Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Alright everybody, welcome to the show. There we go. Excuse me, oh, I get a little cough there. Welcome to the show. If you want to give me a call as usual, all you have to do is dial eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

I want to hear from him and give me a call.

Now, if you want to watch the show, you can go to rumble.com and just type in Matt Slick Live. You can watch there. You can also listen in in Clubhouse. You can also watch on YouTube. YouTube, let's say it's just Matt Slick Live.

That's it. It's Matt's Lick Live on YouTube. And we don't send it to the Carm. Yeah, we do. That's right.

We do send it now to the Carm org video. If you can watch it in Karm videos or whatever. All right.

Now, last night I was on a show. We did four hours. It's only supposed to be an hour. And. It was a Christian apologist, a guy.

He did a good job. He did a good job. And um So hold on, let me check this out. And uh Boy, I got a frog in my throat. I really have a frog in my throat.

Alright, so uh I um I did this thing with them, two guys, for a while. And uh Just filled with some questions, you know, standard stuff. And then some obstreperous atheists came in. And, you know, and, you know, one of the things I find interesting is one of the things they always want to make sure they say is how I get trounced in varying debates. You always get beat, Mad, so badly.

Oh, okay, thank you.

Now, can we deal with the argument we're talking about? And it's really kind of interesting because I think it makes them feel better to say it. And I think that's what's going on.

Well, anyway. Towards the end of the show. I went in and did a thing on the Eastern Orthodox priesthood. And the intention was to demonstrate. To demonstrate that the entire Eastern Orthodox Church is a false church.

And uh so what I did is I presented No that's wrong one here. I gotta get to the right uh email. No, not email, but uh outline. I have a bunch of outlines. And what I did was, I presented something.

And I'm going to be doing some more research on this, but it's very simple. And I've talked about this before here. What I'm going to do is go over some of the stuff From The Eastern Orthodox Church that I've discovered, and we do the same thing with the, I already have done the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church, because both of them say the same thing. You've got to understand something. Both of them say that they have a priesthood that's in the church today, and that their priests can present sacrifices and things like this, the priestly garments and the whole bit, and they have special authority.

This is Old Testament style, not New Testament covenant. Yeah. And my challenge lately has been to have Eastern Orthodox individuals show me from the New Testament, New Testament covenant. That's a very important statement. The covenant, which means after the death of Christ, because that's where the new covenant is instituted.

Please show me biblically in the New Testament documents, in the New Testament covenant, where they have a priesthood that does the following. It offers continuous sacrifice, which is what they do. It says continuously repeated on the sacrificial altars of Orthodox churches. That means. The Eucharist.

Continuously repeated on the sacrificial altars. Sacrificial altar. as its own words. Yeah. and the sacrifice of the Eucharist happens repeatedly.

So they have a repeated sacrifice. Yeah. And The EO Priest is offering the ever-slain Jesus for the forgiveness of man's sins and recreation of the entire cosmos. And the bread and wine are now the actual blood and body of Christ.

Now, those are logically impossible. But I'm just showing you that this is stuff. I've got the documentation on my website. You don't have to read it all right now. But these things are found in the Old Testament, not in the New Testament.

We don't find a present-day priesthood in the New Testament. Where you have people who, a special class who offers continual sacrifices, sacrifices for sin at an altar. There's it's just not. There.

Okay, let me say this again. I got to make sure you understand me. Not. there in the New Testament.

So, but there is in Exodus 29:12, the altar or holy table is the heart and focal point. Oh, that was a different quote. What they say, this is at goarts.org, the altar or holy table is the heart and focal point of the Orthodox Church. But this this information that I'm getting from Orthodox sites Is to me is revelatory. It's really interesting.

It says that our priests are mediators between God and man, that they have exclusive authority to offer the sacrifice of the Eucharist. They have, like I said, priestly garments.

Okay.

So there is no New Testament covenant priesthood that models a human priest offering repeated sacrifices for sin at an altar by priests with special authority, special garments, and who act as mediators between God and man. It is not there. This is super clear. Critical. Because if this is not there in the scriptures, it's not taught, and it's so critical to their churches, then why do they do that which is not prescribed in the Bible in such an essential, critical way?

It's simply not found in God's Word.

Now, since their priesthood is necessary and authoritative for their church, and since it's not based on the New Testament, but it's modeled after the Old Testament, then it's an invalid priesthood because it's a retention of the Old Testament system, which has been abrogated and done away with. The new covenant of which Christians are under does not teach the Eastern Orthodox priesthood model. It doesn't teach it.

Now, if you're a Neo person out there listening and this is just irking you. You're getting irked or perturbed by it, well, then you know, just do me a favor, go through the New Testament. Yeah. And after the death of Christ, and the writings that occur after his death, because that's the new covenant documents. Find me where you have a priestly class of men who offer repeated sacrifices of the Eucharist, where they cleanse of sin, it's propitiatory sacrificial, where they have priestly garments, priestly, this briefly, show it to me.

And send it to me at info at carm.org.

So It but it's not there. I've looked.

Okay, I have looked. I've done an extensive uh research uh on Hyrus, the word priest and priesthood and priesthoods and priestly work, all throughout the New Testament. It's not there. This means they have a false priesthood. It means our church is false.

The same thing goes with the Roman Catholic churches. It just simply means. Their churches are false. And they are false. They are blasphemous, false churches that have Old Testament style theology for priesthood sacrifice that you have to submit to in order to have your sins forgiven on a repeated basis.

This is Old Testament. It is not. New Testament.

So There you go. If you want to give me a call, you can. 877-207-2276. Wide open calls. You can do whatever you want to talk about.

Three open calls. You can also email me, three open lines, that is. You can also email me at info at carm.org. Info at C-A-R-M.org. Let's get to Will from Pennsylvania.

Will, welcome. You're on the air.

So my wife and I are both Protestant Christians and Reformed Christians. And so my wife mistakenly requested more information about the Mormon Church. Yeah. came over on Saturday and Uh I quickly realized what seemed to be was a mistake is actually a good opportunity to present the real Jesus, the real gospel to them.

So he gives another meeting with them tomorrow. And I don't know much about the Mormon doctrine, but I want to be able to. present the gospel in a proper light while also Having an understanding of where they're coming from.

So I wanted to know if you had any tips, tip insurance. any doctrinal highlights where I may be able to Properly present the gospel to them while also having a basic understanding of where they're coming from.

Alright, so What I'll do is I'll tell you what Mormonism teaches, basic the basic theology, okay? And then we'll go over some ways to witness to them. And uh a strategy that you have to know. Use definitions, not terms. That's really important.

But anyway, what Mormonism teaches is that God. used to be a man on another world. And he followed the laws and the ordinances of that God on that planet, on that world. and he was married And he was exalted to godhood because he was so good. Yeah.

And he brought his wife, resurrected her, brought her forth. And then he created this world. He and she are married and in the Preexistence. They have. Let's just say spirit babies, spirit offspring.

They're married in heaven. He has a body of flesh and bones, and he's about six feet tall. don't know how tall she is, but that's what I've read in Mormon sources.

So There's a bunch of spirits born between God and his goddess wife.

Now, you've got to understand, however, there's something called eternal intelligences. which these intelligences have always existed, and they are moved through the marriage facility of God and His goddess wife from heaven. And then they become, let's just say, pre-existent spirits.

Now they need to enter human bodies on earth.

So God The first one born of God and His Goddess wife was Jesus. the preincarnate Christ, and then the devil was born, some say right second, but he was he wasn't fallen yet, and but some say that he was second, some say he wasn't. But nevertheless, we were all born as pre existent spirit children to God and his goddess wife.

So, the name of God in Mormonism is Elohim, which is simply the Hebrew word for God, and the name of Jesus in the preexistence or how He works is Jehovah.

So they separate God, Elohim, the word, from the name of God. and make a huge mistake there. There needed to be a plan of salvation offered and to work in our realm.

So there was a plan, let's just say, and Satan wanted all the glory, and everybody would be saved. And Jesus said the Father would be glorified, and not everybody would be saved. That's the basics.

So. God the Father went with Jesus Plan. The preexistent spirits that agreed with Jesus and the father, Now this is what they taught in the eighteen hundreds, their prophets. What they taught was Those spirits, when they're born in human bodies, are born in white-skinned bodies. There was a third that did that.

A third of the of the spirits did not side with Jesus, but sided with the devil's plan. They're cursed to never be born in human bodies and they're demonic forces. The third that didn't go either way were cursed to be born in black-skinned bodies. This is what the prophets taught.

Now, they don't officially teach that now, but that's just what they used to teach.

Okay?

So anyway Wait. Oh, yeah, dead series. And so, I got so much I could tell you about Mormonism. And so, after you become a good Mormon, You have to pay 10% tithe of your income to the church. It's got to be documented.

You then get what's called a temple recommend. We're going to get a break here in a little bit. I'm going to take a break, and I'll continue afterwards. And I'll tell you all kinds of stuff. You get a temple recommended, and you go into the temple.

Nothing kinky or weird happens in there. But they're given white garments to wear through their ceremony.

Now, we've got a break coming up.

So hold on. And he'll be right back. I'll continue. There's quite a bit more to tell you, all right? And then we'll tell you how to witness to them and stuff.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Will from Pennsylvania. You still there? Yes, sir. All right.

Now After you become a good Mormon, you get a ten percent tithe of your income, you get the temple ceremony, you're able to go there. They go in there, they have uh these white garments they're supposed to put on, and they change into those garments. They go through the temple in different rooms that different things happen. There's a presentation of the plan of salvation, a narrative of the creation of the world. I'm looking in my notes here.

Adam and Eve are introduced, Satan enters the scene, etc. And there are need for redemption explained. Participants make a bunch of covenants, and all this is done by film.

Now, Years and years and years and years ago, Chuck and Dolly Sackett, they came out of Mormonism, and I met them and spoke with them and at a conference in particular. And This has been confirmed by others as well.

So, when the Mormons get their temple garments, they are also given a green fig leaf apron.

Okay.

And it's about, and I've got one buried in one of the boxes. People gave me this. And it's about, I remember correctly, about 10 inches by 10 inches square. And there's a a sash or uh kind of a Not a cord, but you tie it around the back. And this 10 by 10 inch, roughly 10 by 10, don't quote me on that exactly, flap goes over the groin area.

but you don't put it on yet. They had the white garments, And So many things, I'll skip stuff. Anyway, they go into a room where a presentation is. Produced or given, it's filmed. Actors are there, and there's an actor playing the devil, and Jesus, and a preacher, and God the Father, and things like that.

And the devil makes a deal with a preacher if you teach that God is without body, parts, and passions. And that grace is free. Salvation is a free gift. You know, I'll pay you. And so this is what the Mormons are told.

Trinitarian people who teach that Jesus died for all of our sins and that He's enough. We don't have to add works. That's demonic, they're taught.

Now, there's an inquiry that occurs. Oh, yeah, there's an inquiry that occurs. And Satan is wearing a fig-leafed apron. It's the same, that's what I've been told, it's the same as the one given to the participants. But it's a different colour.

So it's fig-leafed, but different color. A dark blue of her dark black, blackish, dark gray of her, but it's really dark. I think it's Adam who says, What's that apron you are wearing? This is in the film. And he says it's a symbol of my power and priesthood.

The film stops. and the Mormons are told to put on their green aprons. They're green fig leaf vapours.

Now I asked Dolly Chuck and Dolly Sackett. They have since passed away. And I said, wait a minute. Let me get this straight. Are you telling me?

That The question is asked, What is this? My symbol priesthood and powers. And then the Mormons are told to put on their fig leaf apron. He goes, Yeah. I asked them three times.

He says, I need to ask this again. And then they said, Yes. I said, I need to ask it a third time. I actually did it. Three separate times.

And I said, you have got to be kidding me. And they said no. He said now Chuck and Dolly Sackett were temple workers. They were I think for twenty seven years or something like that, twenty five years in the temple. They knew every nook and cranny of that ceremony by memory.

They wrote it all out. And presented it.

Now it's been changed since then because it's a sacred ceremony. They've altered it. There's a blood oath you take that if you reveal what goes on in there, you're going to be killed. Seriously.

Now they took that out. Oh yeah.

So Now So, Joseph Smith said, and this is what started. I'm just going to go on, I'm going to tell you about this. Joseph Smith made a statement. I'm going to quote it to you. And this literally This quote is what changed my life.

And Charlie Spine, who is sitting there, I'm looking at him. He does work with me during a radio show and stuff. And we've known each other since 1980, give or take a year. I think it's 1979 or 1980. It doesn't matter.

We're at a Bible study. I didn't know who this guy was. And he said, hey, Matt. Um Look at this. I don't know who this guy was, Charlie, you know.

And I said, Well, what? He goes, Read this. And I did. In all these affidavits, in all these indictments, it is all the devil, all corruption, you false swears, all hell boil over, you burning mountains, roll down your lava, for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man has.

I've done more to keep at church together since the days of Adam. Neither John, Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did such work as I. It angered me so much that I ripped the paper out of this guy's hand whom I only met the week before. I said, who said this? And he said, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism.

And I said to him, Mormons are Christians. Why would he say this? And he said, they're not Christians. I said, Yes, they are and he goes, No, they're not. And that's I started studying.

And Jerry and Marion Bodine, who worked with Walter Martin at the Christian Research Institute in Southern California, where we both used to live. And I studied with them for years. Anyway, so here's the thing. He boasted he did more than Jesus.

Well, within a month he was dead.

Now he was murdered, but And part of the reason they think there's speculation. is that uh he had been a mason. And he had disclosed some secret Masonic rituals and incorporated them in the temple ceremony. And that's why they were they killed him. He was shot, and he killed uh two people and shot a a third.

a gun was smuggled in. I'm not justifying saying he shouldn't have done that. He had a right to defend himself, I get it. But uh he said, uh is there no help for the widow's son? which is a a Masonic uh cry of distress.

It the implication is he saw. people uh there.

Now I can get into the Book of Mormon stuff. There's lots of problems there, but I'm going to skip ahead. then Brigham Young becomes the leader. They take he takes the Mormons and they go to Utah. And they get settled in Utah.

Down south in Utah, there's a place called Mountain Meadows.

Now, Bill McKeever, he's an expert on Mormonism. He's a friend of mine. I've known him, I don't know, 30 years or so, 35 years, whatever. And So he's probably number two in the world. An expert is Mormonism.

Sandra Tanner, I know Sandra, she's number one in the world. She's still around, and any rate.

So, Bill took me to To the Mountain Meadows massacre site. And this is what happened. It's 9-11. september eleventh, eighteen fifty seven, I think it was. Yeah.

About 12. 30, whatever. uh people were going through the the ch the wagon train. They were traveling in a wagon train from the east through into California. And Long story short, they ended up in the territory of the Mormon area.

And in Utah before it was a state. And there were some jerks, morons in the wagon train called the Missouri Wildcats. And if Bill, if you're listening, because sometimes Bill listens to me in Salt Lake City radio show, as you can call me up, Bill, and fix stuff, make it perfect. He knows he knows everything. And Eric Johnson, he's also a world-level expert on Mormonism.

Either one, call me up, and we can talk about it. But at any rate, If they're listening and they feel like calling. And so. The uh the wagon trainers were running out of food, running out of supplies, running out of ammo. They were in a circle while the Mormons were attacking them because these Missouri wildcats inside of the wagon train said they had the gun that killed Joseph Smith.

And when we get back, I'll tell you what happened.

Okay, so hold on. There's a break. Hey, folks, be right back after these messages. Please, stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. Will, are you still there? Yes, sir. Okay, I know I'm giving you a lot, but I'm going to continue and then I'll tell you some witnessing.

Okay, witnessing techniques and stuff.

So the Missouri Wildcats said that they had the gun that killed Joseph Smith, not a smart thing to do. And the Mormons were quite upset with it.

Now the Mormons and the local Indians at the time were working together. And Brigham Young was up north in the Salt Lake City area, and he had been teaching a doctrine called blood atonement, where It it meant that in order to have all of your your sins forgiven, there are two sins excuse me, there are two sins that you had to have your own blood shed to forgive, adultery and murder. That the only way to be atoned by that is to have your own blood shed.

So this is the blood atonement doctrine that he was teaching. And so He uh Back when the wagon train thing was happening, down south, they sent a runner on a horse up to Salt Lake to say, what do we do with these guys? And it looks like Brigham Young said, let them go. It looks like that's what what happened. But the war didn't get back in time.

So the The wagon trainers were um We're out of basically out of supplies and ammo. But the Mormons didn't know that. Uh but they made a deal anyway. That they'll lay down their arms and be escorted out of the valley by the Mormons. And the Mormons instructed the Indians.

on our signal. You kill the women. And some of the men. We'll kill the men. and leave the children under seven years of age alive.

So they did. and it killed about 124 men, women and children. Murdered him. On 9-11. And They then took they stripped the bodies.

took the clothes. Took the valuables, and the kids under seven, that was the intention, because that's the age of accountability.

So they took the children back and took care of them. And then They had a barn where they put all the Stuff. Wagoners. Wagoners. and quitting clothing.

And it became so bad in decay that they burned the the bar the the barn down. And then the relatives of the slain children. then came out to collect our children, you know, months later. And the Mormons charged them. Room and board.

And there was a group called the Danites. The Danites were hitmen, used by Brigham Young. And Brigham Young would say, use them up, boys. And what that phrase meant was go take care of that person. and that person disappeared.

And The Danites would come back with gold teeth, gold watches and things like that. When I was witnessing to Mormons a lot down in Southern California. I brought this up to a Mormon missionary once, and he was so upset with me. because I was answering everything he said. And he was a big guy.

He almost had a swing at me, and I saw his jaw quiver. His mouth is quiet, just tense. And I said, and the Danites, blah, blah, blah. And he looked at me. And he said, We know who you are.

And the Danites are still around. You better be careful. That's what he told me.

So that was a death threat. Yeah, it's a death threat.

So, is it just one guy just blowing steam or just saying something stupid? I don't know.

So they needed someone to blame. For the massacre. And uh I forgot the name of the who did is he who did they blame Danites Mountain Meadows. I'll get his name here, but he was the adopted son of of uh Brigham Young. And they, John D.

Lee, thank you. That's right. It was John D. Lee that they. They executed.

They said he was the henchman who led all this. And there's actually an actual photo of him sitting on his coffin. before they shot him and he fell back into the coffin.

So Mormonism teaches that you're saved by grace through faith after all that you can do. 2 Nephi 25, 23 and Moroni 10, 23. 1020. Oh man, it's been a long time. 2 Nephi 25, 23, and Rhoni 10:20.

Oh, my goodness, it's been so long. Um. Moroni ten twelve. In Moroni 10. It says that you have to deny yourself of all ungodliness.

Because if you deny yourself this of all ungodliness, then is God's grace sufficient.

Okay.

So, salvation is based in works. Romania 10:32. That's where it's found.

Okay, now. This is what you're up against in Mormonism. There is no spirit there. There is no Holy Spirit. What they do.

Is they have ritual. They have pattern, they have testimony. You should go to a Mormon church. Ask them to go. Ask if you can go.

Go check it out. It's really informative. They're not evil people. They're not going to brainwash you. They're really nice and they're very helpful.

And they really are. They're good folks.

Okay, this believe in a false God, false Christ, false gospel. Yeah. But I recommend you go there on a Sunday. Don't witness to them. Don't start any trouble.

Just go see what you're doing, which is very helpful. to people to know what you're what what you're up against, so to speak. All right.

In Mormonism, salvation can mean universal resurrection. And it could also mean forgiveness of sins. But they deny all cults deny justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

So, you have to do good works in combination with what Jesus did on the cross in order to be saved. But in Mormonism, Jesus is the brother of the devil. And you and I in a preexistence.

So they have a false Christ. They don't believe in the Trinity, but when you say Trinity to them, they'll say, Yes, we affirm a Trinity. But what they mean is a triad. They redefine words. They'll say, Trinity is three gods, Jesus is the brother of the devil, salvation, universal resurrection.

That's by grace.

So, if you use those terms, they'll agree with you and you'll be confused.

Well, you believe in the Trinity? Yeah. Oh, interesting. I thought Matt Slick said they don't. You have to use definitions.

Do you believe there's one God who exists and only one God in all places and all time? No gods before him, no gods after him, that he has eternally been God? They can't say yes to that because that's not Mormon theology. Do you believe that the forgiveness of sins is by faith alone, in Christ alone, who died on that cross? They can't say yes to that either.

Because in Mormonism, the atonement occurred, began in the Garden of Gethsemane when he was sweating blood. Salvation in Mormonism. is compliance with the laws and the ordinances of the Mormon Church. You had to go to the temple.

So that you can Hopefully. Learn the handshakes and hugs you need because you got to learn those in the temple because you got to shake hands with God in the afterlife. Remember, he's six feet tall. And there's a veil in the temple that you put your hand through and you shake hands with s a a proxy, a guy who's there. And on their temple garments, they're the same symbols.

Are on their temple garments that are on that veil with a slit in the pattern of those symbols that you put your hand through and you shake hands. That means you've been a good Mormon. You got the temple. Ceremony and the truth.

So you can be ha the potential is to become a god of your own planet. You have to keep celestial law and you start the process all over again.

So When you witness to Mormons, use definitions. You can say Trinity as long as you define it, salvation as long as you define it. And be gentle with them because these young men just generally are very ill equipped. to handle any serious theological discussion. I'm not insulting them.

They're just not very aware of a lot of stuff. And that's just how it is. They're risking a lot and taking two years out of their lives to go do this, and that's admirable. but don't expect them to know much. And I've twisted them into knots so easily before.

It's not a boast, it's just that they just don't know stuff. And so they don't know how to answer things like, where's your God come from? Where's the line of progression start at? Or is it eternal? Oh, I don't know.

And things like this, they just don't know because they don't think that deeply. I'm not knocking them, I'm not mocking them, I'm just saying it's just what it is. They're good guys. And Mormons are great. You know, if I were to argue with a Mormon and he didn't like me and he said, Well, we need to go, and I stepped off the curb and got hurt, they'd come back and help.

Those are the kind of guys they are.

Alright, so that's not the issue. The issue is. They're believing in a false God, false Christ, false gospel.

So you need to be praying. Because when they come into your home, they're also going to be bringing with them demonic forces. Just pray. and ask God to cover the house. and to bless them.

that they would have their eyes opened. and that they would leave the false doctrines of that false system. of Mormonism. And come to the truth, and that you be used in spite of yourself. That's all what I always ask, Lord, please use me in spite of me, you know, and that you would somehow, some way, by God's grace, speak truth to them.

and that the Holy Spirit would witness to them. In this, okay? Hold on, brother. I know it's been a long time with you, but it's worth it. And we'll get back to you after the break.

You can comment, then we'll get to the next. Oh, you got another guy waiting. It's no big deal. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All Rod everyone, welcome back to the show. Hope you enjoyed that bit about Mormonism and Will.

Okay, we're back. There you go, buddy. You're Okay. Got any comments?

Okay.

honestly, there's a lot of information to pick in. I didn't realize just how a lot. how dark their background was. Almost almost unlike um Oh. Jim Jones and that whole cultic movement.

Yeah, another thing is Joseph Smith had over 30 wives and Brigham Young had over 50. Uh You can always tell when a man starts a cult: women, money, power. You say Brigham Young. Is that the same I'm assuming that's the same Brigham Young BYU university? Right.

He's the second what they call the second prophet of the Mormon church. He's the one who took over the LDS church when uh Brigham Young when Joseph Smith was murdered.

Okay.

These are. Illusion.

Okay.

Yeah, and I've been to the to the uh the it's called the Bee House, I think it is. Uh in uh Salt Lake City uh and and toured in it and uh You know, like Bill McKeever lives in the area, and he runs, just so you know, if you want really good information. I've written a lot on Mormonism, I know it, but he's the expert. And when I have questions, I go to Bill or Eric. And uh their website is Mormonism Research Ministry, MRM.

Yeah, so it's not a very important thing. MRM, Mormonism Research Menu.org. And uh they're fantastic. They do a fantastic job. And he's uh he's just both of them exceedingly knowledgeable.

And they have a center in Salt Lake City, the Utah Christian Center or something like that. I've been there a few times. Anyway. I saw well. Yeah, it's pretty fascinating, isn't it?

It really is. That really is. And Preferred to Two young girls better than becoming older. Older girls, okay. All right.

By the way, guess where the Garden of Eden is, according to Joseph Smith? It's in Missouri. Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, okay.

Okay.

Yeah. I've been there. But too. been to uh the Garden of Eden in Missouri. Yeah, walked around.

It's like What? Have you ever heard the phrase phony's a three-dollar bill? You ever heard that phrase? Oh, yes. Yes, I have.

Yeah, Joseph Smith, he invented the $3 bill because he was trying to be a king and do some other stuff. Oh, yeah, people don't know. They do not know. Mormons do not know. Their history has been polished.

The Book of Mormons has been changed thousands of times. Alter it thousands of alterations in it. Oh, yeah, there's so many ways to prove it's false. Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father in a vision.

Well, the Bible says you can't see God the Father. 1 Timothy 6:16. Jesus says, No one's ever seen the Father, nor can. In John 6:46. They're seeing the pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament.

They call it God the Father, and Joseph Smith, the Father. No, he didn't. Yeah, he was a he was a complete charlatan. And the first anti-Mormon book written was called Um Mormonism Unveiled by E. W.

Howe, H O W E written in, I think, eighteen thirty four. Have a copy of it someplace. And in there are sworn affidavits from judges, ministers, people before judges and ministers about the Joseph Smith family. and he was involved in the occult. and money digging.

And um they wrote that they wouldn't trust him at all. They wouldn't trust him. The family were con artists. This is what, and I can tell you so much more. There's so much more I can tell you, but I don't want to keep going and going and going, but there's so much.

Okay.

So let me show you how to witness to him. Let me tell you something, okay? Try this. You with me? You ready?

Okay?

Alright. You start off this on the same foot with them. that they want what you want. ultimately to have her sins forgiven. And they'll say, yeah, that's right.

He's you want that too. You can ask him, how do you get your sins forgiven? And just let him talk.

Well, you have to do this, you have to do that.

Okay.

And don't jump on them like a monkey in a cupcake and rip them apart. Just be patient, okay? and say and you have your Bible and you can use theirs to use the King James. And it's good to have verses memorized, and you can go to where Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18. And um where they prayed to Jesus.

Okay, like Stephen did. in Acts 7, 55 through 60. Where Jesus says, ask, and the King James asked me, ask. Ask anything in my name and I will do it. And so he's the one who is Forgiving sins, and I you ask him if you want your sins forgiven and he has all authority, shouldn't you go to Jesus?

for forgiveness of sins? And they'll say, Well, yeah.

Well, doesn't that mean you can pray to him? And they ask him to forgive you? But you're not supposed to pray to Jesus.

Some Mormons do, but they're not supposed to. But the idea is to get them to go straight to Christ and receive Christ as their Savior. But then you gotta work on Well, did God come to under the world? Does he have a goddess wife? Are they married?

And all this stuff, and you can see how convoluted it all gets. It becomes quite fascinating actually. Mormism is a fascinating religion. He really has. Wow.

See, you didn't know what you were getting into when you called Not at all, not at all. Yeah. You could tell. I mean, the most I know about them is that they believe in the law of progression, what God. Right.

What God was, man is. What God is, man can become. Yeah, Lorenzo Snow Couplet, that's called. Yep. And so they can become gods.

And uh it's pride. You know, it's And who's the first one who said you could be like God? It was a devil. You'll be like God knowing good and evil. That's the devil who said that.

In Genesis 3. Just do it. Yeah. Said her ta Eve. Yeah, you'll be like God.

And um So there's other ways you can witness to them. And I know a particular way that really messes them up fast. But you got to spend a little money to do it. And, you know, I'll say this because others are out there, you may be listening. What you do is you get the Nestle Allen Greek New Testament with the textual apparatus.

So you can go on Amazon. And you can look up Greek New Testament. Nestle, like Nestle Crunchbar, right? Nestle Crunch bar, the candy bar. Nestle Alice.

Not Nestle Crunch bar, but Nestle is one of the words. And look f and you want to find it that has the textual variants. on the bottom of the page. That's all. It's in Greek, it's a Greek New Testament.

You don't need to read Greek, but the numbers are in English. And what you could do is just go write the Gospel of John up there. You know where John is, or Matthias in Greek, and you could write them up there at the pages, or you don't have to do that, but the point is. It shows the textual variations of the New Testament documents. There's like 6,000 documents, and this New Testament just shows what they are.

And then you go to, you find the book, The 3913 Changes in the Book of Mormon. And Gerald and Sandra Tanner did this back in the sixties. when they had an original Book of Mormon. I mean the first printing, they had one. And um Let's just say I've held a very first edition in my hands also.

So je uh Sander told me that she and her husband, he's passed away since, they went through the nineteen sixty four, sixty six edition of the Book of Mormon with the original Book of Mormon, and then they they found the the changes. And you can buy this called the 3913 Changes in the Book of Mormon. And usually I don't know if where it's in their website still anymore, but see if you can find it someplace. The reason is because it has a photographed presentation of the original Book of Mormon. With the handwritten notes in there, with lines and stuff encircled, this word added, that word removed, this paragraph, this, this, that, that.

And the reason. It's so powerful that I've done this with missionaries so many times, and I've been told that missionaries have left their missions and gone home after seeing this and some other things I've said to them. I was told this in Southern California. I used to meet him all the time. Awesome.

So what I would do is I would Go through the New Testament. And I'd say, hey, look, you don't need to read Greek. You know, I can read a sentence or two for you to hear how it sounds. But look, just randomly flip through the New Testament and you'll see that the bottom and you see the like, you know, John 3:18, it might have a textual variant there. And you can go through and you can count them, like on, and it'll have two pages left and right.

You say, look, how many is here? You know, four. Two. One, zero, things like that. You take this 3,913 changes in the Book of Mormon, you fan through it, and you just ask them: say, stop.

Stop, boom. You count how many variants? you know, twelve, fifteen. go another page. Eight, ten, go another page.

Goes on and on. And I said, Now look. The New Testament's two thousand years old. and the Book of Mormon is two hundred years old. Why is it that the Book of Mormon has so many more changes in it than the New Testament as textual variants?

And yet, it's in History of the Church, Volume 4, page 461. It's the most correct book of any book on earth that a man can get closer to the precepts of God by following it than by any other book.

So, why is it so changed? They do not know what to do with it. It just messes them up because they have a testimony that the book of Mormon is true. And then you're showing has been altered. It it destroys them.

Okay.

They wanted to destroy him, but Yeah. All right.

Okay.

Three over three thousand whole caps.

Well there's more. Santa told me there's over a hundred No, she yeah, this is 1830 edition, I think it is. She told me there's more than 100,000. But some of them are just punctuation errors and maybe a misspelling of a word, whatever. But there's some very significant problems.

If you go to my website, look up Mormonism, and you look at the changes in the Book of Mormon, you can see some of them. They're documented, and I mean serious alterations, major. Yep. It's like jumping into a deep well of Mormonism, all the stuff about it. I haven't even told you about the Hans Mill massacre.

I haven't told you about the doctrine and covenants, how it's been altered. I haven't told you about the Book of Abraham papyri. Manuscript that Joseph Smith had. from an Egyptian um guy back in back in the day before he died. And how it proves The Book of Mormon's false.

proves it. Because then I can take dots and stuff. There's ways. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

At least now I feel a little better equipped though for tomorrow, at least for the basic general discussion. Can you get actually invited me to the church?

Well, yeah, go go, yeah. And they're nice people. They really are. They're good people.

Alright, I'll help you. But, you know, go and check it out and go with your wife if you're married, I don't know, and I think you said you were, and just see how it goes. And and you won't get spiritual cooties or anything like that. You'll be fine. But it'll really help you understand how to witness to them more compassionately.

because they need that compassion and that love.

Okay.

Absolutely. All right, brother. Let me know how it goes when you go. Call me back up and say and tell me your ex your impressions. That's all, just come in your impressions.

Lo I'd love to hear it, okay? Right, absolutely. Hallelujah. Sure.

Okay.

Well, we're out of time. Ten seconds, fifteen seconds, and music starts. We gotta go. The end of the show, all right? Thank you very much, though.

I greatly appreciate it. You're welcome, brother. God bless. All right.

Call back, okay. Oh, sorry about that, cut him off. And uh The music's starting, and may the Lord bless you. And yeah, that's Mormonism. That's what got me started in studying them, is what got me started in apologetics and doing all this stuff.

back in the day. Thanks, Charlie Spine, for reading that quote. God used him. See, God uses all kinds of broken and corrupted and weird and wonky people. Just set us straight.

He's nodding right now with a smile.

Okay, God bless everybody. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Another program powered by the Truth Network.