The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live. Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.
Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome to the show. All right, now, if you've been listening this past week, you'll know that the show got cut off twice. My internet went down two times, two times out of four.
We'll see how it's going to go today. I spent an hour, hour and a half or so on the phone with the internet company saying, look, here's the situation, I can't have this happen. And they said, well, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I happened to be a computer tech for five years. And I said, well, here's the issues, bang, bang, bang. And I said, I've done this, I've done that. I said, and if you want me to reboot, you should go to DHCP, right?
But I'm not a scientist addict. So what do you think the problem is if it's not on your end? So they're going to send me a new modem.
And hopefully it'll get here, well, put it here tomorrow. And hopefully it'll work. Some people have said that the same problem occurred with the same company.
When they got a new modem, everything worked fine. Hopefully that'll be it. And then we talked to the producer, Keith.
So if it bails, hey, it's just what it is. But if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. And we can blab. You can talk to me about, let's see, whatever you want to talk about.
Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity by Islam. Oh, there's so much stuff. There's so much stuff to talk about.
And we were talking about yesterday, the rapture. And we talked about justification and things like that, which I enjoyed. And sometimes on Fridays, what I will do is hate mail. And some people, they said they really liked the hate mail. So what I'm going to do, just because I like hate mail, and hopefully some callers will come on in.
If they don't, I'll talk eschatology. So, boy, there's so much to talk about. Yeah, good stuff. Look at that.
All right, I got so much. There's so many things we could talk about. Some of it's conspiratorial. I love conspiracy stuff. I do. I love conspiracy stuff. And so I'll get emails about that kind of thing too. All right, let's see.
I'm going to get to the love and hate mail and do some love and hate mail. And for those of you who may not know, because of the ministry that I run, I've been swatted. I've been threatened with death. Satanists have tried to kill me and my family.
I've been followed in cars, bumps in the night around the house. Various things have happened over the years. And so one of them is just simply hate mail. Now, for some deluded reason on my part, I enjoy hate mail.
I'm one of the few guys who really enjoys it when it's directed at yourself. You know, I like it. Let's say he's threatening us with eschatology if we don't call. But I've called twice last week.
Yeah, you can call Katie. Okay, I'll just jump on and read a couple of hate mails. Just see if there's any good, okay? I haven't prepped it because I was behind schedule here today. We had a couple of things happen.
Yeah, that's right. Weird stuff with the internet. And also, right when, get this, right when I talk to the producer, because every day I talk to the producer, we do a sound check. I go, hey, how's it going? Going fine. Hey, how's it going?
Blah, blah, blah. Sound good? Yes, okay, good. I'm getting ready. It takes about 30 seconds or so.
We just kind of sometimes talk, but that's it. And while we're doing our sound check, my phone starts playing music out of nowhere. It's just been sitting there, and it started playing. It was so confusing. It's like, where's it coming from? And I had my headset on. I couldn't tell the direction. I thought it was coming from the internet.
I'm like, what? And it turned out my phone, for, I have no clue why, just started playing music on its own, right when I was talking to Keith about the soundtrack check for the show. And what's weird is, the internet has gone out during the show, not until the show. All day's been fine. And then during the show, it's gone out a couple of times.
I think it was on Tuesday and Thursday. Interesting? Yeah, it is. All right, having said all of that conspiracy stuff, kind of pretty creepy, as Vicki says.
Yeah, it is. I don't know. So let's jump into some hate mail. Let's see what he said.
Let's see. I'm going to just check this one out. He goes, since I'm an atheist, I find that nearly everything you say about hell or women's roles or homosexuality and such infuriating.
I think I read this one before. I'll go through it. Tag, a transcendental argument for God's existence, makes me want to blow my brains out. Seriously, do you think the average person is even capable of understanding it? Well, yes, I teach it.
And I explain it in such a way that the average person can understand it. Not a big deal. And he says, do you think anyone's been converted due to it? I don't know. I don't read people's hearts and minds. So when people say, like an atheist will say, that my view of hell, women's roles, or homosexuality is infuriating, I love to talk to them.
I want to say, OK, why is it infuriating? Because what they're going to do is they're going to say, well, what they have in common is they have a standard of truth, and I just love it. Well, what's your standard of truth?
Where does it come from? So you may not like it, and you're entitled to your opinion, but come on. Can you give me a perspective in your worldview, whatever your worldview is, by which you can then instantiate all facts, all moral truths? Can you justify how they have their place in a universal sense so that you can say what I do is right or wrong? Can you do that for your perspective? And then what you listen closely at that point, what you hear is crickets. And they're not used to Christians going on the attack asking them very difficult questions.
It's a very difficult question. And a lot of times the atheists, they want to throw stones from the safety of their I don't believe in anything worldview. But suddenly comes someone along, and I'm not the only one who can do this, comes someone that says, wait a minute, justify your position. Let's say you do it.
If an atheist wants to call me right now and justify, for example, any ultimate standard by which they can substantiate or instantiate universals, universal truths, universal morals by which they can make judgments, I want you to call me. I would love to hear that. It'd be great. But what we're going to hear, folks, is crickets. Here's another hate mail. I've read through the cults section on your web page. You are a judgmental bunch of folks, aren't you? I guess so.
What I read isn't fruit testing, as some like to call it. You have pushed Jesus aside and taken that place of authority for your own. Wow. Well, that's interesting. And then he quotes scripture. He's given all the judgment of the Son.
Well, that's true. He has, but this person doesn't say anything that makes any sense. You know, Jesus is the one who said, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but by me, John 14, 6. He also said that unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. So I tell people, hey, the only way to God the Father is through Jesus. And if you don't believe that he is the great I am, you're going to die in your sins.
Oh, you're judgmental. I'm just repeating what he said. And you know, they don't like that. Sometimes what I'll do when I'm talking to people is I will just quote a verse. But they don't know I'm quoting it.
And I'll just whip it right into the conversation. You know, and I'll say, you know, I just, you know, my opinion, you know, if you don't believe that Jesus is the I am, you know, you're going to die in your sins. No, that's not true. You're being judgmental.
Really? Well, then quote the verse. Unless you believe that I am, you're going to die in your sins. Oops. So you understood what it meant and you denied it.
And then they say, you tricked me. Yes, I did. You're evil.
Man, I can't win, can I? Here's another one. I noticed that you claimed Jehovah's Witnesses deny Christ. Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh.
That's what it says. And he says, Well, I've studied over 20 years of all religions. And this and this is the one claim that is false. They always end prayers in Christ Jesus name.
Several book of several book are about Jesus that he died as propitiatory sacrifice. If you truly believe what you're teaching, you have no reason to belittle the faith of yours of others. Your light should shine without draping a website with such stuff. They don't understand. People just react. You know, and what's interesting about this, this email is, as I open it up, it has green and white lines, dark green and white lines with black text over. It makes it very difficult to, to read. I bet you. What if you did that? I'm going to keep a background and make them struggle to read this.
That could be the case. All right, let's do this one too. Oh, uh, okay. The world is quickly discovering that the second coming of Christ is already here on earth. Oh, this is good.
But also that in 132 days or less from today's date, February 19th. Now this is a few years ago, so it's past the man Christ Jesus. Well, Oh my goodness.
No stinking way. This is the infamous. This is it for those of you.
Oh man, it's going to be good for those of you who've been listening for a few years. This is going to ring a couple of bells. Okay. Listen to this.
This, this thing, this, this email is an old email and I went to this one area of emails and our old ones and because they're just as good as the new ones. Okay. Okay, here we go. All right, so this was from, uh, this is from 10 years ago. All right.
And, uh, the world is quickly discovering that the second coming of Christ is already here on earth, but also that in the 132 days or less from today's date, February 19th, the man Christ Jesus Luis Jose Luis de Jesus will transform his mortal man. This is awesome. Oh crud. Okay. Hold on. Okay. I got to back up. This is good stuff. Okay.
Ready? Will transform his mortal Puerto Rican body. It's a Puerto Rican body into one of immortality, radioactivity, and flames.
Man, that's awesome. I mean, wow. It's a Puerto Rican body that's, uh, it's going to be dressed so stupid. Puerto Rican. Why did I say Brazilian? You know, Brazilian body. No, it's Puerto Rican body.
Oh man, that's awesome. Okay. We'll transform his mortal Puerto Rican, so stupid. Sorry. Puerto Rican body into one of immortality, radioactivity, and flames. That's going to be, I think I'm getting comfortable for him because radioactivity and flames together. Wow.
For the Puerto Rican body. Oh man. Oh, I would love to be in a room with this guy. Does he tell me more? Tell me I want to, I want to know more. Tell me more.
Okay. So he goes on, uh, just, just like he experienced, oh man, oh wow. Just like he experienced when he dwelled in the body of Jesus of Nazareth. So that means that Jesus had a radioactive flame body?
Wow. How come none of the writers of the gospels mentioned this? You know what? This, in 2nd Maraudicles, hey, guess what? Jesus has a radioactive flame body.
He's glowing in fun fire, walking around, man. Don't get close. Okay. Okay. Sorry about that. Oh man.
Okay. This time, however, he won't just resurrect. He will redress into a body of immortality to reign here on earth and restore world order, justice, and peace.
Justice and peace. So the Puerto Rican body will be changed into immortality, radioactive flames, and he will redress into a body of immortality to reign on earth and restore world order, justice, and peace. Well, it didn't happen. I don't know. You know, it didn't happen.
Maybe, just maybe, when he transformed into an immortal radioactive flame body, there's someone who got a bucket of water, and I could just see Jose Luis de Jesus going, I didn't think of that. What do I do now? The flames are out. Oh man. And there's more to the email. I'll finish that one after the break, and then we'll get to the collars.
I love this stuff. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.
That's right, fall out from Puerto Rico. Say, Sean, this is awesome. Hey folks, we'll be right back. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.
Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Now, man, do I love that email. Now, I said I was going to read a little bit more of it. I'm going to read a little bit more.
It's not as entertaining. It's just kind of complimentary to what he said, and I'll read that. Then we'll get to the collars, because we have two open lines.
If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. So, if you remember, he's supposed to, the Puerto Rican, just can't get over it, is more to Puerto Rican body will be transformed into immortality, radioactivity, and flames. Man, I wonder how he'd be at a barbecue, you know? Hey, here he comes. Just get your hot dogs and marshmallows out.
Just hold them there. He goes on, he says, the planet is currently experiencing birth pains in preparation for this most awaited event. Birth pains of frequent earthquakes, extreme weather, and chaos unlike anything seen before, as the signs are clear that the great day is near. News teams all around the world have begun to investigate and announce the countdown. Now, I don't remember any news teams saying any countdown.
I mean, if anything, I could see CNN, you know, and the leftist groups going, yeah, hey, watch out, folks. We're in a Puerto Rican body that's going to be trained in immortality, radioactivity, and flames. When I say, I don't believe that. Oh, you're racist. You don't like the Puerto Rican part? I mean, just, you know, oh, you're obviously a racist. You white supremacist.
I'm just like, what? So, anyway, so he goes on. He says, as God will soon reign with an iron rod and show his wrath to anyone who dared to doubt, mock, or reject a living God. Oh, no, I guess I'm in trouble because I've been having a lot of fun with this email. And then he signs off. He goes, later, don't say you weren't told. Okay, so I was told.
Now, in this email is a whole bunch of links to videos on YouTube and some other places. And so what I did, I went and clicked like 10 of them and they're all dead heads. So I wonder what happened because you imagine all the people I could, they're gathered in the church on that day, 132nd day. They're there in the church. They got asbestos suits on. They're sitting there. And the Puerto Rican body man, atomic body man, he's going to sit and I could just see they're all going, hey, nothing happened.
So, yeah, it's, uh, believing in grace is the Spanish domain that it comes from. I got to check it out. Um, okay, I needed that, especially after this week, this week's internet debacles. I like talking like that. You know, use my voice like internet debacle and it's a lot of fun.
All right. Hey, let's see if we can get a little serious. Let's get on the air with Ryan from Pennsylvania. Hey, Ryan, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, thank you very much.
Um, I thank you again for inviting me to call at any time. Um, I have a question about a biblical question about Exodus chapter 21 and two particular verses, uh, verse 12. It reads, he that smiteeth a man so that he die shall surely be put to death. And then in verse 22, if men strive or fight and hurt a woman with child who is a pregnant woman, so that her fruit depart from her, which means she has a miscarriage and yet no Mr. Follow, he shall be surely punished. According to the woman's husband will lay upon him and he shall pay as the judge is determined.
My question is why is there a scriptural distinction between killing someone before birth and after birth? I don't know. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Well, I could offer theories, but I don't know. I don't know why.
Okay. Maybe if the two struggling, they shouldn't be, they shouldn't be struggling. And if one kills another, it's out of anger and or vengeance in a fight. But maybe since if they inadvertently, uh, uh, it's not intentional and they injure a woman who's a, uh, a nearby person and she miscarries, then there's a penalty. But since it was not intentional, maybe there's a difference in that. But I don't know if exactly that would, if well accidentally causing the death of another person is grounds for manslaughter.
Right. Um, not that I'm not that I believe it is, I think. And, and, uh, that is the legal definition of manslaughter. Uh, well, I mean, in the Bible we're talking about, uh, I don't know if the Bible talks about if there's an accidental one, uh, because just remember that there's a, the issue of the, of the cities of refuge.
And if, oh man, it's been a while since I've gone through this. If there's someone who's accidentally caused the death of somebody else through a neglect or whatever it is, a building a house and it falls, um, he can flee to a city of refuge. And as long as the high priest is alive in that city, the relatives cannot come to get him and, and, uh, blood revenge and kill him. But if you were to step outside that, uh, city of refuge, then he's fair game and they can get him. And, uh, so when the high priest dies in that city, then he could leave the city and nobody could get him.
And it's really interesting. Uh, and, uh, you know, the, why that's interesting high priest represents Christ, death of Christ, you're then free. But, uh, uh, so I just trying to remember if the issue of capital punishment is due to accidental death. I don't believe it is in scripture, but if you can show me a scripture that says it and I'll go, okay. I don't think it is. Well, clearly there's a distinction between killing someone after they're born and before they're born. Is it good that could not be argued that, uh, uh, before birth, a, um, uh, a fetus is not a person and after birth they are. And that's the reason why there is distinction. Yeah, of course not.
Why not? Are you saying that location or the process of birth? No, I'm saying there's a scriptural, I'm saying that, uh, there's a scriptural distinction between killing someone before birth and after birth. And one of the possible reasons for, uh, for saying that there's a difference is that after birth, you're a person before your birth, you're not. Well, what it does say, if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury.
He shall surely be fined as the woman's husband made demand of him and he shall pay as the judge decides. So there was, there was no, clearly the miscarried fetus is going to die clearly. It says, well, didn't say that.
Well, unless you think they have neonatal intensive care, uh, 3000 years ago, clearly, um, uh, miscarried fetus, more than 90% of the time is going to die. Well, uh, uh, perhaps, uh, but I'm just saying the text doesn't say it. That's all. But the next verse might help.
Well, no, it's reasonably good, but it's not necessary. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life. So the next verse implies that the premature birth, the baby did not die because it's, because it seems to contrast says, but then if there's any further injury, then penalty is life for life.
So I'd love to read on that and check it out. Yeah. Well, you say I've, I've, um, I heard this as an argument, um, for, um, uh, before birth, the fetus is not a person that after birth, they are a person. That's the reason for, um, their, um, um, the difference in punishment. And, uh, when you take a look at, um, when Adam took his first breath, he became a living soul and, uh, a variety of other things that, um, uh, seem to determine that, uh, uh, one becomes a person at life birth. No, it doesn't work that way. That's, that's just not biblical at all.
Does it work that way? Well, hold on. We're going to break. We'll talk folks. We'll be right back after these messages.
One open line, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.
Here's Matt Slick. All right. I want to welcome back to the show. Ryan, are you still there? Yes, I am.
Thank you for letting me hang out. Sure. So you were saying, okay, I'm trying to just make sure I get it just clear. Are you saying that a baby becomes a person upon birth? Um, yeah, according to Genesis 2, seven in the Lord, form of the man from the dust of the ground to breathe into his nostrils and the breath of life and cause man to become a living being. And in some of those that, uh, they call that installment and it says a living and a living person is the way some of the things that have, some of the, uh, scriptures have, uh, have said that. So the distinction, uh, in Exodus 21 between killing someone before birth and after birth is personhood. Okay.
Well, hold on. So I asked you, are you saying that a, are you saying that a, or do you believe that a baby is not a person until after it's born? Uh, I'm saying that, um, according to scriptures and, uh, according to Genesis, I mean, Exodus 21, we can, uh, say that the difference between, uh, someone before birth and after birth is personhood and the person who begins at birth and we can justify that with scripture.
I've asked you a very specific question. Do you believe, and now you can say the Bible teaches, but it doesn't mean you necessarily affirm. That's what it teaches or you're interpreting it that way. So that's why I'm being more specific because I don't agree with your interpretation there, but do you affirm personally that a baby becomes a person only after birth? Uh, that is my position. Yes. Okay. So is a person, what are, what are, okay, so personhood then, so it's a non-person say, uh, you know, I've seen my wife give birth four times. So the birth actual crowning and the whole bit, you know, I think I'd say 10, 15 minutes, um, maybe a little bit less, but, uh, so, uh, would you say then during, let's just say 10 minutes. Okay.
Took 10 minutes. So you're saying, uh, it's the baby born now it's a person, but 10 minutes earlier, it was not right. Um, I'm saying that personhood begins with live birth.
Okay. And we can justify that with scripture. Can, can, no, no, you can't. But, uh, personhood, can you define what personhood is? Live birth. No, no person, live birth is different than personhood because live birth can be of, of, of fish that are ovoviviparous and they give birth to live. Well, live birth of a human, live birth of a human. So gambesinos are ovoviviparous. So, oh, you mean as a human.
Okay. So you saying only in human birth is personhood, uh, what's the right word created at birth, uh, manifested, suddenly formed, endowed, so to be endowed means that someone else is doing the actions. Are you saying that God then and only at birth, uh, endows a person with personhood, a baby with personhood?
Well, that may not be the right person. I'm just saying that we can justify with scripture. No, no, no, you can't. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You keep saying this. I'm telling you, no, in Psalm 139, 13, you formed my inward parts. You wove me in my mother's womb. The person is saying me as an identification of who he is being in the womb, which is where God, uh, uh, worked. And that's attributing personhood to himself there. Psalm 71, six by you, I have been sustained from my birth. You are he who took me from my mother's womb. The me is personhood from the womb.
My praise is continually of you. So you can't make that case that you don't have personhood from scripture. So I'm trying to work through the logic. So you're telling me now that somehow personhood is endowed or bestowed upon the person at birth. So a bestowing of an action means someone else performs the action. So who performs the action of making that a person? Uh, the person being born, uh, they, uh, become a person at live birth. So they, do they perform an action that makes them from non-person to person? Yeah, the action of being born.
But they don't do. Okay. So they go through the action of being born and then they're, they have personhood.
Okay. So what's personhood? What's, what's, what's personhood?
Uh, taking their first breath, uh, the, uh, the legal designation of personhood has been formed, um, even from the biblical tradition has been from live birth. Okay. So taking a breath makes you a person. Yeah. Their first breath, you become a living being just like Genesis 2, 7 says.
Okay. So if you hold your breath, do you stop being a person? No, because you're already born alive. So breathing is not what makes you a person then? Live birth is what makes you a person. Live birth makes you a person. So being traveling through the birth canal, that's, it makes you a person.
So you're a non-person and then a person. So their nature changes during the birth process, right? Um, uh, nature. I'm not sure if I would call it nature. I would say that their legal status is changed.
Well, who cares about legal status? The thing is, uh, the nature. Personhood is a legal term. Okay. Uh, so you're saying here then that the nature of the child, uh, changes during birth and changes from non-person to person. Yeah. Okay.
So I got a question for you then. So, you know, when it's, when the, this, this, this being, this, this, this live thing in the womb is say two, three, four months old, it's not a person, right? Not human, right?
You mean, um, when the woman's pregnant two or three months? Yeah. It's not human. Yeah, correct.
So is it okay to take that? Of course it's human. It's human, but it's not a person. It's alive, but it's not a person. How do you have a, how do you have a, how do you have a, how do you have a, how do you have a human who's not also a person just by definition? Because they haven't been born alive.
Yeah. They have not been born alive. Um, so do you have any universal principle by which you state that being born alive is what makes someone a person?
Uh, aside from the scriptures? Sure. Over a thousand years of European common law. Um, over 200 years of, um, American law and, um, over, um, 3,000 years of medical history. Yeah.
Okay. So we're not talking about argumentum ad populum just because the majority of done it over a period of time doesn't make it true. That's, that's useless information. It's useless statistics. And there are people who've argued against that and there are people who've been, who've, women who've been murdered and then two charges of death or murder have been brought against women, uh, because of the, the baby in the world.
As well as adults, this has happened too. So I'm just saying you can pick and choose what you want. We're talking about, but we're talking about the issue of personhood in your, what are the attributes of personhood? Give me some attributes of personhood.
Someone, uh, someone who's born alive. If I got born alive, born alive, what's some other attributes of personhood? Like I'm a person, you're a person. What are some of the attributes that we have as persons? That's the attribute we share. We were both born alive.
Okay. Uh, well, since I do a lot of discussions on the nature of personhood in the doctrine of the Trinity, personhood is that quality or aspect of the living being of a human. And it can also be existent in the nature of God.
And it can be in angelic forms as well as demonic. The idea of personhood has the qualities of self-awareness, awareness of others can speak, can think, right? These are attributes. They don't properly define all of personhood because a newborn baby can't, we, as far as we know, is not self-aware, doesn't speak. We don't know if it's thinking. So how does it have personhood then by your definition, by your logic? I think that you, I think that your, what you're describing is not personhood, but consciousness. And, um, obviously consciousness, uh, is something that, um, we, we have before we have language, before we have self-awareness and all these other things. I think you're confusing personhood and consciousness. Do you think babies in the womb an hour before can have consciousness? Yes. Okay. So then by that, they would have personhood. No, because consciousness and personhood are two different things.
I just said that. Okay. Let me, I got a question here for you. So would it be okay, the, we say it's human though.
I, I, that's what confused me. I was going to ask you if it's okay to take this life, this two month old life and transform it, transfer it into the womb of a dog. If it's not a person, is that okay? Um, I would not say it was okay. No.
Why not? Not a person. Well, because it is human and it is alive, uh, putting it into the body of a dog is, uh, putting it into an environment where it would have no possibility of surviving. Now you say now it's a human, but it doesn't have personhood. It doesn't have consciousness, but we know that babies do have consciousness before birth. Of course it has consciousness. Yes. Of course it has consciousness before birth.
Okay. But what it doesn't have is personhood. No, it doesn't have personhood. And are you able to define personhood? Yeah, I just did.
No, he didn't. We got to go. Is it break? Good time to break anyway. Yeah. Your, your logic is, is very bad.
Very, very bad. But Hey, we got to go. Thanks for calling Ryan.
Appreciate it. Whatever you want to talk about. Yeah. Call it back.
Yeah. Hey folks, there you go. Uh, two open lines, 877-207-2276.
Actually right back. It's Matt Slick live taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.
Everybody. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. Let's get to Mike from North Carolina. Mike, welcome. You're on the air.
Hey, Matt. Um, I'm calling about, you had a caller on Wednesday that was asking about the book of Ezekiel and, um, describing it as a future battle. But when I read Ezekiel, I read that as an ancient battle because it talks about bucklers and Spears and bows, arrows, and, uh, coming for, you know, and they're coming from, and I, I see that as being fulfilled in the book of Esther.
I mean, when you read the book that was used for living in unwalled cities, uh, Haman wanted them annihilated. And so that's what I've been telling people. And I just want to know if I've been wrong all these years. Well, I don't know. Um, I've always heard one thing. I've never really studied it, uh, because it's, there's too much conjecture in it for me. Uh, usually, you know, I, I, I'm working against cults and answering dog doctrine questions. Tell you, how about this? Why don't you write that up and send it to me at info at karma.org and say, here's what I think.
This is why. Here's the references. I'll go take a look at it and see if we were studying because I'm always open to learning and stuff like that.
And a lot of these prophecies, you know, they're right there. And, um, and, uh, we, yeah, then there's the issue of double fulfillment and things like that and preterism and it gets complicated, but, uh, but yeah, send it to me. Okay.
I'm curious. Okay. Okay.
Turn up. All right, man. Sounds good, buddy. Bye. Okay.
All right. Let's get to Kevin from Knoxville, Tennessee. Welcome, Kevin. You're on the air. Hey, thanks, Matt.
Uh, my question, um, I'm gonna just give a quick confirmation. I've been a part of a recovery group for seven years. It's a 12 step biblical program based off the beatitudes.
Um, different churches have these ministries and I just started a step study, which is like a in-depth Bible study on recovery and, uh, United, uh, Methodist church. And the pastor allowed a transgender person in my, uh, men's only group. And this isn't like my church home. It's just where I go for this particular ministry.
My question is, how would you recommend I best handle the situation? We're going to talk to the pastor and see what his reason is, see what's going on. What's the reason it could be a reason of compassion.
It could be that he wants to minister to this person, recognizing that this person's in great sin and confusion, and it can hopefully steer him, uh, uh, in a proper direction through such meetings. It could be that that's his motive. If that's the case, then, uh, I think what he should do is tell everybody else that that's the case. Let it be known, if it's not the case, we have to find out what's going on. What's the reason, why would you let someone in? And, uh, you just find out, that's what I would do.
I'd ask him, what's your, what's your reason? Let's see. Yeah, I was a little confused and they have a women's, uh, group that meets at the same time. So I was like, it would have made more sense.
It kind of feels like we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're not, you know, giving into their delusion in a way by allowing a woman who thinks she's a man, you know? So it just, it was weird. Yeah, I don't know. I just, I guess I'll ask.
Yeah. You never know because the pastor could have talked to this woman ahead of time and realized she's confused, put them in there and hear what the guys are really like. She may go, I don't want that. Who knows? But you just don't know. You got to ask the pastor. Okay.
Ask that pastor, find out what the motives are, what the reason is. And hopefully it'll be biblical and, and the like, and then, okay, work with it. But if he says, well, I don't know, I just thought it'd be good because I don't want to get sued. That's a problem. Okay. And then you got to use the right gender pronouns or you get in trouble.
Yeah, the left is so tolerant. Yeah. Okay. Find out what the reason is. But you do think that there are some good reasons to allow a transgender person into a group like that? I would say that if the person was confused and particularly wanted that pastor's teaching and was on the fence, maybe, and the pastor were to say, well, we'll let you in so that the person could be witnessed to by the pastor.
I think that would be a good motive, that kind of a thing. And, you know, for what's the reason, like we had a transgender person a couple of years ago came over and my daughter knew this person and said, you know, they just moved here. Can, can she kept saying, can, and it was just, she originally, can she come over for Christmas? I said, sure. She goes, well, there's one more thing. I said, well, what? She goes, she's going through transition.
I said, really? From what to what? Girl to boy.
Okay. I said, all right, bring her over. And so my wife and I talked and what we did, we confiscated one of the gifts that were kind of loose and we rewrapped it for her so that she would feel part of the group and part of what was going on. And she came over and we could tell she was quite unsure about herself and the situation. And so my wife and I treated her lovingly and patiently and kindly and made her feel at home and comfortable. And we didn't address this because it wasn't the time to address it.
And in fact, I never did address it. And we had many conversations, she and I, and at one point, uh, after a couple of months when she kept coming over every now and then, and she said she felt very comfortable and she was, she loved being over here. And, uh, I told her what I do for a living and took a few weeks before even got to that point. And she said, really?
And I said, yeah, let's talk about righteousness and what God wants with us, what he has made us for. And I left it wide open and she was very appreciative of my honesty. And I could tell she was appreciative of me not just jumping on her and condemning. And later, I'm not saying it's because of this, but later we found out she stopped the transition and back to where she's supposed to be. So, you know, it just, what's the motive? Would you say, Hey, why would you let someone like that come in your house? Well, the reason my wife and I did it was to show Christian love. That was the reason. So, but sometimes when we try and live in a Christian way, sometimes we can make judgment calls that are not exactly right, but we need to error on the side of grace more than law.
And that's something we Christians need to be known for, being more gracious than legal than righteous in that sense. Okay. And one final thing, should I use pronouns that are going to make that person happy? Or should I, you know, she or versus he, you know, I wouldn't, what should I do?
What would you recommend? I just call it as like, Hey, it's a girl. I'm going to call her a girl, even though they want to be called him. I'm just saying you say, well, what do you think? Oh, you want to do this?
You'll do that. I avoid the pronoun usage. Oh, okay.
And I, there's someone on the web I know of who's going through and doing that. And they said, why don't you use pronouns? I said, I do use pronouns. No, call her what she wants you to call her. I says, I'll call her what I want to call her. She cannot have the right to make me speak the way she wants me to speak. You want me to have you guys speak the way I want you to speak. Is that what you're saying?
If it's okay for one, it's okay for the other. Is that what you want? Because if that's the case, I want you to dress me a certain way. I want you to dress me as pastor, minister, apologist, Matt.
That's my pronoun. That's what I want to be called. You're going to do that. And each time you call me that, okay.
That's what you want to do. If you're not going to do that, then you don't have the right to tell me how I need to address her. Well, you hurt her feelings. Whoa, that that's it?
Hurt her feelings? Wow. I didn't know that was the universal crisis.
The universal criteria of changing pronoun usage according to what God has given them. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.
They don't like to answer those kinds of questions. So I just say you and, uh, and that's it. Do you want this?
You want that? Okay. All right, brother. Thanks so much. All right, man.
God bless. All right, let's get to Chuck from Burlington. Hey, what's up, Chuck? Hey, Matt. How you doing? Matt, I had a question about the seeker friendly churches.
Okay. What was the whole deal with it? Were they, did they mean seeking for Christ or I guess it's impossible to say because each person is different who would go there. A seeker friendly church, generally speaking, is a church designed to, uh, comfort those who are seeking things about God who aren't Christians, but might be curious. So the seeker friendly church tries to make everything as comfortable as possible within reason for the unbeliever. Well, that's good.
Is it? Well, well, uh, okay, then I'm going to have to, I would have to leave it to the Holy Spirit. Well, listen, you're the only call we got right. You're the only call we got right now. Let's talk about it.
Is it okay to make the environment comfortable enough for unbelievers to come in? Would you say that's okay? Yeah, I would too. I would too. I would too.
Yeah. And you know, if you are in a particular neighborhood and, uh, and all you do in your church is sing, you know, 12th century hymns in a foreign language, that's not seeker friendly and it's not conducive to opening the door to the culture at the time. What if, however, the preacher preaches a sermon so that the unbelievers are not offended? Now what?
Is that okay? Well, not offended. That's a big question about having to be born again or, you know, there you go. Now you're asking the right questions because the preacher isn't supposed to preach a sermon to not offend the unbeliever. He's supposed to preach a sermon to equip the Christians, train them in righteousness and the conviction of the truth upon them, uh, moved by the Holy Spirit. Should they join in and hear a sermon? When I preach, I don't preach to please men.
I preach to please God. No, right. That's it. Right.
Yeah. My, my neighbor, I, uh, I, uh, well, didn't exactly taste my, I tried to be nice, but they don't talk to me too much. They're Catholics now. So that's all right. I gave him good gospel literature and I said, this is the truth, Mike. Cause I gave his wife, I gave him good gospel literature.
I tracked a couple of years ago and she was well scared, you know, and that was good. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's good. And so I gave him a couple of things cause he had cancer of his ear or something. Right. A couple of booklets and maybe one was not, not, uh, uh, wasn't the right title. Was it said death so soon and heaven so near. When did the only one I had, so all again, I know.
All I could think of was, well, maybe that was the one I had there with God. That's what God wanted. There you go. Just you work with what you have and you move forward. That's what you do. Right. Amen. Amen.
That's fine. So seeker sensitive churches can be good. They can be bad.
It depends on what's happening, what context, what reasons, how the preaching is going and things like that. Yeah. And so I'm automatically right. Yeah.
I'm not automatically averse to seeker sensitive churches, but by definition they water, they tend to water down the preaching and make things super comfortable with the unbelievers. That's a problem. Yeah.
That's a problem. Yeah. That was behind my question, my, my motive to be honest with you the whole time. I just wanted to get your take on it, but you, you, I think you handled it.
I mean, you answered me very well. Okay. Well good. Praise God, man.
There's the music. All right. All right, buddy. God bless Chuck.
All right. Hey folks, there's the music and by his grace, look back on there on Monday. I hope you have a great weekend.
You know, pray, tithe, go to church, love each other. And by his grace, look back on there tomorrow and maybe you'll be listening. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you later. God bless. Why another program powered by the truth network.
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