watching you on StreamYard, but also on the radio here. So, okay, we'll talk with the conference again. We're going to put some information up on CARM, and we'll send it out in our newsletter so you guys can even have a better, hopefully, turnout.

I know that you're going to probably have a really good turnout in SoCal there. It's a good place for it. So, I want to ask you some questions. Is it okay if I ask you guys some Muslim questions, the Islam stuff? Sure. All right. Now, George, I know you speak Arabic, right?

Yep. So, this is such a generic, easy question. And I want to play off what Eddie said here a little bit. But, George, what do they say about Jesus? What do the Muslims actually say about who Jesus is? What Muslims say who Jesus is, not necessarily what their book says who Jesus is. Muslims says Jesus is just a prophet.

That's what they expect that, that Jesus. And because the Qur'an does say that Jesus is not more than a prophet, even though the Qur'an says Jesus is not more than a prophet, there's one thing you need to know. The Qur'an is filled with contradictions. The Qur'an also says that Jesus is the Messiah, that Jesus is with God right now. Jesus is sinless.

Jesus coming back to judge the world. And, like, Jesus is the Word of God. When you see all the things the Qur'an says about Jesus, you ask yourself, how can he be not more than a prophet? And I don't give the honor to the Qur'an to prove Jesus' deity, but I put all the great things about Jesus side by side with the passage that says that he is not more than a prophet, then showing to the contradiction and the problem is that how can this make sense by Muslim friends?

And let's bring them to the Bible to show them why Jesus is the Word of God, why Jesus is without sin, why Jesus coming back to judge the world, because he is more than just a prophet. Right. I don't know if you've got any feedback back there.

If you can turn anything down in the background, that'd be great because we're hearing something. But I wanted to ask you, is it not true that Muhammad had people killed and took other men's wives and stuff like that, right? Violence is in the Qur'an, is in the Hadith.

In the Qur'an, limited to 164 clear verses about violence in Islam, in the Qur'an. But Muslims, they don't just believe in the Qur'an, they believe in the Hadith, the Hadith, the things that Muhammad said. And Muslims take that Hadith as very serious.

Why? Because the Qur'an says that Muhammad is an example to all mankind. Therefore, they have to see what Muhammad did and they want to do the exact things that Muhammad did. Whatever Muhammad did, they have to do, they are required to do. And when you go to the Hadith, over 20,000 times the mention of violence, the cutting of arms and hands and fingers, killing people, rape, all that stuff is permitted in the Hadith very clearly.

That does not mean the Qur'an doesn't say it, the Qur'an does say it. Over 164 verses, as I said, mentioning of violence in the Hadith, in the Qur'an. Muhammad is definitely a very violent man.

There are all kinds of actions being done by him. So then, the Taliban, they're pretty violent. Would you say they are really following what Muhammad actually taught? Or are they extremists, as the news says? No, actually, the Salafi movement started because they want to bring back Islam to the principles, Islam to the real Islam, the violent Islam. I always say this, praise God, the majority of Muslims are very bad Muslims. That's true. We've got a break coming up.

Beautiful. I'm glad for that, that's for sure. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages with Eddie Delcor and George Saig talking about Islam.

If you have a question about it, about Islam, give us a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you're interested in talking to us, you can maybe call in Keith and get your question, and then we can just ask the guys online. I'm with George Saig and Eddie Delcor. I've got a question for Eddie next.

We're talking about the Strong Tower Conference, an apologetics conference in Southern California, and that will be September 9th through 11th. We'll talk about that again in a little bit. Hey, Eddie, I've got a question for you. Eddie, are you there? Eddie? Eddie, let's see.

Yes, I'm here. Okay. You mentioned something. You said something that really kind of got my interest there. You kind of said the same old argument.

When you said that, I started realizing it is. I've never heard a Muslim come up with anything new. It's always the same old stuff, and they don't seem to study. They don't seem to learn.

Is that what you found? Same thing? Yeah, most Unitarians, and I say Unitarians for our audience's sake, these are groups who believe God exists as one person, whether you're a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, a non-believing Jew, a Christadelphian, even a professing Christian, sometimes non-conversed that are sitting in pews. They've never been adequately taught. Which, of course, not understanding the Trinity is different than rejecting it.

I think that's a fair thing to say. There's many Christians that don't know how to define it, but they don't reject it. I found that most reject it on the basis of their lack of understanding. Of course, but they're unregenerated, so they're not going to accept it unless they were saved. I don't like to use the word most, but many Muslims and other Unitarians will argue against the Trinity based on their misunderstanding of it, based on their idea that the Trinity means three gods, or it's not logical, or something like that, only because they haven't actually studied it.

Look, we're talking basic stuff here. That's why, when I do dialogue on this issue of the nature of God, I always ask first, what is your understanding of the Trinity? Hands down, you get the bizarre understanding of what the Trinity actually is. So yeah, I think they're unlearned, unread in Christian doctrine, yet they love to reject it upon a basis of a misunderstanding.

Yeah, you're dead on. I just had a debate recently online, and it was a debacle. The guy couldn't argue his way to have a wet paper bag, and then claimed victory. It's just ridiculous. But I'm going to put up something on CARM, where if they want to debate me, they have to fill it out. It's a form, they have to fill it.

We'll have it up in a week or so. And they have to define their terms and understand what it is they want to debate. I totally agree with you. I've met so many Muslims online, and they don't even know what the Trinity is. And one is Pentecostal, the same thing. Oh yeah. In fact, I met the number one guy, David Bernard, last month, and challenged him politely to a debate he's not yet accepted. But that's another thing.

So, yeah, I'm just glad to hear you say that. It's the same old arguments. They don't seem to want to learn, and I'll tell them.

I say, why is it you guys don't learn what we teach? My file on Islam, on Word, is 60 pages, 60 pages, of notes just I've collected about Islam. If a Muslim says, hey, Matt, that's not what we teach, I'm going to say, okay, please then tell me what it is and where it's found. I want to represent them accurately. But I don't find that's the case with Muslims, except maybe Shabir Ali.

I'm going to say that Shabir Ali was pretty nice and respectful and seemed to understand some stuff, except not as well as I'd hoped he would have. I think you do find some that will have at least a basic, coherent understanding of the Trinity. They still don't accept it. And, of course, another common objection is that no one in the early church held to the doctrine of the Trinity. Now, as we agree, patristics are not a valid hermeneutics to interpret the Bible, but if you look at early Fathers, talking about God the Son, God the Father, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, the Trinity is to be meant by Clement of Alexandria writing about, gosh, 190, he used those terms. But you do find pre-Nicaean Fathers speaking of the concept of the Trinity. No, they didn't use 21st century language, but they spoke of the concept.

I'll make one more point. Ignatius, which was one of the earliest church Fathers, in his writings, he may have been a disciple of the Apostle John, several times in his genuine letters, the genuine letters, he mentions this phrase, he refers to Jesus with this phrase, ha-sa-as, the God, our God, Jesus Christ, several times, but he does it in light of a distinction from God the Father. And there's nowhere in the Greek, nowhere in the Greek of his genuine letters, where he teaches that Jesus as God is the Father. Nowhere does he have any kind of construction in the Greek text of that. So that's another argument you hear, that you don't find it in early church history.

Right. I find one of the things that they fail miserably on is understanding the doctrine of the hypostatic union, and along with the communication of the properties of the communicatae, two critical doctrines understand the work of Christ and who he is, and they just repeatedly just fail to study it. If I'm going to debate a Muslim, I'm going to study their topic, I'm going to study what they see, I'm going to research what they teach, but I don't find the same thing in reverse, generally speaking. It's interesting, because unfortunately Christians don't either, many times.

Of course not. But Muslims also confuse the humanity and the deity, just as you said, and Christians understand too, the flesh of Jesus Christ is not a part, it's not an involvement, it's not an additional person to the Trinity. The Trinity teaches three divine persons, not three persons with an added creaturely attribute, flesh. So it's flesh that's not included in the doctrine of the Trinity. And what Muslims do, they will argue, you know, he died, he can't be God, or he doesn't know when he's coming back, he can't be God.

You know, all these humanity passages. Right. Because they don't know the hypostatic union nor the Trinity.

No, they don't. Yeah, I've had to teach many Muslims, this is what we actually believe. But that's what it is, that's what it is. So I get a question, or someone has a question, someone called in and had a question. Maybe we can do this with George, because he knows. I know you do too, but how can Adam be considered a prophet in Islam? That's what the question is from Rudolph.

George, what would you say? How do you consider him a prophet? A prophet, I guess, to his family. But according to Islam, there are around 125,000 prophets. And they don't even have the names for all those prophets. They have a list of 25 biblical prophets. But also they believe that Alexander the Great is a prophet. It's very crazy when it comes to prophethood, they don't even know who all the prophets are.

Right, they don't. Hey George, I know there's a lot of noise in the background there, but in the meantime, could you introduce... I don't have any background on that. No?

I don't know what's that. Yeah, I have no idea where this background is coming from. Wow, he just quit. Maybe Laura did something. Did you do something, Laura?

No, she's inducing. Okay, I don't get it, but hey, that's okay. All right, you've got a conference coming up. Could you tell us more about this conference again for the new listeners? Our Strong Power Conference is the 21st annual conference that we have for ministry to Muslims. And our desire is to reach out to the church, to equip the church, to get them ready to reach out to the Muslims wherever they are. And there are Muslims all across this country. And, for example, just last week I was in a mosque in Southern mosque, and I took a few pastors to me. And guess what the name of the imam? The imam, his name is Imam John.

He's an American converted to Islam. We asked him, what kind of Christian were you? And he said, I was Catholic. Then I have a safe, born-again experience. I get saved in a Baptist church. And then he had a hard time understanding the Trinity, he decided to convert to Islam. There are many young people in our churches today, they have a hard time understanding the Trinity.

There are many Christians today, they don't know really why they believe what they believe. And our desire is to equip the saints to be ready to reach out to the Muslims, and also to know their faith, to know what they believe, and how we can defend what we believe. And that's why we work with people like you, Matt, and others like David Wood, and Anthony, and Eddie, and Samuel Green from Australia. Many people are going to be part of this, Dr. Tony Costa. We would love to be there with you, to equip you, to get you ready, but also we would love to partner with you to provide gospel material. Wherever you are, we ship it to you to reach out to the Muslims in your neighborhood. And you also have an opportunity after the conference, we have seven days of outreaches every single day.

If you are local in Southern California, if you are not, there are many people flying to come to this conference from other states, even from Canada. And we would love to have you, and please get in touch. Well, I've got a question for you for after the break, because people are going to want to know this.

Is witnessing to Muslims dangerous? Let's get back to that after the break. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages with George and Eddie.

Please stay tuned. Are you guys still there? Yes. All right, good.

Yes, I'm still here. Good. I'm going to ask a question to Eddie here about the Trinity a little bit, but George, if you would, can you tell us about is witnessing to Muslims really that dangerous? Going out to Southern California and other places here in America, is it okay to do that? We do have the legal rights in this country. We have the freedom to do so, at least for now. But yes, it is dangerous, but Jesus did not call us for safety. He told us to carry the cross and follow him. And he told us in the world we're going to have persecution, but we have to trust that he'll overcome the world.

But praise God. I've been working with Muslims in Sudan before I came to America and for the last 25 years in this country. I'm being attacked only a couple times, two times in 2004, a long time ago. Majority of Muslims are very loving and kind people. And as I said earlier, praise God, the majority of Muslims are bad Muslims.

They don't follow their books. If they follow the Quran, they are not supposed even to take us as friends. But praise God, I have a lot of Muslim friends. I was born among them, I lived among them, and I really know that the majority of them are very kind and loving people. Our problem is not with the people, our problem is the teaching of Islam. Right. Yeah, I've found most Muslims to be polite, good people, you know, on the human level. That's what I've found, except when you come into contact with the ones who are in debate, then they don't know what they're talking about, generally speaking. Could you plug your conference again? Go ahead.

Yes. Matt, I want to tell you, the very genuine Muslims, even let's say Osama bin Laden, he is really sensitive to do what his book tells him to do. He thinks, the Quran claims to be revealed by the same God of the Bible. As a result, the fanatic Muslims, they're really willing to die because they really think God, the greatest of the universe, asked them to do so. I want to tell you, Muslims, fanatic Muslims, are very genuine Muslims.

They really wanted to do the right thing. We need to overcome fear, because the more good Muslims, the more closer to the Quran, the closer to Islam, the ones genuinely really think that they are following the true way. And if they found the true way, if they recognize who Christ is and what He's done for them, they make the best Christians ever. Our God is the same God yesterday and today and forever. He is the same one that he encountered Paul and changed him, and he is able to change even the fanatic Muslims today. Amen? Amen. Isn't it true, though, that a lot of Muslims are having visions and dreams of Jesus in the Middle East? Oh, over 70% of Muslims coming to Christ through dreams and visions.

Jesus doesn't need us at all. He can do it all. But what an honor He's willing to use us to reach out to these people.

What an honor. Let's reach out to them as God brought them from all across the world to us here. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Students, university and colleges, is packed with Muslim students from Saudi Arabia, where there's no Christian can go. And even if you succeeded to go, you have to sign a paper. You cannot bring your own Bible to that country. But we have 100,000 Saudi Arabian students in our campuses.

What an opportunity. A city in North Carolina. 8,000 Sudanese Muslims in that city.

I go and visit that city every while and I go to this area next to Starbucks and I find hundreds of Sudanese Muslims. So we spend hours talking. They love to talk about God. I tell them straight, I am a Christian, I would like to talk about God.

Would you like to talk about God? And they just sit down, they bring you food, and they just want to talk to you. That's one of the things I love about Muslims. They love to talk about God. And sadly, they always tell me, why you Christians are not willing to stand for what you believe. We tell Muslim Christians objections, they tell us, oh Jesus loves you, and they walk away. The Bible is clear that we are to give an answer about the hope we have. I think that's the biggest fear that the Church has.

Not the fear of violence, but mostly the fear of not knowing how to respond to Muslim arguments. And that's why we're having this conference, Our Strong Tower, the 21st annual event for Ministry to Muslims. It's going to be in Southern California in two different locations. All the details at the website, ministrytomuslims.com. And if you get your tickets today, please use Slick for a promo code, and you will get 70% off immediately.

We'd love to have you guys. It's going to be a really awesome event, and you're going to get a chance to speak to Dr. Eddie Delcore, Reverend Anthony Rogers. You're going to get a chance to watch two debates live right there between Anthony Rogers and Shadid Lewis.

He's a convert to Islam, I think, over 20 years ago, and he converted Shadid. He debated Matt before at least three debates. It will be a really great opportunity to see these debates. You can also join us live if you want to show it in your church, wherever you are.

We can provide you the signal to be able to have it live in your church as well. Also, Dr. Tony Costa, Dr. Jay Smith. Dr. Jay Smith's going to be in Brazil, but he's going to join us live. But Samuel Green, flying all the way from Australia, he's one of the top people when it comes to the Qur'an and the readings of the Qur'an. He's the first to speak about the variance between the different Arabic Qur'ans, and he would be with us for ten days.

Three days for the conference, but he's also going to participate in outreaches at different places that we're going to, including San Diego. We're going to be reaching to 200 refugees who are going to come and meet us from Afghanistan. We're going to have amazing opportunities, and you're going to be able to put what you learn in practice immediately.

It's awesome. I love the fact that you're watching Matt and you're learning so many things, but let's put it in action. Let's reach out to the Muslims that God brings your way. Amen? Amen. A lot of people, a lot of Christians just don't realize that when you trust God and you go out there and witness, even if you've just learned a few things, you'd be surprised what God will do with you. He fills your heart and your mind and your mouth with words, and you come back and you go, I didn't even know I knew that. It happens.

It does, but you've got to get out there and give it a try. So it's a Strong Tower Conference. You can go to Ministry to Muslims, that's T-O, Ministry to Muslims dot com, and all the information is right there. I've been looking at the site, and well done, and a lot of good speakers there. It's going to be great. It really is. So good for you.

All right. Now, I want to ask Eddie a question here. We've only got about five minutes left on the show, and George said something, and then you said something about the Trinity. I've been teaching on the Trinity now extensively. I have a 500-word paragraph just on the Trinity that I've been teaching on. So how frequently, Eddie, how frequently does the Trinity come up, part A and part B? Are Christians really that ignorant of that doctrine and other doctrines?

Go ahead. I know we'll be dealing with this on our, I think, the show that we're doing, the seventh, if we ever solidify a date for our apologetics in the Church show. But that's an excellent question, and look, when I speak on the Trinity or on the deity of Christ, or even on justification through faith alone, I seriously ask the audience, in the last ten years, who here has ever heard a message on the Trinity at any church?

I promise, this is not exaggeration, I don't get any hands. I can ask the same question about the deity of Christ, the true deity of Christ. I can ask the same question about justification through faith alone. But if I ask about end times or prophetic speculations or something else, I'll get a zillion hands.

What is wrong with that picture? I blame, directly, I blame pastors for not being teaching pastors. They're more consumer-friendly, not all of them, we have a lot of great pastors out there. But too many of them are not, I think because they themselves do not do much studying on the doctrine of Trinity, so they're, you know, they're kind of resistant, they relegate the Trinity, this is the worst thing, they relegate the Trinity either to an egg or to a mystery.

Both are horrible. An egg, don't use analogies, I always make, you know, rule number one, don't use analogies. Because they all, they're either oneness or they're either Mormon, don't use analogies. And number two, you know, number two, pastors have an obligation to learn, the very marrow, right, of redemption is that God the Father sent God the Son to become, to add a new nature for us, for redemption, and God the Spirit is sent by the Father and Son to regenerate. You don't have redemption without the doctrine of Trinity, but yet it's the most important doctrine, but yet it's the most neglected doctrine. When we talk about the gospel, how is it that Jesus did his crosswork without God the Father sending him, without God the Father adopting us, without God the Father justifying us, the Father is the one that justifies, the Father is the one that elects, the Father is the one that adopts. And the Son, God the Son is the one who dies on the cross, who lives a perfect life. You don't have any of that without the doctrine of Trinity. If you say Jesus is God, what do you mean by that? Is he one God of many?

Is he himself the Father? How do you explain he's God? Because look, Jesus said in John 8 24, unless you believe that I'm eternal God, you'll die on your sins. So it's a requirement for Christians, and unfortunately Matt, too many Christians, just like justification through faith alone, have not been adequately exposed to the doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ, nor justification by faith alone, and here's the result. When they try to explain the Trinity, because the cult and the atheistic religions like Islam, they know how to refute it. They know how to come against it. But Christians are just standing there, walking in a dense fog, because they haven't been taught, and I've seen this.

George, I saw this in San Diego. They define the Trinity in oneness terms, as functionally oneness. They define justification functionally as a Roman Catholic. That's a problem.

And first and foremost, I blame the pastors for not being adequately equipped to teach these fundamental doctrines of the essential truth. That's what I think. Man, man, oh man, if I was there, man, high five to you. I say the same stuff. I say the same stuff. I do. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. We've got to know the Trinity.

We've got to know who Jesus is. Justification, imputation, oh man. Man, I'm just nodding and smiling while you're going. I would have just kept quiet the whole time. Good for you, brother. What we do do when we do... If I could... We only have like 30 seconds. And just because you believe in the Trinity does not mean true salvation, because you can believe in the Trinity like a Roman Catholic and deny justification to the faith alone.

Yes, you can. That's not the Christ of Scripture. That's not the God of Scripture. Oh, brother. We're going to have a good time talking on our conference that we're going to be doing. Sorry, I've had internet problems.

It looks like they're finally solved, so it's taken a while. Oh, cool. Okay, so George, look, we only have probably 30 seconds. Oh, no, we've got 10 seconds. I'm going to just say this really fast. We've got 10 seconds left in the show. Everybody, George Sig, Eddie Delcore, just had them on.

I want you to check out MinistryToMuslims.com. I'll be mentioning it for the next few days anyway. And, George, thank you, buddy, for coming on. And, Eddie, thanks for coming on. Okay, well, God bless. Hey, we're just out of time. We've got to go. So, hey, God bless, brothers. We'll see you. All right, everybody, by God's grace, we're back on there tomorrow. We'll talk to you then.