Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

Okay. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, your list of Matt Slick Live. And as usual, if you want to give me a call, it's easy. Just dial 8772-072276.

And looking for the stuff in Uh Where is it in Clubhouse for the Carm Room? I don't see it there. I'll look a little bit later. All right, we have nobody waiting right now, but if you are so inclined and you want to give me a call, you can. It's easy.

Now, we're making plans for me to fly out to Cannapolis. Where is Cannapolis? I think it's next to Raleigh. I've got to make sure because I get my airports mixed up, and so I'm going to do a search right now.

So, I'm going to be speaking to Kannapolis, North Carolina, at least on a Saturday. It might be on a Friday night. We're just depending. It depends on a couple things. My wife's schedule.

She's going to go with us, and I have to. You don't Yeah. arrange stuff around her schedule.

So we're going to be flying into Charlotte and then I plan to go up to Winston-Salem, go through Lexington and the like.

So I know that our plans were on, then they were off, now they're on again. And so I can give you details, but you know, no big deal.

So I'll be flying into Charlotte either Thursday or Friday and doing a seminar on Saturday. I'll put the information up and put it in my newsletter as I release it next week, all the details, because it's two weeks out. And if you're interested in attending in Kannapolis, which is just north of Charlotte, North Carolina. You can check it out and we can go there.

So I'll put the I'll put the information up probably tonight. And like I said, put it in the in the w in the um the newsletter uh next week. Where I'll be. And also, if anybody wants me to come by and speak at a church or something like that while I'm out in the area, let me know. You can send a request to info at carm.org.

Info at C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. And I'm pretty much a flexible guy.

So if I'm out there and I get an email that someone says, hey, we just found an opening. Come on over. If I'm able to, I will. I'm going to buy an open-ended ticket so that I can change the day if I need to and things like that. You know, so I can be out because I'll be out there.

And I definitely want to go by the radio station and see the headquarters of Winston-Salem out there. I think that's where it's located.

So no big deal. All right, now, let's just get on the line with Scott from Utah. Scott, welcome. You're on the air. Hi.

Hi, thanks for taking my call. I just uh I got a question. Uh the the church I go to uh Is in the means of trying to build a new building, and our pastor teaches tithing. out of the New Testament From all the famous verses, the Malachi three. Nine and ten.

and shows that Abraham tithes and Jacob tithes. But when I study it out in the New Testament, even even the time that Jesus Mention it in Matthew 23, 23. He was talking to the Pharisees who are under the law. I was just wondering if tithing is for today, why didn't the Apostle Paul, who was Apostle to the Gentiles, Say that you should tithe. Instead, he says you should give willingly and not out of compulsion.

There you go. You got it right. That's it.

So, what I teach people is you're free to tithe, you're not obligated to tithe. And that's it between you and God. That's it.

Right, because isn't the Old Testament tithe way more than 10%? Didn't they have. Festival tithe and So it'd be like twenty-five percent or something. Yeah, it was more in a lot of areas there, but we're not under the law, just like you said.

So, if I were a pastor again, I would say about tithing, because it's in the Bible, you've got to talk about it. I would say, look, you're free to tithe according to what you want. Don't feel guilty if you don't, and don't feel obligated to do it. You're free. You know, but the Bible does talk about the the workman's worthy of his hire and that's how we make a a living the ministers and pastors out of the tithes, and that's it.

So I knew a uh or I not knew it personally, but I I read about uh George Mueller. And he was the orphan king in England. He died in like 1898 or something like that. And uh he was just my hero. And so his His philosophy for preaching and teaching was very simple: that he would.

Ask God for the door to open. And he would beg God and ask God: open the door, open the door. And only when the door opened would he go through. And so, if he felt it was even God's will, he would always lay everything by prayer. But anyway, long story short, he was asked to get to preach at a church, and he said, sure, under two conditions.

And one was get rid of what was called uh uh the paid pews. The the people who paid uh tithes a lot could sit in the front and there's more status. He said get rid of that. And the other thing was that he would only live on the tithes and offerings that the people gave. and that the elders were not to tell the church that.

They were not to tell the church that. Because if God wanted him to stay, the doors would open. If he did not want him to stay, the doors would close. And that was his philosophy. And I live by that as much as I can the same way.

If God wants people to support, He'll put it upon their hearts. And if He doesn't, then that's okay. It's in God's hands.

So your pastor, if He's going back to the La Old Testament law, And he's trying to get you to tithe for a monetary gain for a building that's between you and God. He can let it be known. We need this funding. Do what you want, and that's it. And that's all he can do he can't say you're obligated to.

Very simple. you know, I I mean, I try to give the benefit of the doubt because it's so it's so clear and obvious I don't know how somebody could study it and see that that was not for today. Yeah, we um Now here I'm going to go to scripture here. This is not trying to put guilt on anybody or anything like that, but this is 1 Timothy 5:17. And I want you to Understand the context of what's going on.

It says, the elders who rule well. Are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

Now, verse 18. For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing, and the laborer is worthy of his wages.

So this is in the pastoral epistles.

So what Paul is saying... Is that the man who lives by the gospel is to be paid by the gospel? Because it says, for the scripture says. You shall not muzzle the ox while he's threshing the labor's worthy of his wages.

So. There is that New Testament I don't want to say admonition, but it's a qualification, I would say, for the Christians to know. That a pastor works and does a lot and 40, 50, 60 hours a week, sometimes 2 o'clock in the morning, he's got to get up, do a visitation at a hospital. You know, and he's trying to survive and pay the bills for his own family. I remember when I first became a pastor the first time, as an assistant pastor, they literally asked me what's the least amount of money I could live on.

the least they asked me that question. And I've ended up getting hired, and I was below the I was below poverty level. With a wife and a baby. And we just trusted God as much as we could. I made in 1993 or 4, I forgot what year it was, $16,009 gross income in Southern California.

That's poverty.

So you know, and I never complained. I just trusted God and He routinely came through because all we could do. And the people they had a $250,000 organ. In the church. Right.

So the thing is, you want to be able to support somebody, but you're not obligated to. If you don't feel led to, then don't do it. But if you do, then I agree with you. You know, the local church has to be supported. They have bills, light bills, stuff.

And I fully agree with that. I just can't wrap my head around the. studying and and clear teaching that The tithe was something different in the Old Testament. And even when you call on Abraham, That was a one-time thing and that was after the spoils of war. Right.

Right.

And so, yeah. Right, and tithing is there in 10%. And my wife and I at present are not really attending a church regularly because of her health and a couple of issues. But when we go, we want to tithe. What we're doing now is directing money to help others.

you know, when we can. And that's fine. And so we want to, it's for the body of Christ, it's for the furthering of the kingdom. And like I like to tell people, do not feel obligated. You just feel free to.

That's all. Would you consider that too your time? Like I've and others have done. literally over the I've been going here twenty some years, I probably have done a couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of labor. that I'm never charged for.

Yep, that's free. And nor do I want pay for. By scale. Yeah, I just I I ju I was just wanting to get some clarity because I I just couldn't see how he was teaching it. I agree with you from what you've said.

And yeah, time is also something you can tithe because you could give $100 to the church or do five hours of work at the church worth $500. And That's a tithe of time that you've got your skill set and you work.

So. They're you know, it I it's a nice thing. It's a nice thing to trust God. And put it upon have people Have God put it upon people's hearts. 'Cause that's it.

And that's how I survive. In this ministry by people, yeah. When you get dogmatic and you're using the Malachi one where you say where you're cursed with a curse. I'm like, whoa, I don't think that's in the right context. Right.

So, yeah. But anyhow, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. You're welcome very much. God bless.

It's alright. And you know, just as a segue, we do stay on the air by your support. I don't like that. I do not like even the people I know, friends and people on staff here, they say, man, you got a mention on the radio. You know, and I said, Yeah, I just don't like doing it, but because he brought this up, I'm just going to say that we do stay on the air by your support.

That's the only way.

So, if you like what you hear and you want to see this ministry continue, please consider going to carm.org forward slash donate. And you can just sign up right there. Every little bit helps. We ask $10 a month, and we're trying to get a thousand people. That may sound like a lot coming in, but it's not when you have four missionaries you're supporting and various costs and various things for internet and salaries and things like that.

And we don't make much. In fact, I won't say how much, but you can get all the numbers online. When we told somebody how much we make, how much carn brings in on a yearly basis, they were shocked how little it was. Are you kidding? I thought it'd be five times that.

Nope. Oh, no. And this is how it's been for me. For for decades. And we just trust God.

And You know, we get low, like we're low now, and we don't know where things are going to come from. That's okay. God provides, and that's okay. But look what the Bible says: 2 Corinthians 9:7. Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion.

For God loves a cheerful giver.

So, the point I'm trying to make here is: don't feel obligated. Don't do that. Just lay it before God and say, Lord, what do you want me to do? And just pray and ask. And then you know that if you've been praying and you've been asking, and God puts it on your heart for whatever it is.

That this is what he you believe is what he is wanting for you. In fact, that reminds me, I got to find a verse. I think it's in Chronicles. Oh, I got to find this verse. It's been a while.

Um. I gotta find this first. Let's see. It is from your hand that we give back to you. I it's an in there.

Uh Let's see if I can find it really fast. I've got to do a search here. I used to have it memorized. 1 Chronicles 29:14. There it is.

And David says, But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to offer as generously as this? For all things come from you, and from your hand we have given back to you. I just love that. 1 Chronicles 29, 14. May the Lord bless you.

Hey, give me a call. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it is easy. 877-207-2276. Let's get to Anthony from Kansas. Hey Anthony, welcome.

You're on the air. Oh, hi, Matt. How are you doing? Hanging in there, brother, by God's grace. By God's grace.

What do you got, man?

Well, I'm asking the person that has been struggling with this lately. Um How can a saved person ever be lost? And how do you know you're really, really saved?

Okay, two questions. Good. No, a true Christian cannot be lost because God says in Hebrews 13, 5, he will never leave us or forsake us. Jesus says in John 6, 37 through 40, all that the Father gives to him will come to him. And he says, The will of the Father is that of all that he's given me, I lose none, but raise him up on the last day.

Jesus can't fail to do the will of the Father. Jesus says in John 3, 16, God sold the world, he gave his only begotten Son. Whoever would believe in him would not perish, but have everlasting life.

So Jesus equates everlasting life with not perishing. That's John 3.16. In John 10, 27, he says, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish.

So Jesus speaks of the issue of never perishing along with eternal life. He also says that you can't lose your salvation because he says he won't lose any. That's what he says.

Furthermore, in Ephesians 1:4, God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. He chose us for what? For salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

For he chose us in him, excuse me, he chose us from the beginning for salvation. This is what the Bible says, 2 Corinthians, or sorry, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

So if he does that, and he's chosen us from the beginning for salvation. And Jesus, who canceled the sin debt, would have to be for the elect at the cross, Colossians 2:14, you can't lose your salvation.

Now, how do you know? You're in.

Well It's not that hard. 1 John 5:13 says, These things are written so you may know you have eternal life. In other words, you can know you do. And personally, I can testify to you, I can tell you, I know I have eternal life. I know I do.

Because it does not depend on my goodness, but on the goodness of Christ. If my salvation depended on my goodness. To tithe. to take the Eucharist, to be baptized, to not do bad things, to make sure I'm being sanctified enough to end up in theosis and end up with God, blah, blah, blah. If any of that depended on me, For salvation, I'm lost.

I'm not good enough. We can't.

So, how do you know you're saved?

Well, 1 Corinthians 2:14 says. That the natural man, the unbeliever, cannot receive the things of God. They're foolishness to him. What are these spiritual things? The Trinity is true.

Jesus is God in flesh, died on the cross, rose from the dead physically in the same body He died in, were saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. If you affirm these things, you believe these things. It's because God is granted that you have faith, Philippians 1:29, that faith is in Christ, which is the work of God, John 6:29. You cannot come to him unless it's granted by the Father, John 6, 65.

So if you believe, it's because God granted it to you. And if he grants it to you, you're then justified because Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5, Galatians 2:16, Philippians 3:9 says that. You're saved by faith. You're justified before God by faith, not by faith in what you do.

Okay, there's a lot. I gave you a lot, but that's just the quick and slick version.

Alright.

Okay. I have one other question, and this may sound kind of strange, but you know. I'll just give you an example of what I do. I like to create characters, you know. And let me apply this.

Like, you know, but a lot of comic books with superheroes that can fly through walls and all that sort of thing.

Well, I just create my own characters, my own team of superheroes that can do things, you know. It's just something I do, it's fun, it's not just that, you know, other things too. Um just is this idolatry. No. Because you're not bowing to them and you're not worshiping them.

So I've written three novels, and I have these characters in there, and some are quite capable, and some are not. I'm not worshiping them because I invent something in my mind. But if you, you know, when I watch the Superman movie or, you know, Thor or whatever it is, I'm not worshiping them. To worship them means that you're putting your faith and trust and hope in them. You don't do that.

Okay? No prompts.

Okay. Okay. But uh How is the best way to study about the whole thing about internal security? Because some people say the opposite about it.

Well, 2 Peter, in 2 Peter, for example, it says: Dr. Donwood says, it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness and having known your turn from the Let's go. And then that part in Hebrews 6, you know, that's the grand area of all that salvation can be lost. Let's go there. Let's go.

All right, so here's what it says.

Now, first of all, who's the book of Hebrews? written to. Who's it written to? He was Hebrew Christians. Or the Hebrews, but yeah, and normally the Hebrew Christians, normally.

We would say that, but it doesn't mean that they're all Christians that addressed it, okay?

So. He says, Leave the elementary teachings of the Christ behind. Press on to maturity. In other words, you can learn stuff, but keep going. You've got to be mature in Christ.

Now he says for or in the case of those who have once been enlightened. Or what does it mean? to be enlightened. If you go, for example, to John 1. Uh It says I'm trying to find the exact wording.

Yeah, here it is. John came as a witness to the light so that they might believe through him. In verse 29, I believe it is. Yeah, that's a different verse. Jesus is called the light of the world.

Well, he's the one who sheds light on truth. People can be enlightened, but doesn't mean they're saved. It could mean they're saved. It doesn't necessitate that they're saved. See, they've once been enlightened.

That means they've had certain ideas. They've had certain made awareness. Did that fit to Judas?

Well, Judaism was never saved. John six sixty-five Uh John 6. No, it's a different verse. And so. Uh And it says, and have tasted the heavenly gift.

What does it mean to taste the heavenly gift?

Well, people say it means you're saved.

Well, if it does, you're just saying that's what it means. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Please show me that that's what it means. It's not like a challenge here, knock this off my shoulder and we'll get in a fistfight. No.

It's well, how do you know us what it means? You're assuming it. And if we look at this issue of tasting the heavenly gift, Does it mean does it necessitate that they're saved? And the answer is, well, no. It might mean that, it might not mean it.

Each one is equally valid. And then you go on and make partakers of the Holy Spirit. They say you're a partaker. It means you're saved. Where does it say a partaker of the Holy Spirit is saved?

Let Scripture interpret Scripture. Was Judas a partaker of the Holy Spirit's work through Jesus? Of course he was. He was never saved to begin with. They tasted the good word of God.

That's what Judas did. The powers of the age have come. That applies to Judas. And they've fallen away.

Well It says, and it's impossible to renew them again in repentance.

Now, people who say, they go to Hebrews 6:4 through 6, and they say you can lose your salvation. I asked him, can you ever get it back? Let's say a person loses their salvation, repents, comes back to Christ, believes, really truly repentant. Is that possible? And they go, yeah.

So then why does the Bible say it's impossible to renew them again to repentance? Are you believing the whole text or part of it? And we got a break coming up. But hold on, we'll get to more, okay? Because there's more to this.

Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please understood. Stand. You're not good enough to keep yourself right with the infinitely holy God. You've got to rely on His grace completely and totally, not on His grace and your ability.

Trust in him. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, we have it.

Well, we don't have an open line now. We just got filled up.

Well, let's kick peck on with Anthony from Kansas. You still there, buddy? Yeah, I'm still here. You guys are here.

Okay so That help? Yeah. There's a little bit more I could say, but I just So here's the thing about Hebrews 6:4 and 6. Nothing says it, there's a person saved, and everything in it can apply to Judas, who was never saved to begin with. It's just a point.

I see. If someone wants to say it means they're saved, they need to let Scripture interpret Scripture.

So, like I said earlier, Jesus says, You have eternal life, you shall never perish. Jesus equates eternal life with never perishing. John 3. John 3:16, John 10, 27, 28, John 6, 39, and 40. He actually does this.

So there's reasons for it because the scriptures teach it. The problem here, now I want to say this, I want you to be clear. He says When you have a phrase in Scripture, What does it mean? People tell you what it means. It may mean that.

It may not mean that. How do you know? The best thing is let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

Now what's the context? First of all, the context, but the context doesn't tell us what these phrases mean.

So we have to go to other places in Scripture to tell us what it means, but we don't find those phrases anyplace else in scripture.

So now we're stuck.

So we can't say, oh, it means they're saved. You can say, I think it means they're saved. But it's not a deductively necessary statement of truth. And so, therefore, this cannot be a section of scripture that can be used to prove you can lose your salvation. Because there are alternate explanations, and what is said could equally apply to Judas, who was never saved to begin with.

That's my point. It's a simple point.

Okay. Okay, and how about Second Peter? Two one. Uh-huh. Thank you, Peter.

It was it's in the latter part of 2 Peter 2. Uh where it says it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness. Yeah. Yeah, uh sketch the elements of the def yeah and uh I'm trying to get exact verse. I think it's verse 20.

For they had escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord Jesus, they are again entangled in them. The last state becomes worse than the first. Is that the one you're talking about? Yes.

Okay. So I'm going to teach you a concept. And this is a deadly serious concept. You have to understand this. And then we'll get back to the verse.

This is something not taught in a lot of churches, but it's very biblical.

So I'm going to give you a little Bible lesson that's going to help. A covenant Is a pact or an agreement broken? between two or more parties. A covenant My wife and I have a covenant. The covenant was established at our wedding ceremony with certain promises.

and boundaries. I will keep to you and no one else till death do us part. It's a covenant and a covenant sign. is our wedding rings. All right, now.

The word in Latin for covenant is testamentum Old Testament, Old Testament, New Testament, Old Covenant, New Covenant. God works covenantally. and he has signs with the covenants. There's a covenant with Adam. Don't eat of the tree.

You'll be fine. If you stay here, you'll be okay. Covenant with Noah. You know, you won't destroy the world again by flood, and the covenant sign is the Rainbow. We have the covenant of circumcision.

We have the covenant of the Lord's Supper. All right. Why am I talking about this? Because covenantally, people can be in a covenant and not saved. The covenant sign of circumcision was administered to the male on the eighth day in the Old Testament, but doesn't mean they were saved.

In fact, when A household, the leader, the man of the house, would be converted to Judaism, for example. Then all of the servants had to be circumcised as well, all the male servants. But it doesn't mean that they were all adherents and believers, it's because they were under the covenant.

So covenant is very important. Peter in 1 and 2 Peter refers to the Old Testament thirty-six times. He's speaking to the Jews, and he uses a great deal of contextual analysis. It says they in 2 Peter 2.20. The context says they were unreasoning animals.

Verse 12. Revilers, verse 12. Wrongdoers, verse 13. Reviling their deception, verse 13. Eyes full of adultery that never ceased from sin.

Verse 14. Forsaking the right way, have gone astray, love the wages of unrighteousness. Verse 15. Springs without water, mist driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. Verse 17.

Speaking arrogant words, slaves of corruption. I go on and on.

So they're not true believers. But they can be, in one sense, included covenantally. It's just just introducing these concepts to you. If they have escaped the defilements of the world, how are they doing that? Are they escaping it by actual salvation, or are they escaping the defilements by participating in a covenant that God has established with his people?

And they enter into a covenant, but they're not saved because that is certainly biblical to do. And so this can be explained very easily when you understand covenant theology.

Now, this is not taught very frequently, but it is exceedingly biblical. In Hebrews thirteen twenty it talks about the blood of the eternal covenant. In fact, when, if I were to just type in, for example, Uh let's see. I'm gonna type in the word covenant.

Okay. Just the word covenant. It occurs 321 times in the Bible. three hundred and twenty one times.

So, covenants have different degrees, different styles, different types, conditions, and it's included in the New Testament in the New Covenant. In fact, in Jeremiah 31, It talks about The new covenant that God will make with people. That can be broken, actually. It looks like it. And that's a whole other topic.

I'm just giving you a lot of stuff.

So 2 Peter 2.20 is not talking. About the believers because it talks about them being already having been revilers and defiled and things like this. But they've escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord.

So they have had an understanding. just as many people can. But never commit to it. You can escape, even as people would become Jews and could be circumcised in the old covenant, doesn't mean they were going to heaven. Means they were in the covenant, and God says, if you participate in the covenant, I'll bless you.

Doesn't mean you go to heaven, though. And this is an unfamiliar truth about covenant theology that a lot of people are just not aware of, and this is one of the solutions that needs to be entertained at this point.

Okay? Okay. I know I gave you a lot. I've been giving you a lot on this one today, you know. But that is how it is.

Okay. Okay. Well, that's a lot to chew on. I know you have other callers, so thanks a lot for your help. All right, and if you're not sure You think about it, Just formulate a question, call back tomorrow, and we'll talk some more.

We'll go over this some more. We could talk about covenant.

Okay, sure. And I get exclaimed. You can ask me how the Ten Commandments are a covenant document. And I'll show you. Don't you?

I'll show you. and we can go through. People need to know about covenant.

Okay. Okay. Well, God bless, buddy. All right. Thank you.

You're welcome. And you can't lose your salvation. All right, now let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome, buddy. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt, I um Yes, I'll want to discuss Daniel chapter two verse forty six. And it's more the language than just the chapter of Talks about the king bowing down and before him and and uh worship him. And the reason I bring that up is because I know a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses will type they'll bring those types of text up as a proof against the beauty of Christ when when uh Christ is is worshiped, people are bowing down and I looked up I think it was like seventy five different versions Of that text of scripture where he uses that wording worship and bow down. Most of them say worship. There are a few that say, Yeah.

You know, just bow down or prostrate, or right? He was adored, I think, Catholic Virgin, but I know the the New World translation specifically They use that one specifically for a purpose. I just wanted to get your thoughts: is that a translation? If she was just missing some context, obviously. Many normally received workshops.

What I would do at this point is say to the J Dub, That's correct. Don't argue it. Because it is worded differently in different English translations, and if you try and defend the whole thing, it's not going to make any difference with them. To just let it alone. Because if they were to bring this up to me, well, Nebuchadnezzar.

you know, right there in Daniel 2.46. You know, the King James has worshiped.

So it doesn't mean that Jesus is God if he's worshipped. And that's a valid logical inference. And I'd say, I think it's a good point. And that way I'm not arguing with them. I didn't agree that it's their conclusions about Jesus are correct.

And then what I'll do is I'll say, Yeah, I get you, I get you. And then I'll go to a different direction. And I've learned this from experience. You want to prove this point, you're not going to be able to because the English translations say something different. All they can do is go to those, and you're going to go in circles.

So hold on, we've gotta pull you right back down for the break, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back. Please stay tuned. And don't listen to the Jehovah's Witnesses. They're not a Christian religion, it's a non-Christian cult.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. So, there we go. You hit the right button.

Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Jermaine. All right, Jermaine. Are you there? All right, yes, I'm here.

All right. So you see The issue here is getting through to them. and so sometimes you got to pick your battles. That's not a battle I would pick. Just simply because um They do have a way of really showing their position.

And you can make yourself look invalid, and theological and unbiblical because you'll say, No, it means this.

Well, why does these versions they might respond? Why does the other version say worship?

Now you're kind of stuck.

So I say, yeah, I think it's a good point. I think it's a good point. That tells them you're open minded, you're objective. And you should go to another direction. without having argued it.

You see what I'm saying? Yeah, actually, I do, and I haven't encountered. One on that. I haven't had a personal debate on that verse yet. I've heard the arguments, but The one thing I would I would just kind of bring up is there's obviously a context there.

And I guess that's kind of part of why I'm calling you to see is was this a translation issue because yeah, I can I can say, you know, I can capitulate and say, you're right, it does say worship, but at the same time, Daniel's still in captivity.

So what kind of king is still in captivity to people that have have enslaved his people. It's obvious there's a context there. And that's that's kind of what I wanted to see. Yeah. But just let me tell you, just let me tell you, with a Jehovah's Witness.

Best leave it alone. It's just best to leave it alone. Go to a different direction. But look at the context, look at what it is, see why they translate it that way, what the word is. The word occurs twice.

Twelve times in the Old Testament. And it's all in Daniel chapter 2 and 3. And now that's interesting. And it means worship. Uh homage to Daniel, but it in every other place in the NESB, Let's see.

is translated as worship. Even in the NESB, the only place it's translated as homage is Daniel 2.46. Yeah, you see.

So Yeah, very interesting. That's right. All right. Now, yeah, um, now You being a scholar and all, would would there be a particular reason they use that language? Um There is within that culture, the kings were held in extremely high.

Honor. And they would do prostrations. They might even um Offer sacrifice. It doesn't mean they're considering them gods, but that it would be a very high sign of respect.

So in the case of Daniel being representative of the prophet, I mean, of God. If a king like Nebuchadnezzar knew this and believed it, and would offer a sacrifice, he's offering a sacrifice in the context to God. Before Daniel, the cults can take stuff like this and they can. Then um Twisted. And it's hard to get through them.

to them. That's why I just You go, yeah, I think it's it's a I understand what you're saying. And then move on. That's a Okay. All right.

That's software. I see this is a a pretty good thing to compare. Oh, you're muffled. Oh, sorry about that. My mic was down.

But yeah, I can see your point. I think it is worthy to just. kind of move on from that point. Yeah, you got to pick your battles. And that's what I do with Jehovah's Witnesses, with varying cults and varying things like that.

I'll say, well, you know, we just see. We're just gonna see.

Okay, that's it. All right. All right, well. I'm going to hope to talk to you again tomorrow. God bless you, man.

Appreciate it. All right, man. God bless you, too, brother. God bless. That was Jermaine, and now let's get to Diane from Virginia.

Diane, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, good evening. Or I have a question about Ephesians 4, 8.

Okay. There are two nouns put together followed by a verb, and I can't Put them in context at all. I don't understand what he led. Captivity, captive. Right.

Mint.

So it's a quote from the Old Testament, and it's let's see, where is that? It's from Psalm 68, which is considered a messianic psalm. And so Paul has taken this. And He has applied it.

Now, I'll just say, there's a bit of discussion about this in different theological contexts. What exactly is going on?

Well, here's one of the theories. This is what I lean towards. that the people who died Before the crucifixion of Christ, who trusted in God and were believers as much as they had knowledge in the true and living God, when they died. They went to a holding place, a good place, Abraham's bosom. The bad went to Hades.

When Jesus was crucified, Then the idea is that he went to Abraham's bosom and led captive. the host of those captives. that he took them and ascended. on high. And this seems to be, it's consistent with some ideas in scripture, and that's what I lean towards.

I'm not going to die in that hill, but that's what I lean toward. Because it says. He led captive a host of captives and he gave gifts to men.

Now, this expression, he ascended, what does it mean except he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended as himself, also who ascended far above the heavens, so that he might fill all things. And then he gave some as apostles, prophets, etc.

So, this is why that theological perspective is. is proposed in this section of Scripture. All right. Chender that. And how does that relative to him the gifts that he gave to men.

The people who So, uh When it says he gave gifts, uh Let me the word there in gift uh is uh domata. And uh It just means gift, alright? Yeah. So there's different kinds of gifts. There's charismatic gifts too.

And then there's another one, Doran, which is another word for gift in Greek.

So here it just says the gifts, and generically, it just means generally, you know, it can mean material gifts, it can mean a good gift that's beneficial to you, and things like this. Mm-hmm.

So Then it goes on, and it says, He gave some as apostles, some as prophets. those pastors and t uh evangelists and then pastors and teachers. For the equivocal of the saints.

So, some think it might be that the gifting that he's talking about is that to the church. He gave apostles. even prophets in the New Testament sense of the charismatic movement. Evangelists, some as pastors and teachers. Then, if you go to 1 Corinthians 14, it talks about charismatic gifts.

That are for the church. And in 1 Corinthians 1:7, Paul says that the church is not to lack any charismatic gift whilst waiting for the return of Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7.

So. There are different categories of gifts. and different words for the word gift, and this is why we gotta be careful, not assume too much. But these are some of the possibilities of what it might mean.

Okay. Okay. So the relation of him leading Captivity Captive. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And gave Gift to Man, that's a reference back to Psalm 68. Yes.

Yep, a thread is caught from Shom 68. sixty eight eighteen. Right? Yeah. I guess I'm still confused about how how this sentence, he led captivity capit, is related to Gabe Gi it's to me, it it seems out of context.

So that's what I'm trying I'm trying to put that sentence that I don't understand, leading captivity captive in trying to fit it into the context of the Of Ephesians 4, and I'm just not getting it. Or is it something that. I just need to accept and move on. Yeah, and there are times when you're going to read something, you're going to say to yourself. What is going on?

What what's being said here? And this is one of those places led captive. A host of captives. Why that phraseology from Psalm sixty-eight?

Well, we can't ask Paul. All we can do is try to do it. Try and figure it out from what he said. Theologians have wrestled with it. Nobody's uh they aren't all in absolute agreement.

And so this deals with what's called the interim or the intermediate state between the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ, these three days. What happened? And related to this, I'll just throw some more stuff out at you, is 1 Peter. One I think it's seventeen eighteen Well three uh scoopy three. 1 Peter 3.

Let me get over there. Come on, I'm getting my my keyboard wrong. Uh For Christ, uh Yeah, here it goes. For Christ died for sins once for all, for the just, for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God. Having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which he also went and made proclamation of the saints.

Now in prison. Or the spirits, excuse me, now in prison, who were once disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah.

So there's another issue that we throw into the mix. And so we say, during that interim period, is Ephesians talking about that? That when he ascended on high, it seems to be talking about that because it descended into the earth. That's what the illusion is about his death.

So then Paul is bringing this. He ascended on high, and he led captive.

So it looks like he went down into the earth. A holding place. took the captives, The host of good and ascended on high. Wouldn't be ascending with the wicked, but the good. And so that's why the theory is that he went to Abraham's bosom.

This is out of Luke 16:19 through 31. and there is Abraham's bosom, good place, and Hades bad place. And the good He went down there. Took him captive into heaven because his blood had been offered on the cross. and the people in Hades were that the spirits were condemned.

And he made proclamation saying, This is who I am, this is what I've done, and this is why you're stuck here. This is the general theory, it's about as best I can give you.

Alright.

Well, it's better than where I was. At least at least I don't feel so crazy that it it is I'm not the only one. Pondering over it. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tough place of scripture.

It is. It's a tough section. of scripture. And admittedly so, and I've wrestled with it over the years and wondered, and I've come to a certain place where I think, I say, I think this is what it means. And then we'll find out in heaven.

It's amazing when you read a passage several times and and then one time you read it and this one particular phrase, grab the and You think, what did that mean? There you go. Good for you. And usually, when you start digging for a treasure, sometimes you don't find exactly what you're looking for, but you find other things. And that's what God wants to happen to.

It's very interesting anyway. It is. kinda be fun sometimes.

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, you're welcome very much. We'll go you on YouTube. All right, so there you go. You know, this the point is before the last 15 seconds of the show is that we don't theologians don't have all the answers. We have a lot of answers, but how many of them are correct?

You need to look and study to show yourself approved before God. And that's what you got to do. That's your responsibility as Christians. And if you don't have an answer sometime, that's okay. Keep trusting, keep reading, keep believing, and keep your eyes on the Lord Jesus no matter what.

May the Lord bless you by His grace. We'll be back on there tomorrow. And Lord willing, we'll talk to you then. Have a great evening, everyone. God bless.

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