Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carn.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live if. If you want to give me a call, you can 8772-072276. You can also send me an email. All you do is address it to info at carm.org.

Info at carm.org. Put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question. One of those, we can get to it and check things out. All right, now. Just want to let you guys know that I have really Been working hard, except for yesterday, I take Sundays off.

But and even then I cheated a little bit. But um So, I've just been working real hard on some arguments, on some scriptures, analysis, on all kinds of things. And uh If you were to go to Carm. You can look up Are We Justified by Faith When We Have Faith or After? And another article, Justification: A Greek Exegetical Defense of Sola Fide.

That article right there has taken me days to produce and a lot of analysis. A lot of work, just a lot. But what I'm trying to do is demonstrate from Scripture that our justification, our standard before God, is by faith alone in Christ alone, not by any expression of our faith or anything that comes afterwards, because this is the very heart of the gospel. It is what separates damnation from salvation and from the liars, the false teachers, from the true teachers. And the false teachers are the Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, in that they teach salvation is not by faith alone, in Christ alone, but by faith and the expression of your faith as works and varying things you've got to do.

And I've really gotten into this looking into the Greek. And looking, and I explain more details later, but really looking at it. And I'm going to tell you, I have found some stuff out. And I am absolutely even more convinced now. Justifications by faith alone in Christ alone.

You can't add anything, and that these false teachers. that hold to fal salvation by of Their works are lost. And the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church both teach a false gospel. And I'm sorry to say it. They do.

And uh i they do, they add works to salvation. And the Bible says no.

So anyway, I've done that. I'm working on another article juxtaposing Paul's statements. I even got that open.

Well, yeah, let's see. Yeah, how does Paul address faith and works? I've gone through. I don't know how many verses. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 verses.

Actually, just more, but 18 sets perkapiece. I've gone through and analyzed. Showing a contrast between faith and works by Paul. This is important, ladies and gentlemen. How are you made right before God?

The simple gospel is this: Jesus died on the cross, he rose from the dead. You put your faith and your trust in what Jesus did. You put your faith, your trust, what he did. That faith alone. Is nothing to justify you, save you before God.

Now it's in the true faith, okay, true Christ, not the Jesus of Mormonism, not the Jesus of Jehovah's Witnesses. and not the gospel of uh Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. But if you believe and you trust what Jesus did. That alone is enough to save you. And justify you.

And I've got the scriptures, I've got the stuff. I'm still going to be having to memorize all kinds of things for arguments and being able to repeat it quickly and easily. And so I have to develop, it's another project: develop myself a little cheat sheet because I've analyzed like a bunch of verses and I just can't memorize all this stuff. But this one is the present, passive, indicative, participle form of this blah, blah, blah. You know, it's hard to do.

So I need to need a lot of help. Oh. Hey, why don't we get to the callers? Let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome.

you're on the air.

So, hey, man, good to talk with you today. Hey, man. How are you doing, buddy? I'm actually doing very well. And You know, a situation I shared with you is actually why I'm calling concerning spiritual warfare.

I can't properly I can't necessarily identify it verbatim, but I know when I'm in it. And uh You know, the the short version is my my wife and I told we had a little issue in I felt like I was woken up at 4.15 this morning. And it felt like God was telling, Hey, go to see your wife and When I got there, She had been trapped in the bathroom having some medical issues and unable to to get any help and everyone around her asleep. And when I got there, and I knew that's exactly why God woke me up. I can't prove that.

She said, Why did you come? How did you come? 'Cause I didn't have my phone on me and Did one of my sisters text you? I said, No, God woke me up. That's the best I could tell you.

She said she had been praying. forgot to send some help and that happened and anyone who's had those experiences can verify. But Does the Bible actually define what spiritual warfare actually is. we were able to clean up a few misunderstandings.

So But that's why I say spiritual warfare. But yeah, I don't see in the Bible where it's clearly defined what it is exactly. No, it doesn't. It doesn't define exactly, but it does say in Ephesians 5: we wrestle not against power, flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities of darkness.

So it's saying that there are. levels of darkness of demonic forces we're warring against, they're real. I incorporated this into my first novel, The Influence, and the spiritual battle, spiritual darkness, and things like this. Because it's a real thing. Angels are here to protect, and fallen forces are here to hurt.

So there's a battle going on in that realm, and we need to be involved with it here in this realm. And I am sure. that the Lord uh woke you up. And she was praying. and he spoke into your heart, woke you up, and you went in there and took care of your wife.

Because we talked yesterday off the air and stuff, I know. I don't want to say too much about what you told me, but. Obviously, she needed you. And uh So good stuff, man. Good stuff.

It's true. Yes, and everything was clear. We're all on the same page. It was a Miscommunications through text and whatnot, which the enemy has a field day with misunderstandings, but Yeah, everything is good now. Everybody is on the same page.

You know, there's. No issues in in with anyone, but I was like, man, that did we I know it felt like the enemy Hit our house because everybody seemed to spontaneously have a problem with each other. Even some siblings that weren't even there, and then now we're all talking about prayer and scripture, and now everybody's. Fall in love again. I was like, you know what?

We were in warfare.

Something happened. That was not normal. That's right. And I want to say that, you know, we talked over the phone, and I thought how you were handling things was very good, very mature, and it was a difficult situation. And you were being very godly and very caring.

That's point one, and point two. I thought it was from the Lord when Happy is a friend of ours. Everybody, a friend of mine I've known, we call him Haps. He got a nickname, Happy, and he call him Haps. Uh and uh he lives about uh forty minutes from me.

here. But um when he texted me And I knew We had to get him involved in the conversation. And so, with your permission, I got him in on the phone, filled him in really fast, and then. He was a blessing, wasn't he? Absolutely.

And I will say, you hit on something that actually turned out to be more correct. Pain. pain being A major influencer in just changing personalities because we actually found that my wife had an open wound that got worse as I spoke with you, and it was. She had been leaking some kind of fluid for hours, and there was nobody around to help. And it, yeah, it was pretty horrific looking.

I've never seen a wound do that, but. You know, praise God, we were able to get some help and it didn't turn into an infection and sepsis and all that. But you know, everything God put into place, but It it defies description the way he says to fight. You know, but like you said, our our weapons, you know, are not carnal and That's easy to say because you feel like you want to go carnal sometime, but Just trusting and relying on him, his, yeah, I just got to be real. Trusting and relying on him.

It's a good, great phrase because I totally get it. Um yeah, yeah, but uh is the only thing that works, yeah. But you know, we did talk about that yesterday, you know, about your wife being in pain. My wife, you know, my late wife, who pain changed her. It changed her.

And this sweet woman became difficult. And, you know, and what do you do? You kind of like to stare at the walls, and which direction do you walk? What do you do? You don't know what to do or say.

And you have this spouse who's just, it's not her. But it's there she is, and she's saying things and behaving in ways that It just doesn't work and it doesn't make sense. Like I told you over the phone, I I had this phrase, you know, it it's it was the pain talking. And uh It really can s change you. It really can change you.

Yeah. No.

Well, and I will say my and I actually had mentioned you by name, sheets. She doesn't mess her loose in the car. yet, but I um said here, spoke to a friend I trust And uh he has some very you know, godly advice. And she said, Hey, you know what? I feel better now that you're here.

So I know it's spiritual. This is just for you being around. I can deal with what I'm going through. But yes, she was in a tremendous amount of pain. Oh man, I am sorry to hear that.

And and you went to the hospital, right? You had to go to Oh Dark 30 kind of thing, right? Oh yes. went to the ER hours before we were supposed to and Uh she was supposed to see a A surgeon on Wednesday or Thursday. They were hoping not to do another surgery, but after the pictures they took.

In the CT scan this morning, the surgeon uh stopped what she was doing and said, Hey, um, why don't you come in right now?

So she's dealing with that right now and Just praying is not anything more serious than Then it has to be.

So she's undergoing surgery right now? No, she's with the surgeon now. I didn't get any messages. I have my own appointment to keep, but I. I understand that she probably does not need another surgery because I don't feel like she can handle it.

So she's young. She's okay for now as far as I know, but just you know, just seeing God work in the ways that defy description is enough to to just continue to blow my faith way up. Yeah. Good man.

Well, I was glad that we talked yesterday, and you texted me about prayer, and I just called you and. And then, coincidentally, Haps texted me at the same time and knowing his history and part of our conversation, I knew he needed to get involved and You know, it was just a blessing to see how God worked. And so. Uh and you're l dude, man, I'm gonna just tell you. I thought you were Just being a godly man.

Just a real godly man trying to deal best you could with the situation.

So. You know, praise God for you, man. Yeah, I think that's what we all need to do, is just Had to pray about being a godly man, of course, not giving in to. flesh, but you know, God God's ways have always Worked way better than anything I can conceive of.

So I'll mess it up if you leave me to my own devices. Yeah, I got that one stra I know that one too. God's never taken my advice, and so I've moved out on my own a few times. hasn't worked out too well.

Well good, man. Good. Yeah, just let me know. I I sure will and then I'll just keep you updated and Continue to be learning about spiritual warfare. It's a fascinating thing to watch God work and you can't explain it.

You just know it works. It's a real thing, and part of the reason you know it's spiritual warfare is you called me, and then HAPS. I really believe it was a God thing. Because Haps and I hadn't talked in a while, and all of a sudden, right then. He's texting me.

And so I just knew it was from God. The spiritual warfare works both ways, okay?

So God was involved. Praise God, brother. All right. God bless you, Matt. God bless you, ma'am.

God bless. That was good stuff. Can't give you other details, but you know, God really did some good stuff, and it was good. May the Lord bless you. Hey, and him.

We'll be right back after these messages. Please, stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, it's easy. We have one open line: 87720722072722722222. seven six. Let's get to let's see, that'll be Kent. For North Carolina, Kent, welcome you on the air.

Hi Ken, how you how you doing Matt? Doing alright. Hanging in there, man. What do you got, buddy? What do you got?

All righty. Hey, Max, I'm gonna ask you a question. How do you feel about these fraternities and these sororities and the Masonic largest of these churches that's running our churches today? What do you think about the Masonic larging their bones and scores? fraternity, the sorority that are of Overseers of the church.

I'm not sure what connection of the church you're talking about, but Masonic stuff is Christians shouldn't be involved with it.

Sororities and fraternities, it would just depend on what they are, what the rules are, what their practices are. And I d I that's other than I believe can't tell you. I don't believe.

So, you don't think they are evil, they are kind of sold out, and it's all. I'd have to look at each one. I can't say a fraternity. What if you had a fraternity at a Christian? Uh college.

Where a bunch of guys, for example, are living and they agree to have Bible study once a week. They agree to. uh treat women honestly and with integrity, protecting them. What's wrong with that? That'd be good.

You can't just say all fraternities are bad.

Well, the Greek, a lot of this stuff, Greek mythology was idolatry. They said they're worshiping these idolatries, a form of idolatry, worshiping another God. Why don't you respond to what I actually said? It seems to me that you just ignored it.

Okay. No, no, I'm not a null, I'm just saying you're saying it's all right, but I disagree. I didn't say it was all right. I said I can't speak for every situation. And then I specifically gave you an idea.

What if there was a Christian fraternity in a Christian campus and I gave you specifics? And then you went back to they're all bad.

So you ignored what I said. No, I'm talking about the Greek. I'm talking about the Greek fraternities are the baller score. is what is fraternity is. What I'm saying, I'm not talking about Christianity.

I'm talking about these Creek mythologies, these Creek sororities and fraternities. There's just a tradition to have a word out of Greek. Greek letters, you know, the alpha beta or the alpha gamma, whatever it is. and the delta chi. Those are just Greek letters.

So, you can have that in a Christian fraternity. What if their letters were alpha omega? representing Christ. In a Christian place. What about that?

Would that be okay?

Well, there ain't no such thing as Christ. Christ is also a pagan.

Okay, you know what? There's no such thing all. I have difficulty dealing with people who can't think critically, can't think logically. You're so brainwashed. That it's just impossible to have a rational discussion with you.

You're apparently not able to actually have a rational discussion. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

Okay. Okay, can I ask you about the Easter uh Easter? The fraternity God coming up Sundays. on Sunday. They have misleading a lot of people for this Easter hiding eggs What is all that we know that's not as not of the father.

Hiding an egg is sinful? Are you saying hire any guy?

Well, what do they have to do with the reason of the Savior? What do they have to even do? Do you know what they're af actually represents? Look, you make a logical error. A genetic fallacy is one of them.

The origin of something is bad, so therefore later on it's bad.

So The tradition is to do Easter eggs. What if you have, as my wife would do, is put little eggs around the house or outside and little candies and stuff like that in there? And we talked about the resurrection of Christ, and it's explained, you know, to go out and find these eggs because it was any big deal, okay? That's all.

So what? You don't understand? You need to understand something. I'm going to teach you something. I need to listen to this.

Okay, because you need to do some thinking. You're not doing any thinking. Look, can a Christian eat, can a Christian eat meat that's been sacrificed to pagan gods? Can they eat it? 1 Corinthians 10.

1 Corinthians 10, Paul says you can. You need to go to 1 Corinthians 10, and he says you can eat meat sacrificed to idols because these things are really nothing.

Now, for conscience's sake, he says if you're bothered by it, then don't do it. And for the sake of the conscience of others, you want to stumble them, then don't do it. But you're free to be able to do that. That's 1 Corinthians 10. That's Paul the Apostle's teaching.

You need to understand biblical theology. You don't understand. You guys don't understand biblical theology. You don't understand what it means to think critically.

So you sit there's all right to eat pork. Yeah. I didn't say that. What did I say? What did I specifically say?

What would I what I ask you? What did I ask you? Come on. Eat eat meats that sacrifices sacrifice. That's all it is.

I corrected you. Your answer was wrong. I corrected you from scripture and showed you where you could go to find it.

Okay? Then you say, oh, it's okay to eat pork. I didn't say that. See, this is how you guys don't think critically. You don't know what it means to think critically.

I think we take things out of context and a lot of this stuff. Is non-biblical. It's not biblical. A lot of things that we've been taught have been lies. How about this?

Go read. Go read. Go read 1 Corinthians 10. About Paul saying it's okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, then you come back and tell me why Paul the Apostle is wrong.

Okay? But who do we listen to? Paul, I the one that What you need to do, you need to. You need to accept what Paul the Apostle said because Jesus. Called him as an apostle.

In Acts chapter 9. Jesus approved of Paul, and he Paul's teaching this.

Alright, so you need to answer it.

So look at 1 Corinthians 10. What are you talking about? Look at er are you going to look at 1 Corinthians 10? You're going to read Paul's words.

Okay. So what have you done? What are they talking about? The good father fanned his father. We're just going to move along.

We're just going to move along. Because you need to understand a principle, and if you can't grow in your understanding of Scripture, there's no point continuing because you're failing to understand God's Word. You're failing to be critical in your thought, to know how to apply God's Word.

So, this is where we just move along at this point.

So, I'm asking you, Kent, to read 1 Corinthians 10 about meat sacrificed to idols. Once you've read that, call me back, okay? That's what we need to do. Let's get to Jamal from North Carolina. Jamal, welcome.

You're on the air. Thank you. Hey, Mr. Maslick, thank you for taking my call, sir. Hey, buddy, any time for you.

What do you got, ma'am?

Well, um This is not a gotcha. You know how I like my gotchas. Respectfully, of course.

Alright. Um a friend of mine was asking about um Dream catchers, or we have a discussion really about dream catchers, crystals. Cultural items that might be candling the spirit realm and all that. And I think you had touched on this before. I think another pastor had So I just kinda gave her what I knew.

but I wanted to have a deeper dive so I try to go to car. And um nothing there on Dream Catchers coming on. Users coming on. Hold on, buddy.

Okay, we got a break.

Okay. Hey folks, be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. Yeah. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Jamal. Jamal, welcome. You're on the air.

Thanks again, sir. Do you need me to go back over it again? Uh I'd say yes or no, but I don't remember what we talked about.

Okay. All right. Working on stuff during the breaks.

Okay, sorry. Um yeah, I know my uh questions could be kind of complicated, so I'll try to work on that.

So, um friend of mine were a friend and I were talking about Uh spiritual items. Maybe open up portals to the spirit realm, and we were talking about dream catchers, crystals, chakras, and also, I think, yoga as well. Um. What are your thoughts on all of that? And is there somewhere that I can refer her to, like Carm or something?

Yeah, uh during the break I actually started working on an article on the idea of dream captures and um So Okay. Christians should not be involved with participating in those or having them. The reason is because dreamcatchers originate with American Indian spirituality. and their spirituality is ungodly, it's pagan.

So, mm. What a dream catcher is supposed to do is filter out bad dreams and allow only good ones to come in. It's a spiritual thing. If someone holds to it and says, Look, I believe this is true, or I suspect it might be true, or I hope it might be true. then that person is involved in the occult.

Now can Christians have something like that if it's just a decoration? Nothing more, they understand is nothing spiritual just a decoration. Then, 1 Thessalonians 5:22 says to abstain from every form of evil. This includes even the appearance of it. A dream catcher is by definition An occult thing involved with American spirituality.

Christians should not be displaying it. because it is the appearance of evil. You know, it's just like Um Let's say, and I don't have. We used to, when my wife was alive, we had a cleaning group come in. My wife.

like that and we made enough money I could do that and it wouldn't didn't cost very much. And a woman would come in once a month or so and just kind of clean up and spend time talking to my wife. And it was, you know, it was good for her.

So after my wife passed, I would no longer allow that because I don't want to be in the house alone with any woman. Because it's the appearance of something like that. Is beyond. We're not even going to have that.

So I told him, won't be needing you anymore. I didn't say why, the spiritual thing, but. Thank you very much. I'll just take care of it myself. And so I don't want that.

If someone were to come over, say a woman came over to visit me. And whatever, you know, how's it been since your wife passed, etc.? Because we have I have female friends who are more friends with my wife than me, but If they stop by, then I would suggest we set out in the back. or out in the front in chairs. not in the house the door's closed.

the appearance of evil. And this was the kind of thing we've got to be careful of as Christians. And this applies to all kinds of areas. Dream Catchers is one of them.

Okay. Okay. All right. That's pretty good.

So, would you say the same thing about crystals? Oh, wait, wait, I have even a better question.

Okay, hurry on that one. I have some African items. um that my dad brought over from Africa. Is there like some kind of spiritual test or somewhere we can know what is pagan and what item is occult, what not? You see, now that you know, since you and I hung out together in North Carolina, now it makes sense why you get all these mental issues and you're weird, you know, like I can see you.

So now it makes sense. You open yourself up for that one. That was a good one. I I had to go through that too. That's all right.

Now, now we went into more of a gray area.

So Um You know, African art, if you like African art, and that's all it is.

Okay, you know, if they were over your place and you had African art everywhere, okay, fine, you know, whatever. Let's just say you had a, I saw a corner where there's a candle lit to an African mask. I'd go, dude, what's going on here? You know, that's that's different.

So what if someone collects Dreamcatchers back to that and they consider it only art? And that's strictly what it is. At that point, Then I'd say, well, it's between you and God as long as it's not causing anybody to suspect anything. See, the issue of African art is it's more, you know, I've seen it in movies and you know, sitcoms or whatever. And hey, look at that, you know, and they have African art.

And so it's just understood to be that without anything associated with it.

Now, here's the problem, though. It's possible that there could be a demonic attachment to certain kinds of objects that might have been used in pagan ceremonies.

So, if you were to get something given to you African art-wise, I would just pray over it, anoint it with oil, you know, very subtly in the back or something like that. Pray over it. Lord, if there's anything attached to it, just ask you to cleanse and whatever. I just see this art and for my heritage or my family or whatever it is, or I just like it, then fine, you know, and then because we're free. Just as in eating meat sacrificed to idols, we're free to do that, but we just got to be careful not to stumble.

anybody in the process and if your conscience is not clear you can't do it.

So it deals with spiritual maturity as well, okay? See ya. That is pretty good. And I heard a show about you going to a house and anointing it with oil.

So when I heard that, Yeah. pray to the Heavenly Father too. Cleans or remove anything that I might have in my house that I don't know of that might be up to Colt, and so on and so forth.

So this is another good reason why I took this to your show. I have a very quick question to ask. I know it's going to be a big topic, but you can give me like a thirty second, forty five second answer. Does the Bible justify the Crusades? The survival what?

Does the Bible justify the Crusades? Justify. It depends on what aspect of the Crusades. Because Jesus says in Luke 22, 36, by a sword.

So we have the implication is we have the right of self-defense. Yeah. And Then Then we have the issue of we're obligated to protect the weak and the helpless.

So if you and I are out going to the store, And you're a taller, bigger guy than I am. But let's just say we're out walking, and we see a guy beating up some woman in an aisle of a store. We both are rushing, we're both on, and we're stopping it, right? Because that's what we're obligated to do.

Now, what if someone comes up to you because you live in the area and I'm visiting? They start calling you names and they're threatening you.

Well, you have the privilege or the right of self-defense, but not necessarily the obligation.

So he's cursing you off for being a Christian. Right. And so you have the right, but not the obligation, of self-defense. But What's really strange, what I've seen in scripture, is we have the obligation to defend others.

Okay, so Um The Crusades. This was an onslaught by the pagan religion known as Islam. the ungodly religion that's authored by the devil, seeking to come in and destroy. At this point, we could make the case, Christians have the obligation to defend against the rise and propag propagation of evil. Which is Islam is what it is.

In its murders, in its tortures, in its. uh uh sticking booty and it's um The R word with the ladies and the femmes that it would do and justify.

So we have to step up. And so, in that sense, yes, it's justified. But to what extent? Because there were some things done in the Crusades that certainly were ungodly by the Christians. And so we can't support that, which is why we say yes and no depending on what aspect of it we're talking about.

And that's how it needs to be addressed. That's amazing. Appreciate it, Matt Slick. Again, love the show. God support him.

He's a resource. Until next time, brother, take care and God bless.

Alright, man. God bless, buddy. Appreciate it. All right. Yeah.

That was Jamal. He's a good guy, actually. We hung out together out last year, last year, I think it was earlier last year. And he was just a great guy. And he's always welcome out here.

And we just got along. It was great. All right, let's get to Oscar from New York. Oscar, welcome. You're on the air.

Yeah, yes, sir. Is immortality a gift to those who are saved? Or to everyone.

Well, it depends what you mean by immortality, because immortality is used like you have everlasting life. Is referred to in John 3:16, for example, and John 10, 27, 28. In reference to the Redeemed, we have eternal life. And the eternal life is that life with Christ. Eternal death.

Is spiritual separation from God because true life and death is in relationship to God, not just whether we're breathing or not.

So, true life and death is related to God, not what man is.

So, what people say, eternal life is, you have to say, God gives eternal life to the people in hell eternally. They're taking the phrase that's not used that way. They're misapplying it. And they're failing to understand what the Bible says. And they're using humanistic philosophy at the same time.

And we have a break, so hold on. Let me go right back. Hey folks, you'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All Robert, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Oscar from New York. Oscar, are you still there?

Yes, I'm sorry.

Okay, so did that help? It's just I'm just kind of a I don't fully understand why God would give a person an immortal soul and live in hell forever. Because the most. The most basic reason is because when we sin, we sin against God. God is the infinite being.

And So therefore the punishment due to sin against the Infinite Being has an infinite effect. An infinite consequence. If someone is annihilated, then the infinite consequence no longer exists, because you can't punish nothingness. It's just nothing.

So because of who it's against.

So if I were to slap my neighbor in the face He might take a swing at me, or whatever might not. And whatever. But if I slap the president in the face, that's a federal level offense, and the severity is far greater.

So, likewise, the offense has a greater consequence based on who it's against.

So when we sin, we sin against God. The consequence is infinite. And we only have two possible options: that you continue to exist eternally or you do not continue to exist eternally. If one of them is negated as being valid, then the other is necessarily true. This is called a disjunctive syllogism.

And it's another way of saying this by the impossibility of the contrary. If you only have two options and one is negated, the other has to be true.

So If we can show that the idea of ceasing to exist. Ceasing to exist doesn't fit eternal punishment, then we remove it, the other one has to be true by default.

So Eternal punishment, if it's non-existence, is not eternal punishment because the Bible talks about punishment being experienced. It never talks about it not being experienced. People go through it.

So, eternal punishment must be by definition only experienced, but nothing but annihilation. is simply nothing. And so that cannot be punishment. Because it's it's nothing There's no punishment related to it, it's just nothing.

Okay. Are you there? Hello? Yeah. Okay, maybe we lost him.

I'm going to hang up on him. I'm going to give you guys an illustration of something to illustrate. Here's an illustration I have not used for maybe a couple of years, and it came back to mind when I was talking to him. about logic and necessity and things like that. Let's just say, and hopefully this will work if it comes out right.

Let's just say that there's a super rich guy. And he loves to collect coins. Rare coins. And he has a special vault uh designed. And It's designed in such a way that the walls are two feet thick, steel, and there's little vents in there for.

for air to get in and out. Uh you know, the vents are very small. You know, you couldn't couldn't even get his hand in there. There's several vents. There's a single light bulb in this room, and there's a single table.

and a single chair. And in this room, the table is welded. to the floor. and the chair is movable. And what he does is, he goes to the vault, And he alone has the combination.

He alone has the iris. uh thing that looks in your eye, he alone has the fingerprint detector. And He has gone through and made sure That nobody else has this. He's changed everything. It's a fact, okay.

that nobody else has the ability to enter into this room. He goes in with a new bag of coins. He opens everything, walks in. And he places this bag of coins in the center of the table, and he quickly leaves because he has a really important meeting to go to.

So a few hours later, he's excited to get back to these rare coins. He does the iris, the breath, the finger print, the code. He goes in there and he discovers something. Inside of that room All the coins are now. outside of the bag.

And they're stacked in a three, in a stack of five, a stack of seven, a stack of eleven, of thirteen. And um 23, so what he and 19 and 23, and he's seeing that they're stacked in prime numbers.

Now No one could have gotten into the room. But we see that the Stack of of coins that they could not have done it themselves. The coins couldn't arrange themselves. An intelligence had to do it. An intelligence had to take the toy the coins out and arrange them in prime number stacks.

Well The problem is, there is no way anybody could have gotten in. not by uh the door, because there's only one door. They certainly could not have gotten in to the vents which are welded shut and only have little holes for air to go through. The one light bulb. And this is all that there is, and he's absolutely bewildered.

So what's the logical conclusion? The logical conclusion is someone got in there. and rearranged them. Even though it appears to be impossible, that's what's logically necessary. The reason it's logically necessary is that it's impossible for the coins to have arranged themselves.

It's not logically possible, since you have only two possibilities. The coins arranged themselves or the coins did not arrange themselves. If you say that the coins arrange themselves, then you have an impossibility. Because they can't do that. Even in that situation, it's impossible for the coins to arrange themselves.

So Logic says it is not the case that the coins arranged themselves, took themselves out of the bag and placed themselves in a sequence of prime number stacks. It's impossible.

So it has to be that someone got in there. or cause something to happen. to arrange them got in there. That's the logical necessity, no matter what the counter evidence would appear to be. in that no one could get through The door.

And there's no evidence that the The door was opened physically. except that there has to be a way they got in. This is just simple logic. This is an illustration. It's a little bit long, so I don't use it that often, because it's a little bit long.

but it explains logical necessity. Yeah. Okay, so if you have two possibilities and one is necessarily excluded. then the other of those only two possibilities has to be true. by logical necessity.

This is critical thinking, and this is what needs to be taught to people. Let's get back to Oscar. Did you? I lost you. Oscar, you're still there.

Yeah, sorry I've been phoned a cuddle. It's okay. Mm-hmm.

So, um So it's either the case that they live forever Or it's not the case to live forever. If annihilation is true, they don't live forever, then that would mean that God's punishment upon them is nothingness. But is nothingness punishment? No, it's not. Because it's nothing.

Therefore, that position cannot work. Therefore, the other position must be necessarily true.

Okay. Oh, okay. Because I noticed in the book of the Old Testament, it speaks about the wages of sin is death, death, death. It's only in the book of Revelation. Yeah, it's only in the book of Revelation I notice eternal torment, but the Old Testament I don't notice they don't have that.

He says death, the images of sin is death.

Well, maybe my understanding of deaf is different.

Okay then. Um Well, when it says death, you have to understand what God means by it, not what we think it. We have to go back what God's definition is. Not our own.

So God said to Adam on Genesis 2:17, the day you eat it, you will die. he died the day he ate it. Physical death came later. Physical death came hundreds of years later, but God says, you're going to die the day you eat it. And he did die that day.

What we do, and too many people do, is say, well, that means physical death. That's what death means. Not necessarily, since the first mention of it is by God, and he says that you would die that day. And he did by his separation from God. That's what death is.

Oh, okay, it makes sense to me now.

So a person who is not saved is spiritually dead then. Any sense? He's alive while being spiritually dead. That's correct. Oh, okay, okay.

Okay, it makes sense to me now. Yeah. And by the way, Sheol is mentioned in the Old Testament as the abode of the dead. And it talks about, yeah, and it's Genesis thirty-seven, Psalm sixteen. It talks about this stuff.

And in Isaiah 33:14, who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continuing burning? And it's so Yeah, it it's it is taught in the Old Testament, okay? Yeah. All right.

No, I can't.

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, thank you. All right, now let's get to Luke from Washington. Luke, welcome. You're on the air. Hey Matt, how are you?

Doing okay, hanging in there. Hanging in there, man. Haven't talked to you in a while. What's up? Have we heard about Jesus ministries by an Indian guy, Sadhu Selvaraj?

No.

Jesus ministry Jesus Ministries. Jesus Ministries. ministries by a guy from India. Right? Yeah, he is.

He rings a bell. Yeah, his name is Sal. He looks like a. Prophets, he acts like a prophet. He dresses like a prophet, dress, he has a long hair.

Long beard and the Here's a rob Give me one how do you spell one of his names as one of them.

Okay. Uh I'll spell it S for Sam, A for Apple, D for Uh David, H for Harry, U for University, Sazoo.

Okay, let's try that. Sadhu, no, no, that is that's not the name. That is not a paper, but Sadu means uh uh A monk in Indian language. Sundar Sass in Sam. You as in umbrella, N as in Nancy, D as in David, A as an apple, R and hold on, hold on.

Okay, so I'm just trying to find it.

So, Saundu Sunda Salvadoraj, founder of Jesus Ministries.

Okay. Yeah. Did you see this picture? Uh So he has some failed prophecies apparently. And uh He says to have he claims personal visitations from Jesus.

Dead saints visiting the earth. And uh Yeah, so you gotta be careful of this guy, okay? Yes, he claims of visions, dreams and supernatural encounters, teaching about angels, heaven and end times. Right. You know, if I had staff, we'd have some of the writers work on this.

But I don't have any.

So I can't do it right now. But you gotta stay away from them.

Okay? And there's money lots of money from America. Lots of money. Yeah, I know. I'm sure.

Okay, buddy. Hey, sorry, we gotta go. There's a break. Oh, there's the end of the show. Folks, may the Lord bless you by His grace.

We're back on your. And Lord William, we'll talk to you tomorrow. God bless. Another program powered by the Truth Network.