Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome to this show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live. If you want to give me a call, all you gotta do, as usual, is dial 87720722. seven six. I want to hear from you.

Give me a call. Today's date is october twenty sixth. October 26, 2026, and I want to hear from you.

So. Let's we got one called Waiting and um There we go, we got that fixed. Also, if you want to send me an email, then all you got to do is direct an email to info at carnbedorginfo at carm.org. And um We get your stuff. Easy peasy.

All right. Let's really just jump on and see what this is. Dave from Pennsylvania. Dave, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, brother, how are you? Doing all right by God's grace. Hanging in there. What do you got, man? What's up?

Okay. Ah, well. I had a good chat with you there Monday. I wanted your take and opinion on altar calls.

Okay. Ultra calls, I don't have any problem with them. It's just a form of a public confession of receiving Christ. as long as people don't say uh that I went to the altar call so therefore I'm okay. It's not a ceremony that saves us.

So, I don't have a problem with someone coming forward to receive Christ, raising their hand, sitting down in a seat in a chair in a congregation to receive Christ. Uh it doesn't matter.

So I don't have a problem with them theologically.

Okay? Mm.

So no issues with it, like if you're to have one at the end of a service. Sure. I Yeah. If it's done right.

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Sometimes I feel like there's a little bit of like folks do it. It's manipulation sometimes. And uh We don't want that, okay?

So that's an issue. That's why I said, as long as it's done right.

So I've been to churches where, okay, just one more minute. You know, we'll just play the music, get everybody in the mood. You know, anybody who wants to come forward. It's not like that. You know, if I were to do that, say, I was going to do an altar call.

uh if I was preaching, I'd s I would preach the law gospel cost. the law, you're guilty of sin, the gospel, how you get relieved of this sinful problem with God and the cost of being a disciple of Christ. And I'd say if any of you want to receive Christ, I said we're going to today, we're going to have the opportunity of you coming forward to pray with an elder or someone in the in here and and he or you know will will help you and and pray and you can talk to the Lord, you understand stuff. And that I wouldn't have any problem with that. And as long as it's done properly, but not this manipulation stupidity that goes on.

Okay. Gotcha. Makes sense. On a side note, I was sitting down and I did check out your debate there with the oneness fellow. Yeah.

Last week and uh I don't think he did a very good job of affirming his position but I don't think you can affirm it. Yeah, um I don't think he did a good job either. And he, in my opinion, drew illogical inferences. conclusions not necessary, not supported by his assertions. He was rude many times, and finally.

He settled down and would actually be polite after I knew several times talked to the moderator about that. Anyway, I thought it went well other than that. I thought it was good.

So, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you you did a very good job. I have discovered that when talking with one of these folks sometimes, that You you get that uh button. the rude aspect of it. I'll go right to one mouse or a minute.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. What about Cervetas? What about this? What about that?

Okay, well, we can discuss that at another time, another topic, but for now, what we're talking about is.

So Yeah. Um I get it. But yeah, I enjoyed doing debates. I got another debate coming up. Let's see, let me check my schedule.

Carm.org at C Calendar, forward slash calendar. Got a debate coming up on the 24th next month. Should Protestants be Trinitarians? With a guy named Metaphysics Mike. I have a guy, one or two guys, they'll just call me up.

I'll go, Hey, you want to debate so-and-so? I go, Oh, okay. Yeah, just a debate. I'll do it. I'll just do it.

And a lot of them know who these guys are. One time I didn't even know who he was. I researched for one hour before the debate.

Well who he was original.

So Oh, maybe it was two hours, I don't know. But um Yeah, now I could do that with this guy who you know. Yeah.

But at any rate, you know. I think. Yeah, I did see that. I did see an ad for Metaphysics Mike. uh and and and your debate coming up.

I will definitely check it out. Uh well I just wanted to kind of get your thoughts and pick your brain on that. I definitely appreciate your ministry and keep up the good work.

Well, we're trying, you know, I'm trying. And all we can do is, by God's grace, is hope to further His kingdom, bring glory to Him. That's it. Amen. Amen.

That's what it's about, brother. Amen. A dragon? All right, well, I will uh I'll hang up and uh I'll call back again. And we'll chat.

Okay, I appreciate it, brother. God bless. All right. God bless. Okay.

Mm-hmm. Goodbye. All right, we have nobody waiting right now, and um That's not a big deal. And I think what I'm going to do is review. a little bit of the encounter I had last night on On the web.

I'll talk about that periodically here in the show because these discussions I have. in my opinion, are very valuable. They're valuable to me. because they force me to articulate things think of things on the fly and things like this, and and run by arguments, field test them, etcetera, so I can deliver them on the radio and/or on the website and things like that. I got in a discussion last night.

Uh what I'll do is I'll put a headset on and carry my phone and the headset attaches to my phone and I walk around uh the block. And I'll one circuit is one mile and I'll do like four miles while I'm talking. And of course, I'm almost 70, and I'm walking and talking, and people will say, Man, you had to sit down. Man, you're breathing too hard. Hey, I'm sorry, I'm walking and talking.

And it reminds me of Brian Reagan, the walkie-talkie. Look, General, I'm walking a night talkie. You got it. You got so funny. Anyway, so I'm walking, talking, and I'm old, and they go, oh, okay.

Well, we'll let that slide then.

So, anyway.

So I have fun uh with that and um It's really good discussions and I ended up talking and saying something. That wasn't not a big deal. Uh Where I How do I put this? Where I put the gospel together in a way that was different. And I compared it To stuff, I'm gonna tell you what I said because in the room, usually there's a lot of pushback.

And this time? They they were quiet. They were listening. You could tell, you know, and then I'd see maybe comments, and people would come up and they would respond to what I said.

So And I said, look, This in the context and I said I think of things this way. God I said, how would you like which system for salvation would you prefer? It says, God elects people and predestines them. Ephesians 1, 4 and 5. He chose us, that's election.

in him before the foundation of the world, he predestined us to adoption. I said, where God does this before the foundation of the world. and that he gives them to the Son. For Jesus. In John 6:37, quote the verses.

All that the Father gives me will come to me. Those who come to me, I certainly will not cast out. And um I said, so Father, the Father does, and He grants that you have faith, Philippians 1:29. He grants that you come to Christ. John six sixty five.

He grants that you believe in Jesus, John 6:60, excuse me, John 6, 29. And I said So the faith that he grants is in Christ and it's the trust in what He did on the cross. It's all of God. I said, or the other system of of salvation Is you believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, but you have to go through ceremonies. Through Your sacraments.

in systems in a church. by which you have grace, put upon you, in you, through you. that then increase your ability To be with God and stay with God through your obedience. And I said Which one of those will give you peace and rest. And The room was quiet.

It was really interesting because I quoted Matthew 11, 28. Jesus says, Come to me, all who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And there is no rest when salvation depends. on your performance your participation And In ceremonies. And I was very careful how I said this to people.

I said, I'm not trying to be condemning, I'm running something by you. Which one is the one that would comfort you. And that would cause you To have peace and rest in Christ, knowing. that he did it all and you're trusting what he did. And you're safe with him.

Or. You have to go through ceremonies. Where grace is likened to a substance that works upon you and in you to make you. uh able to be with God provided you maintain that. ceremonial procedures throughout your life.

Dead silence. It was really interesting and afterwards I prayed That by God's grace, that the words of truth would sink into the hearts of people. Anyway, not a big deal, not a big deal, but that's what happened.

Alright, now what we do is let's get to Matt from Connecticut. Matt, welcome. You're on the air. Hey Matt, how you doing? Doin' all right, man.

Hanging in there. So, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. There's a view that I think I first heard about it. From Chuck Messler, I'll um On one of his videos, I was hearing about it. It's called the Outer Darkness View.

Have you ever heard of that before? Um I well, I used to study under uh Missler in person. and listen to hundreds and hundreds of hours of his tapes, but I don't I'm not familiar with that particular phrase.

So, I am going to read from. I looked this up with. like Google AI, so what what I'm reading is AI, but the way It's described here as, um like the key elements are of it. It says Missler firmly believed that Outer Darkness mentioned in versus like Matthew twenty five verse thirty is not health. Instead, he defined it as a real literal place or suburb just outside the city.

Or excuse me, just outside the light you enjoy of God's presence during the 1,000-year millennial kingdom. And he he tries to While eternal salvation is a free gift by grace, ruling in the millennium is conditional upon believers' faithfulness. And the carnal, unfaithful, or unrepentant Christians will suffer loss of the judgment seat of price. And according to Misler, these unfaithful Christians will be excluded from the marriage supper of the Lamb. They will spend thousand years in this outer darkness to learn sanctification through deep regret and remorse.

weeping and gnashing your teeth. We're calling we got a we got a break, so hold on. I'm gonna respond to that, okay?

So hold on, brother. Hey folks, we write back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All Robin, welcome back to the show.

So let's get back on with Matt from Connecticut.

Alright brother, are you still there? I'm still here.

Okay, so I did a little bit of research during the break, and from what you said.

So his view is basically that That during the millennial reign of Christ, which he believes is a thousand years, that carnal Christians won't be ruling and reigning with him during that, but they're going to be in an outside area. Um and kind of in a a holding pattern. Is that what he was saying? Is that correct? Yeah, I I think it it sounds kind of like You know, some people that are critics of the view have called it like a Protestant purgatory where.

Right. You know, there's They have to be sanctified. And for that thousand years, it sounds like they're going to be weeping and gnashing of. He interprets the leaping and that you see that those are. Christians that were unfaithful and didn't really live Uh appropriately.

During the last No, I'm here. Here's the thing. I studied under Missler. I learned a great deal from him. I absolutely did.

I absolutely disagreed with his pre-tribulation rapture view. I was actually kind of. Surprised that someone of great such great knowledge would hold that view. And uh Because there are just certain things. I'm sorry.

It's just, you know, anyway. But then I was okay. You know, he was great, and I learned a great deal.

So this idea of the outer darkness It occurs. I'm looking at it in the scriptures right now. The first occurrence is in Matthew 8:12. And I always believe, use the terms in the Scripture to see what they're going to say. And it says the sons of the kingdom will be cast well back up.

I say to you, many will come from the east. and the West reclined at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place of the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now, the critical issue here is the sons of the kingdom. Uh What kingdom is being spoken of? And it says the kingdom of heaven. and that the sons of the kingdom would be cast out.

So, this is a difficult thing to just immediately understand, and I'm not saying I understand it here perfectly. But the idea of the kingdom of heaven and what is it, I've done a study on kingdom of heaven. what it is. And Let's just say that there's evidence. I won't get into it.

And it says, But the son of the kingdom, who's that? The king if the kingdom means that it are the saved people, then the sons of the kingdom are cast into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth. If that's the the how he interprets it, I could see why he would say that. I don't believe that's what the text says. The sons of the kingdom can be understood to be members covenantally.

And we go to Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 to talk about the issue, the people in the covenant, who are breaking the covenant, even though it's the new covenant. And so I've never heard him talk about covenant. That I recall, I mean, he probably did, but I don't recall him ever diving deeply into covenant or covenant theology, but always dispensational. And I think that hamstrung him. I think it it weakened his his positions in a lot of areas, but that's just my opinion.

And so that's where that is in Matthew 8:12. And so, what I would say is, in order to do a sufficient study, what is it to be the sons of the kingdom? Because they're cast into outer darkness.

Well, it looks like hell is cast into outer darkness, too. But anyway. Um And it says weeping and gnashing of teeth, that's usually someone in great anguish. And you could look up what does it mean to be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I would look that up too and see.

So We have the phrase occurring also in Matthew 22, 13, When the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes. And he said to him, Now this is eschatological, the end of times.

Okay. He said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes? The man was speechless. The king said to the servant, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for many are called, but few are chosen.

This is salvific.

So, the issue here of outer darkness seems to be, from the text of what Jesus himself is saying, is that place of eternal damnation. And uh That's a problem. And so I don't see his interpretation fitting into that. I don't see his interpretation fitting into that.

Okay, I think it's legitimate.

Alright. Thank you. Yeah, I no, I I figure I figured that you um weren't going to agree with it, but I was just I was basically just calling to see like what you thought of That idea and how I was going to ask, have you heard of it before? No, not that particular view. I've studied under him, like I said, for Years and listen to his tapes, and so you know, that's okay.

That's all right. Yeah, and what? But he was great. He I learned a lot from him. Absolutely.

Yeah, I've listened to him. I haven't listened to him a lot, but I've listened to him. a little bit and and I always thought he seemed like a You know, he seemed like a guy who really loved the Bible, loved God. I I I I agree with you. I always thought I I always had a good impression of Chuck Mitchell.

Oh yeah. Yeah, I've I've learned a great deal from him and I'm thankful for so much. that he has done. And there are people I've talked to who have said the same thing about me personally. Matt, I've learned so much from you, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't agree with everything you say. And I'm fine with that. It just says, I learned a great deal from Missler, and I don't agree with everything he says, and that's okay. And so, um We don't It's it's okay. It's all right.

I disagree with him on that. Sure. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate your time. All right, brother.

Well, God bless. All right, now. Coincidentally, I glanced up. to um Yeah, that's I'm talking the the video's not working. Oh I see why now.

I glance up to the rumbled chat room. And uh I just happened to see this paragraph. Does Matt have a plan to keep Carm up and running long after he's gone? And believe it or not, I've been actually talking about that with people recently. And I'm gonna talk about it because It is nothing's decided, and I'll be 70 at the end of the year and been working on Carm for 30 years.

In October, it'll be 31 years. I'm getting older.

So, what's going to happen to carm? I've had this discussion with several people in the past year or two or three. And you know, I've been trusting God. to provide someone. And uh I'm going to just be generic.

I have a couple of people in mind. I think would be good who could then take over the ministry and run it. And I was talking to somebody else about this very thing and that other person suggested that we find someone who's like me. What? Watch.

Yeah.

If my wife were still around and she'd heard me say that, her eyes would bug out and go, what? Coming another person like you. Um And so I kind of chuckled at that. And he said, you know, someone who's a go-getter, someone who does, someone who goes after these heresies, who knows their theology. And uh And I know a couple people who fit that bill.

And so It's funny that it just came up in the past basically 24 hours, 248 hours. and it's been on my mind been thinking about it, talked to someone literally today about it as well. And just moving forward and seeing how things will be done and stuff. And so, for the person that's asking that question, does man have a plan? Not yet.

except there is in place a generic uh plan. that if something happens uh then You know what? will offer to some individual, but we're gonna try and work some other stuff out. in more particulars. Hey, there's the music.

So I'm gonna take a break.

So may the Lord bless you be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, you can. It's easy. Just dial 877-2072276. Tonight, I'm planning, we'll see what really happens, but I'm planning to be on TikTok tonight, opening up a room at 5 p.m., probably 5 p.m. range.

Uh five or five uh five or five thirty went maybe to straight. No, it'll be 7. Oh, oh no, I'm thinking.

So I use Eastern Time because I just, that's what I've been doing for years.

So either 7 p.m.

Now wait. Man, I gotta think this out.

So it'll be 9 p.m. or 9:30 p.m. Eastern time. I'm gonna open up the room.

So it'll be 7 p.m. or 7:30 my time, probably, then I'll open up the room and do that.

So if you're interested, maybe what I'll do. Hmm. Damn. I wonder how that would work.

Okay, they could open the room. And uh f see if there's a way to provide a link uh on the calendar. I wonder, is there a way to find a link for a tick Talk. live. I wonder if there's a way to do that.

I can put it on the calendar. You guys can come in. Just a thought. Anyway, so there you go. Hey, I just want to give you a heads up.

Just got. Just got a heads up. You know, a lot of people call in from the show, and people will do that. And every down and then we'll talk about prayer requests. And Scott texted me on my phone.

He's called in a few times. We've met in person, he's a good guy. His mom is being rushed right now to an ambulance, to the hospital. Her blood pressure is way, way too high. And there's an infection and some other stuff.

Just pray for it, okay? And just. It's for Scott's mom, okay? Scott's mom.

So blood pressure real high is a serious issue. I would just recommend that you pray for.

Okay, you can remember her if you can do that. Um which reminds me about the high blood pressure thing. When I went to Turkey last time, you know, twelve hour flight, I didn't move much and I had to go to the emergency room in Turkey. And my blood pressure was like 190 over 130 or something like that. and they rushed me in.

And I learned later. Everything worked out, but it was because I hadn't been moving enough and got some swelling in my feet and some legs and caused blood pressure problems. And they said, you're supposed to move. I go, okay. Anyway, so things are fine.

But I learned that the high blood pressure issue can cause some serious problems. Russia blood vessels in your brain cause strokes, can cause heart problems. It's a very serious thing. That's why they rushed me in. They rushed me in.

I spent four and a half hours in a Turkish emergency room. And it was quite an interesting experience because I noticed that the emergency room, the floors needed to be swept. It was one big room with lots of beds, not like the emergency rooms I used to work at and stuff like that. You know, registering patients in the hospital. They had individual areas you could go in.

No, this was one big room, and there was stuff on the floor, the walls needed to be painted, and there was a worker fixing a computer who was yelling and arguing at a patient. who's in a bed next to him. And it was, it was, uh, it was an interesting experience. And then after everything. My blood pressure dropped down and and uh They let me go, but uh, it was interesting, so I'd like to tell the story.

I was in a Turkish ER. How about that? All right, let's get to Harry from Chicago. Harry, welcome. You're on the air.

How's it going, Matt? I've been following your work for a little while, but Uh, being a long time subscriber on YouTube, and I just saw that you went live earlier, so I thought I'd stop in. All right. So, uh, what do you got? Yeah, one of the guys in the chat moderating on YouTube mentioned that I should hop in.

I just converted to Catholicism last these there, and he mentioned that I should hop in to the stream and Talk to you about it. All right. What's the reason or reasons? Give me the top two or three reasons that you. uh converted to Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, uh probably the number one reason uh was uh the belief about The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This was something that I. looked into regarding the early church, something that Protestant scholars have presented different research for, JND Kelly on early Christian doctrine being one of them. And I was convinced that the early church uh the early Christians uh believed in um the real presence of Christ and uh treated Uh the Eucharist or The bread and wine.

So let me ask you some questions then about this. Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Eucharist, that I'm trying to word this correctly correctly that the uh bread sub the substance, the essence of bread. is no longer bread, but the actual body of Jesus. That would be the view. It would retain the accidents of bread, so it would appear.

as bread, but the actual substance essence Would no longer be and would be going. I'm familiar with it. Just asking, that's what you affirm.

Okay, so how about if I run some stuff by you?

Okay? Okay. All right, this is what Jesus says. I'm going to ask you some questions, okay? He says in John 6.

47. Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the men in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that you may eat of it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread also which I give for you for the life of the world is my flesh.

So would you say This is John 6. I read John 6 Uh 47 through 51.

So Would you say that this is ev uh is proof? From Jesus Himself, that the bread is actually his body. Would you say that? Yeah, I would say this is pointing to the future institution. That makes sense with the walls upper.

So here we go. Let's say the bread is his physical body, and that's what he means.

Now look let's go through this. This is the bread which come down out of heaven. Is the bread his physical body? Is the bread? The manna from heaven, Jesus is the living bread.

Okay, so here's the question. Since you've agreed that the bread is his body. That's what the Eucharist position is, transubstantiation. he said the bread came not out of heaven. He says, I'm the living bread coming down of heaven.

If the bread is his body, the question is, did his body come down out of heaven? Uh I mean his body came from Mary's womb. That's right.

So his physical body did not come down from heaven. Right? To simple. Uh no, yeah, not in that circumstance.

Okay. So the bread which came down out of heaven is not his physical body? It's something else.

Well, no, I think what Jesus is saying is that the Father from heaven sent him, and he came from heaven. through the vessel Mary. I know that. Hold on though. Let's do okay, we're just focusing on one area.

This is the bread, which you have said is his physical body. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven. He cannot be talking about his physical body. Because the physical body did not come out of heaven. This is a bread which comes down out of heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

The Catholics routinely say it's the Eucharistic supper, which the wafer, the bread, you have to eat in order to live, otherwise, you're going to die. He talked about his physical body. But he says the bread came down out of heaven, and if you say it's a physical body, you have a problem. He goes on, I'm a living bread. He's saying that he's using figurative language there.

Oh, I'm glad that you brought that up. You brought it up. that he's bringing he's using figurative language. You saw it. He says, I'm the living bread came down out of heaven.

It's not his physical body. He says if any one eats of this bread he'll live for ever. And the bread which I also give for the life of the world is my flesh. He's not talking about his physical flesh. Being that bread that came down out of heaven, because that's impossible.

He is speaking. Who hear him, at least like they interpret it the way that I'm interpreting it, which is that they respond, this is a hard saying. You can hear it. Yes, but you're not listening. I want you to think.

Hold on. I want you to think. Okay, we'd get to that verse next. But if Jesus himself said He's the bread came down out of heaven, and the life of the world that He gives is His flesh, the bread also which I give for the life of the world is my flesh, then he's not speaking literally, is he? He can't be.

Would you agree? No, I I I I disagree. I don't think the point of what Jesus is saying here is. saying um exactly Okay, we got a break. We got a break.

Hold on, hold on. We got a break. Hold on. Okay, I want you to think about it. I'm gonna ask you after the break, okay?

Because is he speaking literally? If he's speaking literally, then the bread is his body, he's bought out of heaven. That's not true. It can't be literal.

Well, I want you to respond to that after the break. Hold on, folks. We'll be right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Harry from Chicago. You still there? Yes, I'm still here, Matt.

All right. So I'm just trying to to show you something. That in the sector of Scripture, John 6:50 through 51, he says he's the bread, the bread is his flesh. He's speaking figuratively, not literally. Right?

No, I w I would disagree. I would say that it is both true that Jesus came down from heaven. taking the form of a servant And uh It's also true that he was born of the Virgin Mary. I don't think he's talking in that. Context.

We agree, but he says the flesh is his body And then he says which is the bread. Right? The manna, the bread. It came down out of heaven. It cannot be his physical body he's talking about.

You have a problem in that because you've committed yourself emotionally and mentally to this position, you have to search for something to make it fit. And that's what you're doing. But I mean You can say that I've committed myself emotionally and mentally to it, but I previously was not committed emotionally to transubstantiation or a belief in the real presence.

So it was. Through consulting different Protestant authors and early church writers, I came to the position that. Christ is truly present. I do think it is important though That we don't explain away Jesus' teaching in John 6, such that it no longer becomes a hard saying. Um the people who are hearing Jesus in John six It's a hard single thing with that.

It's a hard same because they were thinking. That he was talking about his actual flesh because that would have violated scripture. You're not to eat the flesh of the bride in ye flesh in Leviticus seventeen fourteen.

So They would have violated scripture. He wasn't speaking literally, it was not his literal body. And so why would Jesus not correct them, but instead it says after this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him? Why why wouldn't Jesus correct? Yeah.

because there's many places in Scripture where Jesus does not correct people. Many places.

Okay, so in John, for example, John 2, 19 through 21. He says, Destroy this temple, three days I will raise it up. And they said, It took 56 years to build a temple. Are you going to raise it up in three days? And John the Apostle says he was speaking in the temple of his body.

In the text, Jesus doesn't correct anybody. Peter asked Jesus to explain the parable about defilement. Jesus mildly rebukes him. Are you so lacking in understanding? Matthew 15.

In Mark chapter 9, Jesus tells the disciples to tell no one until he rises. Right. They discuss themselves what rising from the dead means, and Jesus doesn't clarify it for them. In John chapter 4, Jesus offers the Samaritan woman living water. She thinks he means physical water.

And it goes on. There are many places where Jesus does not correct people.

Okay? He lets them have their false understanding.

Now Okay. Why would you say that he does that? Is that the process of. election Yes. Those who don't have eyes to see.

and ears to hear. not granted it by God, will believe the false doctrines. Because he Don't correct them. In fact, he speaks in parables so people will not be forgiven. Mark 4:10 through 12, he specifically says that's why he speaks in parables.

So they will not be forgiven.

Okay, so I'd like to get your thoughts on this because. You know, we like to rely on the ancient Near Eastern interpretation of what the Old Testament text says. Who says?

Well, no, I'm I'm well, certainly that I that I've been taught the historical grammatical interpretation being the superior way to exegete scripture. And so we will consult the ancient Near Eastern um context, the the Jewish understanding of what the Old Testament text says. But then in terms of a passage like John chapter six, Um we have Early recipients of the gospel, people who would have been reading it for the first time, and they interpret this passage. in a different way than you're interpreting it right now, such as Ignatius of Antioch, we don't have to call him a church father, but if we look at Ignatius of Antioch, he says the Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. And he is someone who was alive during the time of the Apostles and likely during the time of Jesus when he was on earth.

And so Why why is it that we Wouldn't help ourselves by consulting How the early Christians would have understood this passage, but instead rely on. mere our own interpretations.

Well, um one of the problems that you are are encountering here. is that um you you're not really looking at all the church fathers. Athenagoras, who di who was who was born in one thirty three. said it is unlawful to partake of the flesh of men. But if it be unlawful even to speak of this, and if for men to partake of the flesh of men is a thing most hateful and abominable, Augustine, who died in four thirty.

He also says the elements were resemblances of the actual body and blood. And I can read you quote for quote for quote.

So I I will Hold on. I will I will say Athenagoras there is um totally riot And he's not talking about the the Roman doctrine of transubstantiation there. Transubstantiation does not entail cannibalism or the physicalism that yes, it does. I can prove logically that your position or the Catholic Church's position is impossible. I can prove it logically.

I can do it with scripture easily. But I'm showing you, Clement of Alexandria says he also partook of the wine. And he says, Take, drink, this is my blood, the blood of the vine. He figuratively calls the word shed for many the remission of sins. The holy stream of gladness, he's referring to it as the fruit of the vine, not his actual blood.

He does this several times. You can find many examples here, and I'm sure you can. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You said the church fathers held the position you hold. I'm showing you that they don't.

Some of them don't, some do, some don't. That's all I'm showing you.

Well, you have shown me passages where in out of out of context they may support your interpretation. How do you know they're active? How do you know that? Maybe they're in context. I don't know.

But the truth is that I have not surveyed every single church father that has written on the Eucharist. But what I have done is I've researched the people who have put in a lot of time, such as J.M.D. Kelly, who have written extensive summaries about what did the early children have done. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on, buddy.

Hold on. You just said it. You didn't do the research. You depended on somebody else who. Will give you an opinion of what it is.

You didn't do the research. You need to do your own research. You need to do your own research. I'm consulting scholars. Like, I can go to the primary sources myself, but I don't know the original languages that they wrote in.

Harry, you need to go to the original documents that you're saying. Go do your own research, and you'll find out. And not all the church fathers agree with each other on this. That's the point. Do your own.

Wow, just do your own research. You haven't done it. That's the point. So, what I'm saying is that there are thousands of documents that I can consult. From the early Christian period, the early church period, as you might.

And I have, and I have read many of them, but to say that I've read all of them would be lying. That is where it is helpful to consult. Scholars who have spent their lives. Very I keep telling you the same thing, you're making excuses. Go do your own research.

You'll find that not all the Church Fathers agree with transubstantiation. That's all I'm saying. Go do your research. You'll figure out. The agreement here is how effectively we research this technology.

Harry. You you have to say yes, that's correct. You need to do your own research. That's what you should be doing.

Okay? Again, I didn't say I didn't do my own research. I said I haven't read every single writing the early church has produced, and I don't think it's fair to hold me to that standard. You better hold it to your standard, because this is eternal salvation. I just showed you where Jesus Himself was speaking figuratively about.

Have you honestly read every single writing in the early church? Harry, Harry, look. Look. I've gone to change. Can you answer that?

Look, you're starting to irritate me. Look, you're starting to become irritating. This is what Catholics do. They over talk. and they don't want to listen, they don't want to engage in the actual argument.

So this I don't recommend you do that.

Now, Harry, are you there? Yeah, I am.

Now, what have I asked you to do? Go research, read your own stuff. That's all I've said. Go do it. You don't have to read every single word from every single church father.

That's not a necessity. You can go to such things as the Catholic Church Father Scripture search engine. You can go look at that. Put in verses. See what the church fathers say.

Do your research and find the originals. That's what I'm saying. That is not research, and if you think that is, that's hilarious. To go and just look in a database. For different verses Like, that is not what research entails.

We need to consult multiple scholars on the subject matter who are familiar with these texts. How do you know which scholars to trust? How do you know which scholars to trust? Well, how do you know which translations to trust? Dude, dude, look, Harry, you're not answering any questions.

You're evading. Look, I showed you the church fall. Harry, Harry, hold on. Harry, hold on. Harry.

Okay, I gotta mute him. Look, this is what happens a lot with people. They don't listen. They have, it's called, I call it the cult mind. This is what's exactly what's happening.

You can hear it. is no no rationality. there is exaggeration and misrepresentation, and constant interruption. A hairy? I can mute you any time.

Okay. So'je saying I know where you can go to look at what the church father says on any particular verse. and you can read the entire context. Is that a problem? No, I I think it's a blessing.

I think it's a blessing. Then do what I've done. I've put in specific verses in the Church Father Scripture search engine. Put in specific verses. And when you do that, like I did on John 6:50.

And it goes to the Latin Christianity. Its founder Tertullian, Apologetic, and Answers of the Jews. I click on the link. and it opens up to the actual writings of what he said, and then I can go and read the context. It's not hard to do.

And when you do that, you find out. Hey, the church fathers didn't always agree with each other. That's the point. Now we're out of time. I'm going to tell you something.

I want you to call back tomorrow, and I will prove to you logically. That the Roman Catholic view cannot be true. I'll prove it to using logic. from the facts. That can't be true.

Are you willing to do that? We don't have time now. You open to doing that? I'm likely not going to do that, Matt, but I really appreciate this conversation. It's not because I'm afraid or anything like that, but I get it.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea. I'm going to have 15 seconds. I'm going to leave you with this. Roman Catholicism preaches a false gospel and it promotes idolatry, and you won't find salvation in it. I do hope you would call back another time and we can talk, okay?

But I appreciate the conversation. No, folks. I've had this kind of conversation a thousand times and they can become obstreperous. We'll be right back. I'll be right back.

We'll be back tomorrow. Lord Welling, Lord Welling tomorrow. And if you want to. Catch me on TikTok tonight. Try this.

Go to carn.org forward slash calendar in a couple of hours. And let's see if I worked out the particulars of the link up there. May the Lord bless you. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Have a great evening.

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