S5 EP38 Best of "Who Chose Who?"

Welcome to Man Talk, a ministry sponsored by TAWCMM, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where we're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination, and to point men to their God-assigned roles.

Now here's your hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr. A question. I know you're all on your seats, on the edge of your seats, waiting for the question, and here it is. Do, at Salvation, do you choose God, or does God choose you?

Or, is it kind of a mix between the two? Before you answer that question, we're going to present to you, we're not going to get through this all of this segment, but we want to present to you two positions. The first position, and we're only going to talk about one area, there's about five or six different reasons that these two positions differ the way that they do.

But for the sake of time, we're only going to talk about one of them. So the first position when it comes to we who are sinful at birth, are we totally depraved? In other words, we are people who, as a result of the fall of Adam, that we are unable to come to God on our own. There's all kinds of verses that back this up. We're enemies of God, and so if we are left to ourselves, do we have the ability to say yes to God's will?

Now that's the first position. Now the second position says this, that God gives man this ability to say yes through what they term as prevenient grace. In other words, this grace that the second position holds, it says that it's preparing grace from God, and it's dispensed to everybody. So the result of this prevenient grace can overcome his natural inability to say yes to God.

So this prevenient grace gives him the ability to say yes to God's will. So I'm just presenting the two positions, but I want you to listen and to think about them because undoubtedly, you have been taught in one of those two areas. And so what we want to know is where you stand. And so we're going to talk a little bit about this, and give some scriptural verses, but what we want to know from you is where do you stand and why? So we're asking you to search out the scriptures. We don't want your opinion, but we want to know where in the Bible do you find the reasons why you believe position one or the reason why you believe position two. And again, we're just talking about one aspect of this, and is man totally depraved where he has no ability on his own to come to God or position two says, that God through this prevenient grace prepares man to give him the ability to overcome his natural inability to say yes to God's will. See, this is like a deeper dive into the Word of God. This is no superficial stuff we're talking about here today because the two positions I think have been talked about since the time that they were initiated. And of course, position one, if you don't know, that typically is a position that Calvinists take, and we're not going to go into the in-depth of who Calvin is for the sake of time and all this, and you can read up on his life.

And again, as we stated earlier, there are about five or six differences in these two positions. So we want you to think about that. Now, when I read over in Genesis, and I'll give you some verses here, Genesis chapter six, verses five through seven. Now listen to that, evil continually. So if that's what's in the heart of man, and of course, this is the reason why God brought about the flood because he looked down and he saw that the heart of man was evil. It wasn't turning to God. And how could it turn to God if man is sinful? If man is fallen? If he does not have the ability to come to God on his own? Now, position two, they take the approach that says when God's talked about in the book of St. Luke chapter six, and that he said a good tree bring forth, a good tree bring forth, bring not forth corrupt fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

For every tree is known by its fruit. And then it goes on to talk about that in verse number 45, a good man out of the good treasure of his heart, bring forth that which is good, and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart, bring forth that which is evil for of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speak. If you are an individual who is unregenerate, then where does the prevenient grace comes from? Well, again, position two, folks take this position. They say, well, if you look over there, and when God talks about that no man can come to God, unless the Father draws him. So they take this word draws, and again, this is just a position. They take the word draws, and they say, so how does this drawing happen to where an individual have the ability to come to God? And so this is where they invoke this prevenient grace. That God is preparing this individual's heart over a period of time, so that when it comes time for him to say yes to God's will, that God has prepared his heart to say yes. W-I-L-L at T-A-W-C-M-M dot com.

That's will, W-I-L-L at T-A-W-C-M-M dot com. Get your verses together. Tell me the reason why you hold to position one or position two. Now, when I read over in Romans, and again, I'm just giving you some verses of scripture, so that you could take this as spiritual food for thinking about what you have thought about this question in the past, and maybe now you want to take a fresh approach as to what is going to be talked about today, or what are we talking about?

Yes, because I know we're getting ready here to come up on a break. We can offer God because you sinned against him, and if you sinned against him, then there is a penalty that you must pay. Now, we who are born again, we understand that this penalty, we cannot pay on our own.

There has to be someone who pays the penalty for us, and we know that that person who was sinless had to be none other than the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Because in Isaiah 64 and six, all of our righteousness, God says, is as filthy rags, and our lives are like the flower that fades, and our iniquity like the wind has carried us away. So we are blown about by every wind of doctrine. We don't have anything righteous we can present to God, two positions, and so we were reading from Romans chapter three, and we read verse 10. Now, I want to read verse 11 because I'm giving you scripture that supports position one. Now, it says in verse number 11 of chapter three of Romans, there is none that understands, there is none that seek after God. See, when I read this, I'm reading an individual who can't understand anything that God may say to him because he don't understand God. So if he doesn't understand God, and he's not looking to seek after God because he doesn't have a willingness, he is unwilling to seek God. So if he has no understanding of who God is, and if he is not seeking after God, and then in verse 12, it says, they are all gone out of the way. In other words, they're doing their own thing.

They have altogether become unprofitable. They're no good to God. This is describing a person who is like the lowest of the lowest of the low. And so if these passages are describing a person who is depraved because he is unwilling to come to God, then how can he come to God?

And again now, position two says that God starts preparing his heart sometime during his life, getting that heart prepared so that when it comes time for him to say yes to God's will, he says yes to God's will. Now let me continue to read on. They are altogether become unprofitable.

There is none that do good. No, not one. This is everybody, everybody before we become born again. Then he talks about the body parts. He says their throat is like an open grave. Their tongues they have used for deceit. The poison of ass is under their lips. Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their ways. See, this is all they know. All a person knows is destruction. He knows misery. And knowing those things means that he don't know God.

So I have to come back. And again, this is just passages we're reading. I have to come back now and say for position two folks, when does this prevenient grace start? And how does it give the ability of a person to say yes when God says they don't have the ability to even seek after him?

They don't want to. So see, that is a spiritual desire to not want to seek after God. It's a spiritual desire. But the position two says that this natural inability is overcome by the prevenient grace. So a person's natural ability, so if they're talking about a natural ability to say yes to God's will, but yet things are happening in the supernatural realm, then how can you reconcile the two? This is just a question now.

Email me. I want to hear the position that you take. That's will at tawcmm.com. Help me to understand because we're putting these two positions out here. And we want to know where our listening audience is thinking when it comes to whether or not man can't do anything on his own and it's all God's doing or God give this man this prevenient grace over a period of time. So when he comes time to say yes to God's will, then he has the ability to say yes. But see, that's that's what I'm stuck on, because I think you can make an argument one way or the other for both of these positions. So I'm just putting them out here to see where the listening audience where you are and what you have been taught and what your thinking is concerning total depravity of man or man is depraved, but he is given this prevenient grace so that he can say yes to his will. See, I believe that God has to give man some something supernatural for him to say yes. And I don't know if it's prevenient grace is what it's being called by the position to folks. I don't I don't know if if that's it or if it's given that name, that name was adopted. Where did it come from?

This is just me asking questions. But on the same token, I believe that the position to folks believe that something does happen supernaturally. But they labeled it prevenient grace. But when you do that, I'm wondering, are you nullifying what Jesus Christ did on the cross?

I'm just asking the question, did was that nullified by us saying that we have to come in here and do something when Jesus Christ hung on the cross and he did it all for us? This is the question prevailing question that we're putting to man talk listeners. I want to know where you stand. I am just curious and I hope my mailbox just blow up with responses because we're putting them out here.

We want to know what you where you stand. We want to know how you have been taught in reference to this. And this is a much deeper study than the time we have on today's broadcast to get into the nuts and bolts.

But we want you as we talked to Dr. Nickens last week, we want you to get under the hood of that car. We want you to take a deeper dive in the scripture. Just don't settle for the pastor's word. And I'm a pastor. I pastor people, but I tell the congregation, listen, don't don't take what I say. Get in the word of God and let the word of God show you to take what is being stated.

And I always tell them this. If you have a question in reference to anything that's stated, we can take that thing one on one outside of service time. I always leave that up to them if you have a question, because no question should be unanswered. And there may be a question that you have that I cannot answer at the time you ask it that I may have to go back and research that thing. It's OK. We should never leave the pulpit and people have questions in reference to something that they heard.

And I am always open, always willing to receive what thus saith the Lord in reference to what your understanding of certain passages of scripture are. Because for the most part, what we do as a nation and as a world in particular, we start picking and choosing things that sounds good to us. Until such time, something better comes along and then we cast we cast that first thing aside and now we jump on the bandwagon with the second thing. And so and this could be a good thing, but it also could be that you're jumping from the frying pan, if you will, right into the fire.

So you have to really be careful in today's time because the enemy is very cunning. He's very deceptive and he wants to deceive God's people, even the very elect. He wants to come and and have you doubt your salvation, have you doubt that you were born again, have you doubt that you are walking with God and walking in the spirit and letting the Holy Spirit control you? Because, you know, listener, you know, if you're not letting the Holy Spirit control you, there is no one who have to tell you that when you get out of the will of God, if you're born again, if you get out of the will of God, there is no one that have to tell you to get back in the will of God, because what the Holy Spirit will do first and foremost is convict you.

Notice now convict, not condemn, because there is therefore no condemnation to him who are in Christ Jesus. As we conclude today's show, TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry, are building a community of men to be servant leaders in their home, communities, churches and work environment. Check us out on our Web site for upcoming events and regular scheduled meetings. Don't forget to send us an email for topics that you would like us to visit in the future. Thank you for joining us today on Man Talk. Visit us at TAWCMM.com.