Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Yeah. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carn.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. And you're busy listening next look live as always. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 8772-07-2276.

And if you want to email me, you can do that this lovely Friday. That's easy. Just send an email to info at carm.org. Info at carm.org, put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question or Matadoofus, something like that. It'll get through, and then we can get to them on the air when we get slow with the callers.

And speaking of callers and stuff, as you guys know, I'll be out, Lord Dwelling, in North Carolina, Kannapolis, next week, speaking at a conference. And we're going to have some guests on here, one now and some others later next week, talking about it. And let's get on with Laura. Laura, are you there? Hello.

I am. How are you? I'm fine. Hanging in there. All right.

All right. Just to talk to you. And I site, we've met before, I remember, at different conferences and stuff with George. I think we have. I'm not sure.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, yeah, at least uh some some online conferences we've definitely spoken together. Yeah, because you look familiar.

So, we're going to be doing this conference, and George asked, and I totally agree, it was a great idea. Have you guys on, do a little segment here and there on the radio building up to it, and we can talk about the stuff you want to talk about. And tell us what you're going to be doing at the conference. Let's just start with that. Or introduce yourself first: who you are and your experience and things like that.

We'll take it from there. Go ahead.

Okay. Sure. My name is Laura Zeifer-Powell. I am a follower of Jesus and a Christian apologist. I speak at conferences and teach and write and disciple young women.

And I seek to live out the gospel every day, and all that I do. I love sharing the reasons for the hope that we have, of course, as an apologist with anyone who's interested. And I think I have a pretty unique background with respect to Islam. I actually never really set out to. become An expert in Islam or to specialize in Islam, but I kind of took on one.

I guess a ta assignment you might say at a time. And next thing I knew, it had been 20 years of gaining experience and everything on Islam and ministry to Muslims.

So it all kind of started with when I was working with Engineering Ministries International, and I was asked to train up a team that was preparing to launch. to somewhere in the Middle East, we didn't really know where.

So I spent some time in some different Middle Eastern countries and started reading the Quran, took a graduate level course on Islam and Uh just I would just meet with the team and share what I was learning, and they would share what they were learning. And we just kind of did it all together. And a year or so later, the team launched, and I thought, okay, so. What's my next topic? What's my next assignment?

But that's not exactly the way it went. I was then. asked to come to Afghanistan. And then to Greece, where Muslim refugees were crossing over from Turkey, fleeing from Uh Iraq and Syria and Afghanistan. And then I ministered in Clarkston, Georgia, in the refugee community to Muslims there for about five years.

and I was asked to join Women in Apologetics as their Islam Ministry specialist. And so each I saw each of these as kind of one just kind of one isolated Uh assignment, like I said. Yeah, that's It's turned out to be a a twenty year process. Oh, wow.

Okay, so you said you've been to the Middle East. I've been to Turkey and Israel and on Bible tours, but never really got to got to meet the people really and talk to them very much. I did find out that or I did experience the Muslims were nice, very very at least in Turkey, they were very hospitable. Enjoyed the time there.

So you got me kind of curious. Afghanistan, you were there. How long were you there for? What was going on there? I was there for about six weeks and Uh I was Part of a team that was asked to do some design work, a team of engineers.

But I was asked to come as p with that team, but for a bit of a different role. I was told primarily that the the expat women who from you know western countries from all over the world really A lot of them were experiencing quite a bit of trauma and uh needed someone to talk to and share with and kind of debrief with and So that was the initial and main objective. But I ended up having a lot of opportunities to minister to Afghan women as well. And It was really interesting. It's not surprising to me at all that you said that your experience, although Turkey is quite different from Afghanistan.

But nonetheless, the fact that your experience in a Muslim country as a man was was was really good and and you experienced a lot of hus Hospitality. That was the experience of the men on my team, even in Afghanistan. They would come back from each day talking about how incredibly hospitable. The men were and how much fun they had sitting around the campfires, sharing adventurous stories and playing on military equipment and just having a blast together. My experience as a woman with an incredible keep in mind, there's an incredible separation between men and women.

I wasn't going where the men were going. I wasn't talking to the people the men were talking to. I was spending all of my time with women. in a different place. And my experience was incredibly different.

The. um the women and girls I spent time with Word. Um I mean just severely traumatized. Many of them had been sold into marriage at nine years old, married off to 50-something-year-old men when they were nine. And um with that those marriages consummated right away at nine years old.

They were one of many wives.

Now, their husbands who were in their 60s or whatever had taken younger wives who they liked better. uh they were they were very distrustful of um of each other. Women are the enemies of each other because, you know, a husband can almost always take on another younger wife and um And there was a ton of jealousy and they would you know they would um just all sorts of awful awful stuff, like trying to poison each other and things like that. That so yeah, it was just it was a real it was kind of uh traumatic, I would say. Uh really a sad experience from the women's perspective.

And uh, but I'll I'll um maybe I'll do we have time for a quick story that uh sure tell you what's pretty cool. We're gonna have a break in three minutes, but uh you know, I want you to stay on. This is really interesting. I'm very interested in the issue of uh the dynamics with the women, because that is really something I really would not have thought of. You really got me intrigued.

But go ahead, yeah, just go ahead and talk about that.

Okay. Yeah, so I was one of the things I did was I was teaching English at a school for young girls in Afghanistan. And these girls, um, as young as five years old, were uh walking barefoot. Through the snow in the winter to get to class, just to have an opportunity to receive some sort of minimal education. They were risking their lives, it was not uncommon.

for uh schools that uh the the There weren't very many of them, but schools that would educate girls. would be attacked. And I loved you know, I loved being there with them and teaching the children. Uh they were so excited to be there and so grateful they were having a chance to, you know, that their mothers had never had. under the Taliban.

This was when the U. S. military was there. And so things Where it was two thousand nine and ten, things were relatively peaceful. Uh but um I probably my favorite times were uh Uh when I got to spend time talking to the The young female teacher who I was helping, and to my translator who was there with us all the time.

So these were both like 19-year-old girls. And we would talk about our favorite holidays, our spiritual beliefs, what we wanted to do with our lives. um how difficult life is for women in Afghanistan and everything else. Uh uh these girls, you know, only teenagers and yet many of their friends had been killed already. They showed me photo albums of all their friends who had been killed, usually by their own father or their own brothers.

Uh And for like honor killings and things like that. But one day it was really beautiful outside, and there had been this heavy snow the day before. A white blanket of snow covered the grass and tapped the mountains in the distance. The sun was shining, the skies were blue, it was just gorgeous. And we have been spending our days in this tiny little room, like the size of a walk-in closet in the U.S.

It had one window that was covered by blinds. And during our lunch break, the teacher I was working with peeked out through the blinds, and she noticed it was really gorgeous outside. She asked me, she said, Ms. Laura, will you do me a huge favor? And she looked almost embarrassed to ask.

Um Of course, I had been to a bunch of countries by that time, and so I was a bit skeptical of favors. I had been asked, you know, will you do me the favor of marrying me or getting me an American passport? I'd even been asked to hand deliver a screenplay to Steven Spielberg, because, of course, if I'm American, I must know Steven.

So I said to her, well, why don't you tell me what the favor is, and I'll see what I can do. And I couldn't believe it when this huge favor that she wanted was just to go for a short walk outside. And I told her, Absolutely, yeah, let's do it. And she seems a bit uh she seems a bit surprised. Um But she was like, oh, this is okay, great, okay, okay.

And she was all excited.

So we walked around the building and we had a little snowball fight and it was really sweet and fun. And she came up and grabbed my arm and she said, this is the best day of my whole life. Thank you so much, Ms. Laura. I will never forget this.

Thank you, thank you. And she was just on the verge of tears and so happy. And I was I so I asked her, Aren't you able to come outside on nice days when I'm not here? And she said, No, of course not, because you know, the boys. And I knew what she meant and it was well, it was You know, obviously deeply honoring that I was providing the best day of her life.

It was also incredibly sad to me that. That she cannot go outside. She can't even go outside by herself. And I experienced later in that trip what happens when you go outside by yourself for even a few seconds as a female. It was.

Just unwise, I'll say, to put it briefly. But you know, as I reflected, I'd. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Yes, I just I reflected a lot on that and thought, what is the difference? Like these men on my team are willing to give their lives for me. My dad has always been I know, I've never had a doubt that my dad is willing to give his life for me. And what is you know, and as I reflected on this, I realized Jesus makes all the difference. And he is the reason that so many of the men in my life are so amazing and kind and loving to women and children and to the vulnerable.

Jesus is the reason the men in my life are warriors for truth and goodness and beauty. Jesus is the reason for all that is good and excellent and praiseworthy. And so he's the one who can transform lives. We have a break and just stay tuned because this is really good stuff. All right, please stay tuned.

And we write back, folks, after these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. We are talking with Laura.

Man, she's really got me hooked. On some of the stories and some of the experiences that she has had in Afghanistan. Laura, are you still there? But uh you got really soft just now.

Well, there you go. Is that better? There we go. All right. Yeah.

Perfect.

So, um All right, so these these women uh just they're just punished. Uh it's just it's brutal. It rem reminds me of the book Infidel by uh that woman, uh the Somali woman. I don't know if you've read it or not. Uh Yes, yes, I have.

Yeah, what's her name again? I'm looking up for I have a nice name. I can't think of her name. Ayan Hirsi Ali. Yes.

Oh, yes, that's it. Yes. Not the easiest name to remember. No, it's not it. Look it up.

And I remember reading the book and she was talking about the women who were uh they were just beaten in the you could hear them screaming at night and you knew with the sound of their voices and their bruises were hidden by what they would wear when they were allowed to go out with her. You know, with the males stuff. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. Exactly.

Yeah. And she has actually become a Christian. I don't know who you have. Really? No, I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah. She had become an atheist and she was um uh yeah, very outspoken as an atheist and good friends with uh uh uh Christopher uh no, Hitchens, uh not Christopher Hitchens, uh Dawkins. Dawkins. I always forget his first name. Richard Dawkins.

But yes, she has become a Christian, so that's really, really exciting. I love that. But yeah, it just um It really struck me just that everyone needs to know the truth, that Jesus is the one who can transform. Not only individual lives, which is awesome, also entire families, though, and even in entire cultures.

So You know, a lot of the things, a lot of the behaviors that I've seen throughout the Muslim world. are unacceptable in our culture primarily due to the Judeo-Christian influence. And so everyone needs to know the truth. Everyone needs to know the reason for the hope that we have. both for you know for this life and obviously for eternity eternity is is Is a long time, right?

So, uh, so whatever the cost, you know, I And have Said to myself since then, whatever the cost, I have, you know, I have to tell them. And so that's why I participate in conferences like the one that you and I are speaking at pretty soon. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting you and other guys. I've talked to them before and some of the conferences with George.

George is such a great guy. He really is. He is wonderful, isn't he? He really is. To me, he's one of the most humble guys I know.

And I'm serious. He really is. Oh, absolutely. Without a doubt. Without a doubt.

He is such a blessing, and he has had such a huge. impact primarily in Uh equipping and platforming others. And so most people don't know his name, but uh most people know the names of uh of some of the people he um Equipped and raised up and gave opportunities to. Yeah. Yeah, you guys, all of you speakers, you know a lot more about Islam than I do, but I can hold my own.

But boy, you guys know a lot. And so I always feel bad when George invites me to go speak one of the conferences. Like, George, I've, you know, you've forgotten more since lunch today than I've ever learned about Islam. And, but he's so gracious. You know, I do Christian theology and apologetics, and so, but he's great.

All right. So I got a couple questions here for you. One is, well, more than one. Sure. We've got a break.

Bottom of the hour, we'll get the regular callers, but may we have some callers? I don't know if you have any callers. We have any questions for you. Nope, nope. And no.

Okay. So. How many people get a hold of you? Uh how can people get a hold of you? If any Yeah.

Well, let's see. My website is laurazpowell.org.

So that's L-A-U-R-A-R- P as in Uh papa. Owel dot org. And there's a contact page. for to email me on that website. Um I also actually have a blog, I mean, sorry, a podcast called The Knight in Rose Show.

It's K-N-I-G-H-T, as in Knight in Shining Armor, with my co-host, Wintry Knight. We talk about all sorts of topics related to Christian worldview. We both have a strong background in public policy. And we talk we talk about Policy from a Christian worldview lens, as well as traditional apologetics topics, evidence for An intelligent designer for the resurrection, the crucifixion, consciousness, all sorts of things like that. Whoa.

I mean, when you said consciousness, you just very rare that people discuss that as an apologetic issue. I'm impressed.

Okay, so I get a question. Did you feel safe in Afghanistan? And the other one is: tell us about Islamic women coming to Christ and your experience with that. But did you feel safe in Afghanistan this week? No, not particularly, no.

Um I Uh I'm you know, in the US I'm used to being pretty independent and pretty strong. And I have my concealed carry license and go to the shooting range to practice for make sure I'm above my skills and I'm I'm athletic. I do I've done CrossFit for years. I do martial arts. And so people don't tend to worry about me too much.

But I'm not the easiest target, you might say, but And and also, you know, we I don't go to too many dangerous places. I my lifestyle is pretty uh Uh yeah, it's uh just not that dangerous w in the US. But in Afghanistan, I had to lean very heavily on the men on my team, the men I was traveling with. To walk in front of me and behind me, to look out for me, to think about me. And I was completely covered.

I had very little peripheral vision. Uh um when we would we walked a lot of the places we went and uh Uh when i in the few occasions that we were together and um you know the roads had like heavy potholes deep deep potholes in them and there was there was uh one occasion when I stepped in one of these potholes because it had been raining. I couldn't tell it was a deep pothole. I thought it was just a normal part of the street. And uh ended up with um all sorts of feces and urine and everything else all over my my long skirt.

And the the place where we were staying with an American family was not very far away. You could almost see it from where we were. And so I was told to go back and change my clothes and and just that that the guys would be back later. They were just going to a local clinic to look at how things were done there so that when they did their design, they wouldn't design something just way out of the ordinary for the culture. And uh so you know, just heading back, uh like maybe an eighth of a mile to the house where we are staying.

as soon as I turned in the opposite direction from the team and they couldn't see me anymore because there was like this big wall in the median Okay, hold on, hold on. Good, good spot. You got another break, so you got to stay up afterwards. We got to hear what happens because I'm like, okay, what happened? I'm visualizing it.

So, folks, we'll be right back after these messages with Laura. And we'll. Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Alright everybody, welcome back to the show. We're gonna go back to Paula. I mean Paula.

Sorry. Laura, I would look at Laura Powell. I want to say, well, Laura Powell, in a second, I just want to let you know that she and I and others will be speaking at the Ministry to Muslims Conference in Cannapolis, North Carolina, which is just a little bit north of Charlotte. And we'll be doing that next weekend. If you want more information on that, all I have to do is go to Ministry to Muslims.

I saw 2-0, I mean, 2-0, not a number 2, but ministrytomuslims.com and check it out. All the information you need is right there. And please, you know, hopefully we'll see you there. All right, let's get back on with Laura. Are you still there?

Mm-hmm. I am, yes.

Okay, now we're in suspense. All right, you're walking.

So go ahead. Yeah, so as soon as I turned away from the group of men who continued walking Uh in one direction and I was walking in the other direction and there was th there was a a wall that separated us. Uh so that I couldn't see them, they couldn't see me. Uh men In their car, started rolling down their windows and and and driving over close to me and grabbing out the window, like trying to grab me. Uh and and yelling at me.

I didn't understand what they were saying. But you know when someone's not trying to help you or do you a favor.

So it was terrifying. It was absolutely terrifying. I ran As fast as I could, probably as fast as I've ever run in my life. And I'm a pretty fast runner, but I ran uh a All the way back to the house with cars, like men in their cars coming up to me, kind of trying to grab out the window. Until I got um Within sight of the guards who guarded the house where we were staying, and then the cars just kind of drove off and went away.

um and the guards let me in and I went in and and slammed the door and just started bawling, crying. I was so scared, I was shaking. And the and the family we were staying with uh helped me out and um uh everything. But Yeah, I think, you know, the the men felt t terrible, uh, of course, but they, you know, they they're Americans and they were used to like, why would a why would a strong athletic woman like not be able to walk an eighth of a mile back to the house. uh that's right there we can you know so um But yeah, it is not safe for women.

Of I knew a couple of women who actually were kidnapped in Afghanistan a few years before I was there. And actually, a friend of mine. Dr. Dilip Joseph was, he was part of our team, that team that I'm just, you know, when I was there. He actually was captured by the Taliban about a year or so later after that trip that he and I went on together.

and was rescued by Navy SEALs.

So even as a man, um It's not a safe place. And that was about as safe as Afghanistan had been since the nineteen seventies. Uh so uh it's it's it's a dangerous place for sure. You you need to know what everybody said when I was there, the Westerners, you know, would all say, or the you know, they would all say, don't come here unless unless you know that God is is leading you there because the pla this place will destroy anybody unless unless you know that that God has you here for this time. You know, when I went to Jerusalem seven years ago or so, there was an incident.

This was in Jerusalem, where a mom. A grandmother and a daughter, they were a little family, they were on their own going to a marketplace, and somebody approached them and asked how much to sell the daughter, the young girl to. Oh, wow.

She's like 16 years old. And it terrified them. That's a short version of it.

So, what we learned to do right away was: men were always to be with any groups of women. And we did that. And then, you know, last year when I went, a friend of mine, Dave, he was ex-Border Patrol, martial artist, a whole bit. And so, when we would go, but last trip, we went to Turkey, we went to Greece, and we went to Italy, even in the Western-style countries. We broke up.

We would put it this way: we'd make sure we were with the ladies. And guarding them. And he would watch just what had to be done. And so he and I were aware, but a lot of others weren't. But at any rate, Okay, look, I I gotta ask him You got me going here, okay?

This is good stuff. I love stories like that. I didn't, you know, and as brave that you were and doing God's work, and I'm glad that you're safe and you're back. But I am curious about Islamic women. Are they very receptive to the gospel?

That is a great question. You know, um, I was surprised That given all that they had been through, that they weren't just desperately hungry for the good news for truth. But E Uh most of my experiences have been that people women women do seem a lot more open to the gospel in the in Musl when they're in living in Muslim majority countries. versus in the US where things are a bit easier. And they, you know, and the the Can I have I guess.

You know, they get to keep their religion and and there's you know, there's no real cost. To Being a Muslim In the US, for a lot for most people, I would say. And yet, they have the opportunities, the freedom, the you know, the opportunities to to earn a good living and be safe and all of that. But in Muslim majority countries, they're a bit more intrigued and open to it, although there is a very, very high cost. And that's probably the main reason There wasn't more openness, but what I saw and heard a lot of was women.

having dreams and visions of Jesus and Then um Speaking out the truth. and becoming Christians that way.

So that actually is so I go out, I like Greg Cokel's phrase, I'm looking for the people who are looking for me. That's kind of what I'm doing. I want I share with everybody, but if people are just clearly, adamantly closed and do not want to know, you know, that's that's f fine, that's their decision. But, um I'm looking for the people who are open, who are looking for me, who want to know to invest the most time and risk and such into. You know, I have a f a friend who uh I don't really talk about him very much because I don't want him to get in trouble, but he's got fatwas against him.

Long story short, he knows what he's doing about Islam and speaks against it. He's working with the government translating. Long story short, anyway, he told me that he was listening to Al Jazeera. This is 10 years ago. And Al Jazeera in Arabic was saying that they've got to do something about the thousands of people On a weekly or monthly basis, they are converting to Christ in the Islamic countries because of visions and dreams.

Hmm. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. I hear about it all the time.

So, yeah, and usually the dream will come first, and then they'll seek out a believer and ask for the truth and read the word. Uh that's kind of the most common Um story I hear. Wow, I've also heard that the biggest underground Christian church in the Middle East is in Iran. I've heard that too. Yes, I've been hearing that a lot lately, too, right?

That's remarkable. Yeah. Yeah, the people of Iran are rejecting Islam en masse. They're just done with it. The people even people who have not become Christians, a lot of them are atheists now.

It isn't it you know, they have they may have to say publicly that they're Muslims, but the majority, I'm told, is not Muslim anymore. I wouldn't be surprised.

Okay, we've got about a minute left before this break, then we'll just get to callers and so no big deal for regular stuff. But what are you going to be speaking on at the conference next week? I will be speaking on Christ's finished work. The main focus will be the crucifixion, evidence for the crucifixion, because the Quran says Jesus was not killed or crucified.

So I'll present evidence for the crucifixion, which is abundant. We'll talk about what most Muslims believe happened to Jesus and how to have Conversations with them about those sorts of topics. Ah, good. I'll probably sit in here some of your classes. If I'm not teaching one over someplace, I'll be sitting listening.

You know, the last one I went to in Anaheim? Oh, it was great. You were there, I think, in Anaheim last year. It was fantastic. Actually, you know what?

Yeah, you know what? I ended up not going. I was hoping to go, but I had another commitment at a, I was speaking at another conference that I had committed to at the same time.

So I I did hear about it. But yeah, it's it's the yeah, the our strong tower conferences are always excellent. Yes. So I'd encourage anybody and everybody to check it out. In fact, right now, tickets are free of charge.

These are $50 tickets to excellent speakers and Right now, free of charge.

So, I'd encourage everybody to go to ministry to Muslims.com and get those tickets. All right, there's the music. Thanks a lot, Laura. Really appreciate it. You're awesome.

Thanks for the stories, and looking forward to meeting you next week. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right. God bless.

God bless. All right, that was good. I liked it.

So, hey, folks, we got callers waiting. We'll be right back. Get to those calls, and God bless me. Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. There we go. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy. But we have three people waiting, so let's just get to them first.

Longest waiting is Jermaine from North Carolina. Jermaine, welcome, buddy. You're on the air. I think it's Hey, Maddo, it's actually North California, but that's okay. Oh, because it's MC up there.

Yeah, I thought so. I'm like, no, that doesn't quite make sense.

Okay. What do you got, buddy? What's up, man? Yeah, just a fascinating conversation. I almost hated to ask the question, but.

Yeah, another time. I wanted to ask you about if you've ever heard of a guy. I think his name was uh Alpha Keith. It was Corey Mahler. Um he's he's kind of gotten a fan.

response, I guess, from people who think like him, but he basically had the premise that God cannot sanctify everybody right now. like salvation Yes, but sanctification, no. In particular, blacks and other minorities. He had a fascinating debate with James White. couple of months ago that washing.

it made me think of you just wishing that uh you kind of got a piece of 'em because His theology was way out there. Is there any justification? But what he's saying, that God cannot sanctify everyone in this lifetime. See, when we just logically speaking, When you say the word cannot, what sense cannot God do something? Cannot because he's limited himself, cannot because he's powerless to?

So I always always ask for clarifications and things like that. But the issue of sanctification, I don't see any limit in the capability of God being able to save and sanctify whoever he wants. He's not limited by skin color or age or IQ or location.

So It's interesting. Yeah, and I guess you'd have to really check him out to really get an appreciation of what he's. He's trying to send, but he's attempting to make a scriptural argument that Because you see some people in various states of disarray, and usually you pick the worst examples of. of what he's trying to to use as an example. Saying that, you know, Perhaps I say God just won't sanctify them, but I've seen the opposite of what he's speaking of.

it just makes no sense, you know, even attacking things like IQ and and genetics. It it just seems like a an attempt to justify some pretty racist beliefs. With scripture. But he's saying they could be saved, they just can't be sanctified. And What?

You know, you're born in the middle. How can he be? It doesn't make any sense. How can he be saved and also not sanctified? It's part of the salvation thing that God does with us.

He lives in us at our justification, salvation. Then he starts working to sanctify us.

So it makes no sense. You've got to send me some information on who this guy is. I tried looking his name up. I couldn't find anything.

So if you could send me his name or URL or something, I wouldn't mind checking him out. Yeah, actually, I think you should. And honestly, I truly pray that you're able to. I'm pretty sure he would love to engage in a debate with you. I think I know what would happen, but.

He's one of these people that I think some good, solid You know, spiritual wisdom would really do well to help other people because. I think the issue that people run into is they're They're saying they're Christian and they are, but they're not reading enough to dispute some of this nonsense. that is coming out of this guy's mouth and he's just well read enough to throw people off. I I don't think that would happen with A lot of folks who are just simply reading their Bibles, but you know, he he's, in my opinion, caused a lot of damage.

So but if anybody heard of him, then send me some information. Yeah, send me some information.

Okay, info at carm.org and um Heck, dude, while you do that, send me your phone number, and I'll give you mine. You know, we'll stay in contact and stuff like that. But uh I wanna I wanna uh I'm going to research this guy because. I I'm always int intrigued as well as appalled. By anybody who would say that there's racist based on skin color issues related to salvation and God's work.

To me, it's. It's fascinatingly stupid. To me, it is really. I want to hear about this because I can't believe people believe it, you know.

So dumb. It's like, tell me some more. I want to know.

So we take notes for a half hour. I'm not going to argue. I just want to know. And. Yeah, so Wow, yeah, send me the information, man.

I want to find out, okay? I sure will. And I'll be praying for the upcoming conference where you'll be seeking that. I think that's going to help a lot of people. Yeah, I hope so, man.

I know you're in Cali, but hey, start driving now. You'll get there. All right. I think I'll take a virtual plane chicken.

Okay, all right, man.

Sounds good, brother. All right, yeah, send me that info. I'm curious. Have a good week. You too, man.

God bless. Wow. Really, seriously, how to I mean just bewildered. I have encountered people and I've talked to them, and half the time I don't even do apologetics on them because. I'm just so Stupefied.

It's like, how do you? How do you believe that? Wow, it's amazing to me. Let's get to Brian from Texas. It's a long time waiting, Brian, 38 minutes, but welcome.

Thank you. Thank you, Sher, and thank you for what you do. I lean towards I'm not I go back and forth, but I lean towards a single predestination. But what I wanted to ask you was in Second Peter 3:9, where Uh the you know, Peter says that God is um is wants all to come to repentance.

Now a lot of times, people who do believe in free will and do not believe in they believe that predestination is basically for serving, they'll go to that verse and use it. And if someone did that, how would you respond to that? Yeah, I've talked on this verse and other verses at at at length. Um And we don't have a whole bunch of time here, so let me just give you some quick, quick and slick kind of responses. I asked people what do they mean, what do they think they think the word all means?

And they'll tell me varying things. And they're always going to say, well, that means every individual who ever lived. And I'll say, okay, so then in that case, would Jesus or God do anything in such a way so people would not be saved? And they said, Of course not. They always say that, of course not.

That I take into Mark 4, 10 through 12, where Jesus speaks in parables so people will not be saved. I said, now can you harmonize those?

Now, I can harmonize them, but I'm just saying I want to see what they're doing, what they know. And then I dig. That's one of the ways I dig.

So the all can, what I believe it means is all people groups, not just each individual. Because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15, 24. It's a covenantal aspect.

So he wants all to come to repentance. Not just the Jews, but all kinds of people, all sorts of people, all those people groups. And we see God's love the world. He gave his only begotten Son.

Well, that would be strange to the ear of a Jew who understands that Jesus is sent to the people of Israel because Jesus even said he was only sent to them. But since they broke the covenant, then the Gentiles. The whole world was then grafted in, or, well, you know, appealed to for the salvation offer. That's one thing. There's another sense.

Where the all is a limited group. And it's the all of the elect. And I can make that case from Romans 5. 5:18, 1st Corinthians 15:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:14. These are verses that I go to, and I can't go through them right now because we don't have much time, but I can go through and show where all can only be in the relationship of the atonement.

I can show that the all can only be the believers and not everybody. I can actually show that. I've shown it many times to people, and they've like said, Oh my goodness, I never saw that. And I show it to them. And so there's that.

And then there's another sense in which, I'm just giving you options, but there's another sense in which God can prescriptively desire something but not arrange it. He can desire that you not lie, and he wants all to be saved, but doesn't arrange that all are saved. And he can do that. Then there's stuff in the Old Testament, which I go through in my notes because I don't have it all memorized, where God desires one thing and arranges another. And I prove it to people from Scripture.

And they're just blown away. And I say, look, this is something you've got to understand, is that you can't just look at a verse like 2 Peter 3.9 or 1 Timothy 2.5 and say the word all means every individual, and we're done. How does God use the term? That's what we want to know. And then I take him sometime to John 6:37 through 40, where Jesus says: All that the Father has given me will come to me.

Well, who's that all? Who's the all?

Well, I would go to Romans, excuse me, Ephesians 1:4, where it says, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. And I'd say, All that the Father chose and gave to the Son.

So, anyway, what I did was I just gave you like four or five different ways of looking at this and different theological approaches.

Now the reason I did that is because this is all in the back of my head, all these things in the back of my head when I'm talking to somebody.

So instead of bringing up 2 Peter 3.9, what I'm going to do, first of all, is I'm going to say, well, what do you think the word all means? I'm digging, I'm fishing. What do they believe? If they say it means every individual. Then I'm going to go to like I said, you know, Mark 4, 10 through 12, or I might go to Second Samuel 1 Samuel 3:14, where God says, I've sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering for ever.

I said, What do you do with these? And this is what I'll I'll present to them and ask them for uh Solutions to these apparent difficulties because it'll tell me, their answers will tell me what level of understanding and experience they have with these kinds of things, and then I'll tackle it from there.

Alright, having said all of that. The first thing I'd recommend you do is simply ask questions. Start with. What do you think it means and why? And see if what they say it means can be supported in Scripture.

A lot of times, what people will do is just assume a certain word means something. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The word world means every individual. When I say, How do you know that? How do you know?

Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, God hates those who do iniquity.

So, how do you know that the word world? And I say to them, it might be true. It might not be true. Just saying it doesn't mean it's true. Please show me from Scripture that that is what it means.

I say, I'm not mad, I'm not challenging you and trying to make you look bad. I'm just saying, have you thought this through? And ask how to validate that idea is the right one. Because if you can't do it from Scripture, it's a weakened opinion that you have. And that's how I I work with them.

Does that make sense? Yes, sir. And thank you, and I appreciate that. And I'll probably go back and listen to this again and take notes from it. But if you were to recommend like a resource like uh I know you have things on Carm there, but like a book or something that that you think that succinctly addresses this in a good way?

I don't have a book. I need to write something on this. On just this.

However, I do have another website where some of this is written. Where I've gone through some of the stuff, and it's the CalvinistCorner.com. Just CalvinistCorner.com. And You know, I'm a Calvinist, and if you're not, that's fine. I'm not trying to push you to that.

That's not my okay, whatever. But in there, I have articles. Does God want all to be saved? All men saved? And there's various articles that'll go through a lot of this stuff that I've mentioned.

And you can find a lot of good stuff in there. and it are deeper articles than I put on Carm generally.

Okay. Okay, thank you for telling me that.

Alright. And uh Check it out. Read through some and give me a call back sometime and say, you know, I really like this article and that other one bothered me. And I'll say, okay, why? Tell me what's up.

We'll talk.

Okay. All right, sounds good. Have a good weekend, sir. You too, man. God bless.

Oscar waited 44 minutes, I think. That's the longest we've ever had anybody wait. He says: Do people go to hell because of sin or lack of eternal life? Both, but it's because of sin and judgment. Call back Monday, Oscar from New York.

I apologize. We'll get to you earlier. Have a great weekend, everybody. May the Lord bless you and by His grace, back on the air on Monday, and we'll talk to you then. God bless.

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