Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick.

And you're listening to Matt Slick live. If you want, as usual, you can give me a call. It is E-Z-8-7-7-2-0-7-2-2-7-6. Pretty easy. If you want to email me, you can do that too. All I can do is send an email to info at KARM.org, info at C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. And we can get to those, put in the subject line, radio comment, radio question, something like that. And then we'll get to them. You know, we get them usually on Fridays.

Sometimes we do them during the week, but usually on Fridays. All right, let's just jump straight in. Jermaine, welcome, buddy. Hey, Jermaine, you're on the air, ma'am.

Hi, Matt. I wanted to ask a question about the cults, the Jones Witnesses and the Mormons and the other various cults. Of course, I disagree with a lot of their doctrine, but I have always been impressed by some of the ways they assimilate information. I was wondering, how can believers do the same? Not, of course, believing in cultic doctrine, but it seems like these people are completely, just completely enamored with everything that they study.

So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that as a teacher. Well, the reason is because they don't do that unless they are enamored. It's like if you have 100 people and you have a cult going, maybe one person might believe what's going on and be the personality type that will go out and do stuff. And so that cult will only absorb those kinds of people.

And that's why they do what they do. In Christianity, what's taught a lot on the pulpits isn't much along the lines of what you might want to call discipleship. And the cost of discipleship is not something that brings people into churches. And so the issue of becoming a Christian is one thing, but living as a Christian and being disciple makers, maybe going door-to-door, maybe being missionary, supplying money to someone who goes to seminary, supporting those who do varying works and different outreaches, these generally aren't things that are taught very much.

So we don't see that much. But the cults, they go door-to-door, they do their thing. And the people who rise to the occasion, I should say, to use that term, rise loosely, they are the ones who will continue to do other things. And so that's just what happens.

It's unfortunate, you know? Right, and I know with a lot of the Mormon church aid, because I had some in-laws and some people were affiliated with that, and they had some of the kids go on at like six in the morning to their version of a seminary. And I don't think that's always necessary, but just curious what, I guess it depends on the church you go to, what kind of teaching is going on, because I see a lot of people just kind of falling away, and they feel like they've never learned anything. But I don't know, I guess it depends on the church.

You know, you got me thinking about something I've thought about over the years many, many, many times. Now, I used to be a pastor for a short time, about two years, assistant pastor and pastor, maybe three years, I don't know, so long ago, back in the 90s. And my experience with people is, with Christians, is that, how do I say this?

A lot of Christians don't want their boat rocked, and I've experienced this full force personally. And over the years, I love preaching. I haven't preached in a year or two, I guess, and I love to preach.

I love being there and being able to present God's word. And so, as I've said before, in illustration, let's say there's a church that has a thousand people in it, and they say, Matt, we want you to fill in for the summer, or fill in for one year, while the pastor goes on sabbatical, whatever it is. But we want you to preach whatever you want to preach, the way you want to preach it.

And in this Twilight Zone scenario, I'd say, well, okay, be willing to do that, but you're going to lose a lot of people. One, a different preacher, people like different styles. But when I preach, and I'm saying I'm great, or something like this, it's not about me, I'm just saying, the issues that I think are important, most Christians don't think are important.

That's the impression I get. So I would be preaching exegetically from Scripture, and including, wherever necessary, related to the Scripture, certain doctrinal statements, and dissertation, but a little two, three minute, this is what this means, this is why this is this, this is that. And the texts, particularly in the New Testament, is full of, you need to learn these things.

You need to know these things. And the ultimate purpose is for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. That's what Paul the Apostle tells us that the prophets, the apostles, evangelists, the pastors and teachers are there for. And so I wonder if a pastor started doing that, taking it very seriously, how many would stay? Because if I were a pastor of a church, and all I had to do was preach and teach, if I did everything else, it would be fine with me.

I would have a Wednesday night Bible study, maybe a Thursday night study, a Wednesday night is generic, Thursday is heavy and deeper stuff. Preaching on a Sunday is for the Christian, it's not for evangelism, and people don't realize this. So anyway, with these kinds of things, would such a church grow?

Not that growth means it's successful or not successful or good or bad, but it's something I've always wondered, what would Christians want? And I've found over the years, they don't seem to really want what Christ wants in a lot of areas. I just get a lot of lackadaisical stuff.

Not always, you know, you know what I'm saying? I agree, I've seen that in churches growing up, and the current church I go to now is a little more reformed, and we love to study the Word, which is why I love your ministry, but I find that a lot of people I invite, they're either too bored or not entertained enough, and it's usually one out of every ten that's interested in kind of coming back. I guess you kind of start to attract the people that are supposed to be there. Yes, interestingly, my wife says I'm a good preacher and that I'm interesting and not boring, which when a wife says that, it's like, are you okay? But I love to preach, I get excited in the pulpit and use a little humor occasionally in doctrine, this and that, and try and paint word pictures, and I just think preaching is a great privilege, and I miss it. But I go to churches locally, check them out, and I'm bored of tears.

I am just bored. The last church I went to, I won't say who or what, but I'm waiting for the sermon to start, and then after five minutes I realize, oh, he's in it already. He's in it. But he wasn't quoting scripture, and I'm like, what's going on?

And the place was packed, and I'm looking around, people are, it's packed. I go, but he didn't even go to the word. He's giving us an illustration of something, and then finally he quoted scripture, and I go, oh, so he's already preaching? I thought he was doing introduction stuff about things, and I couldn't believe it. And then the sermon was just ankle deep.

That was it. Barely got your feet wet, you know? It just, another thing has to be theological and all this stuff, but it was like there's more to the word than just a nice story and illustrations and generic talk. I'd like to be able to preach at a church where I just go in with the attitude, I don't care if you like it or don't like it, I'm preaching the word of God. I'm going to preach for the best of what I think it is.

There's a door if you don't like it. Stay if you do. It's up to you, and I'm not concerned with that. My goal is to glorify God and equip the Christians. I'm going to do the best of my ability.

That's what I want to do. Oh, I'd love to do that, but anyway, I'm just, I'm rambling, you know, rambling. Well, you know, I think you hit on something. That's why I see a lot of what I see in churches.

Yeah, you're looking in the back. That's okay. Yeah, and so I've talked to a lot of people who've had the same attitude, that they find church to be just shallow and not very deep. And, you know, one of the things, I'm just rambling here, I remember, I went to a church to check it out. There were some good things about it. And of all the texts that the pastor could use, he actually went to Colossians 1, excuse me, Colossians 3, 1 through 4, and I was, my eyes bugged out.

I'm like, no way. That is such a rich section of scripture. And since we've got no callers, let me read this to you. I'll tell you, this is what the scripture was. You know, therefore, if you've been raised up with Christ, wow, the resurrection, you have been raised up. What does that mean?

What's going on? How have you been raised up? Well, how have you been crucified, too? It says, keep seeking the things above where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. There's three sermons right there. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things of the earth. What does that mean, and how do you get into what are the things above, what are the things of the earth? And if you, for you have died, your life is hidden with Christ and God. There's federal headship in there, representation. There's the issue of your death, when it occurred.

What does that have ramifications for? The law, your obligations to serve God. You know, all this stuff. And then verse 4, when Christ, who is our life, is revealed, wow, my goodness, Christ is revealed, right? And when he comes back, it says, then you'll also be revealed with him in glory. Oh, man, there's so much there. There's so much in these four verses. And I ended up walking out of the sermon halfway through because he wasn't even getting into it.

He was hardly, you know, and, you know, you've got to do good things, and you've got to be nice, and blah, blah, blah. Geez. And I just left.

Never went back. It's frustrating. You know, it's frustrating. Yeah, well, you know, honestly, I think you need to put a little bit more online. I think you'll start to get your audience, because, you know, you've got one here, and I know there's others out there. There's people that are unaware of what good preaching actually is, and, you know, grounded in the Word.

Yeah. I'm not saying I'm a good preacher, but people have asked me to just preach into the camera and just put a sermon out and let everybody have it they want, whatever. Maybe they'll do that.

Maybe they won't. I don't know. I just remembered, though, this one church I had gone to, and they're playing Hillsong music mixed in, and come on, they're heretics. Hillsong group is a heretical group, and people have talked to the pastor about it, and they still have these things in there. You know, I've got to find a church, so I go, I'm listening, and the pastor's okay. Then they had this young guy get on and get up and preach. I'm thinking, oh, man, you know, this one Sunday I didn't know he was going to be here. Oh, my goodness, he nailed it. He was awesome.

I was like, it wasn't like a dissertation, a seminary level, but he just, he went into the Word, and he brought in a couple of doctrinal points, which it's right there relevant, and then he brought it on home, and then he focused on the cross. This is why we do these things. I'm like, who is this guy?

He was great. So they're out there. They're out there. You know? I'm just whining, whining a little bit today, you know? Not at all. Not at all.

It's good whining. I appreciate it. Yeah. I think the last time I preached was at Laura's church in Utah in Provo.

Last time I preached was about a year ago, I think. Anyway, that's it. So I'm just rambling. I call it ramblation. Just ramble.

Just ramble. You know what? A part of what you do, though, is part of what attracted people to your ministry. So, you know, it's not just the debate.

It's the knowledge that's behind it. Well, you know, by God's grace, that's all. So, you know, he gets all the glory. But, hey, there's a break, but you've got to go. So talk to you later, man. All right.

God bless you. All right. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We have nobody waiting, so give me a call. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everyone, welcome to the show. Welcome back after the break.

If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. We have one open line now. Let's get to Rusty.

Rusty from South Carolina. Welcome. You're on the air. Yes.

Say hello. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

So I just want to feel like I'm the only one. So, like, when you're reading a Bible and when Jesus speaks and the things he do and his actions, do you think you can tell when it's the man talking or when it's God the Son talking? I feel like I can at some time from some of the things he said.

Well, I sure understand. And when he said, when I sing my soul to you, Father, was that the Holy Spirit you were sending back to God? No. When he's praying to the Father, he's praying to the Father. Right.

When he was on the cross. Right. Father, forgive them.

Yeah, he's addressing God the Father. Yes. Okay. And then when you said, back to you, I said my soul. No, to you, I commit my spirit. Yes, yes. Was that the Holy Spirit he was talking about? No. He's talking about himself.

To the Father, he commits himself. Okay? Mm-hmm. That's it. Right. Okay. So, like, when he was talking to Mary, like, at the cross, when he said, woman, behold your son, and told him to hold his mother, like, things like that. And then at the Gethsemane, when he was crying, when he was scared, that seemed like that was the man part of him. Oh.

And then God came. Okay. Well, we've got to be careful. We don't want to make an error called Nestorianism. Right. Okay.

And what that error is is that Jesus, who has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, that each one operates at different times and speaks at different times. And we don't want to do that. That's bad news. We say that Jesus... Okay.

I didn't know that. Thank you. Yeah. Jesus is one person.

Right. And he speaks as one person each time he speaks and every time he speaks. But the attributes of his natures are described to that one person. So he says, I am thirsty. I'll be with you always. The same I, the same person.

And that's who he is. Okay. We call this the Hypostatic Union. We've got to get away from what's called Nestorianism, which you were kind of hinting at inadvertently and just letting you know. Okay. All right. Yeah. No, no. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

So, okay. So when he said, in my hand, I see in my spirit, that was him as a man. And your hands are committed.

Yes, to your hands. Yeah. I was talking to the father. And then when he said I have to leave, like when he preached for 40 days after he rose the third day, and he said he would leave, but he would not leave us as orphans. Right.

He said he would have to leave, and then the Holy Spirit would come. Right. So, okay. Okay. So the Holy Spirit is, I know they three different persons and one God. Right. I understand that.

So, okay. So when he went to hell, when he died on the cross to get the keys, he went there as his spirit or as God. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. He went to hell to get the keys? Is that what you said? Like he minister in hell, right? Well, hold on, hold on.

You said to get the keys. It sounds to me like he might be- From life to death. It sounds to me like you might have been listening to people like Kenneth Copeland or Joyce Meyer or some other- Oh, wow.

Bad teachers. Maybe. Yeah, he didn't get the keys in hell. He didn't do that. He didn't go to hell at the bad place. Hell is just simply called the grave. Right. And so one of the creeds mentions it that way.

But there's different theories about what happened during that interim. Uh-huh. But he didn't go down there and get any keys or anything like that, okay? Oh, minister, he didn't minister?

No, no, no, no. It depends what you mean by minister, to help them out, to do things. What he did, one of the theories is that he went down there where Paradise was and brought the people from Paradise up into heaven because he had been crucified, his blood had been shed, so the cleansing, the atonement had occurred, so he went and got them at that point and brought them up to heaven. Oh, I did not know that. And what do they speak about that?

I didn't know that. Yeah, that's in Ephesians 4. This is one of the theories that's developed about this, Ephesians 4, okay?

Right, okay. Yeah, it says in verse 8, therefore it says, when he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives. He gave gifts to men. Now this expression, he ascended, what does it mean?

Except that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth. Okay. Uh, yes, sir. Okay, thank you. Okay, I'm going to read that tonight. Okay, thank you. You're welcome.

Hey, I love you, Leslie. I appreciate the correction. And okay, thank you. Okay, good. All right, brother. Well, God bless. All right. You too.

God bless. All right, bye. Okay, bye. All right, now let's see.

Next longest waiting is Mike from Ohio. Hey, Mike, welcome. You're on the air. Well, thank you.

Man, that was a great call. And the reason why I say that is, uh, it's, um, it's like, um, dirt getting in a, in a, um, pan with gold in it. You know what I mean? And you're, and you're swashing that dirt around and you're finding the gold and that's what he's doing. He's, he's getting the dirt out of it.

And, and I, I love your show and you get the dirt out of people and that's why I love the listen and that's why I, I, I, I told him in as much as I can, you literally swish it around and you get the dirt out of people and you show the gold. That's the truth. You know what I mean?

It's like, it's like a theological panning for gold show. There you go. Yeah.

Get rid of the dross. Right. Right. Right. And, and you know, we're all precious in God's sight. And, and, uh, you know, and that's why you guys. Well, you are. I know you want to serve. I think you're humbled.

No, I don't like humility. Yeah. I just think if God's got to use someone like me, it's pretty bad out there.

That's what I think. Well, it is bad out there, sir. I mean, you know, um, uh, I need more encouragement from you people like you and that's why I listen. And, um, it's not always easy out here. Um, uh, there, you got a devil coming at you all the different directions and I need the dirt out of me too.

You know what I mean? I need the dirt out of me. And that's why I turn in and listen and, uh, pay attention to what you have to say.

Cause you're an awesome person. Thank you. Call my wife.

Tell her how great I am. I need all the help I need. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Well that takes a lot of time there. You know, 38 years. I haven't figured that out yet, but you know, one thing real quick, man. I pray. We got a break coming up. Hold on, man. Hold on.

We got a break. Hold that thought. Okay. Thank you, sir. All right. Hold on.

Hey folks. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be back to Mike, then Joel, then Jay. So please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. I'm going to welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, you have to wait because there's no open lines. Let's get back on with Mike from Ohio. Okay, brother.

You're back on. Well, thank you. Um, I, you know, you were talking about a wife and how your wife appreciates you. Um, you know, I've been married 38 years and I don't know how she stuck. Yeah. I don't know how she stuck with me all that time.

Well, the emphasis is on the word stuck. Yeah. Yeah.

That's how I always bet. How you define it. Yeah. Uh, she, uh, stuck, um, she stayed with me because even with all my faults, you know, um, you have faults, you know, I'm pretty good. I tell my wife how great I am, but I don't think I am, you know, and it's, uh, it's wonderful to, um, have a wife that is, uh, stays with you, you know what I mean? Um, uh, I was blessed, uh, very blessed.

And then when you show her that appreciation, um, that you are blessed with her, um, she shows you more appreciation and that's the way it's, that's the way God wants it to happen. That's right. You know, you got to, you got to question anything you, you don't want to get to. No, no, I just had a comment about, you know, I was going to comment about, um, you know, churches, um, and, and that, um, I think really you're, you hit it head on.

Um, we need to refine people and, and, and get them back to, you know, uh, find the gold in them and then, then they can go out and preach the gospel to the unbelievers. You know what I mean? I really appreciate you. You're bringing that up. Yeah. Um, it's really getting hard for me. Yes.

It's merely really needed. I've been in the church all my life. I was a kid born again when I was six or seven years old and, and rededicated 13,000 times. You know what I mean? And, uh, and, uh, you know, and, uh, and I keep trying to keep, God keeps trying to refine me. You know what I mean? And, and I'm glad for him.

I'm glad he's there for me. You know? Yeah. Thank you, sir.

I don't want to take up your time. Yep. All right, brother. Well, God bless. God bless. Thank you.

All right. Well, now let's just jump over to Joel from Colorado. Joel, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey. Hi, Matt.

I feel like we're becoming friends now. Oh, it's you again. Hey. Okay.

Now I remember. You didn't take me that long this time. What do you got, buddy?

What's up? Uh, real, real quick. I wanted to apologize yesterday for interrupting. Um, I just wanted to hopefully have you understand, like, uh, first I was aware of the time, so there was a lot to, like, kind of push in there. And there was also a lag on this call, um, so sometimes I would, I would hear, like, a space in between you speaking, you know, for me to kind of interject, but then it came off as me interrupting because then it lagged over.

So that's kind of what happened yesterday. I didn't, you know, and you know, that kind of stuff. It's all right. It happens.

I kind of have to try to deal with them edwise. So. Okay.

No problem now. So what do you got, buddy? What's up? I have a question for you first, uh, and then, uh, after, after your answer, I was kind of curious, uh, if, if I could just go, go over my kind of, uh, perspective on it, but, um, what would you do if Christ was truly present in the Eucharist, the way that the Catholic church or that really apostolic church, um, says that he is? Well, here's the thing.

People, I'm not trying to be evasive, but people will ask me questions like this. And uh, those, one of the questions I was asked recently, what would you do if Jesus appeared to you and said that East Orthodox church was a true church? And my response was, what would you do if God said to you that a square is also a circle?

It's impossible. And I said, I don't, the point was I don't entertain things that the Bible negates as a possibility because then I'm going against what God has revealed. So I know that the East Orthodox Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist is unbiblical as well as illogical. So it would never happen that God, uh, that it's true.

Okay. It's an error. So do you believe that, I just call them the apostolic church just so I don't have to keep saying Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, do you think that they have had it wrong for since like a hundred eighty? No, they've never had it, uh, I don't believe from a hundred eighty D. Here's the thing is what I would suggest you do if you're interested in doing something like this is go to the Antinocene church fathers or, you know, pre, uh, pre, uh, Constantine and there's like 10 or so, you know, 10 or 15 church fathers, polycarp, you can go to, uh, I got a list of them anyway. Polycarp is one of them, you know, Clement and things like this and find out, did they hold to this position that it's actually the body and blood, but you see, there's problems here. Let's say you find one or two who did and the other ones didn't say anything. Well, then you don't have a unanimous source and that's a problem. And so if that's the case, then you have church fathers who disagree with each other on all kinds of things. And I've got quotes from different church fathers on the nature of the Eucharist.

Some affirm what the EO and the RC say and others don't. So it's a problem. The issue here is what does the scripture say? The scriptures do not affirm the position that you guys hold to. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

Okay. So, well, my paradigm, I suppose my perspective is that the Eucharist is the new manna from heaven, the new Passover, the new bread of the presence or like the showbread. So those, the, the manna, you know, is a prefigurement. Those were all types of like the Eucharist, um, of really of Christ, you know, cause I'm coming from the perspective that the Eucharist is Christ. So everything that the Eucharist says about himself, if he's present in the Eucharist, truly would also apply to the Eucharist.

Um, and I, but I believe with it being under the appearances of bread and wine that creates that continuity between, you know, Melchizedek, Passover lamb, you know, manna in the desert, all of those prefigurements are those types. And I don't, I don't see how just taking a spiritual or metaphorical or allegorical reading of that, um, has as much explanatory power as if you were to take it, uh, truly and literally. Well, I get what you're saying, uh, truly and literally, I can understand why they would say what they do. And I could, uh, argue that position, not believing it.

I could say, here's what they say, you know, steal man the position because I've heard it a hundred times, maybe, you know, 500 times, I don't know. But what they do is conflate the covenant sign with the covenant. And I find no offense meant, but I find that the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic church fail miserably in understanding federal headship and covenant. And because of these two things, they arrive at these, uh, these errors that they have because they're not true churches. Okay.

I'm just gonna say it again. They're not true churches at all. They're apostate churches.

The Protestant reformation is fulfillment of the promise of God that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So, but if we go back to, if you want to say that the bread is the body and the wine is the blood, then you're saying that you're eating blood, right? Isn't that what you're saying? Right? Uh, not materially, but yes.

Yeah. And, uh, Leviticus 17, 14 says, do not, uh, eat the blood of any flesh. And in the Jerusalem council, next 15, 20, 29, it says same thing, abstain from blood.

So the Bible, correct. But what is the reason that they give for abstaining from the blood? Because it, uh, these are things associated with idolatry.

Well, there's a, I believe there's a specific reason, right? There's the, they tend to abstain from the blood because that's the life of the, of the animal. And so when you have that, you know, as a prescription and then you have Christ saying on the way, the truth and life and Christ saying, I'm the bread come down from heaven, you know, and, and again, to be clear, we're not material eating human blood.

It's not cannibalistic. It's, it's, and then that's why we have, you know, the theological, um, explanations that we do of it not being materially blood, but blood in essence. And that's ridiculous because if you have an essence of something, an essence has necessary properties. Otherwise the properties don't emanate from the essence, which is necessary. You have what's called necessary properties and accidental properties. An essence will necessarily have certain properties. So if the essence is there, the properties have to be with it.

It's impossible for there to be a differentiation between them. And the essence is there, but the properties are not, makes no sense. But I have a question for you. There's just a question I've been wondering. You can maybe help me out because I'm still learning a lot about the EO.

My notes now are over 200 pages, but here's a question. In Catholicism, they have what's called the monstrance. The wafer becomes the actual body of Christ.

So you can worship it, bow down to it, pray before it and everything. Do you have something similar in the EO, a monstrance? I've not heard that you do, but do you? In Eastern Orthodox, no, you do not. Okay. So here's questions then. So you believe that the wafer becomes the very body of Christ, right? Correct.

In essence. Can you worship that wafer? Absolutely, yeah. So is the wafer a circle? Is it a circle?

Generally, it doesn't have to be, but yes. So let's just use this circle. This is what I've said to Catholics before, and I'm not trying to be insulting or demeaning, but I say, so you bow down before a circle of bread that's Jesus, and you worship it and pray to it.

How's it not idolatry? Yeah, I agree. I was just doing this yesterday for the listeners speaking. Hold on, I hate to interrupt you, but we've got a break. There's music coming up.

I don't know if you can hear it. So hold on, and we'll get back to you right after the break. I apologize if I have to interrupt you, but you know, hard break. So we'll be right back with Joel, having a good conversation, and please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Joel. Joel, you still there? Yes, sir, I'm here. All right, buddy. Okay, so you were saying something. I didn't interrupt you.

My apologies, go ahead. Yeah, so I just wanted people, your callers, to know exactly what it's called. That would be considered idolatrous worship if the Eucharist is not true.

We call it, I was just doing it yesterday, we do it for about an hour. Eucharistic adoration, you go, and they have a consecrated host there and a monstrance, like a circular kind of holding thing, and you just spend time with Christ. And I am fully willing to admit that if that is not actually the body of Christ, I am committing gross idolatry and would be damned to hell for that. And that's how I recognize all the weight. If I can be, if it could be demonstrated that the early saints did not believe this, and that this is truly false from scripture and from the church and from history, I would cease to be Catholic, and I would cease to be Christian. That's how much weight I put on this. So it's called Eucharistic adoration, and it's called idolatry.

No, you need to come to the true faith. The EO is not it. So you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. So let me ask you, you're going to teach me here, okay? What do you physically do in Eucharist adoration? I'm literally going to write this down.

What do you do? And I'll tell you why I'm interested. Well, hopefully, I mean, it's not like a set thing for everybody. I mean, the mindset that I kind of go into it with, and I encourage you to at least check it out. You know, I mean, you don't have to do anything, but I go into that chapel and I treat, I behave as if I was sitting in front of Christ. So what would you do if you were in front of Christ? You know, you would pray, you would sit in silence and kind of receive whatever he has for you.

As a good Catholic, I'd pray a rosary. You know? No, no, no. I would never do that.

I've been in the presence of Christ. No, I'm not saying you have to do all of that. I'm just saying you get at least what you expect. No, no, no. You don't understand.

You don't understand. In the presence of Christ, you'll be on your face weeping. In the presence of Christ and the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, all you will do is put your face to the ground and you're going to moan out in agony because you're in the presence of incredible holiness. In the actual presence of Christ, that's what happens. When God appears in the Old Testament, they say, be gone from me.

I'm a man of unclean lips. In fact, when I got converted, not that I put a credence in this as the proof of anything, but my conversion is very unusual and very dramatic and I'm not going to get into this too long. I'll just give the super short version, but the Holy Spirit came in such power I was reduced to a pile of just sobbing mass and puking, just weeping, agonizing in the presence of incredible holiness. And then Jesus was next to me.

Just my back a little bit, a couple feet, and to my left a little couple feet. I couldn't see him or touch him, but he was there. And in his presence, awe, it's A-W-E, awe, your face is to the ground and you don't sit there and contemplate, hey, you know, I'll contemplate this. You don't do that in the presence of Christ.

You just don't. So when I hear stuff like this from people who say it's the presence of Christ, it tells me they've never been in the presence of Christ. Okay. Are you not always in the presence of Christ? No, no, no. You don't understand what I'm saying.

The presence of Christ, if he, if you and I were in a room arguing politely, blah, blah, blah, and all of a sudden, there he is. I mean, okay. It's going to be a race to who gets to the ground first with her face on the ground. That's what's going to happen. Oh, I do that too. I do that. I do that when I walk into that chapel. I'm prostrate.

Faith on the ground. Okay. All right. I do that. Absolutely.

This is actually Jesus, right? Correct. And then you lay prostrate before it and do you kiss it at all? Just curious.

No, you can't, you can't really get that close to kiss it and you can kind of maintain a reverent distance to it as well. Okay. So you, you, uh, you treat it as though you're in his actual presence. You prostrate before it. What else do you do? I mean, physically, what else do you do? Just curious. Not trying to mock. I'm just asking.

I'll take a note. Yeah. I mean, so you're kneeling and you know, you're, uh, you come, sometimes I'll just lay down honestly.

Like I'll kind of just lay up at the foot of the cross there and just cause I'm tired and so weak and it's just a, I believe Jesus' presence is very peaceful, very silent, quiet and, um, I believe that he gives me rest, so. Wow. Um, wow. That's not what happened when I was in his presence. That's not what happened to me. I'm telling you. And I was in the occult and doing wicked stuff and contacting the dead in séances and talking, trying to contact demonic forces, which I didn't know were demonic. That means seriously, this is no joke, that's what I was actually doing and I've, I've seen manifestations. I believe it. I said it. And then from then the moment of Christ's presence was so overwhelming that boom, instant change, instant permanent.

And that was 51 years ago. So I've calmed down since then. So I'm just saying when people talk to me about this, about the presence, I just don't buy it. And here, but here's the thing. Hey, Matt, I'm sorry, I'm trying to get in there when you're in between the words. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm not trying to interrupt you. All right, go ahead. I feel like Christ being present to you after everything that you just witnessed or practiced, you know, I feel like, you know, it's probably, uh, makes sense that he would have made himself present to you as like a more powerful type of is more glorified state perhaps and is more glory. Um, but I believe like when you're, when you're doing Eucharistic adoration and you're, you're, you're constantly in prayer and you're not in the occult, you know, doing, trying to manifest demons, all these things, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna be there with you in a, in a different sort of, uh, in a different sort of way to give you rest and to give you a peace. I can give you that. I don't want to stay on too much longer because I know you got one more color, but I might join the after show. I don't know how to do that, but that's fine.

We can, we'll put the, uh, if you go into the, uh, Laura will put it into the YouTube chat. There's Leviticus 26 verse one, you shall not make for yourselves idols. You shall not set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it. So because you're not the Lord, your God, so not supposed to make any idols that you or any images or pillars or figured stones that you bow down to these things. And that's what you're doing.

I agree. One moment. You're bowing down before, uh, uh, uh, no, I'm trying to be mean or I'm not trying to say it maliciously, but a round wafer you're bowing down to a round wafer that you think is Jesus. But you see, the problem is, uh, it's not his flesh because his physical body can only be one place at a time. I do kind of, if you don't mind, I do still, and I know you kind of said you respond to these a certain way, but if I was, if you were asking me the same sort of question, you know, you kind of did and I answered, but if it really was truly Christ, what would you do? It's not. Okay. But that's not an answer though. It is an answer. It's like saying, what if Jesus was not God? I can't answer the question because this is not true, but it's a non sequitur. It's like saying, what if God doesn't exist? I've had atheists say that to me and I say, that's a ridiculous question. You're asking me to abandon my worldview based on God to argue from your perspective and I'm not to deny my Lord.

I cannot deny the truth of who he is to entertain such a foolish thought. So you can't find a place in scripture that says that it's actually his body and actually his blood because you're conflating what's called the covenant sign with the covenant itself. And Jesus calls the wine wine afterwards. And it says you're not to eat the blood of any flesh.

And so you're, but you're doing that. And then you say it's the essence is there, but the properties aren't, which is impossible. It's like saying the essence of a circle is roundness.

So you have the essence of a circle there, but there's no roundness there. It makes no sense. It makes no sense.

It does. It's a non sequitur. Unfortunately, you know, and I don't mean, I mean, this is how I mean, but you did just call the body of Christ just a waiver.

So to be fair, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When you ask those types of questions, it's like exactly in John six, when they ask, how can this man give us his flesh to eat? It's the same kind of question.

Yes. And then Jesus responds in John six 63, the words I'm telling you are spiritual words. They're not literal. No, he said they're all spirit, not spiritual. He says they're spirit. They're spirit and truth.

Yeah. The words you say are spirit and truth. And you don't, that doesn't mean non-spiritual. But the bread is physical and the wine is physical, but the bread isn't human flesh.

It isn't. And if you want to say the essence of human flesh is there, you have a logical problem because you have essence without essential properties. It's like saying you have a circle without, but it's like you're saying having a circle, but the essence of circle is roundness, but roundness isn't there, but it's still a circle. It makes no sense.

Saying that there's a logical problem is like saying that the resurrection is a natural problem when an atheist says, oh, well, you can't have a resurrection because we have no cases of a human coming, you know, coming back to life or the virgin birth never had that before. Yes, we do. Yes, we do.

Yes, we do. They recorded the Bible and prophesied in the Bible, but if God exists, then these things are certainly possible. It's what an atheist talks about, these presupposing negation of God's existence, and then I address that at fault. But what we're talking about here is simply logic. The logic is, and I keep saying the same thing over and over, a circle's necessary property is roundness. You cannot transfer the essence of a circle and abandon roundness.

You can't take the essence of a circle and give it to a square and say the square really has the essence of a circle, but it doesn't have any properties of a circle. It's a non-sequitur. It's not possible. It can't be true. And this is what you're saying. Okay? Well, I mean, St. Thomas Aquinas seemed to think so, and he was pretty switched on.

Yeah, he was brilliant, but it doesn't mean he was right about everything. And so what you do is you should go look up essential properties related to essence. This isn't hard. So we talk about accidents and substance, not properties and essence. I know, because the logic is a problem. So what you guys do is you step back from it, and then you go into ambivalence, ambiguity, and you define things in such a way that you don't have to face the problem.

Because it is a problem. When we try to describe a miraculous event, it's going to involve some sort of apprehension of our rational thought, of what we think the natural world is like. So I don't see it, and I don't see it being illogical.

I think normally accidents change and substance stays the same, but in this case, in a miraculous case, the substance changes while the accidents remain the same. It seems like a really good logical explanation to me. It's not. And this thing I've noticed with people in different, in aberrant groups, and this is an opinion, is that their critical thinking skills, abilities, are hamstrung. Because they're not allowed to think in a clear manner. They can only think in a manner consistent with what their church tells them to believe.

Well I believed this before I was Catholic, and before I decided to be Catholic. So that explains why you went apostate, because you're not thinking critically. Okay. You're not thinking critically. Well you're not. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but you're just not thinking critically. And you can't.

You can't think critically. Here's what I've got. Okay, before we close then, because we're in the last minute here, sorry, again, I'm trying to interrupt. Just trying to get the last thing in here. Oh, there's the music.

No, no, no. We've been out of time. You're being polite. It's okay.

Call back tomorrow, or say after show. But we're out of time. Okay. We've got to go. Okay, buddy. All right.

Well, after show. We've got to go. Okay. Talk to you later. Hey folks, sorry, we're out of time. Hope that was interesting. May the Lord bless you. Be on the air tomorrow. Bye. Another program powered by the Truth Network.