Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created as a If you're new to the show, you're not sure what the show is about. I'm a Christian apologist, which means I defend the Christian faith. And, um, you can call in about all kinds of stuff. In fact, in about two hours, I'm supposed to be in a debate with a oneness guy on the doctrine of the Trinity. And, uh, we'll see how that goes. I don't believe the oneness people, um, have any good arguments and I don't think it's a, uh, I'll get into it later. You know, I can talk about it maybe, but I'll tell you a oneness theology just does not work, um, and yet they hold to it. So the Trinity is one God in three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal persons. But, uh, oneness says there's only one person in the Godhead and that he takes different forms, let's say, or manifestations at different times. And, uh, there's logical problems with that.

So we'll get into that debate tonight. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. Let's get to, I guess that's Buskman from Ohio, Buskman welcome. You're on the air. Hey, it's always good to talk to you, Matt.

Oh, good. Well, I'm not talking to you. So what do you got, man?

What's up? Well, I had this question float in my head there, my friend, and I'm wondering, do you believe that the apostle Paul, uh, encompassed all the spiritual gifts that are found that are listed in our new Testament, uh, I think it's Romans 12, first Corinthians 12, Ephesians four and, uh, first Peter four, did he encompass all of them that, and if not, which ones did the apostle Paul lack, but if he did, Matt, then does that make it possible for all the Christians that, that came after the apostle Paul to also encompass all the gifts? Well, first of all, I don't know if he had all the gifts we have to go through and list them all. And there are six that are not operated by the Holy spirit, like administrations and things like that and helps. And there are 10 that are charismatic and, uh, the 10 is includes the doctrine of salvation.

So that's one of the, uh, let me close. There we go. So, uh, the regenerative work of God. So, uh, you know, uh, he says he thinks God, he speaks in tongues more than all.

And I, he know, we know he did that when he prophesied, he probably could discern spirits. Um, and the rest of my, you know, I don't know, I have to go to see and list them out and see if we could find if he did or didn't. So off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. Okay.

Okay. That was, uh, one of the, uh, things that came up and even in my own life, because there has been some really cool experiences that I have logged in my memory, Matt, uh, that where people were healed by Jesus Christ through this broken vessel. Uh, there was a word of knowledge, uh, that was given to me in a worship service once, and it, the story's too long to take up your time, but it was absolutely amazing what happened.

And I still remember it got the date in my head. So I kind of wanted to have a little bit of biblical stance on those who might say that the gifts that they do not, you know, progress. And I'd like to show them, well, I know Jesus had them, uh, did the apostle Paul have them as us not being defined as our Lord was? See, the thing is they can say that, that Paul had them, but they, the cessationists say that with the completion of the Canon, that the apostolic gifts or the charismatic gifts were no longer needed. So it doesn't matter if he had them all or no longer needed. Is that what they say is needed? Well, the different people say different words, no longer needed, no longer in existence, um, et cetera.

And so the general thing is they didn't need them. Uh, but when, after the Canon was completed, that's their argument, they go to 1st Corinthians 13. And, um, in fact, recently I discovered that some friends of mine are going to be producing a video on why the charismatic gifts don't work and are not for today. And, uh, so I'm probably going to end up doing a video in contradiction to that, you know, interesting.

Yeah. Because that'd be on your website, sir. You would be on, you know, our YouTube site. Uh, if we're going to get it done, I don't know what tact they're going to take. So it could be reactionary, but if I had some information on what they're going to, you know, I could talk, contact them, you guys doing, you know, I don't believe it's a good, good idea.

I do not believe it's a good idea to, to put up a video on or whatever, why the gifts have ceased. If that's what they're doing, I don't get this wise because it unnecessarily causes division in the body of Christ. Amen. Amen. If they tackle it with wisdom and love, they say, look, we believe there's brothers everywhere. We're just telling you, here's our position.

This is why we're not differentiating between them, et cetera. Um, and it'd be fine. It would be interesting to see is, uh, if in their video, they're going to do a counter aside and they both know me and know my position. So let's see if they contact me and ask me for an interview on that position. Um, but I doubt if they will, but, um, yeah, please keep your, uh, your listeners here on the radio show, uh, a breast of that when it looks like it might be coming out. So we can watch for that. That would, I would really be interested in seeing that and that. Yeah, it's, well, I heard the funding for it was just established.

Why do you need funding? I guess they're going to be traveling to different places to interview different pastors and stuff and then have a film crew and put together a really nice video and which is fine if they want to do that. Um, you know, if it was out, I would probably do a, an analysis on it and say, oh, let's, here's the other position, you know, now, you know, you guys decide. So, um, I just think that the cessationist arguments, this is my opinion, you know, love my brothers in Christ who are cessationists, but, um, I just think their arguments are weak, very weak exegetically. Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, very good, sir. It's always, uh, and I'm glad once again, it's good to hear, uh, someone with your influence to, to keep the body of Christ together.

Uh, Lucifer is really trying to tear us apart and he'll use every little fraction and crack that he can get his claw into. So I bless you for that brother. And, um, yeah, we'll do everything we can to not sow discord among the brethren. And I'm, I'm of that as well.

Yeah. And you know, like there are, for example, people who, um, in other context, they attack reformed theology and they produce videos attacking it and it causes division in the body of Christ. It just is not necessary to do, you know, I'm, I'm definitely reformed in my theology and I'm all millennial.

I don't produce videos, uh, condemning, uh, the opposite position. You know, people ask me questions. I say, here's my position.

This is why I hold to this. And you know, and that's it. I don't want division in the body of Christ.

We need to be fighting, uh, what's outside. Um, not what's inside in an issue of audio offer. Yeah.

Honor the prayer of our Lord in John 17. Yeah. That's right. And then man, brother. Alrighty. Very good, man. I always appreciate your time and your insights, sir. All right, man.

Well, God bless. Thanks for calling. You too. Okay, sir. Bye bye. All right.

We have five open lines. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 8772072276 tonight. Uh, I'll be in a debate, um, verify that it's on because, um, I guess on my calendar I said, we have someone who helps out and arranges things and it says verified, but I haven't talked to anybody about it.

So I got to verify that it's verified. And even if it, you know, I don't know, I haven't even studied for prep for it, but it's on oneness versus a Trinity. And, um, so I was any rate, uh, you know, maybe I'll talk about a little bit here, but if it's going to happen, what I'll do is I will put the link information up.

I believe it's going to happen. I'll put it up on the carm.org forward slash calendar so that you can, what the heck, why did that get changed? Um, wow. So I went to forward slash calendar and it's completely different.

So it's like, what happened now? I'm going to check this out monthly. Oh, I think our web guy put in some stuff. Now I got to learn how to add stuff in there daily. Let's try this list. Okay. Grid and then tile. So it's new to me.

Our web guy was doing some stuff, I guess. All right. Hey, no big deal. If you want to give me a call, like I said, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Let me go over the oneness stuff, what they teach and why to problem oneness is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is the teaching that there are three distinct simultaneous co-eternal persons in the Godhead. When we say person, we don't mean a person like you and me. The theological significance of the word person means, um, the attributes, uh, that designate what we call personhood. So attributes such as self awareness, awareness of others can speak, can think, um, can love, can hate, can reason recognizes others, recognizes themselves, things like that. And so we see that the fathers and Holy Spirit each exemplify these attributes and then they speak to each other and they each have wills and things like that. And so hence we just say three distinct simultaneous persons.

It's pretty basic, it's pretty simple and it's pretty easy. However, there are those who will say that the Trinity is not true. Sometimes they misrepresented and say it's three separate gods and that's never the case. The Trinity was never that. Uh, and I find that the oneness position is problematic. Now they, they teach that God is one single person who is eternally existed as a single person. And that, uh, in creating in creation, he, I gotta be careful how I say this, God don't want to misrepresent their position, but basically he, um, manifests in different ways at different times.

Now that's a very generic way to say it. It used to be back in the eighties, um, that when I talked to United Pentecostal pastors that they were modalists with a mode of the father existed in the Old Testament, the mode of the son existed in the New Testament, and then the mode of the Holy Spirit exists now. And so the father became the son and became the Holy Spirit. That's called modal monarchianism. And that's easy to refute, very easy to refute.

And I remember back in the day, uh, talking to a lot of UPC, United Pentecostal pastors, um, uh, UPC is United Pentecostal Church, but some UCP, uh, UPC pastors, I would talk to them and they taught modalism. And then over the next 20 years or so, I've started hearing different definitions of oneness from people who held to it. And they would say that's never what they believe. Some say it is what they would believe. Some say different manifestations. Some say the one person in different forms, uh, you know, and, and I always want to represent the other position accurately. So if there's a oneness person out there, it's a deli who really knows that theology can call me up and you can say, this is what we actually teach, but, um, it is problematic. Oneness is similar to Unitarianism and Unitarianism encompasses such things as the Jehovah's Witness theology and Islam.

And so, uh, there are problems inside of the idea that there's only one person that God had, but, Hey, look, there's the, uh, the music for the break. If you want to give me a call, all you gotta do is dial 8772072276. We'll be right back.

Welcome back to the show. It's 20 after the hour. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 8772072276.

Last four digits spelled C-A-R-M. CARM.org. All you do is give me a call. No big deal. We can talk about whatever we want to talk about. Four open lines. I'm waiting for you. Let's get to Gary from Ohio. Gary, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. This is Gary.

Hey, love your show, brother. It was one that, uh, you know, you had a video and you spoke about, uh, following like a female pastor, female pastors. Yeah. You know, I'm not, I'm not into female pastors. I don't have anything against them. Um, you know, I personally listened to male male pastors, but, um, did you say that was a sin?

I, the Bible doesn't say it's a sin, but the Bible speaks against it. Okay. Okay.

That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. I thought, I thought you were pretty clear about that.

I didn't know. I haven't personally, I'm, I'm born again, uh, for about, you know, a fairly newborn again. I haven't completed the Bible. And, you know, mainly I was calling about a friend of mine that's, uh, a long term Christian. And I had mentioned, I passed on your show to him and he took quite offense to this man. I mean, he really got offended. Well, you know what?

It's funny. You took the words right out of my mouth, but you know what he said? Well, he said something in a message to me that, uh, he said, man, I'm not talking to somebody that don't know anything about, and I said, excuse me, I think I know why you won't call him. Um, I think I understand why, but yeah, I'm trying to, you know, I was just trying to explain to him that I said, uh, he, he was, you know, it's funny because I don't want to lose a friendship, but he got quite good. You may lose a friendship over this. I'll explain what's important, but go ahead. I'll explain. Go ahead. You know, real quick, the final, the final up with him, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's kinda, uh, it's kinda weird because I've been a long-term friend with this guy and I go to church at the church.

I like the church there. Uh, he actually brought me to Christ pretty much. Okay. And, um, and so, you know, I had thanked him for that in the past and, but, but when I mentioned to him, his words out of his mouth, why would you listen to somebody? His reply was, that speaks about female pastors and, hey, you don't believe in God sends women to do, uh, to do God's work. And, and I'm like, hold on here. You know, I said, call Matt.

I said, I'm not, and then it went on and on. And I said, I'm just telling you what Matt said. I said, I think I believe him more than you do. So then I believe you, but I didn't tell him that, but I would love to know, man, that, you know, what, what did, uh, you know, what it really does say in the Bible. I believe though, that, um, my thing is real quick. I believe God, you know, he sets male, uh, males to, to, to lead churches.

Right. Well, let me give you the, uh, the rundown here. It's, uh, it's, it's important and I'm hoping that people who are listening on the East coast who affirm women pastors and elders will actually pay attention. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but, but listen to what the word of God says and, uh, we'll see. So I'm going to start in the garden of Adam and Eve because Adam was created first and then he named the animals and then he named Eve.

This is a designation of authority. He had the right to call Eve what she was. And when, um, Adam and Eve, uh, were in that garden, the enemy came to Eve first and usurped the position of authority that Adam had. And so he went to the woman. She ate of the fruit and she gave it to her husband. So she sinned first and then, uh, Adam sinned second. But Romans five 12 says that sin entered the world through one man and that's through Adam because he is the one who's what's called the federal head. Federal headship is the teaching that the male represents the descendants, not the female. This is a biblical teaching. I can go into it more, but that's a good place to start right there. Federal headship.

Federal headship. Right. Now most Christians aren't aware of it, but I have to teach it to them so they understand it and see why it's important.

But nevertheless, Paul says in first Timothy two 12 and 13, he says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. Oh man, I see. That's great.

I got to look that up. Uh, Paul, hold on, hold on. Let me, let me finish the verses and stuff like that.

Okay. It says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet for it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. Well, that's first Timothy two 12 and 13.

And so what Paul is saying, he doesn't allow women to do this, to have to teach or exercise authority over a man. She's remained quiet. Now the word quiet there in Greek is and it means to keep it down. You can be even more quiet.

You can be more. Now is another word for quiet, but it means absolute silence. You can't be more silent.

You're silent. That's it. And that's not the word used here. It's so it deals with the idea of, of keeping it down, not being overly verbose about stuff, but they're being quiet about this for it was Adam was first created and then Eve. So Paul is tying it to the created order. He's tying it to the created order.

Real simple, real simple. Now when you go to first Timothy five 17, it says the elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of the double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. So the elders work hard at preaching and teaching. So preachers and teachers.

Okay. And elders. Now the word elder in the Greek here is masculine plural. Now we don't do this in English very much, you know, actors and actresses that's masculine plural and feminine plural. We only have a few words that are like that, but in Greek nouns have a gender.

Uh, they have male, female, masculine, feminine, or neuter, and they all have that construct. So here the word is masculine plural and it's presbuteroi. It's the elders.

All right. Now when I was in first Timothy two 12 and 13, and I was reading from that, uh, where Paul says, you know, doesn't allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain silent. That's first Timothy chapter two and first Timothy chapter three verse 15. He says, in case I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church, the living God of the living God, the pillar of the truth. So he's giving instructions specifically on how we're to behave in the church. And he says, he doesn't allow a woman to teach or exercise authority, but to remain silent for Adam was first created. Now that's first Timothy two and first Timothy three 15. He's saying he's giving instruction to the church also in first Timothy three, it says, uh, in verse one is a trustworthy statement. If any man aspires to the office of overseer, that's the Greek word episkopos. Uh, it's a fine work for an overseer episkopos. That's the word Bishop. They get in English a lot, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife. Okay. Andra mias gunikas in the Greek, a husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach not just to the wine.

He must manage his household well, et cetera. Um, deacons must likewise be men of dignity. That's what it says. Okay.

So, um, there's that. And now I'm gonna go to almost done here. Go to Titus, read Titus one, starting at verse five. When I get back to the break, a reminder though, that the, uh, the bishops are the ones who are to be a man of one woman, Matt, a husband of one wife, a woman can't fit that.

We'll get to elders after the break. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, all you gotta do is dial 8 7 7 2 0 7 2 2 7 6. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 8 7 7 2 0 7 2 2 7 6. Here's Matt Slick.

Everybody. Welcome back to the show. Gary. Let's see.

Gary is still there. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

All right. So I did what I established from scripture that Paul says women are not to be in teaching authority over men, but remain silent because Adam was first created. So it's not a cultural thing and that the pastors are by definitions elders out of first Timothy 5 17 and first Peter 3 15. Paul says he's giving instruction on how we're to behave in the church. So this is, this is ecclesiastical instruction from the apostle Paul on how we do this in church. And I went to, uh, first Timothy three one and started reading about the bishops or the episcopo in Greek. And it goes down to the deacons as well, who to be Andras Miasko Nikas, husbands of one wife.

Now I'm gonna go to Titus one five. For this reason I left you in Crete that you should set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city that directed you. If any man is above reproach the husband of one wife on her Miasko Nikas, having children who believe not accused of dissipation, etcetera, etcetera. So in each case, the elder, the bishop and the deacon are all to be men of one woman or husband of one wife. So therefore they cannot be held by women. These offices, they're not to be held by women because the Bible tells us that Paul is saying this. He's giving instruction to the church and he says what he does not allow. And then he does the negative.

You can't do this, but then the positive, this is what you're to do. And the leadership is male, period. The reason is because the male is the one who has that responsibility of leadership in the church and in the home.

And it's not an issue of one being better than the other. That's not it. It's just the hierarchical structure that God has set up. And that's it. And you know, it's like he's bringing up degrading or something like that. And I said, Larry, where are we going with this? I said, Larry, I mean, I listen to male pastors just because I don't listen to a female. I've tried to entertain them a little bit just because I drive a truck and I would rather listen to pastors and depending on where I'm at, whatever's on, I'll, you know, I'll try to entertain it.

Like I listened to your show and I found your show like that. Yeah, exactly. That's why I'm asking him. I said, and you know, I mentioned to him too that I think you had said too that you haven't yet had a female pastor come and debate you. Is that correct?

That's correct. I've offered it on the radio for 17 years and I'll do it again. I just offer a debate. Anybody wants to debate me on the issue.

Does the Bible teach? Go ahead. You know, man, I'm never against women. I'm never going to attack them. I mean, it's not anything about anything like that. I never degrade, um, you know, however. Right. And you know, he mentioned finishing up with him, with my buddy, he says, do you believe in God's word?

And I'm thinking, excuse me? I know God doesn't promote. I don't even know the Bible half as good as you do. I know God doesn't promote women.

Yeah, he does. Not in that sense, not for the church thing. Um, ask him to show you in the Bible where the idea of women pastors is supported. Just say, can you show it to me in the Bible?

And he won't be able to because it's not there. And to say that it's degrading the women, uh, then what he's doing is he's, he's then imposing a secularist view on scripture. He's saying, if you don't allow this, that means equality isn't there. Therefore it's not right. So he's actually affirming non-biblical perspectives.

He's, he's being, um, he's being influenced by secularism. So, um, ask him to verify his position. Give him a call. You know, we can talk. Will do, man.

Yeah, I've tried. I gave him your phone number. I said, Hey, man, that's like, he's easy to get all.

Yeah. Hey man, I appreciate your call. I mean, no problem, man. Appreciate it, buddy.

We'll catch it with you later. Thanks. Bye. All right. All right. God bless.

So I'll offer it again. If anybody wants to debate me in a formal public debate recorded on the topic, does the Bible support women, pastors, and elders, then let's do it. I've been offering this debate challenge for years and years and years, and no one's taken me up on it.

Why is that? And I'll tell you why, because they know if they have to go to the Bible, they won't be able to support your position. And they know that I can quote the scriptures and say, what do you do with this? And the fact is that if they know that, and then they refuse to repent of their, their false teaching about women, pastors, and elders, then they are willingly going against God.

If they know that I'm going to be going to the word and quoting the scriptures and they don't want to deal with that, then that means they know the scriptures are something they can't handle and that they are in opposition to that word and they retain that opposition anyway. And this is a sad thing. Furthermore, I'll tell you that, um, I did a lot of research on this and I mean a lot of research on it. And I discovered that, um, 80% of the past, of the churches and denominations that adopt women, pastors, and elders within two generations, 80% adopt pro-homosexual, um, ideas. So, uh, there you go. And, uh, I could talk about that quite a bit. I'd love to have a conference on this because it's not just an issue of a few verses in the Bible.

There's more to it. Men's failures and women's failures in this. And why does God have this order set up the way he is?

And by the way, it's not degrading to women. If you say it's degrading to women to be under the authority of a man and not being a teaching position of the church, then you have to understand that Jesus was under the authority of the father and sent by him to do his will. And that authority was Jesus then degraded?

Of course not. I say to people, stop adopting secularist ideas. Bow your knees before God and believe the word of God. He knows what he's doing when he talks like this. He knows what he's doing.

And we Christians need to follow what the word says, not what we want it to say. Let's get on the air with Boyle from Virginia. Boyle, welcome on the air. Thank you, sir, for your, uh, for me to have the opportunity to speak with you, to ask you a question, sir, maybe you can help me out. Sure. No problem. I listened to you a couple of statements back there with two others there about, uh, God is one, God is Trinity and that kind of thing.

Yeah. So, uh, and I appreciate your representative that answers the phone. Uh, tell him, uh, we had a disagreement. I apologize. I'm sorry. Okay. He's a good guy. That's all right. He's a good guy. Uh, okay.

Yeah, he is. Uh, it's my fault. He said I come at him the wrong way.

Well, I didn't mean to. Anyway, my question is this, sir. Uh, in the Bible, in God's word, it says this, when they said, Oh, good master. And Jesus said to the disciples, why do you call me good?

There is only one good. That's the father. Then he turns around and says, I and the father are one. Then he says, then he says, father, into my, into your, into your spirit, I can, uh, into, unto you, I commend my spirit.

So there's like pros and cons. And somebody said, well, that's cause you don't understand. God never makes a mistake. He's not confused.

We are. So my question is, what is he? Is he three in one?

Is he three separate? Because if he's on the cross, he's saying, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You're throwing a lot of stuff out very quickly.

And when, when that happens, we can't get to anything. So you went to New York for you. That's where I come from. Well, okay. So in Luke 18, 19, Jesus says, why call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Right? Right. Let me ask you, was Jesus good? Well, there was nothing, but he was good.

Anybody knows him knows that's true. So then Jesus is, according to that logic, Jesus would be God, right? Well, yeah, so far. Go ahead. Okay. All right. So that was one statement you made. So, uh, you want to know if God is one or three, he's one God in three persons. Okay.

Right. But what I'm getting at is confusing when he said, why do you call me good? There's only one good, the father. So he's saying, I'm not good on his father, but we know he's good. So therefore, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He didn't say he's not good.

Okay. A ruler questioned him saying, good teacher. What shall I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus said, why do you call me good? No one's good except God alone. So what's he saying? You can't just think that Jesus sometimes just says a little quick statement.

Like you and I might say something without much meaning behind it. He knows what he's doing. And he's saying to this, he's saying to this guy, well, what are you, what are you calling me good for? God is good.

What are you saying? He said a question that's meant to get this guy to think. And that's what he's doing. And of course we know Jesus is good logically. Then he must be God from that logic, that brief bit of logic. And then he goes on and he says, then he says, keep certain commandments. You know, the commandments do this.

And the guy says, yeah. And things like he's looking on his own goodness is what he's trying to do is a contrast between the goodness of Christ. Right. The, the thing I would throw to you is when I read John 15, chapter 15, when he's talking here about, uh, I'm trying to think how the scripture goes. Uh, when he is talking in there in John 15, he said, uh, I honor my father that he might honor me.

Yeah. That's, uh, that's because that's because he's the Trinity is true. And because Jesus has two natures, he's divine and human and he's made under the law. Galatians four, four.

That's why he would pray to the father and call him God under the law required to do that. Hold on, man. We got to, we got a break coming up.

Okay. Can you hold on? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

We're at the last break of the art. You want to give me a call? 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking a call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Boyle from Virginia. Boyle, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you, sir.

All right. I guess I go back to when I read the scriptures, a lot of times I kind of, I kind of find conflicting statements and I know that God is perfect. And he showed me that in many times with the Holy Spirit, but sometimes when you read the statements, it's a little bit hard to fully grasp, you know, unless the Holy Spirit gets full understanding.

He'll say, like I said earlier, uh, why do you call me good? There's only one good, the father. And then he's saying, I am the father of one and father, I commend my spirit to you. And you know, then they say, there's a controversy going around, say, well, Jesus raised himself from the dead.

I said, I don't believe that. My conviction is that God, the father, because it says that Jesus raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus said in John 2 19 through 21, destroy this temple three days.

I will raise it up. You speak of the temple of his body in the Greek. It's the future active, indicative, which means that he is performing the action of his resurrection. John 2 19 to 21, right there. So I take that as the father raising Jesus from the dead, not Jesus, even though Jesus, Jesus actually is said to have raised himself along with the father who raised him. See John 2 19 through 21. Jesus said, destroy this temple in three days.

I will raise it up. So Jesus said, oh, then so he's the father raising. No, no, he speaks to the father. He can't be the father if he speaks to the father and the father speaks to this. That's what I taught on the cross. He said, father into your spirit.

I commend my spirit. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. There are two persons, not two gods, persons in theology. I thought it was like three persons in one, God, the father, son, and the Holy Spirit. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not three persons in one. Because I listened to you before when you said...

Hold on, boil, boil, boil. I keep trying to help you out. You keep cutting me off through my sentences and you take off in another direction. Well, my apologies. So we just need to listen. It's one God in three persons.

The persons is a theological... Okay, we'll move along. All right, because he keeps interrupting and we can't have a conversation if he's going to continue to interrupt you and after I asked him not to. Folks, we have four open lines. If you have a question, give me a call. 877-207-2276. Why don't you give me a call? Let's get to Gerald from North Carolina. Gerald, welcome.

You're on the air. We watched him. All right. Well, his question had to do, however, with Noah, Ham, and Ham's son, Canaan. And why did God curse Canaan instead of Ham? Because it says in Genesis 9 that Noah woke. He knew that his youngest son had done to him.

So it looks like... I don't know actually what the reason is. There's different theories about it.

Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside that Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it on him. And I don't know. I don't know.

I'm going to have to look into it to see what the reason is. I want to give this guy... Oh, there's Gerald right there. Hey, Gerald. Gerald, man, welcome. You're on the air, buddy. You there?

Yes, sir. I heard a preacher recently tell the reason why Ham's son was cursed instead of Ham. And I'm just kind of wondering. I haven't found anything how the Bible usually explains itself to explain why God cursed Ham's son instead of cursing Ham for seeing his father naked. I don't know if the Bible gives us a reason. So when we go to Genesis 9, and I think it's around verse 25, so let's read a little bit so we can discern something from the text. Starting in verse 20, Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became drunk and uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father.

And their faces were turned away so that they did not see the father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him. So he said, Cursed be Canaan, a servant of servants.

He shall be to his brothers. So it doesn't say why he cursed Ham's son. So all we can do is offer theories. Right, that's what the pastor was doing then. Well, I'm curious, what did he say was the reason? He said that evidently Ham's son Canaan went in with him, which the Bible doesn't say anything about. And since they had come from the world that was destroyed because of all the sins, that the sin of homosexuality was started with Canaan doing something actually to Noah after Ham left. So he was basically speculating.

Right. Another possibility is that there was an issue of disrespect shown to Noah. You're not supposed to see your father naked in that culture.

It was very disrespectful. So when Ham came in, what was the reason he did? It doesn't tell us. Did he just barge in because you shouldn't just barge into your father's quarters? Or did he shout to his father and it didn't answer?

He went in concerned. Again, the Bible doesn't tell us. And so either way, he sees his nakedness, it's not good.

He goes out and tells his brothers. And yet he and his son, or his son is the one cursed. And I can't help but wonder if it might not be something to do with, and I don't know, but the three original sons of Noah were covenanted by God and called by God to be in the ark. And so therefore Noah wouldn't curse them because they were under God's, let's just say, covenantal care. So he went to the next down the line and cursed them instead. Okay, well that kind of gives it more indication of, well, you know, the son would have been cursed over the father.

But the Bible also says, you know, he'll not visit the sins of the father on the sons. And from that I was just kind of, but you know, there's a lot of questions I've had and I'm just leaving them to when I get there, I'll get answers. Yeah, I got a few on my own. I got a list of, yeah, there's some things. Yeah, me too.

I got a list. But I do appreciate your show. I appreciate you giving a little respect to why God would have cursed Canaan instead of Ham.

So I do appreciate your knowledge. There's another reason. There's another possible reason that God, He has the right to make one vessel for honorable use, another for dishonorable use, Romans 9, 22 and 23.

Some people say that vessels are groups of people. I don't affirm that in that context. But God does have the right, extending the logic, to do with the people as He desires. He has the right to curse Canaan, whether He wants to or not, because Canaan automatically is a sinner by being born. And it could be, this is just a possibility, that the curse of Canaan was necessary in order to bring about other things in history that would come about later on according to God's sovereign plan. Now, that's a possibility, okay? Well, in my study, where the tribes of Canaan settled were basically in the area of Sodom and Gomorrah, so that's what he was saying, that from Canaan came the sin of homosexuality into the nation again. Right. Yep. So it looks like a sexual thing going on, and it might be that it purposely excluded the reason because it was reprehensible. And it could be also that the people of the time knew exactly what the issue was.

And that's certainly possible, but all we have is the opportunity to list out a few possibilities and say, here's what we come up with, and we'll find out when we get to heaven. That's a little bit more than I had to start with, and I do appreciate your time. And I love your show, and listen to it as often as I can. Well, thank you.

I appreciate that support. And thanks for calling, too. Okay. All right. All right. And you have a great day. You too, Gerald. God bless, man. Thanks. All right. Let's get to Stacy from Utah. Hi, Stacy. Welcome. You are on the air. Thank you.

You're welcome. I live in Utah, so I've lived with Mormonism all my life. I am not. But I always was curious about, I thought Jesus, because he was one of the spirit babies chosen between him and Lucifer to come down here, that he was supposed to go to another planet to become a god there. Is that wrong? Well, there's one of the problems in Mormonism. If Jesus was so good and never sinned and he followed celestial law, then shouldn't he have been exalted to another world? But he's staying in this realm, apparently, in the Trinity, which they say is three separate gods, which is false teaching. It's not three gods.

But you're right. In the preexistence, according to God in Mormonism, God has a body of flesh and bones. He used to be a man in another world near a star called Kolob and became a god, brought one of his wives with him to this world and produces spirit babies. Now, the general theory is Jesus was the firstborn and that we were all born brothers and sisters in the preexistence to Jesus. And, of course, Lucifer is our brother in the spirit realm and he fell. And so, yeah, so that's what it is. And the Jesus of Mormonism is not the same Jesus of the Bible.

Oh, I know that. I'm a Christian. I was raised half and half by a father who was Mormon and a mother who wasn't. And then, thank God, he did become a Christian and believed in Jesus Christ and the Trinity and everything. But I never had understood why all the Mormons that I live around have pictures of Jesus when I was thinking, well, wasn't he supposed to go somewhere else? Why is he still here in their belief system? Yep.

Yep. There's inconsistencies inside of Mormonism, lots of them. And it's because Joseph Smith made it up. And he didn't think ahead very far.

He couldn't. I believe that when he started Mormonism, I know the story that's repeated by eyewitnesses of how he started Mormonism, what happened. And it's in the book by E.W. Howe, H-O-W-E, called Mormonism Unveiled, written in 1834.

And I have a copy of it. And if you call back tomorrow, we can go through it, of what they said Joseph Smith said to them on how Mormonism got started, the real reason it got started. And so I believe he had to make things up as he went. And that explains why there are so many inconsistencies inside of Mormonism. Well, all of them, they make up things as they went when they sort of became in charge, they made something up to fit them. That's often the case. It was never consistent. Right. Yeah, when you have these prophets who arise, they suddenly have prophecies about themselves. And they're usually put in a good light. Isn't it convenient?

And often has to do with women. Hey, we got to go, okay, Stacey? So come back tomorrow.

We'll talk about the origins of Mormonism if you want. Okay. All right. All right.

Hey, folks, we're out of time. May the Lord bless you. By His grace, we're back on the air tomorrow. And I'm going to try and get a new calendar thing updated for the new debate tonight. God bless. Another program powered by the truth network.