How Do We Relate To Each Other Part 2

Hey, this is Mike Zwick from If Not For God Podcast, our show.

Stories of hopelessness turned into hope. Your chosen Truth Network Podcast is starting in just seconds. Enjoy it, share it. But most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing the Truth Podcast Network. This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Man Talk, brought to you by TAWCMN, talking and walking Christian men's ministry, where they're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination and challenging men to take their God-assigned role. Here's our hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy. Welcome to Man Talk Radio.

I'm Will Hardy. And I'm Roy Jones Jr. And we are back with part two with Jane Lessard. And we're talking about just issues and concerns in reference to men and marriage. And for this particular segment, Jane, we want to concentrate more on the couples' relationship. We kind of put a lot of emphasis on the men. On the last program, we did talk a little bit about couples and women and things like that. Okay. So the initial question is, what are the top three challenges that you have to deal with when it comes to couples and relationships and marriage in this modern era?

I'd say the top three challenges would be money, sex, and communication. Wow. In that order?

Could you? Probably so, yeah. I had to say, I wish it was intimacy first, emotional intimacy. Right, right. And then money and sex. But yeah, probably money, sex, and communication.

And what is the, elaborate a little bit on each one with sort of what the root cause that you have encountered with respect to those three issues? Once you get to the bottom. Okay. I think with money, couples come into marriage often marrying their opposite savers, merry spenders. And the trust is not there. They haven't learned to partner. And so, you know, there are a lot of secret, different values.

And so when finances become tight or just communication about it, it's not there. There are fights. Those are where the fights begin to happen. And that's when couples come in.

What about that second issue? Sex. I was going to say, Will, you can say the word. Sex, when I get to heaven.

But we'll see, we have the professional on. Yeah, you just didn't want to lead her into it. That's what it was. When I get to heaven, it's one, it's going to be one of the things I asked God first, which is why did he give men such a strong sex drive and the women, not as strong, but, but a strong drive for emotional connection. And I think I know, you know, I think God gave us different needs so that we have to die to self. And care for the other person first.

And if we don't, we're in trouble. But infidelity is up to 60%. And Jamie, you said, Jamie, if I can interrupt you said 60, as in six, zero, six, zero. Wow. So that means six out of 10 couples have got infidelity issues.

That's correct. Wow. Now, back to our last week's conversation. Are we talking, when we say infidelity, are we talking inclusive emotional affairs or is that a physical infidelity in 60%? Well, they're saying physical infidelity. Wow. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. And you know, and I think, I think that's not surprising either in today's time or in past years. Because I think as couples become and get under these emotional, physical, psychological strains that they are put in, you know, a lot of these, the thing, these needs that they're seeking, it becomes manifest. Well, Jamie, what percentage of, let me rephrase this, over the last 10 years, or maybe even 15 years, has that number gone up? And do you attribute any of that to the electronic devices that make it so much easier? At least my, I'm kind of leading down this path, but do you think that contributes to this infidelity issue with electronic devices, lead to secrecy, easy to do, and then that manifests itself into a physical relationship?

Yeah. I think it's easy to speak affairs on the internet. Pornography is so available. Commitment isn't what it used to be.

On everything. So yeah, addiction. I think the whole internet can create an addiction.

And once you've entered addiction, you're going to start lying. And, you know, then that lack of trust and the truthfulness and the marriage just begins to break down. You know, Jamie, when you talked about secrecy, that's one of the things that I've seen in counseling couples is that the person that you're marrying, they really don't sit down and talk about the things that they could potentially have problems with, because it's the love, it's the googly eyes and, you know, and it's, you know, I'm opening up the door, I'm pulling out the chair, those type things that they see. But one couple, for example, they went into a relationship and after a month, they want to get married. And it just so happened that the husband, future husband, he had a lot more debt. And so when she married him, she's marrying the debt too.

Right. So because, you know, so that that's going along, and then all of the other baggage that go along with that debt, you know, all of the phone calls from creditors that you might be getting or from family members that you borrowed money from and, and all these things, again, start to manifest itself. Now, instead of her marrying this one man, she's married like 15 other people, you know, because, because all of them are intertwined with his life before they said I do. James, we could circle back on this, back to this piece, number two component, the sex piece, are we talking, obviously the 60% fidelity issues. So what else are the struggles within the marriage that go back to what we were talking about last week, related to this topic? What else would you build around this to kind of be as a forewarning to couples and men and women that are listening out there? So the last area is communication. And couples tend to go into when they have fight, right, wrong, win, lose battles, instead of really seeking to understand each other. And so whenever they have a fight, it's who's right, who's wrong, not, let me understand you, let me understand what you're feeling, and then vice versa. That lead to depth and intimacy. But you couples are capable of that, Roy. So how would you recommend if someone's listening and they find themselves just the way you've described it, they're incapable at this point of doing that, how would you encourage couples to take that first step? Because one of our best advices to people is you take the step in the natural.

If you're serving God, he's going to come along in the supernatural and take care of the rest of the journey. So how would you recommend that a couple if they're listening or a man or woman by themselves listening and in this situation, how do they start? Where do they start? Well, the first step, you know, a lot of men will say, well, I'm just not a good communicator.

But it's really a four step process. Your spouse speaks. And then the listener will mirror back what they heard him say. What they heard him say, validate why they'd be feeling that way.

Empathizes with them, gives them two or three things, feeling words, and then ask, what can I do to make things better? It's a formula that all men can do well, even if they didn't learn it growing up. It's harder than it sounds. And it's good to have a third person there to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you missed this step until it really begins to flow. But when people come in with communication problems, that's probably an easier fix than even sex or money.

But there's all the lies and deceit that are involved in that. Okay, so let's mirror that. Let's mirror back what you just said. Be a listener, which and this means active listening because of the step to mirror back what you just heard from your spouse. Third, empathize with what basically demonstrates you understand, validate and validate.

I can understand why you feel so angry right now, because something like that. Yeah. And then step four. And step three is empathize. Right. Step four, ask the question, how can I make this better?

What are the things I can do to make this better? And see, and I think that takes a humbling of the spirit on both the husband and the wife account, you know, to, to humble themselves. And I think that if, if they truly want to make reconciliation, if they truly want to do this, then, and they're both believers, then they're going to be open to the spirit of God and not get their dictation and direction from the world. Because in Ephesians chapter three and verse 22, it says, talks about wives loving their own husbands, submitting themselves to their own husband as, as the Lord has submitted himself, you know, and, and the church, he submits himself to God, the church submits himself, their self to Christ. So if we are part of the church, then, then submission is not a shameful thing to do, or it's, but I think that's how it's viewed. It's how it's viewed in society that if that if you submit yourself, then you're showing some type of weakness.

Well, you may be right there, Will, and that's the way maybe a lot of what people are thinking. And we'll pick this conversation back up in just a moment after break. Thank you for joining us. TAWCMM would love to have you join their community of men for breakfast every first and third Friday of every month. They have Bible discussions and fellowship after the best breakfast in town. The meeting location is at their gracious Host Church, First Christian Church in Kernersville, 1130 North Main Street in Kernersville.

They have a hard start at seven o'clock and a hard stop at eight o'clock. First time visitors eat for free. Join your hosts Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr., a black guy and a white guy. Affordable Chiropractic in High Point. As you might tell from their name, Affordable Chiropractic, even for the cash patient. Dr. Jeff Fricke has been caring for patients in High Point for 34 years. Physical therapy such as ultrasound and spinal decompression for disc conditions such as herniation. Comprehensive care for auto accident injury patients with no out-of-pocket expense. Remember, Affordable Chiropractic on West Lexington Avenue in High Point.

Call 336-885-1987. Welcome back to Man Talk Radio. We're joined by Jane Lessard, a professional counselor from High Point, North Carolina. And we're so glad you've joined us on the show. And Jane, back earlier in this first segment, I wanted to ask you something, or at least God kind of put on my heart about something. When you were talking about when you get to heaven, you're going to ask him about why men were wired, why he wired men the way he did and why he wired the women the way he did. And what just came to my heart when you were talking about that, the two are supposed to become one.

Right? So therein lies the wholeness. The two have become one. So the strength, the sexual drive, so strong with the men and the emotional spiritual link with the women. So if the two truly have become one, and then they function as one serving God, then the balance you would think would naturally be there. But we know us men, we probably make that struggle and create a lot of that struggle. And that's talked about, Roy, in Ephesians chapter 3, verses 31 and 32.

It talks about when a man leaves father and mother, and then he cleaves them to his wife, and they too shall be one flesh. And, you know, we could talk about that on the whole show in and of itself. But that the, it literally takes, I believe, a lifetime.

It does. For, you know, the two to become one in knowing each other, because the circumstances and situations that we are surrounded with, and how that affects us, or should I say how we allow it to affect us, then I think that may or may not alter our direction in how we approach issues, and, you know, whether or not we are truly in that submissive state. Because if the church, and we're part of the church, supposed to be submitting ourselves to Christ, then we need to know exactly what Christ did in submitting himself to the Father.

And so, because he was the example, he was our model example. So, and Jane, you probably addressed my second question here in reference to the process that, you know, you take for couples in these challenges when you... Yeah, with the four-step process. The four-step process, which is good. So how often do they respond, the couples respond positively or negatively to that particular four-step process that you have seen in your years?

They respond very positively. The men are elated that it is a formula and not this, you know, touchy-feely kind of thing that they have to have within them. That they can walk through these four steps, and when they do it, their wives literally will break into tears and go, you know, you get me, you understand me, which is what every woman longs for. So I have found it radical in my marriage counseling. Men, listen, and women, radical. I mean, that has a lot of positive connotation to it.

Radical. Amen. So, and going back to Ephesians chapter three, and I don't know about you, Jane, but I have, I always have couples struggle when it comes to the verse where it says that, as the church submits itself to Christ, so let the wives submit themselves to their own husbands in everything. And it's the in everything that I think the wife have problems with. But see, if they're coming in there with an open mind and an open heart, then it's not that the man is commanding the woman, but yet she is willfully and lovingly submitting herself because she understands that the order that God has established in scripture with, in reference to the church submitting itself to Christ, just as Christ submitted himself to the father. So then the, if the husband being the head of the wife, then she submits herself lovingly. But that word submit, I've always had women in the marriage, they have problems with that.

Have you had that same experience? Absolutely. You know, when we remember that we're in this battle together, and that God has put the man over us to protect us, to provide for us, and he loves us as Christ loved the church, submission is easy. But it's hard for a man to love a wife as Christ loves the church.

It's hard for a woman to submit to a man. Why? Because we have an enemy, and we're sinners, and we're prideful, and we're selfish. And so all of this takes a death to self and living vertical, fixing our eyes on Jesus. Amen. Amen.

And when we live vertical, then it's easy for us to live horizontally and interact with our brother. Yeah. Amen.

Because it's flowing through from the right direction. Amen. Christ down through us to everybody out to each side. That's right. But yeah, that everything.

So I've had questions where the wife would say, well, what if my husband asked me to do something that I think is ungodly? And we don't want to go too deep into this, but you know where I'm headed with this. All right.

That's right. And here's what I do. I call that communication thing, I call it heart talk. E-A-R-T talk. I'd have a heart talk about that. I'd say, well, you know, Tom, I'm really struggling with what you're asking me to do.

Are you willing to have a heart talk? But she shares what she's feeling. He's got to mirror back, validate, and empathize. And after he understands her, they might be able to tweak it, but it's not this command. But he understands her. She understands him.

And then they can move together as one. Wow. That's a blessing. That's a blessing. Because if there's anything I think that a man typically wants to use, is he wants to use his position that God have placed him in, and this authority that he's been given, that if the wife doesn't give him what he wants, you know, then you're in violation is what he'll say.

You're not following the will of God. But it goes back to, I think, what you said. If he, if you're having that heart talk, if you're having that heart discussion and you're understanding the need, if she is not at a point to receive what you want to give at that particular point, you have to talk it out. And, you know, and if, and that's part of that communication.

It is. And I think one thing we haven't talked much about is the timeout, right? It's too often when the emotions run high, and I'm sure Jane deals with this with quite a few of her clients, is that sometimes you just have to call timeout. And if it escalated so quick that you can't even have that talk, right? So you need to say, we need to just cool off and let's come back in 20 minutes or 30 minutes or an hour and let's just sit down and talk together, recognizing that we're both escalated right now. And I think, you know, that's what 35 years of marriage and a Jane Lessard in your life and your history tells you and teaches you.

Yeah, that timeout is important. And because heart talk will keep us from escalating, but if you're already escalated, you got to take that time out. I think the other thing that, that I would say that it's really helpful in a marriage is taking 10, 15 minutes a night, turn off all electronics, eyeball to eyeball, and just share about your day, the best, the worst, what was hard, what was good and become a team. Be sure you're partnering in every area of your life.

If you do that on a daily basis, that creeping separateness isn't as likely to happen. Well, that's good, Jane. What do you see, Jane, as the, which spouse is likely to resist coming in for any type of marital counseling?

You know the answer to that one. Women are all about, let's talk about it. Yeah, and you're asking a woman too, when you realize, of course it's going to be the men. But you know, I'm going to tell you this, men are usually the ones to make the phone call.

Not women. It's the men, the women will say, well, you call her. And that's so smart, but it's the men who call me and go, hey, we're struggling, I'd like to come in. And you know, I think if the marriage counselor is strong and direct, men respond really well to counseling, like really well. So I've been encouraged by men and their willingness to come in and their willingness to fight for the marriage. You know, and what I've seen is, I've seen more women needing structure.

And that's to say that they're looking for a process. You know, when we leave here, what is it that we could be doing? What type of maybe exercises or things that you can give us that we can sit down together and do? And she's typically like right on task when it comes to those things, which, you know, I applaud. Yeah, one last thing I'd like to offer, and Jane would, I'm sure would concur, and we all know you do, is on the flip side of that debrief time at the end of the day, the morning or evening should start or end with prayer together, going before the Father, before the cross, together. And both of you sharing that one day, the next, vice versa, to be a part of that.

A hundred percent of couples that pray together, never divorce. You got it, folks. Jane, thank you so much. As we wrap up today's show, be assured that TAWCMM, Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry, is building a community of men that are Christ followers with a desire to be servant leaders in their homes, communities, churches, and work environments. Check out our website for upcoming events and regularly scheduled meetings. Drop us a note for topics that you would like to have us visit in the future. Thank you for joining us on Man Talk today. Visit us at www.tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk. This is the Truth Network.