Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Mac is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carn.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls, and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live if. You want to give me a call this lovely Monday, March 2nd? 2026. If you want to give me a call, it's easy.

Just dial 87-720722. seven six and um we'll get to you So, we got nobody waiting right now. You can also email me at info at carm.org. Info at carm.org. But a subject line, radio comment or radio question.

That reminds me.

So, where is it? For my window. I got all these windows open, you know. Like, where'd it go? There we go.

And uh I have uh let's see I have one two three four five six Seven Yeah. At least eight email addresses, right? for varying reasons and uh to run the ministry and solidify things and stuff like that. And I went through today. and cleaned out about four thousand emails.

And just One account. One account. 4,000 emails. And uh that's just one of them. And I've got another one with 676.

And another one with 3,524. Yeah.

So anyway. If you email me. Yeah.

You can see why we, you know, we um We get overwhelmed by emails a lot, and we had a problem. I want to let people know about this. We had a problem with the info at Carm.org email. And we didn't know we had a problem for a while because email just says email. You get an email in your inbox and you go, you look at it.

And people would email us and say, hey, how come you're not answering my email? And we wouldn't even get that email. And so We found out. uh that uh somebody was One of our guys was drilling down in some folders, and our emails are going into these weird folders. And like what are they doing over there?

And It didn't make any sense and this is a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago I um I went in and did some computer tech stuff and got rid of all kinds of filters, all kinds of forwards, all kinds of everything. And it was still happening. But not as much. And I went in.

I mean, I did one of those tech things where you just go in and you know. They just do everything you can and make it work. And then over the weekend I uh went in and I deleted All information in the info at curm.org by well, actually, I didn't delete it, I copied it over to another account altogether. There's a way to do that inside of my uh I have a system I can do that.

So nothing's lost. And then the info at carm.org now is just bare bones. We don't have any folders except for what's generic automatic folders. We have a Gmail thing, it's a Inclusive Gmail. And uh so if you are emailing us And In fact, if you want to do this right now, you could do this.

You could just say, just email us, info at carm.org. And you could type something in there like uh just email test test. Because you put the word radio in there, and then I'll know it. I will tell the guy. I just asked them all over the air to do this to make sure it's going in because we can easily look at any other places it might be now.

We want to make sure that everything's working, so if you want to email us at info at carm.org. just uh you know put in radio test, uh radio email test, whatever you want, in the subject line. I'm telling you this because I know that people who are listening have ca have emailed us and we've we didn't know there were problems. And so now we do. And we've been working on it to fix it.

And so, one of the things that I'm going to direct everybody to is we want to raise the customer experience to an excellent. Um level. We also are going into our phone system. We put a new phone number up on the website.

Now, when we move from one website to the other website style, anyway. Things got ported over, and we discovered that some of the stuff we ported over wasn't exactly ported over correctly. It's not anybody's fault, it's just the tech. And so The email, I don't know. I tried to track it when it was there.

Like, why is that here? Anyway, I got a whole brand new, whatever it is, and got it all. There we go, Laura. This sent an email test. Thank you.

Very nice. And um And so What was I saying now? I just got just lost my I just lost my train of thought. Guess what happens when you get close to seventy? You know, you're talking to yourself, and then somebody, what were they talking about?

And I can't remember.

So uh let's get back on to oh, I can't remember. It doesn't matter. And so um I'll come back to it.

So also We've fixed the. Oh, I remember now. It's the phone number at the bottom of the website. If you go to About is at the bottom, you can contact, and it's there, and it works. And now we've got it set up so that you can leave a message, and we're going to be going in two or three times a day, checking everything.

And we're going to probably get a notification. to a setup Someone's phone so that we can make sure we have this. We don't have a staff, full-time staff. Otherwise, we'd have a full-time staff person taking care of it all the time. We just don't.

We're not a big ministry, and we are trying to do what we can. And Stacey Turner says email test there. Thank you. Hey, that's right.

So I Do the email test. We're testing it out right now. And so if you want to send an email to info at carm.org, info at C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, put in a subject line. We have something like. you know, test whatever it is, what you put in there.

Yeah, search organizer. Yeah, sorry, organized. Yeah, test email, that's what it was.

So you can do that. Yeah, we'd be appreciative. And also, the email thing is now sorted out, I mean, the voicemail thing is now sorted out. But you can leave voicemails.

Now and we've also got it the schools are now working properly. We've got that reset everything button that you get your emails done. That's all taken care of. And the last Issue that we're going to be working on, or I'm going to be working on, is the donation thing. We have a whole new system.

And we found out recently that people outside the country can't donate. And they want to donate, and they're helping us out. And there's some people I have to call back here inside the States and work with them because they want to call, want me to call them, and that's fine, great, and do some donations. But I got to get my head around it first, so I'm going to call them tomorrow. And I have to do research today and tomorrow morning to figure out what the issues are so I can, when they tell me, I can go in and.

and see if they can figure it out. And then we have a new guy who's helping us out. And he's a tech dude. And uh he likes stuff like that.

So uh when we get it Get the issues nailed, we're going to give it to him, and then there you go. And we're going to, I think that'll be everything. And we're trying to set it up so that everything will work fine. One last thing, one last thing. That and At the end of the year, it was a set, or the first by b basically by March-ish.

You're supposed to have Forms sent out to donors, how much they've donated over a certain amount. Otherwise, you don't need to donate. I mean, you don't need a receipt. Like it's like $250. You don't need a receipt.

You can just donate. Yeah.

And um we've got people who have made some donations larger than that. And How do I describe this? The old system, and we're still working through getting a new one, the old system. is the most laborious, difficult, Purgatorial kind of procedure we've had to go through over the years as things have been modified in order to get things done. My wife was the one who learned the system as things went on.

And she passed away in November.

So there was just let's just say A lot of things in the air. And that's one of them. And so here's the thing. If you are out there. And You haven't received your uh your end of year tax receipt from CARM.

Just email us at info at carm.org. Put your name. And uh You haven't received your amount. And what we'll do, it's another project at the Go in: is go in and find the amount in a certain system place and then see if I can get the information. And I'll put out a form and email it back to you, email the receipt.

So we had to do it this way right now because it is so difficult to work with this old system. One of the new projects we've got is finding a replacement system that is turnkey. And we have to integrate that with the new shop system. This is something I have to teach myself how to do. Not to mention do radio, not to mention write articles, not to mention set up debates.

Not to mention, do the financials on an Excel spreadsheet that I developed. I should teach Excel, so that makes it easy. Or, I should say easier, and do all of that stuff and um. And then, and then get this. And so I'm just winding, kind of like an open statement here.

And so uh We had an issue. I had to cancel a card. And I canceled this one card for the Carm account because my wife had access to that. She's gone, so I had to cancel that, and it canceled everything. The system went in, and now I have to go in.

After I get a new replacement card coming in in a day or two, or three or four, I have to go into 32 different places online and get things fixed.

So, you know, put in the new information. 32, I got a list.

So to all run the ministry. How about that?

So there you go. That's been busy.

So if you email us and stuff, it doesn't come back right away, that's why. There's just a lot going on.

So I'm just giving you a heads up, all right?

Okay. Thanks for being patient with me. Let's get to Elijah from Pennsylvania. Elijah, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, um Uh I don't know if I heard you correctly, but did you say that your that your wife passed in November? Yeah, November twenty fifth she uh she passed away, yes. Oh man, I'm so so sorry to hear that. Yeah, it w it she uh it was the end of a long uh suffering. Uh she had a very rare connective tissue disorder called Louise Dietz.

And um if anybody knows what Marfans is, it's like it's like Marfans, except Mean. Meaner. And um So she had 25 surgeries. And open-heart surgeries, pacemaker, feet, hands-back surgeries, and it finally, our body just couldn't take it anymore. Yeah.

It gave out in November.

So that's what happened.

Okay, so. Yeah.

I mean, I'll definitely keep you in my prayers, though. Thanks, man. Yeah, I'm able to do fine as long as I don't talk about it too long. After about three minutes, I started to go, okay, we're done. And we're But yeah, I can talk about it now.

I people I just told uh somebody else today who didn't know. And uh, you know. That's what happens. That's that's life, but she's with the Lord, and I have threatened Uh to go to heaven. And meet her again.

And so I have to give her a warning ahead of time, I might go back up to heaven, you know, when I go when I go to heaven. Commuter against you, you know. It's like a warning, you know, just warning you, I'm coming.

So we'll see what happens. Yeah, yeah. No, no. All right. Let's see.

Yeah, so I had sent you an email earlier today. I don't know if you've got it or not. Where'd you send it to? Info at Carm.org? Yeah, I had got said to you that I was going to send you a video about a discussion between Sean Griffin and this once saved, always saved host and that I would be calling you today to talk to you about it.

But it's okay. I have written down different Different things throughout the video that was said, so I could remember, you know, just in case you didn't get to watch it in time. Oh, I won't watch it because I just have too much to do. And I often am doing literally two things at once.

So I'll be. I'll be talking to you maybe and typing uh uh an answer to to it to something else. I I do that a lot. That that's how much I have to work.

Okay, so what do you got man?

Well, let's go over it. Oh, there's a music break. Hold on, okay. We'll be right back.

Alright, ready after the break.

Alright. Hey folks, if you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 87-720-722-76. We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. We've got some people responding to the email test request, and that's Laura, we've got. Anthony And from Virginia, awesome. Stacy Simon from Norway and Charlie.

Hey, thanks a lot. Really appreciate it. All right, let's get back on with Elijah. From Pennsylvania, Elijah, welcome. You're on the air.

Yeah, I had questions about Sean Griffin's discussion with the host that he talked to. He had uploaded it to his channel the other day and Okay, so The first thing I wrote down was that Sean Griffin says that Divine rest isn't death on a cross for all people who have sinned. It's the lake of fire. Then the host goes on to act, Sean, did Jesus get the wrath of God for your sins, Sean, on the cross. Sean says Christ did not go to the lake of fire.

And I'm going to stop right there, and I'll let you handle that.

Well, I'm not sure what the question is yet. But sometimes, in the related to that kind of an issue, people will say, well, if Jesus died on the cross and suffered the wrath, then you shouldn't have any sickness, you shouldn't have any physical death. I don't know if that what he's getting at. No, no, he's getting at uh Se Sean Sean is basically saying he doesn't believe in, what is it called? He doesn't believe in penal substitutionary atonement.

He said that he believes that doctrine was invented in the 16th century by John Calvin and Martin Luther. And he doesn't believe that. That's ridiculous to say that. The penal substitutionary atonement, PSA is what it's known for, is the idea that Jesus bore our sin and his body on the cross, the legal aspect, legally went to the cross, legally suffered, and paid a legal debt. And all of that, I can quote you scriptures that say those things.

So it's right there. I mean, I I can, I can teach on it. And I do it all the time.

So he's wrong there.

Okay. Yeah, so and so, um you know, you know, we as Christians, we believe that Jesus uh bo uh you know you know uh he he uh Received the wrath of God when he was on the cross, but Sean doesn't believe that. Sean believes that the wrath of God would have been Jesus, you know, getting thrown into the lake of fire. He he believes that would have been the wrath of God.

Well, if that's the case, he's failing to understand that Jesus is God in flesh, and his sacrifice and death on the cross is of infinite value. Therefore, being thrown into the lake of fire. is not needed because the sacrifice of Christ being infinite in its value, since he is God in flesh, does not necessitate him having to be cast into hell.

So he he doesn't understand what he's doing. Very very simply.

Okay. Uh let's see, what's his next point? Uh Yeah, so so also going back to the penal substitutionary, I wrote that Sean said that penal substitutionary atonement. is not an official doctrine by any church, but only a theory and it's not salvific. Yeah.

I don't know if PSA is official doctrine of a lot of churches. I would bet that they are, that there are. And it's not an essential doctrine in the sense that you have to believe it in order to be saved. Denying it doesn't mean you're not a Christian because you can deny it inner ignorance. But I talked to Eastern Orthodox Roman Catholics, and they denied PSA, so do Mormons and others.

And I just show them the scriptures. And you know, sin is breaking the law of God, 1 John 3:4. And Jesus bore our sin and his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2.24.

Well, sin's a legal debt because we know from Luke Al uh Yeah. Matthew 6:12, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Matthew 6:12, Jesus says, Forgive us our debts. That's the Greek word, ophilema. And then in Luke 11:4, the parallel is: forgive us our sins as we forgive those who are indebted to us.

So Jesus equates sin with legal debt. He does. And that proof is right there in Matthew 6:12 and Luke 11:4. And then Jesus said on the cross in John 19:30, he says, it is finished, which is a Which is the Greek word tetelistae, which has been found on the bottom of ancient tax receipts, signifying a legal debt paid in full. And then there's Colossians 2:14, which says that he canceled out the certificate of debt.

consisting of decrees, which was hostile to us. You took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. The Greek word, single Greek word for the for the English certificate of debt, the Greek word is cherographon, and it occurs only once in the Bible right there. and it means a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness. That's what it means.

And he canceled it at the cross.

So when people say PSA is not true, I usually tell them, or I often sometimes will say, I'll tell you what, afterwards, why don't we just, I'll tell you what verses to go in the Bible to cross out? You can cross them out so that PSA no longer appears in the scriptures. If you want, I'll help you out. These are the verses. I've got a few more we can go into.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

So Yeah, they don't know what they're doing, and to say that it is only arrived at in the 1500s with the Reformation is simply not true. I have so many people tell me stuff: your church is only 500 years old. I say, no, it goes back to the apostles. No, it doesn't. I say, yes, it does.

And I show them stuff. I go, this is what the apostles taught. This is what this is. And sometimes I'll trick them. They all say, Well, I believe God makes everything, even the wicked, for the day of evil.

And we would never do that. I just go to Proverbs 16, 4. Or I'll say, I believe God chooses us for salvation. He would never do that. I just quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I do this all 213. I just do this to them all the time. and they don't like talking to me, and they call me names.

So Yeah. Of Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't I don't know how some people get triggered when you sho sh show them that uh what you believe is you know in the scriptures. I I I don't know. But um I wasn't going to say. Oh, yeah.

So I I I have one last question. Sean Sean kept asking the host and Sean in his editing editing of the video, he put at the bottom of the screen that the host kept dodging his question about Christ priesthood.

So Sean was trying to ask the host about Christ's priesthood and Sean, him believing that Jesus is up there in heaven right now. slaughtering animals, shedding animal blood every time we ask God for forgiveness. And he quotes first John, I think it's one nine or three point nine, if I remember correctly, that God I mean, Jesus cleanses us of unrighteousness. Sean thinks that he's shedding animal blood every time we ex ask God for forgiveness.

So he thinks that Jesus' current priestly duties in heaven is doing just that, doing the old covenant sacrificial thing.

So, my question to you is: How would you respond to Sean if he asked you what is Jesus's current? Increasingly, jobs in heaven if it's not doing the animal sacrifice. I'd say Sean, Sean, Sean, when you're in a debate. you need to use both frontal lobes. And if you don't use both frontal lobes, you'll end up saying things like you're saying right now.

You gotta stop that. See, I've actually debated the guy, okay, in June of 23. I debated him on the Trinity. And he uh Mm-hmm. He committed logical fallacies, guilt by association, genetic fallacy.

He said the Holy Spirit was not a person. This guy's a cultist. He does not know what the truth is. He does not understand anything like that. But at any rate.

So Hebrews 9, 11 through oh, okay, we're gonna break, hold on, and I'll give you a better response after the break, okay?

So hold on, buddy. Folks, we'll right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned, you're at that. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, and welcome back to the show. If you want, you can give me a call. All you got to do is dial 8772072276. Let's get back to Elijah from Pennsylvania. You still there?

Yep, I'm still here. All right, so uh to refute this guy's uh false teaching That Jesus is offering animal sacrifices in heaven, which is blasphemous. It's blasphemy. Incidentally, I forgot to say that. And I'll show you why.

This I'm going to read you some verses, okay? We'll go to them a little bit.

So in Hebrews 7, 25, for example, therefore he, that's Jesus, is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, since he always lived to make intercession for them. But Jesus is making intercession. Two verses later in Hebrews 7:27, he does not need daily like those high priests to offer up sacrifices because he did this once for all. He doesn't need daily to offer up, like those sacrifices. Does not need to.

That's Hebrews 7:27. No need.

So that right there should refute it. Hebrews 9, 11 and 12. But when Christ appeared as a high priest, for of the good things to come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands. That is to say, not of this creation and not of the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood he entered the holy place once for all. Having obtained eternal redemption.

So he entered the holy place once. He's already obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 10, 11 and 12. Every high priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices. which can never take away sins.

But he, having offered one sacrifice for sin for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

So 727, and he was 1012. should go together. And then Hebrews 10:18, now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

So this is refuted. Uh Sean Griffin. he might have had dealings with. could not think his way out of a very damp wet paper bag. with a chain around him.

If it's on a NASA central fuse going outward at a very high velocity, within the bag was greased and And there was a neon sign saying go this way.

Okay. Yeah um We used to like It's um as far as I know, there's There's only one verse I think in the entire Bible that he uses to justify that stance. I believe. It's Hebrews 2, 17. I'm trying to go there now.

Yeah, it becomes like all things. Uh-huh. Yep, God had become like us, yeah. Yeah, that's not a good verse to go to. All right.

So it says, Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, so that he might become a merciful and high priest in pertaining things to God to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Yeah.

Yeah.

So uh We could ask questions of Sean. We could say, like all things, does that mean he was a sinner? If he says yes, well, he violates 1 Timothy 2:22. Yeah.

And uh 1 Peter 2.22 actually.

Sorry. And so we could ask him that, and then say, what's propitiation? There's so many ways to defeat this this this bad theology that he has. Seriously, he does not know how to argue very well.

Sorry, but that's the case. I'm not trying to be mean. People thinking, you're mean.

Well it should uh yeah, mm-hmm.

Okay. Do we have time for more questions, or do you have a caller waiting? On Michaka. We had somebody once coming in.

So go ahead. What do you got? Ask another question.

So yeah, he he also likes to say that the law of Moses is eternal and that we should still keep the law of Moses today. One of the one of his Uh The vert things he likes to say that he thinks is a slam dunk is when he says. Abraham kept the law of God, and also Cain and Abel. because they did um what was it, like a sacrifice or something he said that's in the Mosaic law and also I think you said Noah kept the law of God because all these different people were priests. long before uh Moses was even born.

So it's like uh how would you uh respond to that? I'd say Shun, shun, shun, shun. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Okay, so go to Hebrews 8:13. When he said a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete, but whoever is coming or becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. The Old Covenant. It's it's obsolete.

Now, when you go to Hebrews 9:15 through 16, for this reason, Jesus is a mediator. Or is the meteor of a new covenant?

So that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions which were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance. that the new covenant is instituted with the death of Christ. and the old covenant is made obsolete. Hebrews eight thirteen.

So, therefore. We don't have to keep the law. In order to be saved, the priestly law or anything like that. And just to throw this out. You can go to, and I'll just read it.

Romans, well, do it this way. Look this way. Romans 6.6. knowing that our old self was crucified with him.

Well, I ask people when was our old self crucified with Jesus? I think when you get baptized. No, crucified with him. crucified. Crucified, not baptized, crucified.

Uh And it says in verse 8, Romans 6:8, if we have died with Christ, when did Christ die? 2,000 years ago. When was he crucified 2,000 years ago? then that's when we died with him. That's when we're crucified with him.

People go, whoa. And I show him this, Collagens 3. And I say, it says in verse 3, Colossians 3:3, For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. People like to say, You died with baptism. No, it's not what it is.

We are buried with him in baptism, but we died before then. In the fact that Christ, our representative on the cross, Represented us, Hebrews. I mean, it could be Romans 6:6, Romans 6:8, Colossians 3:3. And I'm going to utter verses. Why is that important?

Because of this, When you go to Romans seven four, Says Therefore, my brethren, you are also made to die to the law, through the body of Christ.

So that you might be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that you might bear fruit.

So Believe it or not, in Christ, we've died to the law. We're not obligated to keep the law. And then, if you want to really make it fun, you can go to Galatians 3:10. For as many as are the works of the law, Are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.

And that's a quote from Deuteronomy twenty-seven, twenty-six. Yeah.

But wait, there's more.

Okay, let me get to this.

Now we go to James 2:10, right? For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point becomes guilty of all.

So And in fact, I'm going to throw this in too, because I know you're. Probably maybe taking notes. I don't know. We'll see what anybody else is. But now we'll go to Galatians 5.

Okay. Well let's go to Galatians 3 first, because it's fun to read Galatians 3.

Well, starting at verse 1, you foolish Galatians, you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or By hearing with faith, are you so foolish, having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? That means the law.

Now When you go to Galatians 5, starting at verse 2, behold, I, Paul, say that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Now, circumcision was just a representation of the law. One thing a lot, just one little thing. One little thing, circumcision. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law. You've been severed.

Notice the pun. Severed. Circumcision from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law, you fall from grace.

So these are all kind of verses to show that He does not understand biblical theology. He does not know what he is doing. He is a dangerous false teacher. and he needs to be put in his place as a false teacher.

Okay. Yeah, and one last thing before I go. I don't know if you noticed about Sean yet or not. But he does not believe that the new covenant is active right now. He believes that the new covenant won't become active until.

until the second coming of Christ and his establishment of his kingdom on earth. Yeah, that's found in the book called Second Hysterectomy. That's where that's found. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And next to uh uh third colonoscopy.

So, there are several books that are like that, that have those kind of teachings in there, and you can check that out. But no, I just read the verses where it says the new covenant is instituted with the death of Christ.

So, no, Sean Griffin is a false teacher, a dangerous teacher. He's a worker in line with the Antichrist or the Spirit of Antichrist. As he denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ, salvation by grace, he's a complete false teacher. He needs to be called out as such.

Okay? Yeah.

All right. Thank you for answering my questions. I might call back tomorrow. Might?

Alright, I guess that that's good enough, I guess. All right, buddy.

Okay, we'll talk. All right, have a good list. You too, God bless. All right. All right, hey, that was good timing.

And we'll get right back after the break. We'll talk to Jessica from North Carolina. And if you want to call me, the number is 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy: 877-20722. 7-6.

Sorry, Jessica from North Carolina. Are you there? Yes, hello? Hi. You're on the air.

Yeah.

Hi, um, I just had a question. Um From your understanding, um in your study, who are the twenty four elders and that are in heaven when John has the vision or experience in the book of Revelation.

Well, it's a good question, and I don't have a solid answer to you for you, okay? Because it's a very simple-oriented book, Revelation, and there are some possibilities here. It could be the result of the 12 tribes of Israel representing the Old Testament, in addition to the 12 apostles of the New Testament, hence. That's what I thought.

Okay, okay. It could be.

Okay, so it could be. And then there's another thing in 1 Chronicles 24, David organized Levitical priesthood into 24 divisions.

So We could look, you know, look into that because the issue here is. Is that the term 24 elders only occurs in Revelation? And I think it occurs, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight times, something like that. And so in. And I'll do this this way, twenty four.

Like that. And if I were to go and do research on it in the Old Testament, we find it's used there. And the idea is that we want to. have the New Testament in Revelation. Find its marks from the Old Testament, generally speaking.

And so it could be what I said to begin with: 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles. It could be a reference of the priesthood kind of a work. But I think what it probably refers to, at the very least, is just the believers, which I think could be represented by 12 tribes plus 12 apostles, representing the Old and New Testament, the believers as a whole. And I suspect that's what it is.

Okay, okay. Yeah, I heard that too. Um So And I guess this is um you from your understanding, you prescribe to a free Tribulation map there. Post. I'm post-trib.

You prescribe to a post-tribulation radio. Yeah, we're going through it. It's going to be bad.

Okay, okay. And so, what justifications do you give on that? That there's, I think, quite a bit actually, there's no pre-trib rapture verse in the Bible. There's nothing in there that says pre-church rapture, for one thing, or shows that it is. That's one thing.

And also, if you go to Matthew 24, for example, okay. There are different ways to show this, easy stuff. But uh go on my game my computer I have to do get rid of that and then go into here for here. Come on, why are you doing that? Anyway, when you go to Matthew 24, What's interesting is they ask Jesus When he says these the stones are going to be thrown down and things like this, he says They said, What will be the sign of these things when will these things happen?

What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? They asked Jesus in Matthew twenty three three, they asked three things. And he says Well, here's the answer. Don't be misled. Many are going to come and say, I am the Christ.

There'll be wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes. I'm just scanning through my highlighted area of Matthew 24. They'll deliver you to tribulation. They'll kill you. You'll be hated by all nations.

Many will fall away, false prophets will arise, mislead many, Lawlessness will increase, love will grow cold, he who endures to the end will be saved, the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached. When you see the abomination of desolation which is spoken of, when you see this. Is the Antichrist arrival?

Okay, most people believe and I agree. Unless those days be cut short, no one would be left. Verse 24 of Matthew 24: False Christ, false prophets will arise, deceive many, and then so will the coming of the Son of Man be. And then he goes on and he says. In uh Where'd it go?

Oh where it goes. And immediately in verse 29, immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Now, what Jesus is saying is, after the tribulation, after all of this. It says, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky. The powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign. of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.

Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with great power and glory, and he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather together his elect. from the four winds. Jesus says this gathering is after the tribulation. He says it clearly.

So, you don't believe that this gathering are the. Believers who came out of the tribulation. Do you believe that this gathering is. All of the elect. Yep, because the Bible says there's only one return of Christ.

There's only one. This is critical. In fact, bear with me a little bit and I'll show you something, okay? And I got some stuff to show you in addition. If you go to Acts 1:9, okay.

Acts 1.9. Oh, come on, why is it doing that? I gotta get rid of something and it won't let me Stop. I gotta stop that. And here we go, Acts 1.9.

And it says as Jesus was lifted up. He went into the sky, and the clouds were there. And they pro the angels came and prophesied and said, He will return the same way that you see him go into heaven. And there's only one return of Christ. It's with the clouds.

In the clouds, he's going to come. In 1st Thessalonians, I'm going to show you some other stuff here. This is really interesting. In verse that, chapter 4, verse 16. For the Lord Himself will then descend from heaven with a shout.

There's one return of Christ. Not to, before the tribulation and after. Nothing in Scripture says he's coming halfway to kind of get some people. It's just not there. And I'm going to show you something else here that's really interesting.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the family. Preacher people, yeah. Preacher, to my understanding, preacher folk don't. Don't think that the rapture is the coming of Christ. They they believe that a Gonna go.

Rapture, and then Coming of Christ.

So it was still one. Right, except there's a problem, and I'll show you what it is.

Okay, I'll show you this. Watch this.

So the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive that remain will be caught up together in the clouds and meet him. You have no one to warn you about this, for the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. That's the rapture. The day of the Lord come like a thief in the night, It's the return of Christ.

That's the rapture that they of the Lord come like a thief in the night. When you go to 2 Peter, 310. But the day of the Lord had come like a thief. He's talking about the same thing. in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat.

The new heavens and new earth are made. At the day of the Lord come like a thief. which is the same day as the rapture. That destroys The Millennium. the literal 1,000 years.

And I'll show you two more things that are interesting. In Matthew 13, Jesus says in the parable of the wheat and the tares And he said, Should we tear up the tares? And he says, No, verse 30 of Matthew 13. Allow both to go together until the harvest. There's one harvest.

Not two. Because they're one to say there's a harvest but before the tribulation and another one after. It never says there's two harvests. Only one at the and I'll show you what he says. In the time of the harvest I'll say to the reapers, first gather up the tares.

and bind them in bundles to burn them up. gather the wheat into my barn.

So the first one's gathered. or the w wicked. At Matthew 13, thirty And then they asked Jesus to explain the parable. He says in verse 37: the one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world. The tares are the sons of the evil one.

The enemy who sowed them is the devil. In verse 40, just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they'll gather out of his kingdom. all stumbling blocks. The wicked are taken out of the kingdom of God.

But the rapture occurs which day of the Lord comes like a thief. which is also the same day as the new heavens and new earth. That kingdom can't be the literal one thousand years. It has to be something else. And one last thing to throw out.

I know a lot of people might be interested in this. in Matthew twenty four and Luke seventeen. It says, Two men are in the field, one is taken, one is left. That is taught so frequently that it's the rapture. It has nothing to do with the rapture.

It has nothing to do with it. The rapture occurs But it's spok spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4. But this is not about the rapture. I'll quote it to you. And what I'm sorry, which what was that verse again?

Matthew 24 and Luke 17. 20. Twenty-four thirty Yeah, Matthew 24, for example. And uh verse thirty six And Uh Luke 17, uh twenty-seven, I believe it is. And it's it's a parallel.

Their words are almost identical in both. But there's a slight change. He says, The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah, for in those days before the flood, they.

Now, who's the they? This is the question who is the they? They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, till the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand. till the flood came and took them all away.

Now in the parallel of Luke 11, they did not understand till a flood came and destroyed them all. The ones who were taken are the wicked It's clear. It's right there. And I show this to people. Two men in a field, one is taken, one is left.

The context is the wicked who are taken. And they asked Jesus, In Luke 17, they actually ask him Well, where are they taken? And he answers the question. And he gives the answer. He tells you.

He says, where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered. Pre-tribulation rapture, in my opinion, I hope it's true. is built upon inference, and wishful thinking. and I think it's not good for the Christian Church to adopt it. The reason is because The unfortunate idea that we're going to escape problems.

Don't worry about our kingdom. Don't worry about the kingdom of Christ right now. Don't worry about everything we'll escape. If you're going to go through the tribulation. If this is going to be the reality of what's going to happen, Then you better prep now.

You better get ready now. and you better start preaching and teaching and getting the kingdom of God expanded as much as possible. and then he'll he's going to come and take out of his kingdom the wicked. Because we're in the kingdom of Christ now. Because Jesus says, in order for the strong man to be bound, In order to cast out demons, the strongman, Satan, has to be bound, and he was doing that.

in Matthew twelve, so Jesus is saying Satan was bound. in Matthew twelve. There's so much the preacher relation rapture review, in my opinion. Is the doctrine of following the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus, who's dressed in a woman's nightgown? who's asking permission for you to let him in your heart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I could do a conference on the table.

Okay, okay. Thank you so much. You're welcome so much. I know I gave you a lot to think. I had to hurry because we're out of time.

All right. Well, God bless Jessica. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye.

Goodbye. Yeah, I know when I teach this, people don't like it. Their eyebrows raise, one eye goes up, they look at me kind of, you know, side-eyed. But that's not what I've been taught. But what does Jesus say?

Anyway, folks, there you go. Hope that was a good challenge. If you want, you can wait and call me tomorrow.

Well, you have to wait or call me tomorrow if you want. We can talk about this and give you some challenges and let's talk about it. Which is the right view? What should you be believing? Yeah.

Anyway, right back to Moby Ark tomorrow. We'll talk to you later. Have a con good evening, or God bless. Another program powered by the Truth Network.