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June 2, 2022 5:00 pm
The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network mats like why is the founder and president of apologetics.
Research was found alive you have questions about Bible doctrine. Why rent is called responding to your questions at 87707276 live if you're a new listener shows about. I'm a Christian apologist which we to defend the Christian faith. So if you are interested in talking about the Lord Jesus, the Bible, Christianity logic, aliens, the call to Mormonism. Job's witnesses Christian science unity by let's see all kind of stuck transcendental philosophy, politics we talk little kind of stuff from a biblical perspective and I hope this can work. Today we have the garlic harm homepage CAR.O RG it. Let's see if it's going to be the concurrent one because Laura usually is when it goes and it really quickly and fixes it and see it done so I might do it but really weak we can do is if you're interested in watching me sit at my desk with a radio headset on all the stuff and do this.
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You do not go to give McCall go African lines 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Please give me a call and we can blab we can talk would be fun and hopefully writing something to talk about What it is another big deal.
Just jump on the air and get with Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina Rudolph welcome here you my way. And Chronicle 21 why big guy named David Fortin number the Israel because he wasn't to trust in the arm of the people who the numbers and power that he had and so even though they do have Outlook's theology behind so that was why God told him not to do it though, to put trust and faith in mere man in the work of God and right all right thank you.
Anything else you. I think I might what will call you back okay okay sounds good thank you Rudolph God bless matter. God bless you. Thank you about okay hey I don't.
I need to do this, a renowned analysis let you know that was failure by you or supports investment much would you please consider going to be at the card website signing up for five dollars a month is not five dollars a month.
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We deftly knew that prayer and that support right five open lines. What you may call 877-207-2276 I released some articles today and one of them is in preparation for some further analysis of issues inside the new apostolic Reformation and the reason I did that is because we did have a foundation of God's word in order to understand if there are apostles today that there are prophets today, but not the Old Testament sensed in the New Testament since the rise, to write an article on that other New Testament prophets for today and under New Testament apostles for today's two articles on the writing and there are no New Testament apostles for not like were the Old Testament. Basically the time of Christ. That's is not in the Bible. The NAR likes to say deliver some information like to say that yes they are there and that they are in authority and there are lots problems going on. Also within that two articles a list of the profits. So you have property Old Testament prophets of the New Testament. New Testament prophets are listed and abilities of New Testament prophets and stuff like that so there's some information I got there on the new apostolic Reformation, which in my opinion is similar to the New Age movement, a blending of Christian theology and the new age. Some of the stuff about that and let's see what else that I write. I wrote an article in the least. It's on the working on this for a while.
The argument against God's existence. Using conceive ability and metaphysics for those of you who are interested in that kind of stuff you go check it out if you're not good. You don't even know what I said don't worry about it it's all right now. That reminds me last night last night. Something moving microphone last night. It was on the air for 3 1/2 hours of with was somebody in the Suisse and friend in Carlos, not the guy from Columbia. We discussed the Lou still the light of the world cult and so my Spanish is not good enough to be able to teach the concept of building teaching Spanish so he was interpreting a lot and we spent three and half hours going through stuff and I was teaching them some of the concepts of argumentation that he knows that the cult far better night and was told I teach this night really had to know that and so you teach me. That is who here's an approach you can use and so I was doing with that with the issue of the ultimate and we tried it with a member of the group, they called up and so loneliness needs coming on her, so I hope I can get past this knees. Oh my goodness is good okay I'm trying to sleep in, so while patently distracting pushing through it all okay things go Cano won't survive that with it. So it was doing was talking about the issue of the ultimate because here's a question.
Here is a question implies to Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses applies to Roman Catholics and those in mood course Christian. So here's the question what is your ultimate authority. What is the authority that you look to as the final thing now if you want to be biblically consistent. The ultimate authority have to be God, if you're in a group. The ultimate authority is the thing you look to that tells you what truth is ritual. The thing that you found ground or provide a foundation for grounding for truth itself. So in Mormons. For example, the ultimate truth for them. The ultimate foundation is there testimony.
It's not the word of God.
It's not the book of Mormon is not there profit if there testimony because her testimony.
They say comes from God. But it's a subjective and therefore they will say that there ultimate is the testimony of Mormon want to call it the correct that we can talk about because I can show you that that is the ultimate because they don't subject themselves to the authority of Scripture in the book of Mormon certainly doesn't contain Mormonism, and in a lot of areas, and other prophets. So-called prophets or their authority because the prophets can contradict revealed word of Scripture and even acknowledged that even on a street light so in the Catholicism. The ultimate is their sacred tradition magisterium, the papacy and in the list of Mundo it's there profit was to be their apostle and their apostle has the characteristics of God. The counter apostles when it introduces you to Jesus and things like that so you understand that the ultimate is a question what is the ultimate and of the biggest benefits maxima equity.the maximum authority. The ultimate doom. What is your final authority. It was a little bit because it's conceptually interesting. See the. The ultimate is defined as the thing against which nothing is greater and nothing precedes otherwise it's not ultimate. Therefore, it would be noncontingent because it's based on something else than whatever the something else that gives it its position as the ultimate so the ultimate is the thing of which nothing is greater. Nothing precedes it. Otherwise it's not ultimate. Therefore, it would be noncontingent. It must be singular, not plural.
Otherwise there be multiple ultimates which we is logically self refuting. You can have multiple ultimates by definition an ultimate is one thing you can't have three ultimates just this is logically possible and so we look at this issue.
The ultimates we look consider this. All facts all actualities and all potentialities must derive via causal chain from the ultimate go over that because it's really important all facts those are extent actualities and belief and knowledge and all things that exist with your aware of it or not in all things that might exist or could exist everything must derive their existence from the causal chain of the ultimate hope that makes sense. So on of the ultimate salt. With this means is that what ever is the first cause of thing is what brings it into existence. Other thing if there is no first cause. There can't be a second and the third, so all facts, actualities, potentialities must derive their existence from the causal chain of based on the ultimate that derives out of the ultimate based on the ultimate foundation notes a simple concept and if you talk to Sue Mormon for example, was the ultimate authority they might say the church they might consider testimony that might say there profit.
Depending on which Mormon with the ultimates. There does not rest with God ultimately the ultimate has to be God himself was uncreated in Mormonism. However, the Mormon God is not ultimate there's something greater than him because he is existence is contingent on something else. So the Mormon God is not ultimate that's a problem because without an ultimate you can't ground any truth. What is beyond that God beyond that God beyond that God and the on that got what is the initial cause of everything.
You can't have an infinite set of causes because there's no first cause and problem so Mormonism, for example, can't work because of that it's impossible and there's another thing to take this other things and other religious they look five open lines.
What you may call breaking 772-0727 Matt Flynn why call 77077 charismatic slave back to the show dollars on a because are interested in what I am talking about. So to do is continue to talk the cycle the ultimate because this is an apologetic show. I could teach people how to think a little more critically and went on to tell you about this is very very useful and you have to use the term ultimates or the CERT preconditions for intelligibility or necessary and sufficient conditions are universal particulars in the one of the many problem because most people are very ill equipped to deal with these kinds of issues just don't know what they are and most Christians I know have no clue about them either is what I want to say is that the way to talk about this is to think of this. What you rest your truth on now if someone says they rest or church that their truth on their church. Then you ask and what is your church come from well the church came from, whatever they say it will say it came from. You know St. someone so doesn't matter whatever they say will then what gives St. so and so authority and you keep asking these questions to have them ground their authority, their belief in something that itself does not need grounding that makes sense. The ultimate truth of something with the ultimate grounding of something itself doesn't need to be grounded if it needs to be grounded in their something ultimate. Besides, think about this, and atheists have ever offered a challenge I came across some of us eat it happen again.
Yet lately, but I'm sure so using it with her challenging Christian saying the Christian God exists because please fill in the blank and what they're looking for is a an answer that they can attack by applying the principle of grounding. If they say he is he exist because of the universe and he are one of the same thing. Christian should never say that will then how do you know that's the case, and they can keep asking these questions and then a person wouldn't be able to find the terminus find the answer where you can't go beyond what I say is the reason the Christian Trinitarian God exists is because it is his nature to exist and that's it so you can't it's a civil wise it's his nature to exist. It's a because it's his nature so the grounding is in God himself and his nature is nothing beyond him.
Nothing is that he's dependent upon. So this provides the terminus by which then we can offer the grounding and was called the beginning of the causal chain of facts. A fact is something that exists and it could be a testimony if it's a testimony. What grounded testimony. Now they might say the Holy Spirit putting us Holy Spirit, we give ways of undermining that position because they don't rest there ultimate authority. Mormons don't in the Scriptures, which are the codified representation of the nature of God is so true. It's functionally the terminus for for God because it's self revelatory with them the word of God is subject to their testimony and therefore their testimony is the ultimate but their testimony can't be grounded as an ultimate. I hope this isn't too confusing. The principles here are very important and if you can understand them. You can then adapt them to any of the questioning situation or truth situation of somebody in a false religion might assert, and it's very powerful it's very very interesting Liska to Mike from Salt Lake City Mike welcome around here with your lawyer. Your explanation that a couple on the wall in your explanation on the belief in God being no drawing or whatever, I would add though that normally can't believe any matter or any goal way created prior all of the intelligent but always a yes everything is always logically impossible. Your fine I'm good at making sure that adding your describing that I think what you're describing it. I wasn't sure how far to go in Mormon theology is using and this is one of many examples, but since you called up this talk about because they do teach that there is space as a functional infinite of intelligences that are without beginning or in the universe in which and through which and from which the C manifestations of persons occur through the Godhead and through a birth in the spiritual realm.
Okay, so now if this is say that though in the Mormon theology, then organist talk about these eternal spirits and will to say that the number is annex value. We don't know exist and a value of X how many are there. There's an X number a lot millions bill that's okay then, what they're saying is that those spirits are without beginning multiple spirits are without beginning… Take one of them and take a look at it because a spirit in that sense is not the ultimate now.
I think another sidestep because there's these things called universals like fairness car nest tree. This and the laws of logic and numbers and triangular rarity and circularity. There are these things that exist and we use them and we so to speak, touch them, so to speak. Week we discover the properties their occurrences in the world and this is how were able to communicate and make sense of our surroundings. We know that our ground tires of circles were.
We note that the bridge above us with the triangular structures is strong recognize strength recognized the concept of triangular circularity and we can argue with people in a polite way to say no that's not true because we recognize the value of truth in the law of non-contradiction are these things are all abstract ideas are all truth values and they occur in the mind because truths occur in the mind that we can recognize circularity and triangular rarity because those are extent issues we can physically pick up a circle we could draw one but at the same time.
If we were to pick a base of around object of circular object and destroy it. Circularity is not destroyed, but the concept of it continues in its independent of us. The question then becomes what must be in place in order for all of these things to exist like this.
And these things we need in order to communicate and survive in the world because if you don't know the difference between a triangle and a circle and a flat surface of the cliff guy will get more apathy okay hold on a photo] also but Hedy spent with me and hopefully excessively write back for the lines 877207227 mass Y call 770727 charismatic slave back to show Mike are still there. Alright so the question then becomes how does ace working always wanted time, how does a single spirit provide the basis for universals universals of triangular triangular at of logic, of whatever concept to come in to play with. You see the thing is that we bump into transcendentalists or universals every day. The concept of truth and speech and food and gravity and driving. These are all things that we understand to be truth values, and as long as they mesh we live. If they don't mesh we don't have any bill any way to pick communicative if we don't recognize what cliff this is and we step off a cliff. We can die. So these things are necessary for communication, rationality and survival will what must be in place in order for them to be in place that's the question and if you have an equal set of potentially infinite number of sets of eternal spirits.
You have no ultimate you have no foundation upon which anything can be justified and you can't justify these things called universals.
Therefore, the idea of eternal spirits that are multiple is ultimately self refuting because you can't have an ultimate and without an ultimate you can't have a justification of causal chain with causal chain means well here we are, how we got here something brought us in existence were that come from etc. and you go back in time. Well if the spirits are eternal. Then there is no justification for their existence. There's no way they can be justified because nothing brought them into existence and are equipped equivalently, saying they are possessing the quality of God himself.
Just is because he is but God himself is the initial cause of all things good in the universe but in the spirit realm eternal spirits had to exist in the universe, therefore where it come from as well and so the idea of eternal spirits just brings problems upon problems upon problems and so Mormonism cannot be defended at all. When this is raised falls under no go with the triangle example so triangle we both understand what were right and so the formation of that idea you know why. Like any any scientific ideas there somebody in history, but credited with covering that truth that we both recognize that truth was already 300 so God eventually they culmination of all truth in what I don't understand it. Okay, truth is God and God's truth and so it is the embodiment of all truth. And so when we learn the truth then were just learning something that under the right right my thyroid… Yes that is is right okay and okay yes there's no logic to try to make your mother tell you okay go back to the triangle, you're saying that the triangle it for them created because somebody had to discover that geometric shape. Now we agree that God understood not to talk about matters that you because you understand it, then somebody had to give it a term now we can communicate because we can communicate now we understand correct. Yes, your understanding at his back… Go but is like a lot of math where nothing can be created or shorted in the laws of math like energy can be transferred, but it may math but the math doesn't actually change so we can have a fire burned.
We burned wood fire in the math and the not become passion. Now you know your committee fellowship of category here you're you're attributing the characteristics of both mathematics to an object being burned, and though mathematics can describe the attributes of mathematics are not the same thing is not being burned: category mistake the that's okay. You're going the right track.
So the principle I would do so on the category but they cannot. Following that is what I'm talking about like the lot that where not knowing about the love there is no law of mass so the distant memory. I mathematics right the word okay mass in the SS summary. I know I'm right hundred but something that God already under right what were understanding at work. Being it but it is the amount of American something the matter can be changed but not actually changing the amount of math, even though the message of energy and related right so anyway but we were talking with C. Trent triangular your mathematics. We must both have the same understanding of them.
Otherwise we can't communicate and I agree with triangular rarity is not the product of my mind or your mind because our minds are different if they were the product of your mind, or my mind up our minds die then since there's a result of our minds, then triangular, it would cease to exist, but that makes no sense.
Therefore, triangular rarity, it's regularity is a universal it's not dependent on my Myrtle truth. It in the world. Nope, no, no, no, no Internet okay triangular narrative is not just in the world because of its in the world and is a property of the world and properties can be measured, but concepts like triangular, it cannot be measured triangular area is a universal abstract, and it occurs only in the mind we recognize triangular he will be see physical representations of it in the triangular at he is an abstract that can abstraction. I can only occur in the mind. And since it's universally true.
There's a universal mind that authors them so is called the transcendental argument for God's existence, the transcendental argument presupposes or recognizes what it's called transcendentalists triangular circularity cliff nest read nets and set asks the question what must be there in order for them to be true to have their existence and the only way to justify them. As with the universal mind and it will be one universal mind because if there's too universal or as an Mormonism teaches a potentially infinite number of of universal minds.
Then you have an infinite number of ultimates but an infinite number of ultimates is incoherent because in a could be no way to ground anything because he wouldn't know what month which mind is the ultimate source of all transcendental truths and in up a worldview withers multiple minds that are ultimate is an impossibility. So this is where I one thing on that though so that the triangle circle if I'm paying that circle of the strongest geometric shape and I hope that it I'm off right correct day and so, on the other hand, it might be a triangle you know it is stronger trying to find their ways you can be wrong and there's ways that are right right cannot conduct an Mormonism is the other the other. They have lots of wrong and that there's lots of untruth that circle that they think are the right but God embodies the all of the fruit. All of it completely understood and inbox right we you know God or that God is there's only one that embodies all all perfection. There's only one source of all truth. Multiple sources because it is multiple sources. There's multiple sources of truth, then the truth can be different because the sources are different and can justify anything at that point. This is why it repairs required is only one ultimate source one beginning to like you incoherent will Mormonism can be okay as it is already valued… Every average a conversation I have is one of the another way to demonstrate that certain religious system cannot. If you want to give McCauley 772072765 would want to be called right back mass Y call 770776 pairs nicely back to the show. I know the previous segment was a little bit heavy and the talks are beneficial for me because the help me to learn how to to say things in a more cogent way and easier to understand way and after I took some notes on what was said or to break because I plan on writing an article dealing with this so that I can equip Christians on how to think more critically and how to express these concepts to others. If you are a Mormon out there and you heard this and it didn't make any sense will you and I don't think you're stupid, it is not the case.
Early Christians you are either of these art are difficult concepts. My responsibility goal is to break them down in such a way as to make them understandable. This is difficult to do because he really is. Understand the concepts how they interrelate and how to communicate them, but I am narrowing it down more and more as a practice and also the issue of truth and thought about what truth is we want truth. The only truth is that which corresponds to the mind of God in Christianity in the Christian Trinity. God is the ultimate truth that means is that all things that exist in all facts exist because of God.
So all facts and all things that exist exist because of God because God is the one who started everything, by which all facts exist. So this makes sense and good.
I hope it does make sense. What were trying to do is to get people to understand the truth of the corresponds of the mind of God and what people are doing is is that of giving glory to God and recognizing truth that is in God with her doing is trying to determine truth on their own are trying to say things like I will be the one to decide what truth is this is what testimony is, or a burning of the bosom or a I have a feeling, and therefore no truth is because God is communicating the truth to me in the ultimate there is not God. The ultimate is their experience as a problem if there is no ultimate of God being the necessary condition by which you can justify any true statement then you can't make sense of anything. So this is hard to get through to a lot of people because it's difficult to describe, but I'm working on. Like I said, anyway. Nevertheless, it would give me a call. All you gotta do is dial 877-207-2276 let's talk about Mormonism never known it and just just so you know, I know a lot of Mormons are listening in Salt Lake City. What I remember very clearly was with a friend of mine Bill McKeever and he's out there in Sandy, Utah, and we were Walking Down Derek Temple Sq. in Gore, the beehive and I what I was walking in this woman who just happen to be walking kind of with me.
We were together, but you how to walk people near each other and she and I had a conversation and work bills like 30 feet in front of me and I'm talking to this woman and she was pleasant, really nice and she's Mormon history.
LDS is all yes how long you been Mormon, and she would get talkativeness and I was seeing that because she said she had it.
She's going to a certain place was just hundred feet or so above in front. I knew I had to say things quickly try to be as polite as possible so you you believe Mormonism right. She said all you okay so do you affirm that that God Elohim is an exalted man. She said of course this is and so God was exalted by the God on his world right Jesus, yeah, yeah, that's ultimate is true and I says okay so then Elohim came from the world right in the world. She was well. This is not true because is not was born on this planet. He formed this planet by his effort because he was alive, another planet right should like the way I was saying it, but she shows yeah that's true. I said okay I know it is true I said so then, just as she had to turn left. Go up the steps does not make your God, and Anglian sheet. She didn't like that is think Jesus took off you and it wasn't me just trying to embarrass you know that's not it. I was trying to get her to realize that what the Mormons are doing is worshiping an exalted man from another world.
That means there worshiping a created thing they are worshiping. Technically, an alien, that's where an alien is a lifelong letter planet and its mate is not the case that in Mormonism God came for the world and that from that God is God's wife who have relations and produce spirit offspring through which these eternal intelligences arrive then if that's the case then what they're saying is Mormonism teaches that they worship a being from another world, and by definition of being from another world is what we would call an alien that's renaming this and Mormonism. A lot of people don't know this Mormonism teaches us many God's and enters a mother goddess and that God used to be a man and he was exalted and he became a God, and it Mormons have the potential of becoming God's will. This is interesting because the Bible sounds. There's only one God. Isaiah 4310 44 644 845 five it says that there's only one God. God is even now with what Mormons will do is say with Estes means of this world is not what it says. He says, is there any God besides me. I know of none. What they do with a reinterpreted in such a way that is consistent with what they been so for them the ultimate authority is with the Mormon church tells them to believe with the question becomes how does a Mormon, no the Mormon church is true. If they say it's because they prayed about the book of Mormon.
And that's how they got there her knowledge because all say the Bible says in James 15 if you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, then there say that the Bible is the source of authority to which they went by which they learned that the book of Mormon is true and yet Joseph Smith said, is to the church volume 4, page 461 the book of Mormon was most critical. Convening on earth and man could get closer the precepts of God by following it invite any other book. But wait a minute. If that's the case, then that means that the Bible quarter there eighth article is, is not that accurate and it's been corrupted that the dictate can't trust it you can but you can't. Why would they go to the Bible to authenticate the book of Mormon which is more correct than the Bible does make any sense because they have to have a way of saying this is the ultimate source of truth, and upon this ultimate source of truth. That's how were resting our belief will they say, the ultimate source of truth is her testimony with and how they know that their subjective experience is correct because another's subjective experience which is contradictory to that then stands in opposition and both cannot be true.
So one's subjective experience of truth can't be the way of determining ultimate truth see once testimony is only a personal, subjective experience, it does not determine ultimate truth which is universal truth for everyone. It's only for themselves, so it's not the way by which you determine ultimate truth. If they say the book of Mormon is the ultimate truth. How do they know it's the book the book of Mormon is the ultimate truth, especially since been altered so much old boy has it it's been changed by the Mormon church thousands of times it happens all over the house.
They know it's true because they feel it's true then the back of their subjective experience if they say that their God is the ultimate truth will then how do they justify the ultimate truth that is true for everyone in their God, who is still learning and growing in wisdom because in Mormonism.
The God called Elohim, God the father is still growing in wisdom and learning. If he's growing in wisdom and learning.
That means you can't trust everything he says now because he might learn something that contradicts what he has now, he might gain more see more truth. He truths to use a very loose phrase. There, and therefore how would you know that your God has ultimate truth what he can't because if he's growing in his knowledge, then he cannot have ultimate truth know that's out of Jericho, Joseph Smith, journal discourses, volume 6, page 120 and God is increasing in knowledge. If he is increasing in knowledge, then he doesn't have the ultimate foundation of truth does not rest in him. If the Mormon wants to appeal to the Mormon God is his ultimate truth that he can't because ultimate truth doesn't rest in the Mormon God because he is increasing in knowledge so ultimate truth has to exist somewhere outside of the Mormon God.
But if that's the case, then that would mean whatever is the ultimate truth outside the Mormon God is greater then the Mormon God will then what is that God will do so. You know in Christian historic Christian biblical theology. The Trinity is not three gods but one eternal being who has never not existed. He's always existed as the one being there's not a plurality of intelligences out there that are eternal know our position is that there's one being the Trinity who exists is one entity, one being with three we call persons, not as a person like you and me with body of flesh and bones. Nope, it's a theologically significant work is self awareness. Awareness of others. The father speaks of this on the suspect of the father, etc. the attributes of personhood and in this we say that God the Trinitarian God is the ultimate that there is nothing beyond him. So only in Christian trinitarianism.
Can we then justify truth in Mormonism.
You can't justify truth, you can only think you have but if it's based on the Mormon God who is increasing in knowledge then there is no ultimate sense of truth with that God without an ultimate sense of truth foundation of truth.
You can't know anything for sure, and your testimony cannot be grounded in truth, it can only be grounded in subjective experience which is not universal truth. Therefore, the Mormon testimony is self refuting, because it causes doubt upon itself because you can't know if it's true because there's no ultimate foundation of truth, but the ultimate foundation of truth rests in the Christian critically chairing eternal home only Jerry and God. That is how we found you go for the Lord bless you by his grace back on here tomorrow you call that another program powered by the Truth Network