Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network Podcast. We've been doing some research on all kinds of stuff with it. In fact, if you were to go to Google and type in, what is the Trinity? It turns out that Karm shows up around the third page. If you go to Bing and Yahoo and DuckDuckGo and check it out, it's like number one or two on the first page. We suspect that Google is penalizing Christian sites, maybe Karm, because I say some non-politically correct stuff like homosexuality is sinful and stuff like that, so we don't know. We don't know. Why would the other sites all give a better reading and yet that one doesn't?

It's just something we discovered today. Anyway, if you want to give me a call, we're going to Israel next year. If you are interested in checking it out, I'd love it if you were to go.

All you've got to do is go to KarmIsrael.com. You can check it out and you can see what's going on. It's going to be a great trip.

Let me tell you something. I went before. It's almost like it completes the Bible, going there and being there, walking the same road that Jesus walked, being in the same garden that he was in, seeing Bethlehem, seeing the well, going to the very well that Jesus was at in John 4, things like that. We even went and saw the very room that was in the Gospels where they let the man down, the paralytic, through the roof. Jesus was in that room. It's a site and it has plexiglass over it. It's one of the few places they say, yeah, this is absolutely, this is it. They're like 98% sure kind of a thing. You look down in the room and you know Jesus was in there, in that room. It's awesome to see stuff like that. Of course, we're in the Sea of Galilee and I tried to walk on the water on the Sea of Galilee.

I gave it a shot and I only ventured out about 12 inches from the shore and put my foot in the water. Here it goes. It didn't work for me. So hey, you know, you've got to try. I actually brought back some of the stones from Israel. This is very small.

These are some of the stones that did not cry out and if you know what the Bible says about that it would be interesting. So anyway, a lot of fun, karmisrael.com if you want to check it out. This week is the last week for a $100 discount if you want to sign up. You've got to do that.

Okay, let's get to let's see Alberto from Georgia. Welcome. You're on the air a little. You there? Good evening, Matt.

Good evening. Yeah. My question is, you know the high priest, you know, there's about every once a year.

Yeah. And to atone for the nation of Israel. You know how to be completely right before God, you know, got no thanks, you know, no sin, basically almost. And this entire long rope with a veil. Yes, I know, but God took them dead.

God will pull them out that the people will pull them out, drag them out of the Holy Holy. Now how come when Antiphonus of Tiffany went, went to Holy Holy went right through the courtyard went right into the temple then to the Holy Holy. And as the desert created the Holy Holy with the pig blood, why that God didn't kill him instantly before he even reached that far into the Holy Holy. He was only giving holy right before God at all. He was a man with a man, a pair at all. Okay, wait, Alberto, Alberto, do you have a question?

Just that's my question. I've got to kill him. Why, why would I think that kill that that son of the devil?

Yeah, he killed a high priest. Okay, wait a second. Alberto, Alberto, Alberto, you gotta hold on.

You gotta hold on. Um, I don't understand your question. Um, so why didn't God kill? Oh, Antiochus, Antiochus, okay. Um, when he did that, uh, I don't know. Probably because the spirit of God had left already. Uh, and so because of Israel's failure and the desecration was already going on and God's presence was probably already gone out of that place. Okay.

That's probably what it was. All right. So, so God's spirit left the nation of Israel because of the rebellion and all that. No, I didn't say he left the nation of Israel. He said he left the Holy of Holies. That would be the explanation.

Right. Because Israel was blowing it and uh, you know, they were not re not doing what was needed to be done. There was sin in Israel. And um, so when Antiochus came in and did what he did, they were destroying the people of Israel and God sends people in to destroy Israel when Israel is bad. When Israel rejects God, it goes into idolatry and various things.

He sends people in to clean their clock. So that would, uh, mean that'd be consistent to say that God had, was not occupying that place of holiness right there. Okay.

Okay. So if you updated today, the same thing happened to America. All the sins, the committing abortion, homosexuality, false teachings, false doctrines, the churches are weak. The teachers are teaching heresy and you think the spirit of God is going to allow these foreigners to overthrow America? Well, um, I would say that God is very displeased with America. I'm actually doing research, um, on the, the chronology of America in the past, uh, you know, 60 or so, 70, 80 years on how they got rid of God, um, the movement towards secularism and humanism and the rise of, of mayhem and crime and drugs and pornography as they've gotten rid of God.

And then the problems that are rampant in America right now, and then they blame conservatives and you know, the hypocrisy and the lies. So our country can't survive with this. It cannot.

No country ever has survived it. So, um, why hasn't God destroyed America? Uh, he's in the process of, of letting it destroy itself.

That's for sure. And because we've turned our back on God as a whole. So there are Christians within the nation who are rising up and praying for this country. And so God is, is holding back his more severe judgment. Okay.

So it was like basically the same way what they did with the Jews when the captivity Babylonian, they took them away as coming out of America's not happy because I'm allowed to take over America. He's picking away captors. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, God is patient.

Okay. He's very patient. And, um, so God said to Israel, you know, if my people will repent, he's talking about, uh, you know, covenant Israel and God is very patient. He doesn't want us to suffer, but if we're going to turn our backs on him and if the Christian church becomes weak and anemic and starts entertaining the doctrines of demons as it is in so many areas with so many false teachers on TV and in the pulpit, uh, then, uh, he's going to remove more and more of his protective work against against the evil. And we're going to reap the whirlwind. So this is why it's important for Christians to be United in the essentials of the Christian faith and to stand forth and to pray for revival and also stand up and resist the evil that is approaching because we know that this is happening. In fact, in fact, I'm just kind of rambling a little bit, but I'm working on another article dealing with the similarities between cult mentality and cult practices and the, uh, the secularist control efforts that are going on.

And I've got this, a table I'm working on and showing you the similarities and, uh, they're definitely there. And so we have to understand that the people in power, uh, in my opinion, they've got some mental problems. In fact, it was, was it Tucker Carlson a couple of nights ago said that, um, what was the statistic? I think my wife took a copy of it that, um, so like 34% of, of people on the left or the secular, I forgot what it was, are, have been diagnosed with mental problems.

And, um, just let me say every one of them is bad. And if you're on the left, you've got mental problems, but there's a high percentage and it makes sense because of the irrationality, the illogic, the agendizing that's going on. So, uh, I see it in cult behavior and cultists, and I've seen it for decades.

So I'm recognized the same thing in the political regime, uh, with people who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag and care nothing about truth, but only about agenda. That's part of what it means to have what's called snapping. Um, snapping is a psychological phenomenon that happens inside of cults where someone might pray about the book of Mormon, pray about, uh, the watchtower Bible and track society, uh, pray about whatever it is in the Roman Catholic church. And then they snap, they become emotionally committed to that group or that, that theology or that person or that whatever it is. And once they've snapped, it's called snapping.

It's very hard to get them out because they just give themselves over to it. Well, the same kind of thing happens in the secular realm. And, uh, it does, it happens in usually in the political realm, help happens with sports teams. People, uh, it's a good place to, uh, uh, to recognize that is, is I've run tests on this and seminars where I've said, let me, I'm going to show you guys something and, and, um, let's say, you know, what, what's, you know, wherever city I'm in and I'll say, what's the, your best, uh, you know, baseball team or football team, but I don't even follow him.

I don't follow any sports. And they'll tell me and I'll say, Oh, that team. And I'll start insulting that team. And I can watch the people bristle in the, uh, congregate in the, um, the chairs. And I said, what I just did, I did on purpose because I want you to feel what it was like to emotionally react against something you're committed to.

It's not an issue of rationality to an issue of emotionality. And I said, now watch this. Now I'm going to start saying the opposite. I'm going to say the real great.

They are the best team. And I started saying all this stuff. And I say, now what do you think?

Well, not really. And people have emotional commitments. And so they, they, what they'll do is they will then gather teachers to themselves to tickle their ears. This happens in churches and it happens in the secular realm. So the leftist wackos will only want to watch far leftist wacko news information that gives them what they want to hear. And the same thing can happen on the far right. So where they get wackos in the far right and then same thing. So the mentality of the cults and a psychological manipulation, which is happening in the secular realm through mask wearing, uh, I believe it's just now it's just a mask, uh, thing.

It's a, uh, it's a submission marker for the secularists. How much can we keep them under submission under a thumb? We'll keep telling them they got to wear the masks, even though they've been vaccinated, even though they're immune, even though we, you know, people aren't, uh, fewer people are sick from COVID and there are from, uh, other flus that are out round right now.

We won't tell them that we're going to keep them under our thumb. This is the kind of thing that's going on. And, uh, it just reminds me so much of cult stuff. Anyway, I'm just rambling, but okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. God bless you. Super the great work. All right, man. Thanks a lot. All right.

That was Alberto. Let's get to Julie right after the break. Hey, Julie, please hang on. And we will be right back after these messages.

Folks went over the line eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the show.

Let's get on here with Julie from North Carolina. Julie welcome you're on. Thanks Matt. Um, well, first of all, thank you for taking my call.

And second of all, I, um, I really want to thank you for what you do. I, um, I've been perplexed with the last three sessions that I've listened to of your broadcast about the whole Roman Catholic church. Um, and I told your screener that, and I'm like, question is kind of weird, but, um, I grew up kind of dysfunctional Catholic.

I'm just kind of doing it because everybody did it. Um, so about eight years ago I was born again, saved Christian and my mother and her husband are still very, very devout Catholic. So I'm struggling with this because I'm going through a very difficult season in my life, but it's a blessing because I'm becoming closer and closer to God and my walk with Jesus through it all. And so as you can imagine what's happening is my mom is seeing that transition of me getting closer. So she and my, she and my stepfather, so to speak, I've been having this conversations about Julie's getting closer to Jesus. She's a better Christian than I am.

And my mother told me that her husband said she is, but she's just in the wrong church. And so that's been annoying at me. Like it's been really kind of annoying at me because I've been diving into your page on CARM.

Um, and I'm just, the things that I'm learning are, are just, I'm like, wow. And I don't know even if I should approach it or even if I should have, I don't want to cause conflict. Okay.

So what's your question then? My question is, is it biblical to have that conversation with her or is it, should I just for the sake of not causing waves, which is more important, preaching the true gospel to somebody or having them be comfortable? Well, honestly, for me, it's preaching the true gospel. Well, it's not just for you.

It's everybody. The gospel is the most important thing. You don't want your, your parents, uh, to be comfortable on their way to hell. That's why we teach the truth against Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, Christian scientific unity, Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism. We speak the truth about them. So, you know, that doesn't mean we just go in, you know, with a 12 gauge doctrinal shotgun and blast them out.

What you want to do is be patient and kind as much as possible. And so what I'd recommend you do is ask your mom, you know, when it becomes appropriate, you say, well, do you pray to Jesus? Don't talk about Mary.

Cause you know, they, they're idolatrous when it comes to Mary. Do you pray to Jesus? Yes.

Is he God in flesh? Well, yes. Can he forgive you of all of your sins?

Well, yeah. Well then if you ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins, will he forgive you of all of your sins? And this is when you're going to find Catholics start saying, well, the Catholic church says you got to go to the priest. The Catholic church says, and just wait till they're done talking and then ask a question. But if you pray to Jesus and you ask him to forgive you of all of your sins, will he forgive you? Well, you see, you got to go through penance. You got to go through, you wait till they're done talking and you ask the same question again.

The question needs to be repeated. It needs to be in their head. They need to realize the Catholic church is not the true church. The Catholic church is not the true means of salvation.

It's just a gigantic religious false system and that they need to come to Christ. And the Catholic church is actually standing in the way of that. And the evidence of this is when you ask this very simple question, when Jesus says come to me, all who are heavy laden, I'll give you rest, Matthew 11, 28. And he says, ask me anything in my name and I will do it, John 14, 14. And he forgives sins, Luke 5, 20. So he does this and you can pray to him, 1 Corinthians 1, 2.

And then he forgives, he calls, he does all this stuff. And the fact that they will turn to their church, what their church says is proof that the church is standing in the way between them and Christ. Because what any church, any false religious system will do when you point them to Jesus is they'll say, well, the church says, or our prophet says, or our prophetess says, or our priest says, or whatever. And instead of going straight to Christ, like Jesus said, come to me.

He just says, come to me. Doesn't say go to a priest, doesn't say go to a church, doesn't say go to all these things for rituals, doesn't say anything. He says, come to me and I'll give you rest, what Jesus said. So Satan, what he will do is use any group and use the name of Jesus as well as other Christian type things in the Bible and use them and twist them just enough to get something in between God and that person so that they're not going straight to Christ, the real Christ, they're going through a mediator to get to Christ. And that is the church, the prophet, the prophetess, the priest, the sacraments.

And this is what's going on. So it's the proof that they are brainwashed and in a false system when they can't go straight to Jesus, just as Jesus said, and be forgiven of their sins. And so anyway, back to the point, just ask her, can you pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins? Just like they did in the Bible. He's prayed to 1 Corinthians 2. They call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. That phrase, call upon the name of the Lord in the Old Testament is prayer. 2 Corinthians 13, 9, Psalm 116, 4. And so it's prayer and it's applied to Jesus.

And then Stephen prays to Jesus in Acts 7, 55-60. I can go through all of it. Anyway, that's the whole point. And just slowly work that way. And tell her, you know what? You say, I've done that. I've prayed to Jesus, not through, to Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins. And he said in Matthew 7, he says, if you ask him, he'll give it to you. He's not going to give you something else. But I tell, I warn people, count the cost. Because if you're in a cult, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, or a false religion like Catholicism and you go to Christ, he's going to require that you follow him, not a religion.

And it can cost you a great deal. But it's what salvation is. All right.

That's very good advice. Thank you. It's going to be two against one and it's going to be very difficult. Oh no, it's going to be you and Jesus.

You and Jesus against him. I agree. No, I agree. Yes, you're so right. You are so right. Thank you. You're right. You don't have to give a thousand answers, okay?

Just point them to Christ and say, hey, I've gone to Jesus and have to forgive me. And ask him, was that wrong for me to do? What am I going to do? Okay.

And ask him, have you done the same thing? Thank you so very much. You're welcome. Julie, let us know what happens, okay? Okay. I definitely will. Thank you.

I'm going to be, I used your cut and paste section on your website. It's just fantastic. And I've learned so much. So I just want to thank you again for all you do. And I love listening to you. So thank you. Oh wow.

Call my wife up and tell her how great I am and that she needs to listen to me. Okay. Okay.

You need to do that because she's, she's not convinced. All right. I love them. Okay. All right. Okay. Julie. Okay.

We'll see you. God bless. Hey, who was that cutie that was just there on the summit? Charlie, you put that up there on the cutie. That was a cute little girl. Put a picture up there.

Just a little cutie girl, you know, uh, family pictures and stuff like that. All right. Let's get to Kelly from Los Angeles. Kelly. Welcome.

You are on the air. Okay. So I know that women are not supposed to teach men. I understand that part. My question is, hold on.

I'm so sorry. We'll talk. We'll be right back after these messages.

Okay. We'll get to Kelly from LA in a little bit folks. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right buddy. Welcome back to the show.

Just cracking up from stuff in the, in the meantime. Okay. Let's get back to Kelly from Los Angeles.

Kelly. Welcome. You're back on the air.

I'm back. Okay. So Matt, so I understand that women aren't supposed to have that authority over men and teach them in the leadership role in the church. My question is, can men read, uh, like Christian counseling books written by women? Sure. Christian women. Oh, they can. Yeah. I don't see why not. A lot of women have a lot of great wisdom and insight and uh, no problem at all. I don't see any reason. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

I heard an echo. You was going to say as long as they're not what man, like what? Try to pastor over them. Right. Not elders, pastors, you know, in the church.

That's the context. But if a woman wants to write a book and uh, you know, she has some good things to say, I wouldn't have any problem reading it, you know, as long as she's not trying to play the pastor and getting around it and say, Hey, here's what God says. This is what y'all need to do. And it can only get a problem.

And then she's moving out of the area. She wouldn't be in, but okay. Okay. Perfect.

Thank you for that confirmation back. God bless. Okay. Well, God bless. Okay.

All right. That was Kelly. You know, uh, the producer wrote in the stack that, uh, there was a caller thought might have been a troll, but it was someone advertising for a fortune teller site. And it just occurred to me, well, you'd think they would know that we were Christians, uh, ministry radio show.

Why would they call anyway? Just to, you know, puzzle. Let's get to Yvonne from Richmond, Virginia, which we won't. Let's get to Jacob from Wisconsin. Hey, Jacob, welcome.

You're on the air. My question is how Isaiah 65, 17 to 25 is fulfilled in all millennials, Isaiah, what 65 verse 17 to 25. Wow. That's a lot to have to read. Um, well, you know, I'll create new heavens, new earth, former things, glad to Joyce, uh, before I were behold, I create new heavens, new earth and former things will not be remembered. It's longer be an infinite list, but a few days old man, a few days. Uh, we'll hold house. Okay.

Oh yeah. Um, it's well, a lot of pre-millennial lists like this, uh, better than the all millennial list. The all millennial list would say that it's more figurative because of the infants living, for example, uh, for hundreds of years, you know, that doesn't make any sense.

Uh, and so they think that what's going on here is a real hyperbole, an exaggeration. And, uh, so the new heavens and new earth are certainly gonna be made from both perspectives, pre-mill and all mill. And they'll also reduce, rejoice in Jerusalem. Uh, I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people. There'll be no longer be heard of weeping and crying and the plant says they'll plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

They will not build another habit. Um, yeah, so, uh, chosen. So yeah, that's just, it's a lot of people think that, uh, it's not to be taken literal and some of, because I think it's, it's figurative and just talking about the, the blessing that's going to be coming as, as, um, things like the line will laying down with the lamb.

Is it really going to happen? Well, maybe. And it could happen in the new heavens, new earth. So I think kind of suits better for pre-mill than all mill, but, um, the all mills don't have a, don't have a problem with it.

Okay. So is it said that Amo would say that it's for the eternal state? Well, um, both sides, uh, we'll look at some things literally and other things figuratively. The pre-mill in the lists will again, generally come to Isaiah 65 new heavens and new earth and say it's literal and the line will lay down with the lamb. If it's literal, one of the main questions I ask out of this, uh, it will no longer be in it an infant who lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his days for the youth will die at the age of 100 and the one who does not reach age of 100 will be thought of cursed. Uh, and so if it's during the millennium, uh, why would someone be saying if Christ ruling that you're cursed if you died a hundred years old, you know, it's like what's going on. And, uh, so there are definitely figurative things going on and how to tackle this is a tough one. It's tough.

So, uh, well in for infants only, you know, live as infants just for a year or two. I mean, not even if that even long, you know, uh, not hundreds of years. It doesn't make sense.

So, you know, it's a tough one to get to and, and, uh, and ask, you know, it says the dust will be the serpent's food. So there's a lot of figurative use in there. Uh, so what does it really mean? I'm not exactly sure.

Okay. So they would just say that it's symbolic of heaven. Well, um, it could be, uh, because there is going to be a new heavens, a new earth, and, uh, you know, they're going to be a place of heaven and a place of the new heavens, a new earth. And so, uh, both sides will say this is something on, on earth that's going to occur and I don't have a problem with that. So the on millennialists could very well say, and I've really not dug into this on this issue. I just, that's not one of my areas of, of expertise of Isaiah 65. I use other things in the support of on millennialism, but the, the issue here is that, uh, it could be for both views because there's going to be a new earth, but even then, how is it that babies are going to live to be that old as babies, as infants, it just doesn't make sense.

So, um, that's why, uh, I say it's a lot of figurative language and we ought to look at it as figurative of utopia kind of, of work, uh, utopia kind of situation and condition. Okay. That's, that's how I look at it. That's why I've heard all millists look at it too.

Okay. Well, not necessarily because there's going to be a new heavens and a new earth, and this might be the condition on the new earth. I can't tell you which one it is. If it's a very figurative form of representing heaven or a figurative form of representing the new earth, either way from both perspective, if they want to say it's the millennial reign, then they have the problem of saying that, um, and babies live to be, uh, you know, infants or a hundred years old type thing. It's a problem or that they'll be cursed if they die young, who's going to be saying they're cursed. So there are just difficulties within the text to be able to say exactly what it is, but it works within both views of all mill versus pre-mill, even in some post mill views that it could be talking about the new earth. And I think it also could be understood to represent heaven as well. What is the sinner represent for heaven?

The what? It talks about a sinner. What verse? Um, and about death also, right?

Yeah. What verse? Cause I need to look at the verse, know exactly what it is. It's a big chapter.

And so, uh, without knowing exactly, I really can't comment too easily. I think it says the sinner shall die first. So those who die, uh, it said, uh, a youth will die at an age of a hundred and the one who does not reach the age of a hundred will be thought of cursed. So youth will die at the age. So for the youth will die at the age of 100 and the one who does not reach one age of 100 will be thought of cursed. So how could a youth be a hundred years old? Or does it mean that the youth are going to live to be a hundred years old? And then if they don't live to be a hundred, they're cursed. So what's going on there?

I'm looking at 20. Yeah. Verse 20.

Yeah. No longer will be an infant who lives a few days. Well, normally infants don't, not all infants die in infancy. So why we say no longer will it be that an infant who lives out a few days. So they're saying there won't be any more death, but if that's the case, why is it say that they don't, they die at a hundred that they, that there is death. See, when you really start looking at this, there's just a lot of questions that come up, which is why I'm saying we don't have a good answer for it. I don't have a good answer for what it is.

And no matter what position you take, there are difficult questions to ask, answer. Okay. What I had heard is that it's just one that post-millennial people like. Post-millenialists would like that, yeah.

Because they say that through the preaching of the gospel, the world will be converted to the gospel and then to Christianity that is, and then that will usher in the kingdom of Christ and the return of Christ, which I think is, is not supported in scripture. That's my view, but you know, people disagree. That's fine.

It's a debatable issue. All right. Okay. I had one other question.

Real fast. So post-millennial talk about the victory of the gospel and about the great commission being fulfilled and the nations being discipled. So in our millennialism, is it correct that basically the great commission is a failure? No. We would not say it's a failure.

The gospel is always powerful, but the Bible tells us things are going to get worse and it's going to go bad. That's what it says. It doesn't say it's going to get better. Period. Okay. Call back if you want. We'll talk tomorrow about it some more. We've got some other calls waiting. We're on a break.

Okay. Thanks, Jake. Hey folks, we have the two open lines 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right folks, it's real fast. I just want to remind you that it's the last week. If you want $100 off on the Israel trip, we're going on next year. Check it out, karmisrael.com.

C-A-R-M Israel, one word, dot com. Check it out. Let's get to Gordon from Utah. Gordon, welcome. You're on the air. Hello. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. Sure.

What do you got? I spend an awful lot of time driving and when I do, I love to listen to the people at Christian radio stations and I enjoy so much of what you say. The things that trouble me is why you would not consider people that are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not to be Christian.

It just kind of baffles my mind. Okay. So you're married, right? Correct.

Okay. If someone came up to you and said there's a woman with your name, with her driver's license, her car, her everything, and said this is your wife and you looked and went, that's not my wife. And they said no, everything fits.

You'd know something was amiss because you'd be fake. In the gospel, in the Bible, there's only one God in all existence, in all place, in all time. That's the real and true God. He's never been a man on another planet, near a star called Kolob, as Mormonism teaches.

Period. Mormonism does teach that, but the Bible teaches that to the contrary. Therefore they cannot be the same God.

In Mormonism, Elohim is the name of God the Father. Okay, that's really not what the Church teaches. Yes it is. I know that there's writings along that line, but if you've ever been to a meeting, it never comes up, it's never taught. Yes it is. The Mormon doctrine by Bruce McConkie, page 321.

There's a Mother Goddess, Articles of Faith by James Talmadge, page 443. Let me ask you. He can write what he wants. Let me test you. He can write what he wants.

It's not intended as a church. Let me test you. Do you affirm or do you deny that the God you believe in, because you're a Mormon, used to be a man in another world who became exalted to become a God. Do you believe that or affirm it? Affirm it or deny it? I wouldn't deny it. So you affirm it.

No, I would say that that is beyond my comprehension. Okay, so you don't deny. It's best if I focus. Hold on. Hold on. You ask me questions. I'm trying to help you. Do you affirm or do you deny that there's a Mother Goddess?

There may very well be. Okay, so there may very well be a Mother Goddess and that your God used to be a man in another world. Okay? And you teach that you had the potential of becoming a God.

Potential, right? Well, that's kind of what the Bible says, isn't it? No, never, never says that.

Ever, ever, ever. The power to become sons of God and we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Yeah, but it doesn't mean we're going to become a God like him.

It doesn't mean we are a God like him in redemption or like him in cleansliness and in holiness. The Mormon Church has simply told you. What about? How come you don't let me finish?

What about when? I tried to tell you this and you don't care. Well, what about what I say?

You're a Mormon. Can I point out that? Can I point out what John said? What Christ said? Sure, go ahead, try and give me one. In the Great High Priest's Prayer?

Give me one. Okay. That when he's praying for the Apostles, he's praying that they all may be one as thou art in me and I am in view. Yes. That we all may be one. Good, what does that mean? Doesn't that imply? What does it mean? Doesn't that imply that there's a certain level of unity and camaraderie in the life you're after? Yes, but not for Mormons.

Okay, so where do you adopt that? Because, because Gordon, you believe in a false God. Your God is... That's not true.

Yes it is. The God of the Bible has never been a man on another planet. How do you know what happened? Because God tells us, Psalm 90 verse 2, Psalm 90 verse 2, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God. In fact, God says, you are my witnesses and my servant whom I have chosen in order that you may know and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, there will be none after me. He says in Isaiah 44, 6, I am the first, I am the last, there is no God besides me. That's what he says, and there's lots of verses like this. In Mormonism, God has a goddess wife, that's two gods, Jesus is another god, and the Holy Spirit, excuse me, the Holy Ghost is another god, there's four gods right there.

You don't believe in a true God. When there is so much belief and recognition that Christ was the son of God, and where did they depart from that belief that Christ was the son of God? They didn't, Mormonism did. Mormonism was started by Joseph Smith. No, we believe that Christ is the son of God.

You mean the literal son of God, where God the Father and his goddess wife had relations and produced a spirit offspring in the heavenlies that then became human and Jesus is the first born in the pre-existence. Brigham Young in Doctrine and Covenants, not Doctrine and Covenants but in Journal of Discourses, volume 13, page 95, said, Brigham Young said, everything he taught in the pulpit was as good as scripture. He said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father came down and did it with Mary in order to get her pregnant.

Joseph Smith, I mean Brigham Young taught. You know, there's an awful lot of conjecture on these things. Is that a tenet of the gospel?

No, it's not. Do you deny it? What we know is that Christ said that he was the son of God, that when he was baptized, the Father spoke from heaven saying, this is my beloved son. So that's the context that I think that Christ is the son of God.

Here, let me show you something. The Jesus of the Bible is a true Jesus, would you agree? Absolutely. Okay, so if the disciples and the people in the New Testament behave towards Jesus a certain way, in a good way of course, then we should emulate that. We should do the same thing, right?

I think so. Okay, good. So if they pray to Jesus, is it okay for us to pray to Jesus? Is it okay for us to pray to Jesus?

We pray to the Father through Jesus. I didn't ask that. I said, if they pray to Jesus, is it okay for us to do the same thing? That's not the pattern. Okay, I'm asking you a question you're not answering. If they pray to Jesus in the New Testament, is it okay for us to do that?

That's my question. If I can show you in the New Testament where they did it, I can show you in the Book of Mormon. Second Nephi, 1918, they did pray to Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. So the Book of Mormon, they prayed to Jesus. In the Bible they prayed to Jesus, can you do that?

I would certainly pray to Jesus saying he's my Lord and my God. That's the pattern, absolutely. Would you ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins? Absolutely. Okay, have you ever done that?

Absolutely. So you have prayed to Jesus. What Christians would not. Mormons, because Mormons are not supposed to pray to Jesus. They're not supposed to pray to Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses don't pray to him either. Because you only pray to God the Father. In fact, your prayers according to Bruce MacLachie. The pattern that we follow, well the pattern that we follow in the church is the pattern of the Lord's Prayer.

Okay, let me ask you. And we do pray through Jesus as the New Testament instructs us. Would you be willing right now, because Jesus says if you deny me before men I'll deny you before God. Would you be willing right now, in all sincerity, I'm not mocking this at all, would you be willing to pray right now to the person of Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins?

Absolutely. Could you do that right now and ask Jesus to forgive you of everything, to reveal the truth of who he is to you? Would you be willing to do that right now?

He has. Would you do it right now over the air? May God bless us. Would you pray to Jesus right now? I'll do it right now. Okay, good.

Go ahead. Dear Father in Heaven, as we bow our head before thee, we give these thanks for the myriad blessings we receive at thy hand. And may we receive forgiveness of our sins through thy beloved Son Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior, our God and our King.

In his name, Amen. So you didn't do it? You didn't pray to Jesus? I said could you pray to Jesus?

You won't do it. I said through Jesus Christ will you forgive my sins. I'm asking you, I'm asking you, I'm asking you to Jesus.

We only have a few minutes left in the show, so I'm trying to be straight with you. Jesus has prayed to in the Bible. Even in the Book of Mormon, which I don't agree with, but the Book of Mormon, they pray to Jesus. You can't pray to him because you don't believe who he truly is. The Jesus of the Bible is a true Jesus.

Absolutely. No you don't because the Jesus of the Bible is prayed to. There's a phrase in the Old Testament, to call upon the name of Jehovah. In the Old Testament it means to pray. Psalm 116, go look it up after the show. They called upon the name of Jehovah.

Oh Jehovah, I beseech you save my life. They're praying to Jehovah. And you know that in Mormonism that's supposed to be Jesus. Well that phrase call upon the name of Jehovah was translated by the Jews into the Greek. Call upon the name of the Lord and applied to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 1 to the church who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus. That means they can pray to Jesus. You can't pray to Jesus. This is proof you don't have the Christ of scripture. And is it a sin, let me ask you this, is it a sin for us to pray the way the Lord, Jesus instructed us to pray.

No it's not. You can pray to the Father. In the Beatitude. You can pray to the Father. That's ok then. It's ok, but Jesus also said.

I'm not sure I understand your problem. Jesus also said ask me anything in my name and I will do it. John 14, 14. And the church calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus. It's in the Bible. And when Stephen was being stoned in Acts 7 55-60 he had a vision of God the Father and Jesus and he said Lord Jesus received my spirit. He didn't pray to the Father. He prayed to Jesus. Jesus is the. That's fine by me. See here's the problem.

We've got one minute. Jesus reveals the Father Matthew 11 27. He sends the Holy Spirit. John 14 26. If you don't have the right Jesus you won't have the right Father. You won't have the right spirit. Well I would defend myself by saying that Jesus I believe was born of Mary in Bethlehem that taught as we receive his word in the New Testament and died on the cross for us.

Nope. In Mormonism the atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane when he sweat blood. There is so much about Mormonism you don't even know.

I have the documentation. There's an awful lot. I've never heard anybody say it was only in the garden. It was in the cross and the garden which denies the sufficiency of the cross. I'm telling you. What?

You don't even know your own Mormonism. The sufferings were both. It was in the beatings. It was in the stripes that he received for our sake.

Gordon. It was not just on the cross it was all the suffering. Please call back tomorrow.

People would love to hear us dialogue. But you need to understand God is not an exalted man for another world who has a goddess wife. That's not that's what Mormonism teaches.

That's not Christianity. Call back tomorrow. I don't know anything about all that. I do.

Go to my website check it out. We gotta go we gotta go. Hey folks sorry I don't like hanging up on them. I want to talk more. Call back tomorrow. Hey folks my God's grace we'll talk to you then bye.