Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created both live and on YouTube. back some tinfoil hats. It'll be fun. Never been. I've researched UFOs for decades, so I figure it's time for me to go to a convention and see what happens, see what they're like. It'll be fun.

Anyway, so that's it. Hey, we have five open lines. Why don't you give me a call?

877-207-2276. Tomorrow night on ABN Sat TV, ABN Satellite TV. I'll be hosting two events, one on tomorrow night, one on Thursday night. We'll be discussing Islam. Women in Christianity versus women in Islam is going to be one of the topics. Is Mohammed prophesied in the Bible?

Yes, he is prophesied in the Bible as a false prophet. There's that. Let's see. We're waiting for callers to come in.

877-207-2276. Second week of June. That's right. Second week of June. That's right.

First week of June, second week. Yeah. I just lost my train of thought. Let's see. We're working on the schools.

Okay. Now, for those of you who are already signed up with the schools, we are in the process now of moving them over to a brand new system. It's going to take us a few weeks, and hopefully all the old information people sign up for will be ported over. If it's not, we'll just have to go in and manually add them.

It shouldn't be a big deal, but we have thousands, and hopefully it will just be imported over, and it should be fine. Either way, it is going to be a brand new system. We're going to be able to add all kinds of stuff and videos and graphics and all kinds of interesting information to those schools.

If you're interested in those, just go to schools.com.org, and you can sign up now if you want. We're going to be making them spiffy. Spiffy.

That's been in the works for a while. I already told you that Avian sat, and we have no callers waiting. I want you to give me a call. 877-207-2276. I'm being asked to be in a debate in September with a Unitarian, a Doctor of the Trinity, and other people want me to be in some debates.

I forgot what they are. I've got to get that settled. There you go. Also, we have prayer ministry. If you're interested in joining in the prayer ministry, all you've got to do is go to just email us. Prayeratkarm.org, and you can check that out. Regarding the Israel trip, everything is still on the go.

Everything is looking good. If you go to karmisrael.com, it will forward you to all of the relevant information. There's a website. I spent a half hour, 20 minutes on the phone with Eric Johnson. He's the guy who heads up the going there. He goes there a lot, so he really knows his stuff. He's been to Israel many, many times. I got to go with him about four or five years ago.

It was great, seriously. For those of you who are signed up, praise God, no problem. The Israel thing is not a problem. All the violence that did happen is down in the southern area. We don't even go near that. In our tours, we don't go near there. They're signing a one-year peace accord with Hamas. I'm not worried.

It doesn't bother me at all. You got to check it out. Check it out.

Just go to karmisrael.com and you can check that out. Also, if by any chance you find any problems with the KARM website, just email us at webmaster at karm.org and we can check it out. We also have the ability to broadcast on Facebook and Odyssey and Pinterest and YouTube and things like that. I've been thinking about doing something here for a while.

We finally got the bugs worked out among my many other projects. I'm interested in some feedback. I'm thinking about doing what's called a one-minute seminary where I do a one-minute video.

I try and get a video explaining what something is very quickly, very succinctly. That's it. Done. I'm going to do 30, 40, 50, 60, maybe 100 topics.

I don't know. I'm going to arrange them in a categorized setup. I want to educate people. I like doing things quick and slick. I like getting to the point. I've already practiced one and it turned out to be perfect for one minute.

I usually give answers in one quick minute, so quick and slick stuff. If you're interested in that, you could email me and go, hey, it sounds like a good idea. It'll be free. It's just going to be on the KARM website. We're not going to charge, of course. We want people to become equipped.

We want them to become equipped with the Word of God. There you go. Boy, a lot of stuff going on. Okay.

Four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Shirley from New Jersey.

Welcome. You're on the air. You there? Shirley. Hi, Matt. Can you hear me?

There we go. Now I hear you. How are you? I'm fine. Fine. Hanging in there.

Good. Just had a quick question for you. I've been an evangelist for quite a while. I'm firm on the pre-tribulation rapture. Just wanted to know what your thoughts were on pre-tribulation rapture versus mid-tribulation rapture versus post. Well, let's see. If you want me to have a dialogue on it, I don't see pre-trib in the Bible at all.

I am post-trib. I have stuff I could run by you very quickly to really shake you up, which is what I do to people if they want. If they don't, I won't. It's up to you. I'm open ears. Okay. Well, you know those verses.

Here, watch this. You know those verses that says two men in the field, one is taken, one is left, right? Yep. That's a rapture, right? Yeah.

No, it's not. It's not the rapture because the ones who are taken are the wicked. And when you go through the verses, like I go to, for example, Luke 17, 26, I'm going to read it to you. Just as it happened, days of Noah, so shall it be the days of the coming son of man, for they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all. So the ones who were being given in marriage and eating and all that were the wicked people, right? Okay. And it was the same as happened the day of Lot. They were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were sinned, et cetera. Lot went out and fire and brimstone came down and destroyed them.

Okay. And it says there'll be two men grinding, women grinding at the same place. One will be taken, the other will be left.

Two will be in one bed, one will be taken, the other will be left. And they ask him, where are they taken? And he answers, where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered. So now the rapture occurs. That's 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 through chapter 5, verse 2. But this verse in Luke 17 and also Matthew 24, 37, 36.

Okay. I'll read the parallel there. For the day Noah, no one knows, okay, for the coming of the son of man will be just like the days of Noah for in those days they were eating, they were drinking. Now this is the wicked people, right?

Right? They were marrying, giving in marriage until the flood, until that Noah entered the ark, they did not understand how the flood came and took them all away. So will be the coming of the son of man. Then there'll be two men in the field, one will be taken, one will be left. Two men, women will be grinding, one will be taken, one will be left. So who's taken? You tell me. The wicked.

I'm all open air. It's the wicked who were taken. What gets me is that people, and I'm going to show you something even more interesting. What gets me is that 100% of the time when I've shown people this over the years, when they read it, they come back to me, they go, yep, you're right, it's the wicked who were taken. 100% of the time. Why is it that pastors all over the place are reading these verses and saying it's pre-tribulation rapture when it has nothing to do with the rapture at all?

Just read the context. Well, we're saved by grace. We're saved in faith alone and we're sealed eternally according to Ephesians chapter 4 verses 30. So we're sealed eternally and we can never be plucked from the hands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Amen. And that would nullify post-tribulation rapture because in order to get through great tribulation, if we take the mark of the beast, we would not have eternal life. So that would nullify right there and then the seal that we have. Then you would be contradicting what Jesus said when he said he would lose none.

Because we have eternal life and we cannot be lost. Jesus says so in John 6, 37 through 40, the will of the Father is that Jesus, of all that the Father has given him, he lose none, but raise it up on the last day. So Jesus is saying he can't lose any. So therefore that scenario doesn't work. Here, let me show you something else, okay?

Watch this. So the parable of the wheat and the tares, right? You know, the wheat is the good and the tares are the bad and the field is the world, right? And then they're going to tear them up and Jesus says in the parable, no, don't do that. You might tear up the wheat also.

Matthew 13, 30. Allow both to go together until the harvest. In the time of the harvest, I will say to the reapers, first gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them. Gather the wheat in my barn. So according to Jesus, who's the first ones gathered?

I'm all ears, I'm listening. According to Jesus, I just read it. He says first gather up the tares. So who's the first ones gathered? The Christians or the wicked? The Christians.

Nope. Jesus says first gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up, but gather the wheat into my barn. The wheat are the Christians, the tares are the sons of the evil one. Jesus says in Matthew 13, 30, first gather up the tares.

So the first ones gathered are the tares. That's Jesus' word. I'm reading exactly. I can read any version you want and I can go to it.

There's the ESV. It also says in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 17 that those who are alive shall be caught up. And then that's pre-tribulation rapture.

No, no, no, no. That's not pre-tribulation rapture. That's just rapture.

That's just rapture. So you've got to be careful here that I show you a verse and then you go someplace else. You can't set scripture against scripture. And Jesus specifically said that the first ones gathered are the tares. Matthew 13, 30. And then he interprets the parable later. He says just as in 13, 40, so just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The son of man will send forth his angels and they'll gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness. So the wicked are taken out of his kingdom. But there's only one rapture.

What's that? How about the Holy Spirit restraining the full wickedness from coming in? It doesn't say that. It doesn't say the full wickedness. Second Thessalonians 2. It doesn't say that. And what I notice is I give you the information and you don't say anything, you don't comment about it, you just go someplace else.

Okay? Second Thessalonians 2 says he who now restrains. And in the Greek the restrain means to be taken out of the doorway. It does not mean to be removed. In the Greek what it implies is like I can be in a doorway and prevent someone from coming in and I can just stand in the doorway aside and allow it to go through, allow a person to go through.

So it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is not there. We've got a break. Hold on.

We've got a break. Hold on. Okay. I'm going to talk to you about this some more.

Find your best stuff. Let's see. And I'll ask you some more questions.

Okay. Hey folks we'll be right back after these messages. We have three open lines 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the show. We have three open lines if you want to give me a call.

877-207-2276. Shirley you still there? I guess I am. Okay. Can I read you some more stuff? It'll really mess you up some more if you want.

Oh no, I'm not messed up. I'm confident in what I believe in. I believe that we are the saints. We believe in Jesus Christ. So we are actually spared from the wrath of the world. We're not spared from the wrath of the world, but God is not going to pour his wrath on the virgin bride of his son.

We're the wife of his son. But where's it say that? So we're fully redeemed children. So the temples were basically temples in which the Father, Son, Holy Spirit dwells. So it wouldn't make sense for him to pour his wrath on himself. So like I was saying before. Wait a second. He did pour wrath out on himself on the cross. Okay. But do you have a verse that says that we're not going to go through anything?

Yes. 1 Thessalonians 5-9. For God has not appointed us to wrath. But to salvation.

Right? I'm sorry. Because that verse, it's one that they use, you know, that we use all the time. They'll say, you know, we're not appointed to wrath but salvation. That's what the verse says. Wrath is damnation versus salvation. We're not appointed to wrath but salvation. It's not wrath about a tribulation. It's wrath juxtaposed with salvation. It's talking about damnation and salvation. That's not what the verse says. It says wrath period.

Nothing added above it. Before or after it. 2 Thessalonians 5-9.

We're not appointed to wrath period. 5-9. Okay.

What version are you using? King James Version. Oh, okay. Let me go to the King James. 2 Thessalonians 5-9.

I think it's 5. 1 Thessalonians 5-9. Yeah. God has not, I'm reading it. For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Great. So, that's what it is. It's wrath is juxtaposed with salvation. Wrath is damnation.

That's what it is. Okay. If the church were still on the earth during the tribulation, there would be no need for the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7. Who says so? Who says so? Revelation 11.

The 144,000 are male virgin Jews. So just because we're here. Absolutely. And they'll be preaching to God.

But there's nothing the Bible says the Christians can't be here and they can be here. There's nothing that says that. Absolutely. To say. No. To the Greek. No. To the what? Absolutely. In 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, 15-18, if you translate the Quod op, snatch away, that's the harpazo of the church.

The church is the bride, the wife of the son. Yeah. I agree. And can I read that with you? Read that section? Sure. Okay. Now you're in the King James, right? Sure, yeah. Now this is 1 Thessalonians, you want to go to 4, 16, 2 chapter 5 verse 2, there's no chapter breaks. You know about that, right?

In the Greek. I know. Okay.

Still learning. That's alright. It says, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, and the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This is a rapture, no problem. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write to you, for you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. So the rapture is the day of the Lord that cometh like a thief in the night, right? The day of Christ. The day of the Lord is the second coming. The day of Christ is the rapture. There you go. And so we would know then, and I'm sure you believe in premillennialism, that there's going to be a pre-tribulation rapture, seven years, and then Christ returns, then a thousand year reign, and then a new heavens and new earth after the thousand years, right?

Right. Now if you go to 2 Peter 3, 10, but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be melted with fervent heat. So 2 Peter 3, 10 says the day of the Lord cometh like a thief in the night, which the Bible says is also the rapture, is the same day. The day of Christ and the day of the Lord are two different things. The day of the Lord is the second coming of Jesus Christ. It says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, right?

Right? And it says, and that's the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, it's the King James, 2 Peter 3, 10, and the phrase is also in 1 Peter, I mean, excuse me, 1 Thessalonians 5, 2, when it's talking about the rapture. You yourself know that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. The same phrase, the day, one day.

Now I've got a question for you. You've been taught stuff, and I've shown you that two men in the field, one is taken, one is left, is not the rapture. The rapture does occur, but that's not the rapture, because the wicked are the ones taken. I've shown you from Matthew 13, 30, the first ones taken are the wicked, not the good. These are the words of Jesus. And now I'm showing you that when the rapture occurs, it comes like a day of the Lord cometh like a thief in the night. The same phrase is used, the day of the Lord cometh like a thief in the night of the new heavens and new earth. How can there be a thousand year reign in between them? I would like to scrutinize that verse, that's a good point that you made. Okay, that's fair. But in 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 7, 8, when it's talking about the antichrist, it can't be revealed until the restrainer is removed.

Who is that restrainer? Some people think it's the Holy Spirit, some people think it's the church. And if you read verse 3, there must be the apostasy coming. And so the apostasy has to come first, before the antichrist can be revealed, so the Christian church has to go apostate.

So some think it might, they'll say, oh, it's the Christian rapture, and that's why there's nobody left, that's why the apostasy comes. But nothing in there says that. Because it says you have to watch for these things. Who is the restrainer?

What's that? Who is the restrainer? Some say it's a church, some say it's the Holy Spirit, we don't know for sure. Till he who is taken out of the way is probably the Holy Spirit. But it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit's not there. Because, by definition, the Holy Spirit is God, who has to be everywhere all the time.

He can't not be there. Right, but maybe, okay, so you're either, you said the restrainer might be the Holy Spirit or the church, is that correct? It's probably the Holy Spirit, okay. But yeah.

Okay. So if the Holy Spirit is removed, and it indwells in the believers, that means that we're not gonna be, we're gonna, we're not gonna be here during the rapture, during the revelation. Who says so? You see, you're just, all you're doing is trying to make it fit pre-trib rapture.

There's nothing that you have said. No, I'm just reading it straight out of the Bible. The antichrist says the Holy Spirit as well, and all certain believers, restrains the antichrist. Who is the antichrist? The church.

Well, if it's the church, we're the bride, we're not gonna be here. If it's the Holy Spirit, then it has to be the power behind the Holy Spirit that's not gonna be here as well. Then how come the wicked are taken first, according to Matthew 13, 30, according to Jesus? Were the wicked taken to? To the place of judgment. Okay. When does the judgment occur? The last day, at the end of the age.

Okay. After revelation, I think it's three or four, the church is no longer present. So all those seals and judgments will be poured out on the bride of Christ, and supernaturally protected? You must be careful, and don't assume that the book of Revelation is chronological. Plus, you have to be careful, because just because the church as you think isn't mentioned, which isn't the case, it is mentioned, the prayers of the saints, that is the church, to go up, and that's later on. But just don't make the mistake of thinking that because something isn't mentioned later on, it's not included, because justification by faith is not mentioned in the later epistles. You gotta be careful. I would suggest you actually look at these, and don't read into the text, but actually see what it says.

And you can start with two men in the field, what is taken, because it's not the rapture. Check it out, okay? We gotta go, because it's a break. Talk to you later, Shirley Kay. Okay, thanks, Bob. Thanks, sir. Okay, bye-bye. God bless.

All right, folks. Two open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back, everyone. Two open lines, if you wanna give me a call.

877-207-2276. Mark from Virginia. Welcome, you're on the air. Hey, welcome, Matt. Hey, thanks.

Appreciate your ministry. A lot of things I agree with you on. I mean, I think you and I have a lot of similar desires.

I mean, logic, physics, political type leanings, I think we line up real well. I got a couple really good physics and religious intertwined books that later I can email them to you. They're very good, very heavy, very interesting. I like that stuff.

Okay, so what do you got? Yeah, so yesterday, you had a caller, the last caller of the day, I believe. And like your previous caller, it got kind of extended, which it's good. It's good to have that debate dialogue. I think there was one point that I was a little hesitant to side with you on that I forget the caller's name, but I know it's about the salvation. And he made a point in Matthew about be aware not to lose your body and your soul. And I apologize, I'm driving, so I don't have a quote with me.

But if you could read that quote, that would help set the table to where my mind was going. Yeah, he said, beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Right.

Yep. So who was Jesus talking to? Oh, I'm not exactly sure. I'm just saying find the verse. I think it's maybe 2546, or is it? No, it's not Matthew.

I got a tip of my tongue, I've got a tip of my tongue. It's, I'll find it in a sec. And I apologize, I should have had it written down. It's all right. It's all right. Both body. Whoops, if I spelled both right, it might help. Okay.

And both destroy. Oh, man. Okay, so anyway, I'll see if I can find it. I don't know if anybody else has got it before me. I have a lot of verses memorized, but don't have them all. So it does take time sometimes. So I'm looking forward, but anyway, go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, so it's kind of key. I'm wondering who Jesus was referring to. Who was he, who was he warning? Who do you think he was warning to beware? I thought, find a context here, because there's different verses about it. And I want to say it's the one with the verse 28 at the end of it, but I don't know. No, I can't find it.

Maybe someone in the text will find it. Well, in general. Yeah. In general. I don't know. I don't want to say.

Until. Gotcha. Okay. Because I just don't know.

Body and soul. Do you think he was referring to talking to those who were saved or those who were lost? I don't know. I mean, he was warning.

I mean, he was trying to offer advice, right? Okay. I want to find it so I can give you an answer. Let's see. I know what I'm going to do. Hold on a sec.

It's Matthew 10, 28. There I go. I knew that was it. There it is. 10. Yeah, I thought it was 10 or 11.

I knew it had a 28 in it. Uh, here we go. So, um, thank you. Uh, let's see, Bobby in the chat room, the meaning of discipleship. So Jesus summoned his 12 disciples. Yup.

And 12, he sent them out. Okay. Beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Okay. So he's talking to his disciples. Yup. Right. Right. So, I mean, he was talking to all his disciples that at least were there present, correct? It would seem so.

And is it possible to lose something that you don't have? No. Okay. No. It wouldn't seem so. I mean, I mean, and logically, I mean, you're a logitician.

I mean, you appreciate logic. Yeah. But yeah, you and I agree that you probably can't lose something that you don't have. He's warning someone that has something not to lose it. Who says he's warning them not to lose it? He says, well, just fear those in them to be aware. Right. He says, fear him. Who's able to destroy both body and soul in hell.

You should rightly fear God and the awe sense. Okay. And his disciples and the group there and not all of his disciples were saved.

There were, you know, as Judas was as evidenced. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. From the beginning, he wasn't saved. John 6 63. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It just seems like that one verse means that you can be saved, but you can be lost as well. Right. Well, if that's the case. You got to be aware.

You're warned. If that's the case that you could be saved and then be lost, then that would mean Jesus lost some and Jesus says you can't lose any. So it's a problem. Well, your inference is that he can't lose any, but he can lose people that don't come to him.

Is that not correct? No, because he says in John 6 37, all that the father gives me will come to me. And the ones who come to me certainly will. Did Judas not come to him? No, it says, I've gone over this so many times in this pericope of verses. John 6 37, all that the father gives me will come to me. So it's not, it will. Right.

And the, and the father, if that father will, there is grace. Correct. But in that Matthew verse 11, it's clearly saying that if you have something, beware, be warned not to lose that something.

Okay. He doesn't say that. You're reading into the text. Well, I'm reading into it just as much as you read into no one knows the day because you may, because anecdotally you think it's about a wedding feast. It is about a wedding feast. That's historical context.

That's what's going on. Where in the Bible does it state that? It doesn't say that the wedding feast is the last thing. It doesn't say that.

Really? Okay. So why are you, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Don't ask me a bunch of questions and don't expect me to answer them and then keep talking. But you ask me questions and I'm just answering them. Okay.

Tell you what we'll do. We'll move along. If someone's going to be rude like that, then we'll just move along. If he wants to call back another time when he could be more polite, then that's fine. I was going to show him that you don't have to have everything revealed in scripture to understand certain things. For example, the Samaritan, the good Samaritan, what it meant in the culture.

That's when you understand the severity of the good Samaritan and things like that. And so I can get into this stuff, but when people become combative like that, I don't want to discuss it with them. So you can call back. You can be polite next time and stuff like that. Let's get to Pearl from Rockville, Virginia. Pearl, welcome.

You're on the air. Thank you, sir. You're a very learned man, and I'm not just saying that to build you up. You're a human being, but God has given you a great mind. And I was just wondering, since 2 Corinthians 5, 18 says, all things are of God, do you think that it's possible that God Almighty, who is un-created, un-created, could have allowed Lucifer to fall? Of course he did. To be his greatest servant? Well, he certainly allowed him to fall, and I wouldn't say his greatest servant because a servant does the will of his master. And Lucifer is not doing the will of the Father in one sense. Now I have to introduce a little bit of theology at this point. There's what's called the decorative will, prescriptive will, and permissive will of God. The decorative will of God is he decrees something to be it's going to occur because he has said so, like let there be light. He decrees creation. He commands it. It is his direct will.

It occurs. His prescriptive will is you shall not lie. You shall not steal. His permissive will is he lets you lie.

He lets you steal. So he has a prescriptive will, which is the moral right and wrong he wants us to follow, but he wills to allow us. He desires to allow us to disobey him. So Lucifer fell because of his own pride.

That's Isaiah 14, 12-14 talks about that. But sir, how could he have fallen if God had not allowed him to do it? Of course he allowed him to do it. God is almighty. Of course he allowed him.

I don't mean to sound vindictive, but God is God, and I think that he can do anything anytime to any extent he wants to. That's correct. Is that correct?

That's correct. God allowed Satan to fall. It was God's will to allow him to fall, and he did. Right. And he's using the sin of Satan for his greater good.

Well, this is what I thought. You know, like Romans 8, 28, God is able to make all things work together for good to those who love the Lord. And I just wondered if you thought, because I really do believe that God allowed Lucifer to fall so that he could use him as one of his greatest servants.

I wouldn't say servant because, in this greatest servant, because the word servant in the Bible has different meanings, different context in here, but he is certainly using the sin of Satan to accomplish his greater good. Okay? That's what I would go with. All right? Well, we're saying the same thing in a different way. Kind of.

Or not. Try to be more precise. All right, we've got a break, so we've got to go. Okay, Pearl? All right. Okay, thank you, sir. Bye bye.

God bless. All right, three open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back, everyone. Hey, let's get to Eric from Canada.

Eric, welcome. You're on the air. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Hello?

Yes, I hear you fine. Yeah. Oh, good. I'm going back to Matthew 10-28, where it says to destroy. When it's destroyed, that means totally annihilate in the Greek.

No, it doesn't. Well, the Greek word is apollumi. Yeah, it's apollumi. Apollumi.

Okay. Destroyed fully. And apollumi has a semantic domain. It occurs in the New Testament, and I have happened to have studied every single instance of its occurrence. It can mean a cessation of biological life only, okay? The demon-possessed boy, for example, the dying of prodigal son, was dying of starvation. And we're dying is what was, is apollumi.

It could mean cessation of biological and possibly spiritual life. The exact meaning is not specified in John 17-12. He says, keeping in your name, I guarded them and not one perished.

That's apollumi, but the son of perdition. Well, what does it mean, perished? People who are lost but still alive. The lost sheep, people, the sheep of Israel who are still alive.

Matthew 15-24, okay? Jesus says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That means the people of Israel, that's the word apollumi, and they're lost but they're still alive. And lost coins, lost sheep and lost coins, they're still alive and they're apollumi. So, you can't just say it means to be destroyed in non-existence, okay? That's what I was getting at, because someplace says in the Bible that they've burned forever in hell, and here it says they can be destroyed. To me, destroyed, in the Greek that I've got here, it says, it's apollumi.

There's many words that are translated. I've written 182 articles on annihilationism. 182 articles, and if you're interested, you can go check them out. I mean, I've done a great deal of research on this, on these things. And the annihilationism position is simply wrong. Flat out wrong. Okay, it is. Okay, I didn't know.

Oh yeah, it's wrong. Good, I take your word for it, because I haven't studied it at all. A buddy of mine is writing a book of how the word hell and Hades and Kahana have all been interpreted as wrong.

And Tartarus. He says, when we're destroyed in hell, there'll be total destruction, you're gone. You're no longer, yeah. Yeah, he's incorrect.

He's incorrect. So there are different words for destroy. Apoleo, apollumi, diiferro, there's exilithret uo, catastrophe, luo, olethros, pth, it's a hard one to pronounce, porceo, sumtrima, tephro, these are words, those are just the Greek words, and I've studied every single one of them.

And I have articles, like for example, apollumi, used there in Matthew 10.28, and I have every single one listed in an outline form under categories, and then I have a table of every single occurrence, with the word in the Greek, in green, so you can see it. Good. So this program will be online until tomorrow, I guess, right?

You can watch it again and again, so. Yeah, and you know, the idea, let me tell you one quick thing. Ask your friend this. God bless you. Hold on, I'm going to get one more thing before you go.

Are you still there? I want to ask your friend something. He's going to say that the persons are destroyed in hell. Find out if he also says that once you die physically that the human ceases to exist, or goes into soul sleep.

Find that out, because that, I can show you from other, if you call me back later and tell me what his answer is, I can show you why that's a huge problem, a very big problem. Well, I believe when a Christian dies, we go sleep in the grave like we go to sleep at night, and then we wake up again, because when you go to sleep at night, you wake up right away, like morning. Nope, nope. To be absent from the bodies, to be home with the Lord, 2 Corinthians 5 8. That's what we do. We go straight to be with the Lord Jesus. We're conscious, and we're awake. Okay?

That's what happens. All right? Okay.

Thank you so much, and I'll be watching and listening to your show a lot now. All right. Well, good. God bless.

Any questions? Okay. God bless you. All right, you too. Okay, bye-bye.

Okay. All right, let's get to Shirley from New Jersey. Shirley, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi. Hi.

Hi, Matt. Yeah, I was just on the line with you before. I had another question for you.

Sure. In the book of Revelation, chapter 16, the verse, I would say the whole book, practically, verses 1 through 21, do you agree that God is pouring his judgment and his wrath? Yeah, it's on the earth. And you'll also notice that people, Christians, went through all kinds of judgments of God. The people in Noah's Ark went through the judgment. And Lot was taken out of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he was still in the region because it wasn't just Sodom and Gomorrah that were destroyed, but all the surrounding cities. He was brought safe out of that city.

He was still there in the area when they were destroyed. Okay, so we both agree that it is actually the judgment and the wrath that's being poured. The question is, who is God pouring his wrath on? Is it an unbelieving world or a believing and unbelieving world?

It's the world physical. And the thing is that a lot of people don't understand, they think, and this does politely, it aggravates me, because of what it's done to the church. The idea that God's not going to let Christians suffer, and that's just not true.

Yeah, that's not my question, Matt. We all suffer. There's cancer, some people have, I mean, they get shot because of being Christians. And persecution. And persecution, beheading, whatever. That's good to go.

We're good to go. We believe in Jesus. That's not the issue. I just want to know, in the book of Revelation, who is that wrath being poured on? Is it the believers that believe in Jesus Christ, the unbelievers, or both? I would have to know the exact verses you're talking about. Revelation 16 verses 1 through 21.

Well, it's hard to read that, but it looks like it's coming down. Some people, why can't we read all the verses right now and tell you? But a lot of times, as I've read commentaries and stuff about Revelation over the years, it looks like it's the wicked who are going to be destroyed, the serpents, those things that come up that could sting them for five months, they suffer. It's not going to be on the believers, because it's a spiritual thing. The Christians are going to be here. Okay, so the second question is, we do know that he will be pouring his wrath on the unbelieving world, so is he also pouring his wrath on the believers, yes or no?

No, it's not a yes or no. You see, he's pouring his wrath on the unbelieving world, and we are going to be involved with that and have to flee to the mountains and run and hide and things like that, as he warns people, when the judgment of God comes upon the world. Okay, so we are going to be supernaturally protected? To some degree.

I don't know to what degree, who and how and what exactly, but we're going to be here. That is totally against the Bible. No, it's not. Totally against the Bible.

No, it's not. Because we are not appointed to wrath. It is totally against the Bible.

Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. You just said we're not appointed to wrath. Yeah. Second Thessalonians 5 verse, that is, right? Second Thessalonians 5, 9, right?

Absolutely. He has not appointed us to wrath but for obtaining salvation. What does wrath mean in context of not wrath but salvation? What's the wrath mean? Wrath is Jesus is angry on an unrepentant world that refuses and rejects the finished redemptive work of his work on the cross. Surely, surely I asked you about first Thessalonians 5, 9, for God has not destined us for wrath but for obtaining salvation. Wrath is damnation because it's juxtaposed with salvation. You're not getting the verse. You took it out of its context. I get the verse.

It's very simple. We are not appointed to wrath. To damnation.

That's what it's talking about. That's the wrath that's juxtaposed for salvation. We're not appointed to that.

We're not destined to that. Acts 13, 14. Right, and what is the wrath of God? Judgment. You're not listening.

You're not listening. The word wrath is not tribulation stuff or tribulation stuff. It's damnation. We're not appointed by God for damnation but for salvation. The verse can't be used for what you're... Exactly.

So it can't be used for that. It doesn't mean we're not going to go through tribulation. Just as the people during Nero's time were burned and then they went through a very hard tribulation period and they were in it. Right. Yeah, but we are not appointed to the wrath because it's a rejecting world and the second half of the tribulation is made of trouble. We're not appointed to damnation.

You keep... It's not done. It's Jacob's struggle because God has to return his attention back to Israel. He doesn't deal with two wives that time. Surely.

Surely. You keep ignoring what the verse says. You refuse to listen to what it says. That verse is not about rapture. It's not about tribulation period. It's about damnation. God juxtaposes... How do you know that? Where does it say that in the verse? Because I'm trying to tell you that what God does is juxtapose things in many places. For example, he says in Isaiah 45.7, he says the one forming light and creating darkness, the one forming well-being and creating calamity. So the methodology of God is to juxtapose good and bad, light and darkness, wrath, salvation. So this is what he's doing. Now, I've got a question for you, okay?

Sure. Because you believe that the rapture is going to occur, and you believe it's going to be pre-tribulation rapture, right? That's what you believe. Now, I did this earlier on this show... That's what the Bible says. No, it's not what the Bible says. It's not what the Bible says. Let me read something to you.

Absolutely does. No, it's not. Let me read it. Let me read this to you, Shirley.

Let me read this to you. Jesus says, Matthew 13.30, allow both to go together till the harvest. This is the wheat and the tares, okay? The wheat and the tares. Let me get the verse so I can write it down.

Actually, that's a good point you made. Let me get that verse. Matthew 13.30. Matthew 13. Verse 30.

Read the context after the show. The wheat are the good and the tares are the bad, people. And the harvest is the end of the age. Read the whole chapter. You'll see Jesus interprets it.

This is what he says. Allow both to go together till the time of the harvest. And the time of the harvest, I'll say to the reapers, first gather up the tares.

And bind them in bundles. Gather the wheat to the barn. Who's the first ones gathered according to Jesus? The Christians or the unbelievers? Hold on.

I'm writing this down. Matthew 13.30. First one gathered, according to you, he said it's the wicked.

Is that correct? According to Jesus, first gather up the tares and bind them in the bundles. That's what it says. Okay.

I'm reading it to you. First, gather up the tares. So the first ones gathered are the wicked. Okay. So if it's pre-tribulation rapture, how does the wicked get gathered before the good deal?

And also, you might want to check this. Two men in the field, one is taken, one is left, right? That's the rapture, right? Can you give me that Bible verse? Yeah, it's Matthew 24.37 and Luke 17. Matthew 24 and Luke 17. The ones taken are the wicked.

Go check it out. Call me back tomorrow. Matthew 24 verses 17. Matthew 24.36 and Luke, or is it 26?

36. Matthew 24.36. You just find out where it says two men in the field, one is taken, one is left.

The ones who are taken are the wicked. Got to go. Out of time. Call back tomorrow. Folks, sorry about that. We're out of time. God bless. This is a program powered by the Truth Network.