Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live. If. You want, you can give me a call. The number is 877-207-2276.

You can also watch the show. That's really, oh, it's exciting. Trust me, it's so exciting. Just go to rumble.com forward slash Mattslick Live or Facebook MatSlick Live or YouTube Mattslick Live. X Match Look Live Anyway, it's how it works, all one word.

You should be able to find it. And it's so rivetingly exciting watching me sit here talking to a microphone.

Now, you can. If you do the rumble thing, though, people go in and we talk or they chat. And people have made friends in it because it's pretty cool. All right, so there's that. Also, if you are interested, you can send me an email.

That's easy to do. Just put an email in. To info at carm.org, info at carm.org. Put in the subject line: radio comment or radio question. And Yeah.

And we'll get on. All right, we've got nobody waiting right now. And so last night, something kind of interesting has been happening a little bit. Nothing momentous, just interesting stuff as I look at things.

So, uh I went into Discord, and Discord is a chat place, and you can go in and have all kinds of discussions, and there's all kinds of paganism going on, all kinds of stuff. And I was invited into a room. I was actually asked, Matt, they want you to come into this room and answer questions. I said, okay, fine.

So I did that, and I had this interesting conversation with a Mormon guy. who is pretty smart. And he knows Greek a lot better than I do. And uh but he's a Mormon. And so we got talking and we had an interesting conversation, but something else I talked about in regard to that was to me interesting and has happened numerous times.

So I'll be in a room. And then what happens is people will come in who disagree with me on basically everything.

Okay. And if I make a really solid point. They ignore it. If He makes a point, then that gets run up on the flagpole, and then they say that I've been defeated, etc. And then I answer it.

And then nothing. And then they only see what they want to see and they only approve of what they want to approve of if it's in favor of their their guy, who's a Mormon? But these are Eastern Orthodox people. who are supporting him, along with the Roman Catholic people. Which I think is just incredibly interesting.

So I someone was saying how I get defeated all the time. They always say that. And I go, Yeah, that's good. Thank you very much. And I wrote in a text, I wrote in one of the chat rooms.

I said, When a light comes out, the bugs the bug's attracted to it. And uh they get zapped. I said, that's what you guys are. You guys are like bugs. You're just annoying because you don't know your theology.

You don't know logic. You don't understand what it means to make a case.

something. And uh So we we had this conversation and the Yeah. And I would chuckle like I am now. And he would say, See, I can tell you're getting upset. And I'm cracking up, going, What?

Does it sound like I'm upset? And so, you know, he says, You're projecting, man. Like, dude. Dude, calm down, man. And it was like, I'm just cracking up because it was so ridiculous.

And so I'm enjoying the conversations, right? I like this stuff. I like having these interactions on the web. And within, and I just like it. I don't know.

I just wait and put it together.

So, for me, it's not that big a deal.

So, we had these conversations, and we're talking about justification.

Now This is a critical issue. And I was saying to this Mormon guy who. This cracks me up, is loved by the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

Now, Mormonism teaches God came from their planet.

Okay, there's a goddess wife, okay? And EO and RC, you know, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, both teach, you know, synergism, soteriological synergism, which is you have to cooperate with God, endure to the end in order to be saved. And so. Oh man. And so this guy, this Mormon guy, he goes to Mark 13:13, where it says you have to endure to the end to be saved.

I said, well, what's the context? And the context, he says it's about salvation. And I said, How do you know? How do you know that's what it is? It's an eschatological issue here, talking about when the end times come and the tribulation period, you've got to be saved through that.

And you don't how do you know it doesn't mean physical deliverance through the persecution that's coming? And he goes, That's not what it means.

Well, how do you know? And so he would start talking to me in a condescending tone while he's trying to be calm.

Well, Matt, you see, I'm the one who's calm, and I know that. And I'm laughing. He goes, Oh, see, you're laughing because you're nervous. And to me, to me, this is entertainment.

Okay. I don't know. I got issues, but I get a kick out of it because it's so stupid. All right. Ugh.

So Well it was, I did a new one. Oh, what was it? Oh, there's a I say it I say to people, Yeah, I know where that that is. That's in the book of second hysterectomy. You know, I'll say these things like that.

And I saw someone who said something one of those, and I try to remember it, and I can't remember it. Oh, it was another one I thought was funny, like hysterectomy, second colostomy, you know, and I get a kick out of those. But anyway.

So So I'm talking to these guys. And it the chatter Of course, they're all claiming I'm defeated all the time. They always do that. You know, I'm just defeated. Even when I make a perfectly good point, the guy can't answer it.

Even then I'm defeated because I'm projecting. It's just laughable. I get kicked out of it. I do. I get a kick out of it.

And uh then they say like I said, they say, Oh, you're getting nervous 'cause you're la laughing. I'm gonna dude what is with you guys. And so, uh Well, you went into this issue of justification. And I said, This is how you have to play the game with these guys. I say to this morning guy said, Is does the Bible say in Romans 5:1?

I'm going to quote the verse. Having therefore been justified by faith, is that what it says? Because that's all, you know, you got to get him to say yes. And he goes, yes. And he was actually quiet because I couldn't believe it.

And uh I said, Okay, and justification is a legal declaration of righteousness.

Well, he and I went over this before, weeks before, and so he knows that's what it is because I proved it from Scripture. I proved it from Romans 4, 1 through 4, 5. And so he doesn't argue that one anymore, finally. And then I asked the question: I said.

So, are you justified when you have faith? And he says. And this is typical. Typical of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics. This is a good lesson for you to hear if you're ever talking to somebody.

Well, you see, it's the faith that works. And it works through love. That's what it means. And I said, what does that mean? What does it mean, the faith that works through love?

What is that? Of course, you know, they're just trying to say something in order to say that you had to do works in order with their faith to be saved. And I asked him, I say, look, God grants that we have faith, Philippians 1.29. And that faith is true faith because Jesus says it's the work of God, that you believe in Jesus. That's John 6, 29.

So I say, is the faith that God alone grants to us That's real faith because it's in Jesus. is that faith in and of itself sufficient to justify us? And then they don't want to answer the question. And the reason they don't want to answer the question is because the question is a good question. It's very pointed.

And I ask him, is it? And then sometimes he'll say, yes, but. And they always have to add. This is what the false religions do. They have to add something.

Yes, but you have to show the works. And they always want to have the works.

So, what I'll do sometimes is say, so are you doing those? Because this guy said you have to endure to the end. And I say, well, what does it mean to endure? What does it mean?

So you're saying that salvation occurs to you if you endure your whole life, even though Mark 13:13 is not about that. It's about the tribulation period. But anyway, so what do you have to do? It goes just persevere. I said, Wha wh what does it mean?

I finally got him to say, well, you have to repent of your sins. I said, Repentance is a good thing. He goes, Yes, it is. And is it compliance with what God wants you to do, his law, to love everybody? You know, if you're not doing that, you've got to stop doing bad.

He did want to say yes, because he knows what I'm going to ask him. And are you being. Are you keeping yourself safe by your compliance with the law? Because that's what they're doing. You're keeping yourself right with God.

so that you could end up being saved. By your faithfulness throughout your whole life.

So, in other words, you keep yourself right with God by your goodness. And he says, No, it's the good work that God does in me.

So really The good works that He does in you.

So, are you the one doing them?

So, if you see a woman across the street that needs help with her groceries. And you go across the street and help with the groceries in a car or something like that. Is that you doing it, or is it God doing it? And they'll say, was God doing it through me? I said, okay, are you getting any credit for it?

Because if you say yes, then you're doing it. If you say no, then it has no bearing on your salvation. Because if you say you have to do something in order to achieve the endurance to the end, then you're not the one doing it, then it doesn't apply to you. You see? And I'll say things like this, corner them, and then the chatter in the room is: Matt just got destroyed by his own logic.

Whoa. And so I call, you know, doofus, the masculine plural form of in nouns in Greek is the OI ending oi. That means masculine, plural, nominative. And anyway, I won't get into all that. This masculine plural.

So I have fun. I say, oh, that's a bunch of Dufoy. A bunch of Dufoceses. That's another way of saying it. Dufoy are talking.

And it's just amazing to me. And Through all this conversation I'm having with you guys out there listening to this, this is something I get into regularly with people. And they know who I am. And so they, you know, they flock to Matt Slick's here. Let's go and do whatever we can to oppose what he says.

That's what it is. And then last night, after two hours of this, I got to go, I got to go. You know, it's late. I want to go watch TV and relax for the rest of the evening, like at 10:30 at night, quarter to 11. And I said, I'm going to leave you guys with the gospel.

And as soon as I start talking about the gospel, all the time they interrupt. Whenever I tell them, you need to just trust in Jesus, not your baptism, not your communion, not your church, not your tradition, not your councils, but Jesus. Oh man, that's all I've got to say, is that. And they so often just jump right over there and overspeak so that I can't get it out. And I tell them, why are you stopping me from preaching the gospel?

Who wants that? And then they quiet because they're stuck. This is what I endure. And let me tell you, you know, I walk into it, but I'm going to say I learn things out of this. And then what I do is I write them up in articles, tell it to you on the radio, and things like that.

So. Guess what? I do the heavy lifting. I go out there and face the blizzard of stupidity and heresy? And get snowballs, heretical snowballs, thrown at me upside the head.

While people are insulting me. And then I extract all the good stuff out of it, and then it's here on the radio. Hey, guess what I found out? Guess what I learned? And this is some of the stuff I do.

And hope you guys appreciate all the obstreperous individuals that throw a name persiflage at me with the heretical illogic out of the book of Deuterectomy.

So, this is the kind of stuff I'm enduring. And hey, I'm just letting you know. Yeah. By the way, if you want to give me a call, it's easy. 877207.

2276. Also, you can email me info at carm.org. Info at CARM.org and just put a subject line radio comment or radio question. And I just want to let you know that we do stay on the air by your support. And I want to thank you, those of you who are already supporting and have signed up and gone to the donate thing on the new site.

Thank you so much. You have no idea how much you're loving and what you're making possible. Praise God. Hey, we'll be right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy: 877-207-2276. And we've got an email.

which is really uh it's a good email question. And um This comes up a lot. In the discussions I have with Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics. How would you answer Roman Catholics, and it applies to EO also, who say that we can't rely on the Bible because the church is the one who gave the Bible to the church? But the question really is, is the Our CEO will say, we can't use the Bible because we can't justify how it was arrived at.

I recently wrote an article about this over the past few weeks and released it dealing with that, the fallaciousness of that. And I'm going to go through some of the stuff. This is just some of the stuff I had to deal with on a regular basis. And so, what the EO and the RC do at this point. is they confuse recognition of something with c with uh creation of something.

They confuse them, they conflate them, they kind of join them. And they don't have a logical bridge by which they can justify the statement that you have to be able to. say how the Bible's arrived at in order to use it. That's a fallacious thought. Because By analogy, I don't have to know how medicine is arrived at.

to use it to take a A vitamin, for example. I don't have to know how vitamins are developed, researched. Blended, packaged, etc. in order to use one. I don't need to do that.

And so. Their logic would be: you can't take a vitamin unless you know how it's arrived at, how it got here, otherwise, you can't use it. It's dumb. But this is what they do. And I believe the reason they use this kind of very faulty logic is because.

They're just swinging at air. That's one of the things I'll say to them. I'll say to sometimes I'll be talking to them and I'll have them in a corner and I'll say, You know, you're just swinging at air right now because I painted you into a corner. You can't get out. You're just swinging.

You're just saying stuff. I said, You give me no logic, you give me no scripture. You just start saying, Well, I can't use the Bible unless I can tell you how it's written. And I said, I don't recognize that as being a logical assertion on your part.

Now, if you can use logic and/or scripture to verify why your statement is something I need to answer, then go ahead. And they can't do it. And I say, stop swinging in the air. And then I'll say to them, And this is when I say, everybody, ready? I say.

Next. Yeah. Okay. So there's an internal witness I tell people. Jesus says in Matthew 10, 27, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them.

It is not the church that gave us the Bible, and I'll show you why in a minute. It's not the church that gave us the Bible. It's God who gave us the Bible. What does the church do? Recognizes the word of God.

Jesus says, My sheep hear my voice and I know them. I've told people. The sheep don't go around to other sheep and say, by our authority, we're telling you who the shepherd is. That's not how it works. And so They are so desperate.

to promote the worship and adoration of their church. that they adopt Um Bad thinking. That's one of the examples.

Now, one of the things I'll say to them is: well, look. The Old Testament Jews, according to Romans 3.2, God says the oracles of God were entrusted by God to the Jews. But they weren't uh infallible. God used the fallible people to bring about the standard of God's word, which was still their judgment. The Word of God was given through fallible people.

And yet it was a standard of righteousness. And the reason I bring this up, or we need to bring it up now, is because what the RC and the EO will say is that councils are infallible and you need. infallible counsels to declare what doctrines are true. And then my response is, what makes you think that? What makes you think that?

The Old Testament Jews. Were the their prophets were they infallible? Of course not. Was God able to give fallible infallible word through the fallible prophets? Yes.

So you don't need an infallible counsel, an infallible counsel, do you? First born, how do you know they're infallible? How do you know? And I say to them. You know, different councils have different takes on things.

They contradict each other, just like the church fathers do. Oh, they don't like that. No, they don't like that.

Now, and I asked him, how do you know that the church authority that you have to tell us is correct? This is important because they're going to claim what's called apostolic succession. Apostolic succession is Peter laid hands on so-and-so, who laid hands on so-and-so, etc., down to the present day. And because, this is what their claim is, because we have apostolic authority through the laying out of hands, we're the true church.

Now It's like saying a mechanic taught another mechanic how to fix a car, you know, and there's fifty mechanics how to fix cars. That means this mechanic is is the one who has all the authority to f to uh fix cars. You no, it doesn't butt? Doesn't follow. Their statements don't logically follow.

They are not required. Not required. And they don't see this. They don't see the problems of the logic that I point out to them. I'll say to them: look.

You don't recognize the fact that you have a premise, but the premise doesn't necessarily lead to your conclusion. You have to have a bridge between these that necessitates the response that you think is required in your premises. You can't do that. Last night I was talking to another guy, and he was a very good interlocutor. Very polite and intelligent, and we disagreed.

It was a great conversation. It really was. He wasn't obstreperous, rude, interruptive. He's very polite. And he was saying that he thought that PSA, penal substitutionary atonement, where Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross.

Yeah. necessarily leads to the destruction of the Trinity. Logically speaking, therefore, PSA is invalid. And I said, okay, that's your premise. Lay it out.

Why is that? He says, well, if. Jesus bears the sin, and of people, it becomes his sin, Imputed to him. By imputation means by legal declaration is transferred to him. then that would necessarily break fellowship in the Trinity and therefore destroy the Trinity.

And I said the weakness of your your your uh Your argument is to say it necessarily destroys fellowship. I say, take me for example. When I sin, my fellowship with God is affected, but not destroyed. because he lives in me. and that fellowship will always be there.

Just as Jesus, by the nature of being the second person of the Trinity, by necessity, the fellowship communion can never be broken. And so it's not a moral application. It's a legal declaration upon the person of Christ. And the week and furthermore, I said, you can't say. That it logically necessitates that such imputation of sin necessarily means the fellowship between the Father and the Son is destroyed.

You have to say it's destroyed. Where it doesn't exist anymore, but nothing in the statement requires that. You can say there's an effect, but what kind of an effect and to what extent is it? And I said, this is the weakness in your problem, the weakness of your argument. And this is the kind of stuff that I have to deal with, which, you know, for me, it's just entertainment.

And so this is the kind of thing that they think they think. But they don't. They think they're thinking well, but they're not. And I try and show them. That no, that is a fallacy called this, that's a fallacy called that.

Or your premises don't necessarily draw a conclusion. And here's a true example where it does. All men are mortal.

Socrates was a man Therefore Socrates was mortal. that's necessarily the case. You need, and I say to them, you need to have a premise that necessitates a conclusion for your position to be valid. You can't do that because that's what your premises require. And then he tells me I lost again.

Hey, we'll be right back after these messages. There's nobody waiting. Why don't you give me a call? 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. I don't know if the phones are working, but they said the test, the producer Keith, said it was. And so I don't know if you guys want to give me a call.

We can see a couple calls kind of came up but then dropped. I don't know. Anyway, the number is 877-207-2276. Um Let's see. Over here, Matt, I'm reading uh one of the texts.

Once they find out you're in ministry, they'd likely do all in their power to almost give you a whole. Cow's worth for free. There's a great reverence for God's servants. Oh, well, then, wherever that we're talking about, repeat steak, then I'll go out there wherever it is. Because I hope it's, I don't know, high or something like that, I'd be in trouble.

By the time I get the food back, I'll be in trouble. Oh, it was you testing?

Okay, they're testing. Hey, okay.

So we're getting that. There we go. Yeah. All right, here's a question that came in in 1 John 5:6. This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with water only, but with the water, with the blood.

It is the Spirit who bears witness because the Spirit is truth. What is meant by that? I'm not exactly sure, but I can offer you some. ideas. All right.

So what is the water?

Well, logically, it's either his baptism or his birth. That's one of the possibilities, and by blood probably refers to his death. Yeah. So, since the blood probably refers to his death, I think if we were to just kind of hang towards that spiritual Um then we could say water means baptism.

So when we look at this I'm not saying that's the only answer, but we go to 1 John 5:6. We need to read a little context a little bit because it's always helpful to read context and things. And we go back, it says, Who is the one who overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is the one, that's Jesus, who came by water and blood.

So, um You go to John 19, 34, it says That Jesus, when they pierced his sides, his water came out and water and blood.

So it's possible that the phrase there, water and blood. could be in reference to the actual crucifixion.

So we have three possibilities, but mainly logical possibilities. Water can mean baptism, water can mean the womb. Water can and blood as a phrase can mean the crucifixion issue, and blood by itself could be just the crucifixion issue.

So, which is it? I'm not exactly sure. Because the Bible doesn't tell us. And it says, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And uh so the context doesn't require a particular understanding of it.

So if I were to preach on this, What I would do is I would solidify uh say two or three the possibilities. And I'd say, now here's some of the possibilities that it can be logically. When I say logically, I mean within a coherent possibility. that the text is addressing. Yeah.

But it doesn't mean that either one or both or all has to be the right answer. Though we generally kind of assume one at least one of them will be.

So What we do. When I teach, I'll say, here are the possibilities.

Now let's look at each one and then narrow it down and then because we can't decide Definitively, what it is. I'll say, here's what I lean towards, and you can tell me what you think. And that's what you do.

So when it says by the water and the blood, I float between the water and blood of the crucifixion and the water being. The issue is baptism entering into the ministry at that point, and blood being the crucifixion, which is the fulfillment of that. You see, there's uh Okay. There you go, all right. All right, if you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 8-772072276.

I want to hear from you. Give me a call. Let's get to. Roberta from North Carolina. Roberta, welcome.

You're on the air. Euro. Seven years. Hello? Hi.

You're on the air. So what do you got? Oh. I'd like to know if there are two spirits. If there's a holy spirit that people uh received from Christ I was very zero.

spirit of Jesus Christ within us. who will never leave us, nor forsake us. Yeah, that's the same spirit. No, it's the same thing. It's the same thing.

Yeah, it's just the the a different way of describing the the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Spirit. It's just that. There's not two different spirits. I have one more question. Can we refer to the Father as it Lord?

I can't understand you. What? Can you say it again? Can we refer to this father? I'm sorry, I can't understand what you're asking.

I'm sorry, there's a a couple of words that just are just not clear. The connection is not very good. And so can we send it? Can you hear me now? Yes.

Can you hear me now? Yes.

Yeah, can we hear too forever? As Lord? No. Can I refer to the Father as Lord? Yes, we can.

Yes.

Yeah, okay. That is all I needed to know.

Okay. Sure. There you go. All right. Well, thank you very much.

Okay. That was Roberta from North Carolina. That was a difficult connection. But we got to it, I think, a little bit. All right, let's get to DJ from Ohio.

DJ, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you. Sure. What do you got?

And uh then Then the call dropped. Let's see if the person's coming back in. That's what happened. It happens every now and then, not a big deal. Hey, look, if you want to give me a call, the number is easy, 8772072276.

Let's get back to DJ from Ohio.

Okay, you there? We lost him. I'm here. Can you hear me? Yes, I can.

Yes, I can. I've never called it in to a radio station before, so I'm a little anxious. You're doing fine. We'll see. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on.

Dr. Mark Heiser in his book, Unseen Realms. I've seen several of his. conventions on YouTube, and they sound very similar to something I heard of back in the eighties. What are your thoughts?

I started reading that book, The Unseen Realm, because people were asking about it, and I got, I don't know, 40 pages in. or so and I remember underlining some stuff going, no, no, no, no, that's not logically required. I think he's stretching it too much here. And it started happening more and more. And I said, okay, I'm done reading.

And uh So Though there's some interesting information in there, and I think he's a good scholar, I think he was pushing the information towards the directions that weren't necessary.

So, when I preach and teach, and I do this kind of thing, I try and be as fair to the text as possible and not say, this is what it must mean. When we're not clear, when it's not clear. And I say that to people. And so when people start doing that, I I tend to lose confidence in their ability to exegete. And that's what's the case with with him.

So also is the issue of the Divine Counsel. which I just I saw in 82. Uh Which basically, what he's saying is that God is presiding over a council of lesser divine beings.

Now, when I was reading the book, I remember this, him saying that, and I remember thinking, why is he not? Defining specifically what he means by these divine beings in relationship to the divine one who's God, Yahweh. Because that would be absolutely necessary in order to avoid any confusion. And I didn't see it. It's certainly possible.

I zoned reading through something and missed. But uh I remember where where is it? And they didn't see it. And that to me is a fundamental weakness.

So if I'm writing an article about divine beings and say there's lesser divine beings, it's necessary that I define what I mean. Because there's only one divine being when we say there's one being who is God. If we say there's lesser divine beings, then the word divine takes on an additional meaning, not restricted to the nature of the Holy One, of the true and living God.

Now that word divine takes on a different meaning in that it could mean that there are are just angelic realms that are called divine. But if that's the case, then what does it mean when you apply it to God? Because then, are you saying the category of divinity with angels is the same with the category of divinity with God? But you can't. Because God's the uncreated divine being, where the divine counsel in this sense would be the created divine being.

So, this means two levels of divinity.

Well, why would you use the same word? because it's going to cause confusion. And that's why I would never do that. I would never say they're divine beings. I'd say, if I was writing and say, there was a council of Psalm 82.

What is this counsel? And I would say, I won't call it and can't call it a council of divine beings because of the potential problems of what this could lead to.

So, what I will call it is, and then, you know, say something appropriate, like a council. of sorts. And I'd even put the word counsel in in quotation marks. and then define it. by looking at how it's used.

This is how it needs to be done. To avoid confusion, now we got a break. Can you hold on?

Okay, hold on. Hold your break back, okay? Sure. Hey folks, if you read that caffeine's messages, please stay tuned. Right back.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, we have two open lines: 8772-07-2276. Let's get back on with DJ from Ohio.

You still there? I'm here. Okay, I just want to add one more thing really fast. He also references extra-biblical books And really uses them as sources of authority by which then varying spiritual truths can be derived. And this is dangerous as well.

So the two main problems is that he doesn't define the issue of divinity properly, risking polytheism, and uses extra-biblical sources.

Okay? in a way they I think is too too uh too crediting. Uh to those extra biblical sources.

Okay. Can I ask one more question? Sure. What's your take on his premise of the three rebellions? I don't know what that is.

I'll better look that up.

So This is very interesting. Uh Uh Well, let me see if I can research it really fast. The Three Rebellions because I you know There was a rebellion of Satan before some say before the cre the fall of man. And then another one says that it's man, Adam was a rebellion. And then you could say that.

the necessity of the Genesis flood. Oh. the people then.

So, um And then rebelling then Babel was a kind of rebellion also.

So What's your question about them whether I just found it interesting the way he defined those events as. Um Three rebellions and Um the Blood, suppose the first rebellion with Adam was really. with this divine Being the watcher, he calls him. Which expelled Adam. The second was the.

Um the watchers and the human females, and that was taken care of by the flood and then um Babble being a a Rebellion um You know the faith. Um A rebellion that was brought about by divine beings. And that he went in to say that the final. Um body of that was Goliath. Yeah, yeah.

So he gets into more detail than we can talk about here. But I found that very interesting, how he. His take on that. Yeah, w the way you're ref you're ref uh referring to him is concerning me. Because it looks like you're adopting his phraseology: divine beings.

As I said at the beginning of the call, this is a serious problem.

Now, just so you know. I've been doing this for 46 years. Radio for 23 years. I've written 5,000 articles on my website. And I've had Hundreds and hundreds of debates and thousands of impromptu discussions.

Now, the reason I'm saying all this is because after a while you get a feel for things. And one of the feels is when someone defines something in a way that they like. That can potentially lead to problems, and then they're corrected by other scholars who say, you shouldn't do it this way, and they don't. This is a formula for heresy. It's a formula for serious problems.

And then, what I've noticed is sometimes the followers will get on board with that terminology or that ideology, and then they become entranced by it. And then you can't get them out.

So, I'm not saying it's with you. I'm just saying this is what I've seen over the years happen so many times. And I'll warn them, and I'll say, look, you see, it's like this issue of the word divine. There's only one being who is God. Isaiah 43.

Uh 43 10, 44, 6, 44, 8, 45, 5.

So we can go through those and say there's only one God. God says there's none like him. None like him. He's it.

So how then would you say God is divine and there's other divine beings? you have a serious problem right away. And this is because He's not submitting, in my opinion, the terminology to the way God uses it in Scripture.

So let me give you an example of something.

So the Bible says that God knows people.

Now I could ask. I could say, does he know everyone? And you might say, well, yes, he does. He's God. He knows everything.

But if I say, no, no, he doesn't. He doesn't know everyone. Because in Matthew 7, 23, Jesus says, get away from me. I never knew you. What does he mean by that?

If God says, I knew you, or I know you, it means you're saved. If he says, I never knew you, means you're not saved.

So the point is, how does God use the word no, K-N-O-W, in the Bible? How does he use it? The way to find out is to look at every instance, which I've done. And you see the pattern that he uses it. And believe it or not, he only says he knows believers.

He doesn't say he knows an unbeliever, except for one place in the gospel where Jesus says, I know you, you're of your father, the devil. And he's speaking to the unbelievers at that point. That's all the phraseology, but it's immediately qualified.

So you learn patterns like this. And the principle here is let God's Word decide what God's Word means.

So what I see happening with Heiser is the word divine is something he's defining according to what he wants it to be, not doing a word study on how it is used in the varying variants.

So in light of this, for example, I'm known talking a lot here, but... I wrote 182 articles related to the issue of annihilationism. 182. And about 100 of those, or 120, were word studies, simply learning how God uses particular words. And I learned from that.

Now is that what he's doing? That's a question. If he's not. And I agree with you, and I use his terminology because I don't know what else to do, but. to define what he's saying.

And you're correct. What it reminded me of is something I heard back in the 80s. A group was talking about Greek mythology and how that those Greek gods on Mount Olympus might have been real gods with a little G. Created for God's purpose, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm thinking, is he taking this off?

That and for the life of me I can't remember. No, I'm familiar with that. Yeah, that's okay. I'm familiar with that as well.

So I'm thinking, is he just taking off on that? But. Um it bothers me that in how he talks about His his um how he sees things, that it almost feels like he's Putting God in a box, and I didn't like that.

Well good. That's discernment. Creatures were whatever you want to call them, were they. Making God do things in. I did I didn't like that, but I did like What I did like about Some of the things he says is that he you goes back to the Jewish culture and and um in how he explains things.

And I think we could use a little bit more of the culture that's part of hermeneutics. And there are books that go into that. And I can tell you some book titles to go into that can teach you a great deal if you want to learn.

Some very good books. But the term watchers is used in the Bible. It's used in Daniel, as a matter of fact, the Watchers angelic realm. That's fine. But they're not divine.

Only God is divine.

Now and so when you start saying divine beings you're right away causing problems. And the Mormons have used his thinking now. to uh support their theology. And the r this is bad. Because Mormonism teaches God for another planet as a goddess wife.

You can learn handshakes and hugs in a temple to become a god. And so that's all false stuff.

Well Now they're using what he is saying. in support of their view because of his failure. to be precise. Uh according to scripture.

Okay. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your time and all that you do, your research and everything. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.

Thank you. All right. Well, God bless. All right, we had a caller waiting, but we have nobody waiting right now.

So, this is an interesting issue here. Um I have a practice belief. That when I'm approaching God's Word. I have certain assumptions, I have certain presuppositions. And what I I've learned to do pretty well.

is put those aside. and say what's it saying.

Now, I'm not saying I do it perfectly, but I'm saying Yeah, you know, I do this all the time.

Okay, what does it say? Not what I think it means. Not what I hope it means. What is it saying? And if I look at a word, Like the word Elohim, which occurs 6,517 times in the Old Testament.

Well What I think is 65, 17, or is it 50? Anyway. What does it mean?

How do I find out what God is saying? One of the things I've done in Bible studies over the years is say, hey, I'm going to assign homework. I want you to study the word shoe. In the Bible. How does God use it?

You may think that's well, what's the purpose of that? You won't know until you see how God uses it. Or the word door. You know, Jesus is the door. or the shepherd sits in the doorway.

Well, or they walk through a door. They have different senses of the word. And as you study this, you start seeing what God is doing with the words. And when you see what God is doing with the words. Then you can start going, oh, I get it.

I see what he's doing, like the word to know. Like, for example, I said to the previous caller to know, you know, the Greek word is gynosko. That's the word in Greek, gynosko, to know, okay. And so he only knows believers. In fact, that's Matthew 7:23, and also in Galatians 4:8.

When you did not know God, you serve by nature those which are not gods.

Now that you've come to know God, or rather, are known by him.

Now you've come to serve the true and living God. And Paul makes that correction. He goes, You're known by Him. And so, whenever it says God knows you, it's a salvific statement.

Well, this is what's interesting: that's the word gnosco. And in. And so you learn, you go, okay, in Romans 8:29, it says, God, those whom he foreknew, he also predestined.

Well, the word for foreknow is pro-bedestined. Gnosco It's the same word, just the word pro-edit. It's to know ahead of time. And what's really interesting, if it's the case that gnosco means in the sense we're using it, it's a reference of salvation in an intimate saving way. and progonosco is used, does it then mean that those are the ones he's knowing ahead of time in a salvific way?

Because it says those whom he foreknew, he also predestined. They become the same group.

So when you start doing word studies like this, things like that pop out. You go, oh, ooh, That's interesting. It forces you to think. And when you start thinking, you start learning, and when you start mapping what you're learning, oh my goodness. it becomes awesome.

And then you can do a radio show. Hey, so there you go. If you want, you have to wait till tomorrow to give me a call. Tomorrow's Thursday, and I hope you have a good evening, everyone. We're out of time.

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Well, back tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. Have a great evening. Another program powered by the Truth Network.