Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Yeah. Mm. Oh, there we go. Hi, everybody. How are you doing?

It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date. Is January 16th, 2025? 25 is a good bad habit there.

26, so it's January 16th, 2026. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 87207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. It's easy.

And um if you want to watch the show, you can do that. All you need to do is direct a browser to to uh rumble.com and go to uh forward slash mat slick live uh just or do a search on there and you can find it Not a big deal, but there it is. And also the same thing on YouTube, I believe. And we're doing it on X as well. Facebook and stuff like that.

So, just all one word match look life.

Alright, so here we are, and Oh.

Now, Monday, there's no show Monday because it's Martin Luther King holiday, so that's fine. Not a big deal there. I got a day off, so to speak. And um And trying to decide what to talk about. I already have some ideas, of course, but because nobody's calling right there at the moment.

And I could do some QA, but we had a really interesting Bible study last night here at the house. Um I went over in detail for an hour, very slowly, And I laid the case down. the ontological Essence That Has properties, things that are necessary and accidental, we do this stuff really slowly. And I explained how the Roman Catholic Eastern Orthodox Eucharist Is Just simply illogical. And if something's illogical, it can't be true.

And um it's just not true because logic comes out of the mind of God. And so just stuff like this. We went through it, and I wasn't sure if they would like that at the depth that I went in, but I did go slowly. About seven or eight people there and uh They all said the same thing. They all said, man, they really liked it.

They said it was it was very interesting. They'd never heard this before. And they're looking forward to the next month. We do it third Thursday.

Okay. And on the way out, they said, How come you don't give us homework? Because I gave them homework a few months ago. I said, Look, I want you to. Go to a certain section of scripture and learn it and then teach me, you know, whatever.

And I said, Okay, you want homework? And I said, Go to Acts chapter sev seventeen. Marsh Hill. which I have stood on Mars Hill. I've actually stood on Mars Hill.

And just thanks to Eric Johnson and his work of getting people over there. In the uh the uh tours we've gone to Israel and and um turkey and Italy and Greece, just really good. I want to do a Reformation tour through England and Germany and France. I want to do that. If he ever sets it up on it, I'll definitely go on that.

But uh anyway, so uh Been to those sites and been on Mars Hill. And so I asked them to go through, look at Acts 17, what Paul is teaching, and just find. the logical progression of what he's doing. Doesn't have to be in-depth. I don't need pages of material.

I should just. Give me three, four, five, six, seven sentences, whatever it is, whatever it is. Just like, I want you to look at the logic of what it is he does. And then you can do that.

So that's what I did. You know, how many people want homework?

Well, when I teach studies, apparently people People want homework. And uh they they like it.

So So there you go. All right. Hey, look, if you want to give me a call, you can. The number is 877-207-2276. And if you're a newbie tuning in, this is Matt Slick Live.

And my real name is Matt Slick, S-L-I-C-K. It's perfect for radio. I have a radio face, also. Great for radio, they tell me.

So that works out very nicely. I've been doing radio for 21 years now, five days a week, another two one day a week.

So I guess you could say it's 23 years of radio. And I'm a Christian apologist. I defend the Christian faith, teach theology, debate. I'll be in a debate in a couple of weeks in Dallas. And tomorrow, I've got to do an online discussion on Jesus and the Jehovah's Witness view of the resurrection.

I gotta go through. I'll finish that. Take me a couple more hours of work today to do that. I get a PowerPoint, I'm gonna show them. And go through some logic issues there and explain why the J-W's or Jehovah's Witnesses are non-Christian cult.

Just like the Mormons, non-Christian cult. And um Go through stuff like that.

So that's what I'm doing. We've developed, if you go to carm.org forward slash calendar, you can see what we've got there. We've got some calendar stuff we're adding in as things occur. And in May, somebody wants me to step in to do a debate with an Eastern Orthodox guy. Does baptism save?

Yeah. And so I think that's what the title is. The title is very specific. We need to have specific titles because you don't want to be rambling all over the place and all kinds of topics. And then someone else wants to debate me on baptism: is baptism necessary for salvation?

Where do these people? You know, it's just ridiculous that they want to do that. But I said, who are you? And um Why would I debate this guy?

So sometimes people want to debate me. You know, they're just some guy who's learned three verses and they think I got it down. And I'm not knocking them, I'm just saying, well, you know, who are you? And why should I debate you? I don't want, you know, just debate every person.

And which reminds me, I need to uh revisit the debate requirements that people are going to have. And uh one of the things I want to do is to get the um you know debate thing uh system going on Carm. We've had, you know, in the past couple of months, there's been a Major change in my life, and so we're still adjusting, I'm still adjusting, and things like that. All right, all right, all right. I think I'm gonna do is just get to some questions.

Might as well do that.

Some questions that people have sent in if you do have a question. You can send it to info at carm.org. Info at carm.org and put in the subject line radio comment or radio question. And we can get to them. And let's see, also, you can give me a call if you want.

eight seven seven two zero seven two two. Um How do you explain? Here's an how do you explain faith without works is dead verse?

Well, it's easy. In James chapter 2, he says, I want to know how to respond to Catholics. Let me show you how to do this. What it is with Catholics. I'm going to give you an example of something here.

A few days ago, I was talking to. As a Catholic. And he wasn't very good at critical thought. He wasn't stupid. But when you have your frontal lobes tied behind your back, Because of the false doctrine of Catholicism, then you will just make a lot of mistakes.

And he was making mistakes, and I was calling him out on it. And um So we went to the issue of James 2 and faith and works and all of this stuff. And um And it was really interesting because he was not able to understand the very, very basics of the logic. of some of the things that well needed to be discussed. Yeah.

And There's that. Let's see. That one. I'll do this one.

Okay. So, how do you respond in James chapter 2 when they say faith without works is dead? All right. So let's start at verse 14 and we'll go through it. And this is what it says.

James chapter 2 verse 14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works, can that faith save him? What he's saying here is the dead faith. Can the dead faith save you? The answer is no.

Because true faith is different than false faith. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed, and be filled. and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so, faith, if it has no works, is dead. being by itself.

Now, a lot of people will stop there, and what I'm going to do is continue to read through, but we'll comment here. What James is talking about is the difference between true saving faith. and false, not saving faith. That's what he's talking about. But he says in verse 14: if someone says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him?

What faith is he talking about? the faith that is dead, The faith that has no works. He's not saying the works are what saves you. Where he says, can that faith Save you. That's critical.

So He goes on and he says In verse eighteen But if some one may well say You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So, what he's talking about here is: I can't look into your heart, you can't look into my heart to see what kind of faith I have. God does that.

So this is not talking about Uh about the face That God grants to us, as in justifying it, or God has to look at our works to see if it's real. No, God grants that we have faith. Philippians 1:29, and that faith is in Jesus. John 6:29.

So this is not about. This section of Scripture is not about the saving faith that God has to see with your works, because that would make no sense because He's already demonstrated that He has given you that faith in the Scriptures. He grants it.

So it's real. It's from Him.

Okay, now. Verse 18 says, You have faith. You may say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without the works. I will show you my faith by my works.

You see What he's doing is saying, I'm showing you the difference between true and false faith. I'll see what's in you. What's in you will come out. If there's no works. then you don't have real saving faith.

But I have saving faith, he's saying, real faith, because it manifests in works. It's not that the works save you. No, because he he corrects this later. We'll get to it. It's that There's a true faith and a false faith.

He says in verse 19, You believe that God is one, you do well, the demons also believe and shudder.

So what kind of faith is he saying you believe that God is one? See, you believe in God. You have a mental ascent. This is the faith that James is talking about. Your faith is just like that of demonic forces.

It's not real. Is not that what comes from God?

So, how can you tell if someone has real faith? Let's see it. Let's see what your works demonstrate. That's what he's saying. If you don't have any works, And your faith is not done.

Okay. Yeah. And he says in verse 20, But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Who's he talking to? The man, not God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Well, of course he was, but not before God. Because it's not talking about justification before God. It's talking about justification before people. Because he says, You have faith, I have works, show me yours, I'll show you mine. says your faith is is demonic.

He says, Don't you understand? Abraham was justified by works. In other words, the context is demonstrating what faith he has. And Abraham had that demonstration of faith by what he did. But notice the faith and the works are not the same thing.

The faith is different than works. But they're related. When you have true faith, you're going to have true work to produce out of that. If you have false faith, you're going to have no works or false works produced out of that. And all that he's saying is that you can tell which is which by what we see.

That's all he's doing. And he goes on in verse 20. Verse 22 says, You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

Now, this means that as you go through life and you have trials and tribulations, that you have to struggle and you see how God is faithful, and your faith is perfected. to the experiences of what you're doing by living this out. Then he goes to verse 23, and scripture was fulfilled, which says, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned him as righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. Notice.

He says, Abraham believes God. And was reckoned as righteous. Not his works, not his faith and works, but his faith alone. That's what justifies before God, but faith before worship before people justifies before people. That's all that's going on.

Hey, We'll be right back after these messages, please. Yeah. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show.

Hope you're enjoying listening. And why don't we just get on the phones here with Carl from North Carolina? Carl, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt.

I just want to ask a question about In Paul's ministry, he came across a woman named Lydia. who had um I I guess quite a bit of wealth that was in The business of purple dyes and stuff, but after His encounter with Lydia, did she go off and spread the gospel to parts of Europe? Afterwards or not. I was just interested in past history after her encounter with Paul. I don't know.

Um that's a good question. What happened to Lydia after uh after what yeah, afterwards? I don't know. Good question. Never been asked that before.

How about that? It's a good question. What happened to raptors?

Okay, I'll look that one up. And the other question I have is on: if you ever read anything on. Blaze, uh Pasquelle. Blaise Pascal, yeah, he was a Christian, a mathematician. Reformed, I believe.

Yeah, a little bit. Mm-hmm.

Okay. I'm just reading a book on him that and uh that he uh wrote uh back then uh called uh Pen Face. And I just want to get see him getting the take. If this guy is a Christian, as you just said, he's reformed.

So. That's um a good uh A good indication I'll continue with the book. Yeah, I believe he was reformed. He's a brilliant mathematician.

So he understood logic, understood complex stuff. He was died in the 1600s. Um And so He's raised a uh Okay, I'm I'm looking a little bit he was raised a Catholic.

So I don't know if he moved Uh let's see. Did uh let's see I wonder if he left Catholicism. Yeah, I was under the impression he was getting persecuted for some of the letters and uh things that he was uh publishing. Probably, because you know, he's a thinker and um. Right.

And so uh If he's thinking through these things logically and has access to the scriptures, then he's going to start asking questions that the Catholic Church isn't going to like.

So that is certainly the case. If anybody does a serious study of the Bible and starts thinking at the same time, bad combination if you want to stay a Catholic.

So uh well, I just just started to read his his book and his letters, and I I really don't want to get into if he's you know, if he if he is uh following Catholicism. I'm probably would end the book now. But if not, I'm going to continue on it because it is very complex. And as you said, he is a thinker, mathematician, and very much puts logic and things in mind with this. And it is a very complex Read.

Yes, now here's the thing. I could do some research and see if he left Catholicism.

So here's a comment that I just researched. It says He became a fierce defender of Jansenism. which is a of reform movement within the Catholic Church.

So he emphasized total depravity of man, absolute necessity, God's grace for salvation, views that are similar to the Protestant reformers. And uh because of this the Jesuits Church leaders viewed him with suspicion.

So there you go.

Okay. Great.

Well, I'll I'll I'll continue with the book, definitely.

Okay, there you go, buddy. Hope that helps a little. All right. I appreciate it. God bless.

Alright man, God bless.

Okay. All right. There we go. Hey, folks, if you want to give me a call, the number is 8772. 072276.

Let's get to Tom from Ohio. Tom, welcome. You're on the air. Hi. Um My question is uh pretending the uh are we born into sin From the And it was a child.

Yes. And then later on, okay. That mm-hmm. That's what I thought. Uh what verse would you recommend that I should uh Uh study that Okay, so let me find the phrase born into sin.

I think I know where it is, but I'm going to just verify first. And uh Uh let's see, let's see. Where's the phrase? Because um One says he's sold into sin.

Now, there is a. Let's see. Um So I'm looking, I have my Bible program open, Born into Sin. What it means is, I'll give you other verses, what it means is dealing with what's called original sin. And uh So, for example, Psalm 51 is where David says, You know, behold, I was brought forth in sin or in iniquity.

We have Romans excuse me, Ephesians 2.3, where it says that we are by nature children of wrath. In Romans 5.19, it says that through the transgression of the one the many were made sinners. We uh Let's see. Yeah. So And then we have Romans 5.12, where sin entered the world through one man.

We have 1 Corinthians 15, 22 that says, in Adam all die. Yeah. And Romans 5:18. Great, man. That was really good.

Yeah, I appreciate that. That's a lot. And that's. Yeah, that just will refresh my Memory on those. Uh All right.

I have one more. Have you are you backed up any? Go ahead. All right, this is on John chapter two. It's the water to wine.

Yes when uh When uh uh um Let's see.

Sorry about that. When Jesus Says, woman, what does your concern have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. This but that's a And I or the new King James. But is that from what I perceive Is that it?

He's He's looking. into his His wedding with us And uh in the future of from that point. Is that what you're looking at? Do you see that? Or is it just?

No, not really. I don't see that. There were six water pots.

Now, what's interesting is, if I remember correctly, let me show you some stuff here, what's probably really going on. Because it says in John chapter 1, on the third day.

Now this is interesting. The third day. There was the wedding at Cana. And then we have the wine water thing. Where does wine come from?

plants. What was created, what was created on the third day? Jesus, I know. That's what I said. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

The six days of creation in Genesis, what was created on the third day? Oh man, okay.

So it's interesting that John mentions on the third day is when he he did what he did with the plant stuff. Very generically speaking, which is reflecting of the third day of creation, which is where plants remain, vegetation, plants yielding seed. This is an indirect reflection of his creative work. Because in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God. And God created.

So that's just part of the background. When we get back to the break, we'll talk a little bit more about it, okay?

So hold on, all right, buddy. All right, thanks.

Okay. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 8772-0722. 7-6. Let's get back on with Tom. Are you still there?

Yes, sir.

Alright now where were we? Where were we? Uh we were talking about the g you were talking about the grape In the third day. Oh, yeah, of course. That's right.

So, the wedding. All right, so thank you for reminding me.

So, what happened here is that on the because God Himself, well, let's put it this way. In Genesis 1:1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and God said, Let there be light.

Now in John 1:1. It says at the beginning was the Word, Word was with God, etc. And it says in verse 4, He was the light of men, it shines forth in the darkness.

So John the Apostle is drawing back to the showing that Jesus is the Creative Word. And so when we go to Genesis chapter, I mean to John chapter 2, he mentions the third day, which is the day that in the creation order that plants were developed.

So he's demonstrating the deity of Christ here, and he's drawing an indirect reference to Genesis chapter 1 in the created order. And so when he says, when she says, Uh they have no wine. Because he's under the law, Galatians 4:4, and he needs to honor his mother and his father.

So she's kind of pulling rank a little bit while he's under the law. And he this is a rebuke, woman, what does that do with us? You generally didn't speak to your mother that way, but he's correcting her because he says, My hour has not yet come. The reason they wanted to kill him was because he was performing miracles and in the process making others look bad. He was doing things.

So she wanted him to answer the question and the issue, and so hence we have the first record. Of his miracles. The first miracle here. It began in the coincidental image of the Third day. He was there the third day of creation, the third.

Plants on the third day, controlling those plants. on the third day, demonstrating his deity, it might be that she knew who he was. Because she knew he could do stuff, but this is the beginning of his miracles, so why is she asking that? And then we could just infer some things from that. And so anyway, they were Jewish custom of purification, the six water pots.

How many days were in creation? Six days. Six days, yeah. That's right.

And then he was created, he was able to change all of it. this is reflecting back to the created order. And it was perfect, and it was pure, and it was mature.

So we can learn that when Jesus created the wine, it wasn't early wine, it was fermented wine, it was very good wine, it was mature. When God created the earth, He created it mature. Adam was mature. because he does things in completeness, with maturity. And that's how God works, and so we can draw a great deal out of this.

Now, to draw it to the wedding feast of his future wedding feast, I wouldn't go that far with that. Because that's not it. That is spoken of in a different way, different contexts, a different time.

Okay?

Okay. Very good, very good. Can I give you one more? I want a quick one. Sure.

When is the kingdom open? Is that when Christ is there teaching and spreading the word, or is it? When he's at the cross, dying at the cross. That's a false dichotomy. It's this or that.

The answer is that it's the kingdom of God is among us. in the sense that when Jesus was walking the earth, He says the kingdom of God is among you. because he is the king.

Now in Matthew 12, 22 to 32 He says that uh Satan is bound. And this is important because, in order to cast out demons, he has to first bind the strong man. He's casting out demons, therefore, the strong man is bound.

Now, this is important because a lot of people think that the future kingdom is when Satan's going to be bound, and that's the coming kingdom. But that doesn't fit if we understand what Jesus says: that the kingdom of God is among you. I was just looking at this a few days ago, I don't have the address memorized. But he did say that Satan was bound in Matthew 12, 22-32.

Furthermore, In Matthew 13. There are two ages, this age, the age to come. At the end of the age, when the harvest occurs, When the good are gathered, The first ones gathered are the wicked. They're gathered before the good are gathered. That's what Jesus Himself says in Matthew 13.

This is something that I just. befuddled. why people who teach eschatology don't look at this. They just skip over it, they ignore it all the time. It just bewilders how they do that.

At any rate, Jesus goes on to explain what's going on when he, in right around verse 40 of Matthew 13, when he says that the wicked are taken out of his kingdom. And that's what's important.

So you see, when we say the kingdom of God, it's not exactly easy to say exactly what or when. Because there's evidence that it was already and still is. And furthermore, let me just add this: this is a little preaching. If we were to be taught and believe that the kingdom of God is now, because Jesus is the king and we are his kings and priests. then maybe we'll start living like it instead of waiting for something better to come along, which justifies us sitting on our rears and watching T V instead of getting out and preaching and teaching, instead of supporting ministries and individuals who do that work of the ministry now.

Okay. Right. Yes, thanks very much. That's very that was very good. Thank you.

Well, you're welcome very much.

Well, God bless.

Okay. All right. Gonna bless. All right. God bless.

All right, now let's get to Anthony from Kentucky. Anthony, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, thanks for taking my call. Hey, just wanted to.

Get your take on the subject of hell. a popular subject of discussion since Kurt Cameron made some comments on it recently about him really kind of holding to the annihilationist view, and he's got this big round table that's going to air next week. And I haven't really given much research to the likes of like Ignatius or Anopius, some early church fathers that maybe hinted at some annihilationist view or John Stott's conditional immortality.

So I just wanted to get your take on the sub subject and to see if you had really researched their view where you land on the subject. Yeah, I've written uh in relation to that topic of annihilationism, I've written 182 articles. Most of them were word studies. It just became a fascinating thing for me. Guess what I found out?

Guess what I learned. Punishment is experienced.

Well Punishment is experienced. When you go through and you look how punishment is talked about, for example, Genesis 4:13, King said to God, My punishment is too great to bear. We can go to Psalm 149:7, and punishment on the people. Or Isaiah 32, 30, verse 32, and every blow of the rod of punishment. I can go on and on.

Punishment is experienced.

That's what punishment is. What does annihilationism say? The punishment is non-existence. But you don't experience non-existence.

So their punishment is not biblical? Very simple.

Okay, good deal. Thank you.

Appreciate your take. That's one point. I get others, too.

Okay. If you want, it depends. But that one point is so solid and so good and so true. It needs to be understood. Let's just say that one of those adherents of that conference.

It holds to the idea. that the human soul ceases to exist. You with me? Yes, sir.

Uh you know, I forgot his name. I'm trying to remember his name, he and I wrote an article about it. Um And that is a damnable heresy. Yeah. If you believe in pre trib rapture, post trib rapture, that's not damnable.

If you believe Jesus did not rise from the dead physically, that's a damnable heresy. If you deny the deity of Christ, that's a damnable heresy. You go to hell. A damnable heresy is the idea that the human soul ceases to exist, is annihilated and recreated. You wanna know why it's damnable.

I'll tell you why. Because Jesus Himself has two natures: a divine nature and a human nature. The attributes of both of those natures are ascribed to the one person. This is called the doctrine of the communication of the properties. Communicatio idiomatum, the Latin, That's what that means.

That means the person of Christ is comprised. of two sets of attributes. Human attributes and divine attributes. The totality of those two sets is what makes Jesus Jesus. If soul sleep, or if the idea of soul annihilation occurs upon death, Then that necessarily means Jesus himself was destroyed.

Because it would mean then that the human nature cease to exist. The attributes of the human nature no longer ascribe to the person, therefore the person of Jesus ceased to exist. That would be damnable heresy because then you don't have a true resurrection and you don't have what's called continuity.

Now there's a break.

So hold on, and if you want, we'll talk a little bit more after. Folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. Let's see if Anthony's still on from Kentucky. You're still their brother. Until here, sir.

Alright.

Now do you see why this is so stinking serious? Yes, sir.

Yes, I love the subject, and I've always believed in a conscious a conscious eternal torment that we're outstood. I've just Again, I've not really researched the annihilationist view much, though I do have a. A best friend that sits in that camp. And so I'm sure the discussion will come back up again and Like to do some more study on your website, of course, if you've written that much. I think that'd be a great resource.

Yeah, I've written a great deal on it. Like I said, most of the articles are research articles where I take a single word. How does God use it? Because what they'll do is they'll play with words. And they're going to say, well, ionios ton aeonion in the Greek, from you know, from age into the ages.

Yeah. And so that means forever and ever.

Well, let me explain something about they'll do. For example, we go to Revelation, I think it's 2010. Let me do this. This is the kind.

Now, it's been a while. It's been two or three years since I've gone through this.

So I'm trying to represent it accurately.

So check this out. This is the kind of thing they do. for the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also. and they'll be tormented day and night forever and ever. Yeah.

Well, obviously, uh the false prophet is a human being. And the beast may also be, and there's some debate, but anyway. They're thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever. Tormented, yet to be conscious for that.

Well Forever and ever. Ionios. It's uh it's ionaston ionon. is what it is in the Greek. I'm looking at it.

And so, what they'll do is they'll say, well, the phrase, Ionas tonayonon. Really literally means from the age into the ages.

So the word age can end And if it means age into the ages, then you have ending ages, so it means it can end. Forever and ever doesn't mean it's forever. It means it can end.

Okay. That's the kind of stuff they do. Yes, sir.

It's word games.

So, one of the things I ask them is: I say, Is punishment experienced? Do you know of any place where punishment is not experienced? If I punish uh a child, my child, You know, you got to sit in your room for 20 minutes and think about what you did. And uh and Yeah. And that's it?

Or what if I put them into a a a scientific excuse me, a science fiction box that for twenty minutes they didn't exist? And then when the twenty minutes is over, They're done. Were they punished? No, they weren't existing But there's no punishment. punishment is experienced.

It really comes down to one of the most simple things. And here's another thing. Yeah. Think about this logically. Condition one, condition two, condition three.

Condition one is non-existence. Condition two is you exist, you're born, you exist. Condition three is nonexistence. Condition one is before you exist, condition three is after you exist. Condition two is when you exist.

Now, let's say that someone's a bad person and annihilationism is true, and they get annihilated, so that's condition three. Condition three is punishment. Which is exactly identical to condition one. None which is nothing. How can condition one be identical to condition three.

If they one is punishment, one is not punishment.

So, what they'll do is they'll say, Will you experience the fear of being annihilated? But that's not what That's that's not the punishment. The punishment is annihilation. Not the fear of annihilation. You see, these they don't they're not thinking clearly because they they have this mindset that God won't ever do this kind of a thing where He tortures somebody forever.

God wouldn't do that. I'm going to ask him what. What universal standard of righteousness or morality do you say you have access to by which you say that is how God will or will not be? Where is that?

Well, God's all-loving. No, He's not all loving. The Bible never says he's all-loving. It says he's loving, he's just, he's holy, he's judgmental. He's uh jealous?

So you have to take all of them. Don't extract one thing. and then represent God from that. That's called the fallacy of composition.

So, the fallacy of composition is this: the engine is all chrome, therefore, the entire A car is chrome. Because that one part's chrome, everything is. One part is this, therefore, the whole part follows. It's illogical, it's called the fallacy of composition. The reverse of that is called the fallacy of the vision.

But, nevertheless, what they're doing is they're saying, well, God is, He's loving. Therefore,. He won't do such and such. He's loving, and we're going to judge all of what he is by love. And we're going to decide how it's going to work.

And he would never do that to anybody. I said, really? Why not? I asked him, Why not? Tell me the logical reason.

Tell me the biblical reason.

Now I can say logical because logic comes out of the mind of God. He's a necessary precondition for intelligibility. were able to reason because logic logos The word that became flesh logic.

So we're able to think because we're thinking the thoughts of God after Him.

So I can legitimately say, give me a logical reason, give me a biblical reason. Let's do it. If you can't do it, Stop it. And stop telling people that they can get away with their sin because they're not going to pay for eternity, because they're not going to exist to experience the punishment due to their sin. But they're gonna escape.

Good question around that. I think so, you know, again, I have a good friend of mine who I think the two things he really struggles with are exactly what you said.

Well, God is this way. I can't imagine him like election is a really tough subject with him. Um you know this uh it's Conscious eternal torment is a challenge. And so we have these discussions, and I'm of that same mindset: look, it's. from an epistemological standpoint, like there's nothing we can stand on if every word of Scripture isn't true, right?

Like if God isn't who He says He is in Scripture, then it's just going to be chaos. And so those subjects seem really cut and dry to me, but I think some of the arguments you know, around, you know, especially this From his perspective, what he's told me on annihilationism is, well, hell's still a thing. There is still a punishment. There is still a suffering.

Now, can't tell me in scripture what that duration is or how long that is. That's just the logic that comes through from his view of reading scripture, right? And so, what option, like if somebody says, yeah, hell's still a thing and there is still a punishment, they still suffer proportionately for. you know, the rejection of the gospel. Um my my view would be well that's eternal, you know.

Right, right. But then but then an alleyation comes in their view, right? But I I hold to that eternal view because it it the offense is against an eternal, holy and righteous God, right?

So where again, where would you put that reasoning? What option out of those that you gave me would you put that Reasoning that I just gave you from their perspective.

Well, you told me a lot of things there.

So are you saying then that they'll be punished for a while, then annihilated? Is that was that part of it? Yeah, that's a pretty standard view. Again, I haven't researched it all, but from what he tells me, there's a lot that adhere to that from that camp. Yes, and that's foolishness.

It's foolishness, and let me tell you why. Let's say a particular man who lives exactly fifty years, and he's committed exactly one million sins. And of these one million sins, he deserves, let's just say, a million years of punishment that he's annihilated. If that were the case, and this is just an analogy, if it were the case, then it means that his punishment is due to his sin, but his sin is because of his breaking the law. Therefore, he's satisfying the requirements of the law, meeting the due penalty of his punishment, right?

That means you satisfy the law.

Well, then why isn't he saved afterwards? Why does he get annihilated? If he's met the requirements of punishment that the law requires and he's satisfied it, Then why is he going to be annihilated? He should be saved.

Now what they have, they don't realize these people are thinking.

So what they're saying is God punished them. appropriately for his sin, So that means the debt is paid, the sin debt level is paid, and now God's going to punish him another way. But it's already been paid.

Now they're inadvertently accusing God of injustice.

Okay. That's good. I said I guess if you then if you say, well, okay, well maybe not annihilationism, then salvation, like you're pointing out, then they just become Catholic and they believe in purgatory, right?

So that's a purgatorial kind of an idea, yeah. In a kind of a weird sense. But yeah.

So the annihilationists aren't. Would it help me? Yeah, thank you for clarifying some of that. Listen, I do want to Um, give you more time to speak on this, and I'm going to utilize your website. Um, thank you for pointing out that you have that many articles written.

So, yeah, appreciate that. And one more quick question. Hey, praise God, man. Yes, sir.

If it would help that he and I, and you, all three of us, did a three-way conversation on the phone and talk about this, I can answer his questions. And this issue about election, we can talk about it. Oh, that would be great.

Okay. That would be absolutely great. Sure. And here's another thing. Error is never alone.

It's always in in bed with some another error.

So, for example, I already said it, but let me give you an example.

Well You don't exist anymore after a period of time. Why is that? Because it was called anthropological monism. Because the soul and the body are one and the same thing, some say. that leads to what's called property dualism, which is self-refuting.

And and I know I'd introduce terms you don't know, but it's self-refuting stuff.

Well, then and then that means then you get annihilated after put being punished. But then we have the problem of satisfying the law. Why are you then destroyed if you've satisfied the law? That's one error. The other error would be, well, punishment is not Experienced.

They redefine punishment as non-existence. The Bible never does that.

So it's another error that they attach.

Well, ion tone, ayon ton, ayonos. Into the ever, into the age of the ages, into the ages.

Well, that means just individual age, it doesn't mean forever. But yet, when it's applied to God, it means forever. But why the man it doesn't. There's another error. And so, what they'll do is they'll gather to themselves errors, and in order to bolster the errors that they're already committed to.

They have to develop more. And then the more you do, the worse it gets.

So someone who would, for example, reject election. Which the Bible tells us is the case. God chose us from the beginning for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says it.

Those are the words. I just quoted them.

Someone will reject that, it's because generally it's up to themselves to decide who's to be saved. Because that's another error. It's called humanist philosophy. And then to defend that, you have to gather more errors to yourself to patch the holes in your wall. And as the cracks form, you get more errors to patch them.

And then you identify with this system of patchwork. of errors that come in. And then it can come crumbling down, or we have what's called cognitive dissonance, where people just stop thinking rationally and critically. Disbelieve, then become irrational themselves, and then they become sometimes they lose their faith. when it'll come tumbling down.

So this is all serious business, okay? It definitely is, and thank you for painting out that house of errors that could be. a foundation that he's standing on. It's certainly worth following up. And I will, next conversation, bring up the option of potentially having a call.

I would love that. And I appreciate you offering that. Thank you again. for answering my question, taking my call and for your ministry.

Well, praise God, man. I was like, Do you say praise God?

Okay?

Okay. All right, folks. You too, man. God bless.

We're out of time.

Sorry, Buskman.

Sorry, Alberto. I know you waited a long time. Um And I want to hear what Buskman says. You've got to call back on Tuesday because we're off Monday. It's a holiday.

So I'll not be live on the air this coming Monday, which is January 19th.

So, no live radio on the 19th. We'll be back on the 20th, Lord willing. We'll talk to you then. Have a great weekend, everyone. God bless.

Another program powered by the Truth Network.