Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. And you're listening to Matt Slick Live. If you want to give me a call, it's easy. All I have to do is dial 8772072276.

You can also email me. That is easy. Just send an email to info at carm.org. CARM.O-R-G and put in the subject line radio comment or radio question. one of those so we can get to you.

Kinda. You know. We had nobody waiting right now, so that's good.

Well, actually we prefer to have somebody waiting right now, so it's not that good. Um Let's see.

So, no radio for me Thursday, Friday, and Monday. I will be out. Town, I am going to my 50-year high school reunion in Southern California.

So I'll be there and And there you go.

So no no uh no r live radio Thursday, Friday and uh and Monday.

So there you go there.

Now if you want to give me a call, it's easy. 877-207-2276. And We can get to some of those emails later if you guys are so inclined and don't give me a call. We can do that.

Now, I do want to let you know, folks, that we do stand here by your support. Please consider supporting us. We definitely need it. And just asking you to go to Carm and sign up for $10 a month. We don't need that much.

from each individual. We just need enough to cover what we need. Don't So we're having to tighten the belt. because that's just how it is with a lot of ministries right now.

So I'll just let you know.

Alright, why don't we? Get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Mada.

You got a question about Old Testament law. and its applications. Uh I know a lot of um discussions on rightly dividing the world always comes up. But it seems like you have some people pick and choose what they want to apply and not apply. Um Uh I was having a discussion with a cousin of mine and she seems set that Numbers is applicable to us now as far as generational curses and whatnot.

But I point out that that was written to Jews, that wasn't written. To Gentiles. And that was Old Testament. And there seems to be some confusion on her part on that. I was just kind of wanting to hear you break that down a little bit.

you know, some things may have like a spiritual application, but not a practical one. Yeah, you're right. We always want to look at what the scripture says according to what the scripture says.

Sometimes what people will do is take a verse where uh Joshua, I believe it is, choose this day who you will serve. And they say, see, that means you have libertarian free will. And they rip it out of the context of God of Moses speaking to the covenant people of Israel in their rebellion. And so people will frequently take something, misapply it. There is a phrase, variations of of a phrase, speak to the sons of Israel, or say to the sons of Israel.

that God addresses Israel specifically, and that's because of the covenant that He'd made with them to bring the Messiah through the people of Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, out of Genesis twelve.

So, of course, g uh they wrecked the um rejected the Messiah. And we the Gentiles regraphed him.

Alright, so uh When people get to Old Testament laws, There are Actual divisions, and I've got an article on this on Carm someplace where it says, say to the sons of Israel, or speak to the sons of Israel. And I go through and I show it in a table things that are said only for Israel and things that are said for all nations. And So we have to in the the particulars that she is talking about, in order to give a good, competent answer, we would have to go to the context and see is he speaking universally, God speaking universally, or is he speaking covenantally to Israel? Like, you know, for example, you shall not mix the threads or things like that.

Well, that's definitely for Israel.

So Way to find out the context of it and then see, like you said, if there's a spiritual application. And we want to be careful about just saying there's a verse in the Bible, therefore it belongs to us.

So when God said to Adam, don't eat of the tree.

Well, see, we're not supposed to eat of trees anymore. We can't have any fruit of trees. That's good you said they had 'em. And people, what? That's not what it is.

You know, it took it out of the context.

So it does happen. You're on the right track, though, man. Carefully.

Okay, um d do I have time to add a little context or would you just leave it tomorrow? Sure, go for it.

Well, is in particular numbers fourteen. especially verse eighteen, using that as a proof text for continual generational sin and I know I've You and I have discussed this before, and you gave a great answer, which I wholeheartedly agree with, but When I read numbers I'm assuming that's addressed you know to the ancient Israelites and also just in the very beginning of the chapter, just to get context, it it's specifically mentioning, you know, the congregation and all the children of Israel. and then it goes down from Aaron. talking about Mosaic times. how are people still trying to connect all of that with current times because if Jesus was nailed to the cross As soon as the curses were there as well.

Yes, now. There is this issue of covenant, and covenant has uh stipulations and rewards for keeping them and punishments for breaking them.

So, if we were to go to Numbers 14:18, and we were to recognize that God is speaking covenantally to Israel, it says, The Lord is slow to anger, abundant in loving kindness, forgiveness. iniquity and transgressions. But he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.

So, this is spoken of in Exodus 20 also. And uh Here it is.

So we're going to get into a little bit of this is it becomes more difficult to exegete certain things.

So In Exodus 20, verse 5, this is the Ten Commandments: You shall not worship them or serve them. I, the Lord, your God, jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children of the third and fourth generation.

So he says the same thing, third and fourth generation, in both Exodus 20, verse 5 and Numbers 14, 18.

So now the thing is Is the we can say is numbers 14 18 for all people I think there's a context in which it is, particularly since we understand that in Exodus 20. Nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament, and the one that is not is the Sabbath. that issue of Not serving false gods like the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do, and the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and the judgment comes upon them and their children.

So That is certainly there, and still extant.

So God will punish the guilty, whether you're in the covenant or out of the covenant. And So, I would say, even though certain things are principally addressed to the Jews, they can be spiritually true for everybody.

So, if God says to the Jews, you shall not. Murder. And you'll be judged. but that applies to everybody. And even though the Ten Commandments are covenant documents between God and Israel.

And that's we know this because I mean the application is now because the the uh The The Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament, validated, except for that one. of the sabbath, I said. Any don't know if that helps any, 'cause it's it's not an easy one to get in through. But I think that actually helps a lot. It just shows we we have to pay attention to the the nuance and detail when you really examine the text and not Not just the whole blanket.

statements out there and Otherwise, we'll move into stoning and and You know, death penalty for not keeping the Sabbath, and they always avoid those parts, the people that like. going back into the Old Testament. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes the atheists are the ones who say, Oh, he wants to stone people and stuff like that.

And then I say, No, that was under a theocratic system, we're not under that anymore. Uh etc. But yeah, so you always ask good questions, man. You got good questions.

So keep it open. Appreciate the answers. God bless, brother. All right, God bless you, Miss. Goodbye.

All right.

Well, that was Jermaine from California. Just want to give a shout out to Jamal, who calls in every now and then. Hey, man, thanks for the little thing, man. I got it. North Carolina thing.

Really appreciate it. Don't know if he's listening. If he is, I know he's smiling. Let's get to Dave from North Carolina. Dave, welcome.

You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Thank you for taking my call. How are you this evening? All hanging in there.

You know, just hanging in there. What do you got, buddy? Um Question.

Sometimes you'll see a church or even possibly a denomination be wrong about a particular subject in scripture. but it's not intentional. And sometimes you hear it be said, well, That's okay, it's not what they're wrong about, it's not a salvational issue.

So it's not heretical. It's it's not it's not uh I I guess It is It's not foundationally will cost you your salvation. They issue they're wrong about. What do you think about that? Yeah, there are things we call audiophora.

Adiophora would be um The non-essentials of the Christian faith. The essentials are such things as the deity of Christ. The Trinity, Jesus resurrection, justification by faith alone through Christ alone. He's the only way to the Father, things like that. And so if you deny any of those kinds of things, you're lost.

So, Audiophora deals with pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture. You can believe in either one, and it's fine. annihilationism, for example. You can believe in annihilationism and still be a Christian. Though I I consider annihilationism to be a uh a minor heresy in the sense it doesn't condemn you.

There are different degrees of heresy and errors that we are allowed to hold to.

So we can have that now. As far as based on bad translations, that can certainly happen. That's why I don't use the King James. That's why I don't use the King James. Because it his translations are good.

for then, but we have better translations now, and so I want something more accurate.

So, okay. Yeah, I appreciate that answer. I didn't present this to your to your uh person taking the calls for you.

So you kind of I thought of it as we were speaking. It's a totally different subject. Is that okay? Sure. I witnessed others.

It's it's important to And oh. In addition to Yeah. Publicly, if you if Jesus said, If you deny me to demand, I'll deny you before the Father. Is publicly I wear my faith on my sleeve and I try to reach out to others. But one question I got in doing that and I didn't have a good answer for Was the Holoc and How how could God if if there's a God One, how could he allow that?

And two, if he is God and he couldn't allow it, is he just in that? Or why wouldn't he stop it? And I didn't have a good answer for it.

Okay, he chose not to ch stop it. Uh and we don't know exactly why.

However, there is something worth looking at. And I'm not going to say this is the answer, but it's a consideration. In Matthew 27, 25, I'm going to get to that in a second. This is the context of Jesus before Pilate. and the Rob us is set free.

And Pilate says But Jesus didn't do anything. He says, I'm innocent of this man's blood. Verse 25, and the people said, His blood shall be on us and on our children. And then he released Barabbas.

Now, Bar Abbas means son of the father, and he was a murderer from the beginning, etc., so he's a murderer.

So a murderer was set free, and the innocent was condemned in his place. And this is what the Jews did.

Now, so here's a question. Just so you know, I'm proud. Israel. Uh We'll get back. break we gotta break and then we'll finish this up uh and about this possibility of federal headship representation.

presentation here. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877. 2072276.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Okay, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy.

877-207-2276A from North Carolina. Are you still there? Yes, I am. All right.

So, one of the things I want to bring up, a lot of people don't bring up when they're discussing the issue of why Israel is allowed to be punished and dealt with and the Holocaust and things like that. Incidentally, more uh Non-Jews were killed in uh by the Russians and stuff in in in um World War II, but that's another topic.

So um His blood shall be on us and our children. It could be that this is the ramification of what that. Statement is that the Jews said, Let it let our children be cursed. And because of federal headship where the male represents the descendants, we could make the case that this is what. Is is occurring.

Yeah. That's one possibility. The other one is that God wanted Israel to come back to the land. Because it's the covenant land, and God used this great persecution to move a great many people. And how God works often is.

correspondingly in the real world. In order to have an incredible movement, there often must be an incredible event. Small movements require small events. Incredible ones take more time. And so Israel was brought back into the nation, into the land.

May 14, 1948, it became a nation again. And you know, I've been to Israel uh twice and uh it's like coming home. It's the weirdest feeling that you get there. Um So I think that's part of it, and then to fulfill biblical prophecy that Jesus will come back. Touchdown the Mount of Olives, and Israel will be converted to Christianity, etc.

So I think those are some of the things that. A relative. Yeah. Okay. Definitely plausible answers and congruent with scripture.

I appreciate that. Um I listen to you and I would say 98% of the time I agree with you. 2% of the time I don't. I'll ruminate on what you said, and I think, and then I go back and look it up.

So you've helped me tremendously in my growth as a Christian.

Well, praise God. And, you know, I'm also glad that you don't agree with me on everything. Because if you did, it basically would mean one of us isn't thinking very well.

So, we're all going to be corrected when we get to heaven. And I mean this when I say this. People don't think I'm I'm serious sometimes, but I've always had this attitude. I've always known that I could teach people. I've always known that.

But I've also always believed that I don't have all the answers and people sometimes show me things. That I didn't think of, I wasn't aware of. And I'm always grateful for that.

So that 2% Maybe you're the one who's right in that. And if you find some good evidence and stuff in scripture, let me know. I'm always open to being corrected.

Okay. Okay, before Before I conclude, I want to thank you for taking that question. I didn't present it to the screener. I know that's not normally the way you like to do things, so I appreciate your field in the question. I really do.

And I'll keep listening and uh I heard you say about your 50-year high school reunion. You have an abundance of energy, and I just praise God you can keep it up and doing what you're doing for.

Well, I appreciate it, but I will tell you, it does get fatiguing, particularly lately. There's so much on my plate now, an incredible amount of stuff I have to do and worry about. and you know be 69 at the end of the year.

So I'm I'm pushing it. And uh Yeah. We don't have enough. Two. enough funds to do the things that all the things that need to be done.

So I have to take up a a great deal of of stuff to do. And just pray so I can still have some energy to keep going because it's, you know, it's exhausting. It's exhausting, so I'll keep you and your ministry and my prayers, and thank you so much for taking my call. Hey, no problem. All right, thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you. All right.

Hey, we have nobody waiting right now. If you want to give me a call, you can. 877-207-2276. And let's see.

Someone says that there's a pastor who wants to call me sometime. who said I'm wrong about the word fire Which is poor in Greek. He says it match wrong about people who reject Jesus. Uh oh, okay. I would love to to see to see what that is.

So I know they're hearing me well, maybe like 15 seconds later. in the chat room there in um Rumble.

So, is the pastor an annihilationist? That's what I would be. Curious to know, and what am I wrong about? with fire. Maybe I'm wrong about some stuff.

All right.

Let's see.

Okay, let's see. I don't know if I read this one before. I'm just going to get some of the emails that we've gotten. I attend a Calvary Chapel, have a question about normative authority. How was the church to adjudicate school to be problems that would arise in the future after the time of the apostles, if not by church councils?

by the elders in the church, the elders who ruled well.

So Let me show you. This is out of 1 Timothy 3. And it says in there, an overseer, that's episcopas, a bishop, must be above reproach, husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, etc., etc. he must manage his own household well, and uh not a a new convert. And so he has a good reputation outside the house and will not fall into reproach.

All right, now, when we get to Titus. the same kind of language is referred to to uh the elder. And it says in verse five, he says, appoint elders in every city, husband of one wife, children who believe, etcetera, for the overseer, and then he calls it the overseer. He calls he's put he's equating it with the elder.

Alright. There must be above reproach uh God's uh not self-willed, not quick-tempered, etcetera.

So it says you must be hospitable. Loving what is good, holding fast to the word of truth. And it says, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers, deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they ought not for the sake of sordid gain. And he goes on.

It says, reprove them.

Alright, so where does the authority rest? In the elders. In that church, right there.

So that's how we adjudicate problems in the church.

So if there's an individual in the church who is in abject sin and will not repent, The elders have the obligation at that point to excommunicate that person, to bar the table from that person.

so that they cannot then participate in the communion supper. And the church needs to know they're under discipline. And they also need to know that they need to and desire to work with this person to bring him back into fellowship. for for it to be a a loving thing and a good thing.

So that's it. That's how they would do that.

Some will say he goes on the email.

Some will say that counsels are not binding on us because they're not God-breathed, the scriptures are, and so are capable of erring.

So the councils are not, but the elders are.

So the elders in our local church Have that authority because the Bible says they are in that place of authority out of 1 Timothy 5:17, the elders who rule well.

So there is inherently within the eldership an authority that goes along with that job.

So, if I was attending a church and the elders came to me and said, Man, we've got a problem with something you're saying or doing. I would listen to them. And if they had a good point and they said, we don't want you to say such and such. you know, I'm going to listen to that. And stuff like that.

Okay, so we have nobody waiting. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207. Two, two, seven, six. I'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show, Bottom of the Hour. I hope you want to give me a call. And if you do, the number is 877-20722-76. Cody from Texas.

Cody, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, man. In regards to I was you just got me thinking with the last question in regards to elders. Mm-hmm.

Let me ask you this: Is it a biblical church if they do not have a plurality of elders, like biblically qualified elder status? Yeah. Well, it depends on the situation. You see, so Let me preface it beforehand, if you don't mind. Sure.

Because so many churches have a single pastor model. Right, and then they have beacons, which are just people that are willing to serve, not necessarily. You know, elder qualified, things like that, to be able to teach, step in, and all that kind of stuff. Like, so is it a biblical church if it's just a single pastor model? Because, in my experience, it's created a lot of hirelings.

People that are scared to say certain things. We took it hands up. causing their job.

Well, um What we need to do is just look at the scriptures first and then work from there outward.

So, normatively, Men were married when they were pastors and elders back then, because they just were.

So Uh They would uh They would be involved in the church, and there were all kinds of men who became Christians and who would also serve in the church.

Now if you have a A pastor, a small church, let's say there's fifteen or twenty people. and it's newly formed. And let's just say that he's qualified as a pastor, and there aren't any men in the group there. who are elder material as of as of as of that time. Then can he still be a pastor and is a legitimate church without?

more than one elder. And the answer in that case would be: well, yes. What he should be doing is working to raise up elders in the church. As he can, and it's something that takes time.

So, is it biblical to have one pastor as the sole elder in a church? In that sense, yes. If you have a member of a thousand church a thousand-member church, then out of there, I'm sure there are going to be qualified individual men who can become elders. And then they should be sought out and worked in eventually to have a normatively proper church.

So uh In that context, there's that.

Now you're talking about other issues as well. Uh you know, who acquire that position. Right.

Well, I mean, but that that can be active. I think that's one of the reasons God established elder plurality in churches. There's accountability.

So that you don't create hiring. Right, we don't want that. We don't want that.

Okay. A church. I've known of a church, I forgot where. Where there was No elders, just one elder, because a pastor by definition is an elder. And that there was no other elders because there weren't any that were quite qualified as being elders.

And so the pastor was going to work on uh Well, work on developing eldership out of the congregation. And that's fine. He knows that that needs to be done and was ready to do that.

So Normatively, w it should be their case, but we can't say it's proper or improper in every sit situation. 'Kay. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you because in regards to the situations you presented, but like it seems like There are way too many cases of several hundred member like in between, several hundred member churches. That That's you know, the pastors look at as the It seems a lot of men advocate responsibility as in the congregation at times because the pastor is the head guy. like nobody's looking to take initiative to be trained up what a pastor is afraid of losing the job that provides for his family.

In a in a case that That could happen. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, I I've lost my pastorate. at a critical time in my life. over the issue of the charismatic gifts.

And uh, and coincidentally, in that church, it was a church plant, and I was called to be the pastor. There were no elders in the church because it was a church plant, and through the process, you'd raise up people, they had to be confirmed, etc., etc., and uh, and the like so, um. Yeah, I forgot about that actually. My own situation is an example of it. But uh So it can happen, but normally it's supposed to have plurality of elders.

Okay. Okay, another question. Is it a biblical church if they do not practice church discipline, and what does that look like?

Well, normally speaking, they're supposed to practice church discipline. And what does it look like?

Well, in Matthew 18, 15, it goes on: if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private. And if he doesn't listen to you, go with others. If he doesn't listen, take it to the church.

So. The the model of discipline is something that needs to be administered when necessary.

So, if you have 10 people in a church, and that's a legitimate size for a church, and one pastor who's teaching. I've known of several congregations like that, and that's fine.

Well, they're all good people, and no discipline is necessary, no discipline is needed. And so there's no discipline that's occurring.

Well, that is a biblical event. Yeah, it is.

So there's no need. But if one of those people had started doing something really bad, like sexual immorality, and it came to light of the pastor, any decent pastor would say, We can't do have this, and eventually would have to discipline that person if that person was unrepentant. Yes, okay. Yeah, I mean, I would line up as Reformed Baptist, but growing up in a Southern Baptist background, it's. It seems like it's a lot of uh single passers that Are afraid of administering church discipline because so many people are allowed to join.

their typical First Baptist church and in the cell. without So you know, as a social club. More or less. Right, it does happen. And so they're not.

properly Discipled even about the differences in Roman Catholicism and things like that. because I even told the basics. Even though the pastor pastor can preach, expositionally And correctly Um Some reason it doesn't filter down because people want that status of just being. Like if you try to remove people from the roles. like the membership roles.

even though they hadn't been in a couple of years, they will flip out.

Well, if you call them talking about that, just check in to see if you're still a membership. You know, a member. There are different situations and different stuff and different motives and different conditions. I learned a long time ago not to try and give a blanket statement for everybody in situations like that.

So Yes, there are injustices, there are inequities, there's sinners involved, and things aren't always right. But I can only give the normative requirement of scripture and how it's supposed to work, and then the particulars have to be. met it out uh accordingly. what the scripture says. What?

That would just be. Yeah, of course. But I but I I think it's a general rule of thumb if the church doesn't practice church discipline. on members who are doing things that everybody knows. outside of that deal that that church actually doesn't love the person enough to go after them and correct them.

Yeah, in that context. Known sin that's unrepentant, and the the eldership does not do anything about it, that's a problem. Then they're not qualified as an eldership at that point, they're disqualified. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Thanks, Matt. I didn't know if you had talked about it, I talked to you last week on Rumble or whatever. But I didn't know if you had mentioned your own personal Situation with being uh swatted and stuff like that in regards to what we're dealing with and the culture. Maybe you told me to remind you to bring that up.

Okay. Yeah, I'll talk about it then. I'll we got nobody waiting, I'll talk about some of the persecutions I've undergone. Sure. Okay.

Okay. And I'll get I'll get off the list then. God bless. All right, sounds good. Yeah, only because he brought it up, wasn't even in my mind.

But yeah, I have faced various forms of persecution. I can tell you all kinds of stories. And I'll just shoot around the bush a little bit and just remember some of the things. And maybe, if the break's coming up, maybe I can tell you a few more. Few more.

I got some stories. Oh, man.

Some of them you won't believe. In fact, maybe I'll just tell stories for the rest of the show after the break because. I got some stories that are that people like, are you serious? I go, Yep. But I remember once I was preaching in a Bible study.

I was asked to preach in a church or teach a study on how to witness to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and the cults. And so, um I was in there and for three, four weeks, giving them information and stuff. And then I mentioned one of the additional ways to this at a Baptist Church, incidentally. One of the additional ways to witness to them is to bring up the idea of predestination because all false religions deny God's predestination. And it was just a point, you know, and we could talk about it and how God is a sovereign king, because in cults God's not the sovereign king.

He's like them or exalted from them, whatever, and not that sovereign. And so let me just say that uh that uh he was bad. It was bad. I had to pack my stuff up and get out fast. They were so angry with me.

Uh When I get back, I'll type at the time where I was backing up with my hands in a defense martial arts defense position. backing away from people. At a church. I'll tell you about that after the break, okay? If most of you read back after these messages, please stay.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hello, Red Emma. Welcome back to the show. Just to do it because the last call arrested, I'm going to tell some stories.

True stories, not making any of this stuff. I've got I'm looking at my list. I've got thirty-six. 36 stories. People have loved my stories and how I tell stories.

And so they said, You may watch it on videos and stuff like that. Maybe I will sometime, but I'm keeping a list of things. Anyway, a few years ago here in Idaho during the winter, it was snowing. I had found out that a particular church, local, a big church, had women elders. And I called up the church and I said, I'm just curious if we could get together and talk about that.

I'm just curious, you know, and why you why you guys do that. And they said, Oh, yeah, sure, no problem at all. I mean, you know, it's good. They're gonna defend uh their position. They're supposed to do that.

And And so I said, good. And then they we set up an appointment like in a couple of weeks and said, okay, fine. And then I get a they contacted me and said, we decided not to meet with you. And I'm on the phone with them, and I said, Wait a minute, why not? You said you would.

And I just. you know, I want to go for scripture with you, you know, and uh They said no, we're not going to do that. I said, okay.

So I went to the church and talked to somebody. And I said, How can you want to meet with me? And you guys said you would. No, we decided not to meet with you, we're not going to do that, so no, thanks. I said, but you said you would.

That was your word. And now, and this is on an important issue about women elders and what the Bible says about it. And I said, this is a serious thing. And said, we're not interested in talking to you, so goodbye.

So what I decided to do is write up some literature. And I would pass it out in front of the church. I went to them, I went to the elders. They had wanted nothing to do with actually giving an answer. When they said they would meet me, they broke their word.

Then they wouldn't talk, And then I said, Okay, well, I'm just going to go to the body of Christ. That's what I'm going to do. I wrote up some literature and passed it out in a church service. out in front of the the church as it came in. As the people started coming in, it was snowing.

I had 200 people helping me, and I was passing out the literature. I wasn't causing any problems. I wasn't I wasn't yelling. I wasn't blocking traffic, whether it was pedestrian, which I don't know if everybody was walking in because it was snowing. Not very heavy, but you know, it was cold.

They had a big jacket on, a beanie, and gloves, and things like that. And so I'm out there for 40 minutes or so, 45 minutes. And people are taking the literature and uh y you know, you know it's getting to the eldership. And uh next thing you know, the police arrive. The police, they called the cops on me.

This church called the cops on me. a Christian church. Who did not if they gave me their word they would meet, let your yes be yes, your no be no they broke their word. And I went down to meet with them just to check. They refused to meet.

They would not submit to the issue of the scriptures what it says. I went to the church and they called the police on me. Nothing happened, but the police came and said, We got reports, blah, blah, blah. Says, Yeah, we're just sitting out here on the sidewalk. We're not blocking any traffic.

And they said, Okay, good. The whole bit, and the cops left.

So that church called the cops on me.

Now that's not a big deal. But you know what you'd think a Christian church like that would do? For real? They would have kept their word for one thing. It's a big church here in the area too.

You think they would have kept their word? You think they would have just had a discussion? I said, Well, why are you doing this? And the Bible says this and that. I mean,.

You know, uh Why? You know, they wouldn't didn't want to do that. And why would they call the cops? Why didn't they come out with some hot coffee? Why didn't they love their enemies, so to speak?

Why did they Send the cops. Oh, I was disappointed in them.

So I was driving home and I realized, wait a minute, there's a church really close to me.

Now, that church has since gone, disbanded, I guess. I don't know, moved, whatever. And uh they had women pastors there, women elder. the wife of the pastor, And I'd emailed him. I said, I'm just curious, maybe we could talk sometime while you do that.

And you know, the Bible says husband of one wife, how does an elder how does a woman do that? And anyway, I wasn't mean. I wasn't threatening, I just And I'm going to stop by because I just got a cops called on me. I'm going to stop by this church. And so I go into the church and happened to walk right in just as the service had ended.

just a minute or two or three before. And I walked on in. And people are milling around inside. And oh, okay, well, you know, they were friendly. Hey, how are you doing?

And I just walked in and. And um So the pastor comes up. He goes, Hey, how are you? Nice. He says, Oh, hey.

I said, Hey, you know, I. Trying to be very polite. I said, Yeah, I emailed you guys a couple of weeks ago about women pastors, elder stuff. and it was like a f a switch got flipped. All of a sudden, he became aggressive and negative.

He says, I'm not talking to you. You get out of here. And he raised his voice, and I'm like, oh my goodness. I happen to be physically up against a wall. And 15 feet to my left was the exit door, and there are people between me and the door, and this pastor is raising his voice at me.

Well, instantly, you know, I've been taking martial arts for a while, and you're always taught: pay attention to your surroundings. And I'm sitting there going, This instantly is a bad Situation, you know, and I just don't like being up against a wall, and this pastor's raising his voice, and when people's heads are turning now, and he's disgruntled at me. And I said, no, no, no. I just was just stopping by to ask if we could talk about it. It's a biblical issue.

And I thought maybe. He said, we're not talking. You get out of here. You need to get out right now. And people are.

Or turning their heads, and I and I'll tell you. When a mob mentality starts, it gets dangerous. And So, I don't know what kind of Christians they are. What you know, supposedly Trinitarians, all that, I know that much. I don't know if they're all good, I don't know what.

So I'm Walking to my left towards that door, and I said, Okay, all right, no problem. I'm leaving, I'm leaving. And I just made it to that door, right? I'm like, Okay, good.

So at least I'm not going to be cornered or up against the wall. And I go outside. And um this guy follows me. And he starts raising his voice at me. You need to get out of here.

You need this. You need that. And I turn around, and there's this congregation member, and he's about 15 feet from me. And There's a lot of people around the area, and I'm getting nervous now because I know how this can go. And the pastor had come out.

By that time. and he started yelling at me. And I'm thinking, this is really bad.

Now I'm outside, and people are now looking at the pastor who's yelling at me, and he's approaching me. And I'm backing up, and I put my hands up. I was taking Krav Magah, and if you know about Krav Maga, any of you put your hands up. Palms open, like you put your hands up left. Generally, I'm right-handed, so left hands out.

A few inches past my right hand, and it's just a defense mechanism. I don't want to, you know, don't want any problems. And yet, we can close our fists and we're ready to go right away. It's just a a style. Anyway.

So, I don't want any problems. And I stop and I raise my hands up and I go, look, I'm leaving. And I backed up in the in the There's a way you back up actually in martial arts. In a crop, you keep one foot on the ground all the time, very pl well planted. You drag your foot, you move, you drag your foot, you just get out of the way, but you have to be planted and ready.

So I'm doing that, right? They don't know that, but but I'm aware of it. And this guy is yelling at me, and the pastor says, I'm leaving, and I'm backing up, and it calmed down. And then the pastor turns around, he starts walking in, but I'm still, I'm still, you know, got my hands up and I'm backing up. And this guy, I put my hands down, that's right.

Then this guy lunged at me like about two feet of a lunge. You know, he's 10 feet away by now, and he lunged at me a couple of feet. And I put my hands back up. And as soon as I put my hands back up in the air, he yelled out. He hit me.

Oh no, he shoved me. That's what he said. He shoved me at what he said. Happened a few years ago. And the pastor turns around and yells out loud, Did you shove him?

And everybody's looking at me at this point, and I'm thinking, Oh my goodness. This is out of control. The pastor was horrible. And this guy, well, he did this. I said, no, I did not.

I said, I'm just backing up and get out of here. And he lied. I said, he flat out lied. I didn't touch him, I didn't do anything. I mean seriously, the guy he lied.

He actually lied. And the pastor came back down, and the guy started coming at me again. And to the pastor's credit, he stopped him, put his hand on his chest, and said, There'll be none of that right now. None of that here, that's what he said. And which was, you know, to his credit, okay, good.

And so I remember still to this day, to this minute, this happened 10 years ago, I remember looking, grabbing the door handle of my car.

Somebody say, you get good, I'm at my car, and I got in, I got out of there.

So uh True story. True story, okay, both of them. Just for asking why you allow pastors women to be elders. Why is it that people are so uppity about their heresies? You know, they it's a heresy, folks.

Women are not supposed to be pastors and elders, and that's what the Bible teaches. And and once again, after twenty years of radio, I'll offer this again. I'll fly out to your church and we'll have a public moderated debate, you know, opening statements, responses, moderated on does the Bible teach women could be pastors and elders. I've offered this I don't know how many times in 20 years over the radio, and not a single person, a single church has ever accepted it. Why?

Because they know I'm going straight to God's word, and I know what I'm saying from the God's Word, and they don't want that. And they're going to continue in their heresies. That's a heresy. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't have women pastors and elders, because the Bible says not to.

But you know, it doesn't mean they're not saved, doesn't mean they're not Christian, it just means they're not submitting to the Word of God in that area.

So there is, it's a true story.

Okay, I got more stories, but we're running out of time. And uh,. I mean, um Mobrating persecuted. And if you guys want, I'm going to whet your appetite for this one. If you want, I can tell you.

You got to but you gotta be request it. You gotta ask me to do it on the radio. Um I can tell you A story's true. about how some Satanist was trying to kill me. Another Satanist helped me.

How atheist group was trying to destroy the ministry and a twist of fate that you would go What? Are you serious? I just told the whole story a couple of days ago, three days ago, in a chat room. They asked me about this. I told him the story, and when I said it, each time I was saying something, the guy's going, Well, no way.

I said, But wait, there's more. And I kept, he goes, No way. Are you serious? I go, Yeah, but wait on this one. And then I told him the final thing.

He goes, Are you kidding? Are you serious? I said, yep, I'm serious. Really high voice there. I said, yep, it really was true.

He goes, are you? He goes, that's amazing.

So I got stuff like that.

So I'm trying to get you interested. If you want to hear me give the story, but that one I can't tell. in just a couple of minutes. That one takes a while. Persecuted.

But yeah, I was swatted also, and that's a whole nother story. I could tell that one more in depth just outside my house. years ago. We think an atheist is the one who did it. And um and I I was walking backwards in the dark, hands up in the air.

Um with I don't know, I think it was like fifteen guns pointed at me all at once. And I did everything they said when they said it. They just said, jump eject.

Okay, how many do you want? You know?

So I did everything they said. And that's a bit of a story, too. It takes like five minutes to tell everything about that. And then there's the stories of me being followed in cars, my wife being followed in cars. and people threatening to destroy us, kill us.

and sue us. And there's just some of the things. We had to go through as as uh as uh Christians here. At car. Hey folks, I am out of time.

May the Lord bless you, and by His grace, we're back on the air and Lord Welling. Talk to you tomorrow. We'll see you guys. Bless bye. Another program powered by the Truth Network.