Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at CARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, how you doing?

It's me, Matt Slick, listening to Matt Slick live. Boy, I'll tell you, what a day. Busy day, busy day, and I hope you're not having too busy a day.

That's all right, though. Hey look, if you want to give me a call, all you gotta do is dial 877-207-2276. Oh boy, we have a lot of calls that we normally get towards the end of the show, so if you want to disperse them up a little bit early, then please give me a call. All right, a couple of things.

One is that we're going to Israel. Just letting you know that this week is the last week to get $100 off if you sign up. Hopefully you want to go. Let me just tell you, it is a lot of fun. It is great. I'm looking forward to going again. A few years ago, it really changes your outlook on the Scriptures when you get to say to people, you get to kind of brag, you know, hey, yeah, I went to the well that Jesus was at in John 4, you know, and I went to Masada and I went to museums. It's a lot of fun. It's really good, so I enjoy it, and you get a little bragging rights. That's good stuff, too.

All right, so 877-207-2276. So a guy named Ernie and I spent some time on the phone today, and we discussed some Facebook stuff, so I just want to let you guys know that we do have Matt Slick Live Facebook, and you can go there and you can check out the show. I think we normally have the show broadcast on there. It's also on CARM, and we do it on some other ones as well, so that's an option for you to watch. You can also watch on YouTube, and the information there is on the home page of CARM, even modifying the home page and the navigation. I think we finally got it down. You can check it out and see what you think of the navigation.

If you like it, don't like it. We're trying to make it so simple that, like it was before, that it's just an easy site to use, and we get a lot of stuff coming, a lot of stuff we're going to be doing, and we're hoping that it works out really well and that you enjoy it. So let us know what you think of that, and that's CARM.org. Also, I just want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support. If you are interested in supporting us, you can go to CARM.org forward slash donate. I just want to let you know that it's a privilege to be able to serve God in your support of various ministries and churches and things like that, and if you think CARM is worth it, if you think that CARM is a worthwhile effort, and you get fed, please consider supporting us because we could use it. We do stay on the air by your support, and I don't like to talk about it very often, but I will just let you know that we could, let's just put it this way.

How do I say it politely? We definitely could use your support. Summer times are usually slow, and we need that support. If you'd be so kind as to consider going in, signing for $5, $10 a month, something like that, one-time gift, whatever, it really does help us to make budgets and to know what to do and when to do it. So I just let you know it's a privilege to be able to serve God, and there's a verse where I'm going to find it during a break probably, where God says, where David says that he is building the temple, and he says, Lord, it's from your hand that we give back to you.

I love that verse. I've got to find it again, the address, and tell it where it is. Four Open Lines, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to John from Florida. Hey, John, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, God bless you, my boy. Thank you. Now, I don't remember your memory, but I called in for some advice. My brother and his wife, they opened up a church, and you know how both of them are pastors, and we tried to confront them about women pastors and stuff like that.

Well, recently, I guess me and my wife, including my mom, well, we actually had a full conversation with them over the phone because they live in Texas and we're from Florida, but we decided to just lay it up front, you know, what the Bible says, but we believe that they're, in fact, in rebellion against God. Good. Yeah, and they ended up saying we're just going to have to cut loose or like cease, I don't know, like interaction or relationship, like take a break, basically. That's fine. That's fine. So you say, yeah, we agree that we'll be glad to separate because you're denying the truth of God's word and we're not going to fellowship with someone who's going to openly be in rebellion against God's truth.

Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, and so since they don't want anything to do with us for now, and we said our part, now, do we just like, if they ever happen to contact us in the future, do we just keep at them or we just don't mention anymore, just leave it at that? Well, look, if they were in sin, if they were living together in sin, would you just say, hey, it's okay, don't worry about it? See, your brother, I think you said it was, was your brother, right?

Yeah, my brother and his wife. Yeah, they are in rebellion against God and it's appropriate for you to tell them that they're in rebellion against God, and they are by having a woman pastor. They shouldn't do that. It's against Scripture, and he's not qualified to be a pastor if he's going to affirm that position. He's just not qualified, period. He's not able to discern truth from error. As a elder, a pastor is an elder, and he's not doing his job.

She is usurping the position that's meant for the male, and they're both in rebellion against God. So you can just pray that God would open up their hearts and their minds, and what will probably happen is because they're submitting the word of God to their feelings, they'll probably move into more and more error in other areas. They'll probably start listening and approving of Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, you know, probably. The thing is that that's all the people that they listen to, and that's exactly what they are.

Yeah, heresy likes company. Let me tell you, those people, what they do is they get revelation knowledge. God told me, I'm going to tell you what God told me, and all this idiocy that they say, and people who are so gullible believe it. Oh, God's talking to that person up there.

I've got to give them money. No, no, no. I'd be like, excuse me, show me that scripture where God speaks to you, where what you give from God is what's for the church. Are you an apostle? Are you a prophet? Let's hear it.

No, no, no, no. One of the last things they said to me was, well, I'm not going to listen to you nor your opinions. I'm going to listen to God, and I'm going to do what he told me to do.

Really? What God told him to do is in contradiction to scripture? No, we told him that, but again, they're told, well, we're not going to be obedient to man or anybody, but we're going to be obedient to what God told us to do. Well, if you can do what God told them to do, then one thing you can do is contact them and say, I'm asking you to give me a reason for what you say is biblical to have a woman pastor from scripture.

Please show it to me. And if you don't do it, you're denying 1 Peter 3.15 to give an answer to everyone who would ask you. Yeah, I told them, man, they always bring up, well, you have to look at Esther, you have to look at Deborah. Deborah was not a pastor of a church. Deborah was not an elder of a church.

She was a judge in ancient Israel. It's a different thing. If they bring that kind of thing up, they couldn't exegete their way out of a wet paper bag if the bag was pointing downhill and they had arrows pointing out and there was oil on the bottom and they could slide out.

They'd still have trouble. That's what I told them as well. You have to look at the context of when Paul was saying it at the time.

That's right. And they know the context, which is why Paul says that it's not a contextual area from the culture because he tied it with the created order of God before the fall. So there you go out of 1 Timothy 2, 12, and 13. I've heard all these arguments, and they're lame, they're stupid, they're weak, and these people are not qualified to be in ministry. They need to shut up and sit down, and they need to sit under somebody who can teach them. They need to stop listening to those heretics like Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Rodney Howard Brown. They need to stop listening to these wackos who don't know what it means to teach biblical theology at any real deep level and who couldn't defend it. I've challenged them, and right now I challenge Osteen, I challenge Joyce Meyer, I challenge Kenneth Copeland, I challenge them to have a polite public debate on this issue of positive confession, this revelatory knowledge you guys get, and Jesus going to hell and paying the atonement price there. Public challenge, and you know what? They never accept. I've offered, I've tried to contact these people. They don't want to touch anybody who can argue with them from God's word. They're charlatans.

Yeah. Now, I guess in the future-wise, do we just keep telling the same thing, or do we just, we already told our peace, and we just, or what should I do? Well, me, you know, with my brother started a church with his wife. I'd still be cordial with him, but I'd say, I'm sorry, I can't join you in your church. I can't join you in your heresy. I can't support you in it. You're still my brother, still love you, but I'm not going to be supporting you in any way, shape, or form in your rebellion against God. And you need to repent. I'll be praying for you, that God would be merciful to you.

And there's two things. God will either judge you by killing you, or judge you by giving you over to the gravity of your heart and your mind so you believe these lies. This is a serious- I mean, actually, it kind of worries me, because, it kind of worries me, because you would think that, you know, because the Holy Spirit guides us to our truth, and we're supposed to feel conviction in these things, and make known what the word God actually says. You know, it kind of worries me that, you know, they still haven't, they don't see clear- No, they won't. Because they're submitting the Scriptures to their personal desires.

That's what they're doing. The Scriptures clearly say, a woman is not to be in that position. I've written a great deal on it. I've debated it a lot over the years, and I've offered- Here goes again. Anybody want to debate me on this? Does anybody want to accept a challenge? Not just some guy, you know, off the street, some pastor of a church, somebody, some ranking, somebody. You want to debate me on what the Bible actually says about women pastors and elders. And I say, it's not for women. I mix it in right now. And I've done this every now and then over the years.

I never get anyone accepting. And I know why. Because the topic would be, does the Bible support women pastors and elders?

And they're going to have to say, yes it does. And I'd rip them to shreds. Biblically. Politely.

But I'd do it. This is a serious issue. It's a black eye on masculinity. It's a black eye on biblical theology in the Christian church. When women become pastors and elders, it's because men aren't signing up and doing their job and saying, enough of this. We need to stand up and start being men in the Christian church. In a loving, godly way, these are being men. And start teaching and preaching according to what God wants. Not have women be in the position that God did not make them for. When he specifically says, through Paul the apostle, that women are not to teach or exercise authority over men, but remain silent. For Adam was first created. This is the admonition of Paul in 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13. And in 1 Timothy 3, 15, the next chapter over, he says he's giving instruction on how to behave and operate in the church, which is a household of God. That's what he says.

So they are rebelling against God. Flat out. Hey, hold on, we've got a break, okay buddy? Okay.

Okay. Hey folks, you want some more of this? Keep listening if you want to join me.

All you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show.

That's right, Matt's rant. Women pastors is one of the issues. And I'm going to tell you folks, I don't have anything against women. I'm just telling you, this is what the Bible says, and I've seen what happens when people go against God's word. 80% of churches and denominations that adopt women pastors, 80% within two generations start adopting pro-homosexual issues.

And it's bad news. Come on, men, stand up and be godly men in your homes and in your churches and don't put up with this idiocy. Politely study the word. You're supposed to study the word. I've got to teach people how to do that. Anyway, there you go, John. This is one of the trigger things that I react to. I have one more question real quick.

Sure. Ever since that conversation and they stopped talking to us, they've been making posts. Should I keep quiet? Because I know it's indirect before this, but it says they talk about dead weight and they talk about be careful of talkative relationships because it can actually stop you from progressing to what God wants you to do. And the irony in what she says is that silence and discernment are key when it comes to talking to others what God wants you to do.

I know that's indirect where it does. Should I just keep trying and just pray for them? You should be praying for them and then at the right opportunities you ask God to try and get through to him and tell him. Tell him there's a radio guy who's challenged anybody to a debate on this. Tell him, hey, you want a debate? You want to go on the radio show and debate? You want to have a public debate? This is a serious issue. It really is a serious issue, and it's horrible. Well, if you ever talk to me, I'm going to try to convince them to debate you on that thing because even though they don't like debates for nothing, I'm going to see if I can get them to do that.

I like to see that. Yeah, we'll see if they can back up what they're doing by Scripture. I'm telling you, they can't, which is why they won't want to do it, which is why I've never had anybody accept a debate on this issue.

I've been doing radio for 16 years, five days a week. I've not had anybody accept a debate on this. So why?

Because they read the Bible and don't want to debate something they know they're not going to win, and yet they'll continue to do it. It just drives me crazy. It does. All right, buddy? All right, man. Thank you, man. All right, God bless.

We have two open lines, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Terry from North Carolina. Terry, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt Slick. I hope you're doing well. I got a question here, and I don't know. I've heard a lot of people say a lot of different things about it, but maybe I can get your take on it. In Genesis, I don't know which book it is there in Genesis that says, re-plemish the earth. Why would it, you know, re- means something that does it again, I guess. And what's your take on that? It's unfortunate that that translation or that idea came out. It came out in Genesis 1.28, and let me see what the King James says.

Okay. I believe that's where the problem lies on the King James. Yeah, inside of the King James, to re-plemish. This is why I tell people, you know, go to a modern translation.

The King James is fine. It's got problems, but if you don't know where the problems are, then these kinds of problems will arise. And to re-fill the earth, re-plemish the earth, that's not what's going on.

It's unfortunate. So what we have here is milu is the Hebrew word. And what it means is, I'm looking at a lexicon. It says to fulfill, to consecrate, to accomplish. It said to replenish seven times holy time set, expired, fully, twice gather, overflow, satisfy.

It has a wide variety of meanings. The problem here, when the King James went to this, the idea of re-plemish the earth, this implication is that it was already filled with stuff, and then it was all wiped out, and then they had to do it again. And then this gives rise to the gap theory, and it gives rise to other things like Lilith before Eve.

It gives rise to a bunch of heresies and a bunch of problems. And so all it does is to fill the earth. I believe that. It just means to fill the earth, not refill it. That's all that it means. All right, and so when I look, go ahead.

I'm sorry. I talked to a pastor, and he told me, he said, yeah, I don't believe the earth is much older. He said he thought the earth was much older than 6,000 years, and that there was a bunch of people here before, and all these sort of things, and I just thought it sounded kind of weird to me. And yeah, I just wanted someone like you to tell me, maybe give a little bit more of an answer.

It looked like to me he's going to. Right, he's off base. He's way off base, and he's potentially a dangerous preacher because of the other errors that usually are associated with it. What we have in America is a famine of good biblical theology in a lot of pulpits. People are too frequently desiring to reach out to the lost instead of equipping the body of Christ. The church's purpose, the gathering and the worship and things like that, adoration, is for the Christian church to receive communion, to do baptism, and for the pastor as opposed to work to equip the Christians for the work of ministry. It's not aimed at satisfying the unbelievers and have unbelievers come in. That's not what it's supposed to be. A lot of pastors fail to see this necessity, and they ignore the word of God, and they don't teach the congregation the truth. And this is happening way too often.

This is one of the areas where this error creeps in. Now, just to let you know, I'm going to just toot my own horn here a little bit. Tonight I'll be teaching in roughly about two hours from now. I'm going to be teaching a Bible study here in my home.

I'm going to put it on the net. And we're going to be going over through biblical theology. I'm just teaching impromptu.

I don't have any notes. I'm just going through teaching stuff. I taught two hours last night or last week on the doctrine of God. We're probably going to go over a little bit more on the Trinity, the hypostatic union, communicat, and things like that, incarnation, eternal sonship, and various things, eternal covenant.

I'm going to go through some stuff that needs to be gotten through. Christians need to know this stuff. Unfortunately, what's happening is too many pastors want congregations to grow because they think that success means I have a lot of people. That's how they measure their success, which is humanism. It says I need to have more people in my congregation. That's how I know I'm doing God's work.

That is not true. And that means they're looking at human measurement as the means of success, not what does the Word of God say in my teaching God's Word. And in the process, if people leave their congregation because they're teaching the Word, then so be it. Let the sheep be separated from the goats. The Christian pastor is supposed to be preaching to the sheep and equipping the sheep, not pleasing the goats. It doesn't mean it's the offensive to the goats.

We want goats to become sheep, so to speak, but the pastor is supposed to do that, and they lean too far into these wacko theories, replenish the earth, and Adam and Eve weren't the first ones, and all this other kind of garbage that is unfortunately being taught in pulpits around America today. Okay, buddy, we've got a break. You want to hold, or are we done? We're done. Yeah, I'm going to hold all for one, one more. All right, hold on then.

We've got a break. Hey, folks, we'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, let's get back on the air with Cherry from North Carolina. Cherry, welcome. You're on the air, buddy. Yes, sir.

Yeah, I do have one comment, though, Matt. Me and my wife, you know, every time down here in this area, we go to a church, and it feels like a lot of them is a bunch of emotions and that sort of thing, and it's like they don't want to, I don't know. I want to get somewhere that they teach what you're talking about, but you can't find that around here.

I mean, it just doesn't exist. I mean, I've gone to a lot of different churches, and I don't want to be somebody that's as hot in one church as another. I just don't want to be filled up with a bunch of emotions all the time and that sort of thing, and the one thing I really feel like, us men, like that last caller that you had, yeah, we all, you know, have got a lot to answer for. I feel like one day of not getting this in our minds and our hearts, and I'm just like that other caller you just had, that last one, you know, I resonate with that guy a lot, and I just wanted to say that, and I'm just really tired of the emotional different churches. You need to get one that they're teaching heresy, then they're teaching heresy another way with emotions.

So I don't know where to go. Me and my wife haven't gone to church in a while, and we just don't know where to go. Remember, Paul said in the last days, before the Antichrist comes, there's going to be an apostasy. People are falling away from the truth, and the pastors and teachers are going to be responsible for a lot of this, because they're not teaching the truth. They don't want the truth. I've heard so many times over the years, oh, did you go to cemetery instead of saying seminary. What they're saying is, now, some seminaries are bad, but some of them are very good.

They're saying they don't want deeper theological meaning, and it's a problem. I mean, I've got stories. I've got stories about teaching pastors and elders and the blatant ignorance of biblical theology and spiritual practices in their families and homes and things like this was shocking. I've got stories about it, but nevertheless. So it's important for us to stand up as men and be biblical men and stand up for the truth, and it's not happening in the church.

What I tell people is they've got to understand something. Adam and Eve were in the garden. She sinned first. She gave the fruit to Adam. They both hid after they both sinned, and the pre-incarnate Jesus came and said to the man, where are you? He addressed Adam because he was the federal head because he was the one that was ultimately responsible the way a captain of a boat or captain of a ship is responsible for what happens on the ship.

And so this is the kind of thing. So God's going to come to the men. He's going to come to the elders of the church. He's going to come to the husbands of the families. He's going to ask questions and hold them accountable in a stricter level because they're simply men, and this is how God has set things up. And if a man supports a woman pastor and elder, you're not qualified to be a pastor or an elder on your own. You don't have the discernment. And I would suggest that if you have any questions about this, go to the website, karm.org. Look up women pastors and see what the Bible says about it.

And don't give me the stuff about Phoebe and about Deborah and all these things where people don't know what they're talking about because they don't know how to exegete their way out of a wet paper bag. All right? Yeah, I agree with that, and I thank you so much, Matt, and I hope your wife is doing well and your family. Thank you so much, sir. I appreciate you, buddy. God bless. Thanks a lot, Terry.

All right. Let's get on the phones with Kathleen from Winston Channel, North Carolina. Kathleen, welcome. You're on the air. Hi. How are you? Thanks for taking my call. I'm fine. Thanks.

What do you got? Okay. It's kind of hard to hear you, and I apologize. I'm driving.

I can hear me. The first one is just kind of a clarification as far as female preachers. You are not including with that or just like when we go to Women of Faith ministries or like facilities and listening to women that preach. That is something separate. Is that correct?

Yeah. They are not to be pastors and elders in the church and they are not to exercise authority over men in the church. If there's a woman giving a conference where it's just women, then that's okay. But she doesn't have that right then to get up into a pulpit. Say they had a Sunday morning service where she gets up in the pulpit and then preaches a sermon just to women.

That would be inappropriate because she's taken that place that belongs to the man and she shouldn't be doing that. Wow. But other than that, it's fine.

A lot of people think. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.

I was going to say a lot. Well, that kind of leads into my second concern. All right. Because my second concern was the church that we started listening to, and I hate to say his name but throw it out there, but it's Elevation Church, Steven Furtick. Steven Furtick. Yeah, don't listen to him.

Yes. That's what I was afraid you'd say because this is what Bob just needed to call because his wife, Holly, will sometimes preach. And we have really prayed for discernment listening to him. The thing that troubles us is that he mentions a relationship that he has with Phil Osteen who I really strongly dislike and distrust.

But I don't get that here on the back of my neck feeling for Steve that I feel like he is evil. Okay. What I want to hear is, but the Bible says the Bible says. People, we've got to be careful. We've got to be careful. Let me tell you, Steven Furtick, you know, with a woman pastor, wife preaching, that's false.

It should not happen. Now, in Calvinism, I'm going to read a quote from him. In Calvinism, what is taught is called the doctrines of grace. Calvinism says that God's grace and grace alone is what leads to our salvation, that God's graciousness in the Trinity from eternity back, eternal time past, his graciousness in the eternal covenant, his grace in the incarnation and the death and resurrection of Christ, and his grace as he moves to us and through us through the preaching of the word and the equipping of the saints, the grace of God. It's called the doctrines of grace.

This is what we teach. I'm a Calvinist, okay. Now, he says if that doesn't get you excited and you need the doctrines of grace as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you're in the wrong church.

Let me get my phone booked. There are 720 churches in Charlotte. I'm sure we can find one where you can stuff your face until you're so obese spiritually that you can't even move. Now, this is an insult in his ignorance to mock the doctrines of God's grace. He actually addressed it.

You need the doctrines of grace defined by John Calvin. The issue is what he says scriptural, and yes, it is. So he supports women pastors, and he thinks T.D. Jakes is great. There's one God that is a Trinity, and he thinks T.D. Jakes is great. T.D. Jakes denies the Trinity because he says, I want you to stand on your feet right now and let's welcome to the stage the greatest preacher of our time, Bishop T.D. Jakes.

Come on and show him embarrassing love. T.D. Jakes denies the Trinity. We asked what he was on the other night. That did punch me in the gut, yes. Steven Furtick doesn't know what he's doing, and he's a decent speaker, and because they don't have discernment, this is what's going on. You see, I sound like a broken record complaining and whining about people who are supposed to know stuff, and then I say, well, that's bad. That guy's bad, and people say, well, is anybody good? Well, yeah, there is. There are good people out there. But the thing is that we've got to realize that there are bad teachers out there.

There are a lot of bad teachers. There's a lot of them, and the Christian church is just failing to discern the truth, and pastors need to be in that pulpit and saying, ladies and gentlemen, this is what the word of God says, and if you don't like it, it's not my problem. It's between you and God, but my job is to preach His word. That's what has to happen from that pulpit, but no. How many people have we got in the church?

We have this program for that, a program for this, a program. It makes everybody comfortable so that people are coming into the church because that's what they measure success by. I'd like to take a pastorate over a church of 1,000 people, and I'd warn the elders, if I pastor your church, half the people are going to leave in the first three months.

I'm not mean. People say I'm a good preacher. But the thing is, what does the word of God say? I call people to repent. I call people to study. I call people to be trained. I call people to make disciples. I call people to do what the word of God says and not support people like T.D. Jakes or Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Meyer who teach heresies, and these people can't even discern truth from error. The Bible says the elders are supposed to be able to do that, and they are disqualified. My spiritual Tourette's is going to kick in pretty soon.

I'm going to start calling them here. I think the church should be the place where you're either hot or cold. God is going to spit it out.

It seems to be one or the other, like you were saying, but I guess I have my Bible open when I'm watching the sermon and the scriptures. I haven't found fault that there's been enough. I don't know. I'll tell you what. We've got to break. You want to hold? Sorry. We've got to break.

You want to hold or are we done? That's okay. No problem.

I'd like to go. Thank you very much. Okay. Sorry about that.

God bless. Hey, folks, three open lines. 877-207-2276.

We'll get to Natalie about Wim Patchers after the break. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. I just want to let you know before we get to the caller that we're going to Israel next year this week, today and tomorrow. It's the last opportunity of the sign-up process. You can get $100 off the trip if you want to go. So you've got to check it out today.

If not, that's okay. But just to let you know and if you're interested, just go to karmisrael.com. C-A-R-M. Israel.com. One word. Let's get to Natalie.

I want to talk to Natalie about Wim Patchers. This is one of my favorite topics. It is. Let's get to Herb. Yes, sir. Hey, Matt. How are you doing? How are you doing, buddy? Doing great, buddy. I love your show. I just can't tell you how much I enjoy listening to your show every day.

I try not to ever miss. You're a smart man. Well, thank you. I knew that. Right. No.

One question. I became a Christian at 12 years old, so I'm not questioning if I'm a Christian. What I want to know, so many of my friends and family, different ones, say you can lose your – I'm sorry. You have to be baptized to be saved.

Really? I don't think that's true from everything I've understood from the Bible and through the church preaching and everything. I mean, God saved the man on the cross, and he wasn't baptized. Is it really true that you have to be baptized or something you just want to do, but if you don't do it, you know, that doesn't keep people out of heaven, does it? Okay. Baptism is not necessary for salvation, flat out not.

That's what I'm talking about. Okay. Now, people who are listening, I know about John 3, 3 through 5. Jesus says unless your man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Okay? That's what they're going to say. They're going to say that proves that water baptism is necessary.

It isn't proof, and I'll show you why. Because what it says, Jesus says in John 3, 3, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he? Jesus says, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Now, my opinion on what he's talking about here is that the water is referring to the womb, not the word of God and not baptism. It's not the most popular view even among my contemporaries, but this is what I honestly believe it's talking about because Nicodemus says enter the womb, and we can't do it again. Jesus says that was born of water and the Spirit.

Well, what's he talking about? Born again is a spiritual birth, and Nicodemus talked about the womb, which is where the breaking of the water. Jesus says born of the water and the Spirit, and then he says that was born of the flesh is flesh and the Spirit is spirit. I see the consistency there. That's just my opinion, and that's what I affirm. So it doesn't say that. Plus, let's just say that they dismiss that argument. They want to say that the water there means baptism. Really?

I'm going to ask them. Well, then if that's the case, which baptism is he talking about? Because the only one that was there at that time was John the Baptist's baptism. So is that what you're talking about? It doesn't make sense. Now what are we going to do?

Because if water baptism is necessary, it's a Trinitarian baptism, which isn't there yet. Yeah. So you see? Well, that's what I thought all my life. I thought, well, I know I'm not crazy. I said, let me call an expert, the first person I thought of that was you. One other quick question.

I know you don't have a lot of time. That's all right. When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, do you believe that it was already preplanned, preordained, I guess is the word, by the Lord?

In other words, did they just make an independent choice and were influenced by the devil? Yes. Okay. Let me get in and explain something. There's what we call ultimate cause, proximate cause, and efficient cause. Now this sounds like philosophical mumbo jumbo, but you've got to understand. All things that occur, every event in our lives, every event in the universe, whether it's here or on Pluto, it doesn't make any difference. All events stand in causal or effective relationship from the single uncaused cause, which is God. God brought the universe into existence and all events that occur in that universe ultimately come back to the ultimate cause, who is God.

So every event that occurs, no matter what it is, ultimately leads back. If you go back, what caused that event? What caused that?

What caused that? You go back and you go back, it comes back to the issue of what God would have brought the universe into existence. So God is the initial cause. He's the ultimate cause of all things. It does not mean, however, that when he's the ultimate cause of all things, that he is the direct cause of something.

So let me explain. Proximate causation would be something like, let's see, God arranged the garden, Adam and Eve, to be there, and he let the devil come in. So God is letting them do that. Right there it's proximate.

It's right there and immediate, right there. God allowed all that to occur, but he is not the one who caused Adam to sin. Adam chose to rebel, and so Adam is the efficient cause of his own rebellion. So God could be said to be, definitely he's the ultimate cause, and you could say he's the proximate cause, but he's not the efficient cause because Adam freely acted in rebellion against God. Now, along with this is the issue of the decorative will, prescriptive will, and permissive will of God.

These are theological categorizations. It's like the previous thing I was talking about, causation. So the ultimate cause of God is, I mean, the ultimate will of God is, for everybody, the decorative will. Let there be light. Let there be light. He decrees it. It occurs. The prescriptive will is, thou shalt not lie.

It's a prescription. He prescribes, don't lie, but his permissive will is to allow people to lie. So he wills to allow people to disobey him even though he doesn't want them to. It's because of freedom. We're made in God's image, Genesis 1.26.

I'll probably end up being talking about this tonight in our Bible study. And what's called the imagio Dei, the image of God, and the communicable attributes of God in us. So we're able to have freedom.

Now, then what people say is, no, wait a minute. That can't be the case that we have free will because if God knows what our choices are going to be, then we don't have the freedom to do them. When it comes time to do them, we can't choose anything else. Well, that's because you chose to do something and God knows that. And it's not that his choices depend upon yours. Furthermore, we know, going quickly, furthermore, we know that Jesus had free will because he's God in flesh. But Jesus said in John 5.19, the son can do nothing of himself unless it's something he sees a father doing. And in John 5.30, I can do nothing of my own initiative.

As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just. So Jesus is demonstrating that he who has free will came down to do the will of the father who sent him, John 6.37-40. And he can do nothing of his own initiative. So therefore, the free will of Christ is proof that it works with God's ordination and decrees.

They both work. God is beyond them. So this is the foundation and the framework of dealing with these kinds of issues. Okay? Yeah.

Well, it's just drawn me for a long time. I'm thinking, well, I almost think, well, so if they had not sinned, we would not have all this sin on the earth. Not necessarily.

No, no. That's logic. If they hadn't sinned, someone else would have.

Yeah. That's true. Man sinned. Born is a sinner.

That's good to think. If you were in the garden after Adam, say he didn't sin, and there you are, how are you going to do? Would you tell me right now? I wouldn't have sinned.

I'd have been okay the rest of my whole life. I don't think you'd say that. Yeah. So, yeah. Me? What would be a contest?

Does he last the longest? It's something to think about. I mean, it's been on my mind for a while, and I said, I've got to call you and ask you.

And real quick, I'm the guy that sent you a little message about the space ship, the UFO that landed on my street when I was young. Okay. I remember that. Yeah. It actually happened. There were three holes left with a ring of fire around it that freaked a man out.

You know, he's an older man. It was just the whole talk of the town, and they say they just cannot. They had no idea what it was.

There was a ring of fire in the road, but they could not match it with any kind of chemical that we know of on the surface. Yeah. There are stories like that all over the world.

And I have been studying off and on UFOs for 30, 40, 35 years. Yeah. And there's something going on, and that's another topic.

But, yeah, there's some real manifestations. Okay? Yeah. I've seen the holes.

I saw them when I lived there. I remember well. Okay.

Okay. Well, thank you so much, Matt. God bless you. I wish nothing but the best for you and your wife. And you're just an incredible person and a real credit to the Lord.

You really are. I pray for you. Well, God gets the glory.

Okay? Praise God. All right, Matt. Thank you so much. You too. God bless.

All right. Let's get to Brian from Richmond, Virginia. Brian, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, good afternoon, Matt. Good to talk to you again. Mm-hmm.

Sorry about that, buddy. Hey, I've got two quick questions. The first one's really easy. I'm just curious. If you don't mind me asking, what version of the Bible do you tend to use? I mean, I say version. I'm sorry. Translation.

Do you tend to think it's the most accurate? NASB. New American Standard.

NASB. Mm-hmm. And I've heard that. Okay.

Well, that reinforces that. Okay. Mm-hmm.

The second question, I've just always been curious. The dating between biblical dating as far as the origins of man and science, which I have a lot of questions about, like carbon dating and Neanderthals and all this stuff, what are the Christians supposed to think about this? I mean, when they say we have dates of a thousand. Well, we have dates of thousands.

They have hundreds of thousands and tens of thousands. It seems to be a little, I don't know how their carbon dating works because I know tests are only as good as the tests they make up. We're almost out of time, so let me jump in.

Okay. Carbon 12. There's carbon 12, 13, 14. Carbon 12 is absorbed by biological organisms. So a squirrel, for example, is eating and he has a certain amount of carbon 12 in him. And then when the squirrel dies, let's say the squirrel dies and is covered by snow and ice within a few hours, then what happens is the carbon 12 in him, in that squirrel, is decaying because there's no replenishment coming in through eating and respiration. So the half-life of carbon 12 is 5,730 years. What this means is when you have an isotope, you have something that has a half-life, that means if a half-life is 10 years, it means if you have one pound of it and the half-life is 10 years, that means in 10 years you only have half a pound of it. But it's sitting there. This is what happens on the atomic level. So carbon 12 cannot exist in an organism that's died and is preserved, cannot exist for more than 100,000 years.

After 100,000 years, actually it's 90, but I just say 100, there should be no traces of carbon 12 in those fossilized, whatever it is, biological descendants. It should not exist. You got me? You with me? Okay?

Yes, yes I am. Okay. So diamonds take millions of years. They have carbon 12 in them. Coal shoals have carbon 12 in them. They take millions of years to form. There's major, major, major problems just based on carbon 12. Just on that alone, there's all kinds of problems. As far as dating methodologies go, let me read this one.

Let's see. At Somerset Dam in Queensland, Australia, 15 rock samples from a conveniently dated or conventionally dated Jurassic Triassic intrusion. That's approximately 216 million years, 225 million years old. And a potassium-argon dating system gave ranges of 183 million years old. An isochron dating 174 million. And then by the rubidium strontium, it was 393. And by the Sumerian neodymium, it was 259.

And in the lead, it was 1.4 billion. So you see, it's all over the map. We ran out of time. Call back tomorrow. We'll talk to you more about it, okay?

I sure will. Thanks, Matt. All right. Hey, folks, sorry about that.

Craig, sorry about that. Give me a call tomorrow. And may the Lord bless you all. And by His grace, we're back on here tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. Have a good one. Bye.