Missing Men In Church Show From June 2nd

Welcome to Man Talk, brought to you by TAWCMN, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where they're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination, and challenging men to take their God-assigned role. Here's our hosts Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and... Well, good afternoon. We're so glad you joined us today.

This is Roy Jones Jr. and I'm here with Will Hardy, my co-host. We've got Pastor Pete from First Christian Church joining us out of Connersville, North Carolina. Pastor Pete, how are you today? Hey, doing good. Good to hear from you guys.

Well, we're so excited to have you with us this afternoon. Let's get right to it, Pastor. Just a little bit about the absence of men in church today. That seems to be a national problem, at least in the U.S. We see it quite frequently, the ratio of men versus women in churches. I think the latest statistics show maybe 62% of the church populations are women, and 38% are roughly men. What do you attribute that to, Pastor Pete?

I think there are a lot of things that have caused that to happen. My generation, when I was growing up, that if you were a man and you went to church, that you were a sissy, or that you weren't much of a man, because only women and children go to church. And, you know, I think that most of us don't believe that, that are actually involved in men's ministry. There are a lot of men's men in the church now. But I think that philosophy carried through my generation and passed on to younger men. And the absence of fathers, you know, in young men's lives now, too, has kept them from engaging in church and being participants in the things of the church.

Well, that's a great point, Pastor Pete. You know, the absence of fathers, we've talked about it on previous shows, about the difference between manhood and malehood. Fathering a child, or at least providing the tools for that, is certainly different than actually leading a child through life. And the absence of fathers these days is a tremendous problem. Even when many men are present, they seem to be absent, if you will. We see all the distractions that men are dealing with today with the phones. Many, many times I'm at dinner and we'll watch family sitting there with the father tooling around the phone, the children are playing on the phone, the wives playing on the phone.

But you make a good point about what you grew up with. And in today's time, one of the things that we've noticed within our ministry work is that men need something to do. And we were just talking about that before the show. And, you know, give a prime example, Pastor Pete, of what a man would expect to do in terms of level of service in your church and what you would look for a godly man to be doing at your church. We have multiple opportunities for men within our congregation to have involvement. You know, working around the grounds, service projects, whether that's going to a widow lady's house or an elderly person's house and building a ramp or helping them with garden responsibility. We had a World War II veteran, his name's Harvey Griffin, and the men from our church go over every week and take care of his yard free of charge.

And our deacons have bought that up, and other men are involved in that. Rescue and recovery from hurricanes, storms, tornadoes, flooding. Our men are actively involved in that, and for years have gone to different locations, such as New Orleans when the great hurricane came in there.

They were down east this past year and working with food trucks and caring for the needs of people. Men get jazzed when they are able to do hands-on work with people, whether that's in the community or locally, or even or a lot. You know, I've taken a number of guys on mission trips with me, and they've had the opportunity to share and to wise people who are far more unfortunate than we are in the lives that we live. And they get to see it from that perspective, and I think it blesses them, and they get excited, and they share it with other people, and then those men get a desire to come and be a part of that.

So I think all of those service projects, regardless of what you do, where men are working with their hands and they're actively involved, really doing something that makes a difference in people's lives, is where they want to be. That's good, Pastor Pete. Back to the absence of the men in the church, one of the things we were talking about before the show started we wanted to ask you was to, I guess, clarify the collateral damage that occurs when men aren't present in the church, and then of course that transcends and translates into being absent in the home, like we were talking about before. What is the collateral damage that you witnessed, Pastor Pete, as a result of the absence of men? Well, one is we advocate our responsibilities to the women of the church, and women weren't meant to be husbands or fathers or even males in that sense.

I know they had to take those roles, but it was never God's intent for them. We were to lead in the household, we were to be the teachers of the Word of God. You go to Israel and you go to the synagogue, you'll see Jewish men interacting with their Jewish sons and grandsons, teaching them the Word of God.

Most men are not equipped to do that today, and it's a shame. I think it has really changed the literacy of many of the young people in our churches, because they don't have that kind of example of teaching and leading. You know, Will does a tremendous job on our Friday morning, every other Friday morning, for the breakfast, and I think one of the things that men have been missing who are attending there is that they've never had another man teach them in that way, other than, you know, maybe if they come to church on occasion, Easter and Christmas, and hear a message that we know that doesn't bring a huge amount of value just coming twice a year, that we need to be engaged and involved. And I think it's passed down through the church that they're just huge, gaping holes now, where men are supposed to be apart and engaged, and therefore, since they're not, their sons are not, and then their grandsons are not, and we're seeing a movement away from churches all across America. And I think it's a direct effect and cause, because men haven't taken responsibility of what God has given for them to teach.

You know, Pete, I appreciate the comment in reference to the breakfast and teaching. Prior to coming over here, I was looking at a U.S. Congregational Life Survey, and the numbers that Roy stated was the same numbers that was stated in this particular survey. And it also shown that 90 percent of the families said that they would come to church if the man was present.

And so, if the man is not present, and some of the things that you talked about in reference to his accountability and or responsibility, how do we get them to that point to let them see that they are indeed responsible for their family, their community, and, you know, their actions on the workplace? I think one of the things is that most churches are decorated and geared toward women. You know, I just want you to think about a lot of churches that you would go into, and they're not attracted to men. It doesn't portray a man's environment.

And I think that's important. I've been to some churches out west. One was built like a huge lodge, and they have one of the largest churches in America, and it's just outside of Phoenix, Arizona. And his whole belief system, his name was Don Wilson, was that if I get the men to come to church, women and their children will come.

And he was extremely successful in that model, but the church looked like a man's church. You know, their baptistry was outside on the side of a mountain. You know, where would people, where would guys want to be baptized? Not necessarily in a baptistry, in a warm pool inside your church. They enjoy going to lake or to a river, and sometimes you have to bring some of those components. Either if you can't have them in the church, then you need to have them outside the church where men want to gather.

I think that's why your retreats up in the mountains are so effective. That's a man's place. That's where men want to be. They want to be out there among nature.

They want to do fishing trips. They want to go to baseball and football games, and they want to do things that men do. And if we're only doing things, quote, that churchy people do, a lot of times it doesn't include any of those kind of things. Men like to go to golf tournaments. They like to be, they like to sit on a golf cart and talk to each other about men's things. And I think the church has failed in giving a lot of those opportunities to men.

And I think it would have tracked them if we did more things that dealt with man's issues. That's good, Pastor Pete, because men are more goal-driven. And I like what you said earlier in reference to men working with their hands, you know, men getting involved. Men feel like that they need to be a part of the whole.

And when they don't feel that way, then they have a tendency just not to come. Yeah, stay at home. Yeah. So when we talk, when we talk about, a little bit about what is a church man versus an unchurch man. Yes. Yeah. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Because when we hear the term unchurched, what do we really mean when we hear that term?

And so, go ahead, I'm sorry. Yeah, when I hear that term, I see a man who really hasn't been given the opportunity to engage in a church. Most men know about church, and on occasion visit a church for a funeral or a wedding, but they really see that as the greatest need of the church, is baptism of children, you know, wedding ceremonies and funerals. But they don't see it applicable to them, and therefore they're unchurched. They don't see a real reason for coming to a church, they don't see a real reason for coming to church. When we engage men, real men, and they have the opportunity to meet them and to walk with them, that's what entices them. You know, I always had a boat, and I always had a man in a boat, I talked to him about Bible things and godly things, because unless he can walk on water, he can't get away from things. And same with my motorcycle, you know, when I've ridden motorcycles for years, and one of the attractors was that that's something that men do, and they were much more ready to listen to me out in those church doors talk about Jesus from a boat or from a motorcycle than they were from the pulpit on Sunday morning.

Right. They learned who we were. Pastor Pete, we need to hold you, interrupt you there for one second, we're going to a break, we'll be right back with you. We'll be right back. awareness of your choices empowers you. Take an informed and active role. Visit NotOnMyWatch.com Welcome back to Man Talk and we have Pastor Pete, Senior Pastor at First Christian Church in Kernersville on the phone and Pastor Pete, after we went to the break, you were talking about a boat and fishing and how men relate to things like that.

So we're going to go ahead and pick that up. Yes, I think to build a relationship with men, they have to see you as a man. And once you build that relationship, then you can invite them to church. And they're much more apt to visit the church once they've seen you behave as a man, and do manly things, because that's what they're attracted to. When you look at all of the environments that surround us, men want to see real men, and they don't get that picture much in today's world. They don't see men in the church as real men until they actually meet them and have interaction with them.

But that's a great point, Pastor Pete. I think men, to your comment earlier, need real men. They need to see what a man's man looks like. And I think we've dampened that whole process down with the demasculinization of men over the last ever how many years that's gone on.

And fishing, hunting, riding motorcycles, and building relationships is where it all starts. I mean, certainly we look at what Christ did. Christ did it with the 12.

Yes, he did. And that's where it should all start for all of us. And I think we go at it from the other direction. We invite them to church, and then we're disappointed if they won't ever join us. Right. And then to your point earlier, when we finally get them in the church, then they're not seeking the environment, or don't see the environment that we would like for them to see as a man.

Right. Now, I agree 100% that it starts from outside the church, and then they can become the church. They just, they have to engage somebody who's real and authentic, and they see them as somebody that they would want to share time with. And, you know, if it happens out in the woods, if it happens at a boat or a motorcycle or a ball game, it can also happen in the church, if there's that trust built between men's men.

Most definitely. And then I think we were just chatting before that Jesus indeed was the man of all men. He was a servant.

He was a lover. He was a warrior, which most people don't think of Jesus as being a warrior, but he indeed was a warrior. And I think that's what anyone that's listening today should understand that, hey, just because you're a follower of Christ doesn't make you a weak individual. It doesn't take you out of being a man's man. It actually strengthens you to be more of a man's man.

Right. You know what I see of Jesus, Roy, is when I studied the cross, and you realize that he was tortured the night before, and had lost a lot of blood when he went before the Romans and they scourged him. Then he carried a cross all the way up the Via Dolorosa, to where they nailed him to the cross, except for the part where he came and finished carrying it because he lost so much blood. But only a man's man could do that.

If you've ever walked the Via Dolorosa, you know how far that is, and how difficult of a walk that is, even today. And I can't even imagine what kind of man Jesus must have been in order to achieve, to even get to the cross, be nailed to it, and then to give his life willingly. That's a warrior. You know, when you die for your brother, say something, and soldiers understand that, that when you lay down your life for people, and that shows true commitment, that you are truly a brother in arms. And I'm going to need to see that in the church.

They need to see that version of Jesus, too. He was compassionate. He loved children, and he ministered to women, but he was also a man's man. Oh, that is so true, Pete.

As you were saying, let me ask you a question. Does a man's man get weak when the going gets tough? Does a man's man stay true? Does he stay true beside the man, or when things get a little bit noisy, does he drop off? Well, a lot of followers do, or weak men do, but I don't think the doors to Jesus do. I think that people like John stay beside Jesus.

You know, when you look at his behavior toward others, you know, he adapted that whole idea of love and loving your brother with all your heart, and loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And that's what a real man does. You know, when you go to combat, and you stand hand in hand with somebody in combat, and you cover their back, and you take care of their six, then you know that he's your brother. He's not going to run out on you. When the fight gets tough, he's going to be right there with you, and stand with you. And I think that's what men want to see.

And I want to see it in the church, too. Not guys who just run away. Yeah, we get battle-wear, and we get tired, but we don't quit. We stay in for the fight, and we stay until Jesus comes, or he comes and gets us.

Amen. Pete, one other question, and then I'll turn it back over to my co-host. I want to just go back to the collateral damage piece, because I think men that are listening today need to understand what their lack of involvement will mean, either in today's time, or just a little bit down the road when their children grow up, and they've not had that influence of a spiritual father and spiritual leader in the family. Talk a little bit, Pete, about the collateral damage that you see.

You know, we mentioned this a little bit before, and I think we started on it. We got onto another topic, but what does it do to a young lady that's growing up without a father, to a young man who's growing up without a father, and then how does that affect down the road in terms of their life and their future, and then their inability to get engaged in church and raised in church as a result of that? Well, you know, a young lady doesn't understand if she hasn't been raised by a father or a father hasn't been active in her life, what a father's role is, and that's why they so many times may marry an abuser for the bad boy image rather than a godly man, because they've never seen it.

They don't know what it is. And the same with a young man. To have a father as a role model for him and demonstrates true manliness and godliness together, then how does he know? Where does he find that?

How does he see that? And I think it's one of the reasons for all the confusion in our society right now of what a man is, what a woman is, and how they interact with each other, because they haven't been modeled. We have done immense damage to family units and to young men and to young women because they haven't seen a biblical model of what a parent or a father actually does, and that just leads to more divorce. Do we have more divorce than we had 30 years ago? The answer's yes. Do we have more violence in our country and less peace within homes?

The answer would be yes. And that residual flows down and flows down and continues because they haven't seen those good models, and they don't know how to love a woman between models. They don't sometimes know how to truly love a man and respect a man because they haven't seen a model. You know Pastor Pete, that's true too, because most men don't understand what it means to be a man and how to function as a man in the church. And secondly, they don't have a good ideal, once they get in the church, who they need to talk to or who they need to align themselves with. Because when you were talking about earlier, you know, friends and love, and Jesus, I'm reminded in John 15, he says, greater love hath no man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends. And so when we can be a friend to a man who might be coming, searching and looking for that place to fellowship, I think that's one of the beginning things to start him on that journey of understanding who he is and who Christ wants him to be. But how important, Pastor Pete, is music to a man when he is sitting down and listening to the worship?

How important is that? I think that worship has to be led from a manly perspective too, if it's going to attract men to come, that we need to lead as men in worship. And I'm always reminded of promise-keepers, and going back to DC, I don't know how many of you were involved in that, but when they had the March on DC for Men, and literally probably a million men were there. And my guys, when you hear a million men sing, or whatever the number was there in DC, it would send chills down your spine, because when men sing, there's a different tone to it than just a regular congregational singing.

And they were bellowing those songs out, because they were songs of victory, they were songs of being warriors, and being champions, and championing the cause for God. And I saw the power that took place there, and it just really inspired me, and I think ever since those days been gone, it has really affected our churches, because that was a rallying point for men to come and to be a part of those conferences, and especially to go to DC and all convene there. And it was just a very powerful moment in my life, and I know the men who went with me, which were about 60, were all impacted by that. One last thing, one of our colleagues had reminded us here that we literally see God in how we've seen our fathers, and that's our point of reference. And I was one of those young men that grew up without having a godly role model with my dad.

My dad loved us and provided very well, but we didn't have that godly role model. And that's one of those things, I think back to your comment earlier, that we have to be visible in the church with our children and with our families, because if we've got the family there, then there's a high success that they're all going to be continuing to stay within the walk. Pastor Pete, we want to get you back to join us again soon. Thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you. Y'all are blessed with me, and thank you for allowing me to be a part of this. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry, is building a community of men that are Christ followers with the desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk.