Welcome to Man Talk. A ministry sponsored by TAWCMM. Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry. where we're devoted to breaking down the walls of race and denomination. and to point men to their God-assigned roles.
Now here's your hosts, Will Hardy and Roy Jones Jr. Welcome to Mad Talk Radio. This is Roy Jones, your co-host. And this is Will Hardy, your other co-hosts. And we've got two special guests with us.
Would you guys like to introduce yourselves? Hi, this is Michael Burnett. This is Michael Burnett here currently in Summerfield, North Carolina. Yeah, this is Ken Klein, Pastor Ken Klein, down in Thomasville, North Carolina. It's good to be with you guys tonight.
It's good to have you, Pastor Ken. And Pastor Will and Pastor Michael.
So good to have you fellas.
Well, we've been talking over the last several weeks. Individually, before the podcast, about enmity with God and what does that mean? What does that look like in today's church and today's society? And when and we know that's a direct conflict of with whatever God's will is or God's direction or God's laws are. When we're in direct conflict of that, we are at enmity with God.
Basically, the enemy. Of God, if we're friends with the world or supporting world initiatives or world philosophies that are not aligned with our Lord and Savior.
So Uh, that's kind of where we're starting off tonight. We're going to have two sessions with you: uh, part one and part two, and with that, I'm going to reach over to my co-host. Will Hardy and ask him to give a little bit of insight into what it means and what it looks like and some of his experiences over the last several years where he's seen this play out.
Well, and enmity with God has to do with, you know, to oppose or be in opposition against. and all of the believers. that come into fellowship. You know, we have to understand what the standard is. The standard is already has already been established by the Word of God.
So that's our standard. Anything. That opposes that standard is against. God's thinking, God's teaching. And what God wants to instill within us spiritually.
So we have an obligation as a kingdom citizen. to abide by that standard. And that standard sets the tone. for everything that we do and say.
So, if we are not in alignment with God and his standard, Then the default. is to be aligned and go by our own standard or the worldly standard. And when we do that, of course, we will be in. opposition against God.
So when we talk about enmity, that's what we're referring to. And of course, the Apostle Paul talked about this. And we can get into this a little later in Romans chapter 7. You know, when he's talking about those things. that I would want to do, I don't do.
And then those things that are don't want to do I do.
So that is in direct conflict. Spiritually. He was in conflict spiritually saying that. This body that I'm in is forcing me. to do certain things that I don't want to do.
And of course, the whole factor of that is sin.
So the question, I guess, to the panel here is... How do you see? the church in today's time changing. and how are individuals who you might be encountering Changing with respect to aligning themselves more with the world. Rather than aligning themselves with God.
My first. Thinking in this, in response to this, is and enmity was kind of a new word to me. And I had to read the verse in James 4:4 a couple of times, really getting my head around it. One of my concerns. or I guess senses that I'm seeing a lot of in these days.
uh or people that are Um chameleon Christians. In that they're not just following a set of guidelines or rules or accepting these new ways and these laws that are outside of God's. Uh laws. But they're somewhat chameleon Christians in the sense that If I'm at a church that's preaching the truth of God, God's word, I'm in that, I agree with that, I raise my hand, I take notes, and all that. But if I'm in with a different group of people, That are living with an alternative view of that.
I'm relational to that. I understand that. And it's almost like blessed are the peacekeepers. I'm just trying to, you know, make sure I blend in and don't offend anybody.
So, but I think the truth is, what we're talking about is you can't be on the fence. You've got to be on one side of this or the other. You're either obedient to the word and you're obedient to the law. It doesn't mean you're ugly and mean about it, it just means. These are the guidelines that God set that I'm adhering to and following as He set them in His word, which is what stood the test of time for several thousand years.
But I sense a lot of conversations taking place from church people, American Christians, that are becoming more tolerant. And what's happening is that's coming into the church more and more, and it's affecting the church. I've seen churches leave their denominations over it. And that's a concern. The whole I'm becoming more lenient.
I'm becoming more tolerant, but it's affecting me to where I'm becoming a friend of the world. And that's where. You're becoming an enemy of the world, whether you want to hear that or not. Oh, and that's not easy for some people to accept. Yeah, I think you're spot on, Pastor Ken.
It seems as though we live in a time now.
Well, the church is almost, you know, being acceptable to lukewarm Christians. and and and we know that you know god say i spew you out of my mouth and And the Bible tells us: you know, be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing. Of your mind. And there is, you know, theologians when they try to dissect.
Some of this scripture in James, you know, 4 and 4, when, you know, the world is not. The physical aspect of it. That's not the world that's being indicated. But it's more so, I've read it like this before, is more so identified as a condition. Which means that it's something, you know, mentally, you're thinking as the world thinks, or which causes you to act as the world thinks, and it's starting to infiltrate your heart.
So your carnal mind, and you're starting to go outside of what we know to be as followers of Christ. Um so but the but I guess the The encouraging thing about that, if we're going to identify this worldly thinking or this aspect that James is talking about as a condition, we know that conditions can be fixed, conditions can be healed.
So, no matter where you are, as long as you have breath in your body, it's encouraging to our other Christian folks that you can be transformed and go back to the ways of the way that you know we should think.
So, that's an encouraging part about it. But when you think about being an enemy of God and how this translates to a deep condition, it starts off as identifying you as an adulterer. Which also goes and shows you how important it is to be intimate with God. If you're going to be identified as an enemy, as an adulterer, that means that, you know, we know as married men, you know, that's that you walk in my house and, you know, and the one whom I am intimate with finds out that I'm in an adulterer's condition, you know, that's cause for separation. And we just don't want to be separated from God.
So your condition that you're in are causing you to be separated from God. And he's saying, you know, come back. We've drawn you back. Be enemies of this world. You know, do away with this condition that you're in and come back to me.
The one who to love first. Why, Roy?
Well, that's very good builds, gentlemen. One of the things I wanted to do was just share with you some of the thoughts that I had looked up earlier as we were going around this with the whole enmity with God thing. And one of the things that came up in some of the research is rebellion. And I think that's exactly what this is: rebellion for the cause of acceptance. And that's the reason people are lining up to Ken's earlier comment.
You know, when I'm in church, raising my hand, praising God, and I believe all the things that I'm hearing, but then when I get around another group of people, Then I'm accepting, acknowledging, and empathetic to their cause or to their way of life rather than loving the person, but speaking. Truth against or for the activity that's going on.
So I really think it's an acceptance issue, and why we've really gotten into this place that we are, and it's a rebellion against God. And I think I had a conversation earlier this week on a different topic, but my heart has always been there is a right and a wrong. And with this conversation I was having, it was mentioned there's a context that has to be taken into about everything when you look at an evaluation. But this is one of those things that it doesn't matter what the context is. If it's a direct conflict against God's word, then you're at war with God.
You're an enemy of God. And I think when we think about those things, and we truly, in this society specifically, we're at a place where everything goes: as long as it feels good, you can do it. And there's, you know, don't hurt me. I won't hurt you. I won't say anything against you.
But yet, in that whole mindset, in that way of doing things and thinking that way, we're really positioning ourselves to be an enemy of God. Because we're not standing on the righteousness and we're not standing on his word, and we're not standing for his laws of being a follower of Christ. And, you know, it's you think about sexual promiscuity when you're talking about adultery, Michael. You know, we're going through Hosea now, you know, in our night, the Wednesday night Bible study, and it talks about that. You know, when Israel broke away or were doing things against God, they were at enmity with God.
And then he you know basically was treating them and talking in the prophetic uh book about it basically being as an adulter. Or to God. They were committing adultery because they were worshiping other gods. They were breaking the vows of their relationship. With God.
And so I think that's what in modern-day society, we don't talk like that. We don't have those conversations very often. And I believe that this is why God put on my heart about this. And I think you guys share the same sentiment based on your reception to the topic and the way you've already approached it. I believe we've got a lot of learning to do, and then we've got a lot of teaching, a lot of coaching to do.
So, how about you, Will?
Well see, the the whole idea, I think too. Roy and what all the panel here is talking about. Is that, and I know from a pastoral point of view, A lot of pastors are allowing themselves to be compromised. For the simple fact that we don't want to lose members because you know, that that's just not setting well. You know, with us, so we're not going to preach hell, or we're not going to talk about this or that subject, which you you know, someone in the congregation may appear as sensitive.
Just this week, I was talking with one of the individuals. In the jury room. And of course, I can't talk about the case that I'm on right now, obviously. But I was talking with one of the individuals in the jury room, and they were saying they went to a certain church in. Uh-huh.
Greensboro that I'm not going to mention. And they said during the service, the pastor put up a picture. of his Daughter. that was in a uh Harry Potter outfit going out trick-or-treating and she felt offended. by that, you know, because that was something that she viewed as witchcraft and things like that.
And so, you know, she was saying that I'm going to look for another church. based on that.
So, you know, when I thought about that, and then I'm thinking about the conversation that we're having today, saying, so how then would that affect others who may not have spoken up? but maybe have the same viewpoint. And then you have the other side of that picture. Where people are saying, well, we can look at something like this as being rather innocent. You know, so the question is: are we allowing ourselves to be compromised?
By Dressing up our child in such a costume. And we are born again believers or. Are we saying simply that, you know, this is just something that is really not going to affect my spiritual health. At all. Because I'm rooted and grounded in the truth.
And you know, it's just a Halloween costume.
So I'd like to get your thoughts on that. with Ken and Michael. Yeah, I can chime in on that. You made some very, you know, uh intriguing points uh past the wheel. And and one of the things that um that I've come to to realize that there are some people who may have a strong No relationship with God, you know, truth in their walk.
And they may say to you, Mitchell, like, oh, it's okay for me to dress this way, or it's okay for me to. you know, to to have this, you know, or or do that. on because they don't feel like it's affecting their relationship. With God, but Even if it's not, one thing that we're not properly identifying, I don't think, is that how is affecting your witness?
So, you may be still drawing close and know this, you know, you can listen to this or you can watch this and may not be affecting your walk. Are you not being effective in your discipleship? Are you not being effective in your witness? Because the person you go and try to draw from that, who that particular thing is drawing them further away from Christ, are they really going to listen to you? You know, can you really be a true witness?
So, even if you feel it as though it's not affecting your wall, it absolutely is affecting your witness. What about you, Pastor Ken? I agree 100% with what Michael just said about it affecting your witness. I, as we were talking about this, I just kept thinking about the. Will, you'll you'll remember probably as a as a Um Pastoral ministries, the seeker-friendly church.
We're basically we we don't want to offend anybody. In any way, so we want to be very loving and open, and that really. Is has diluted. We've talked about it over these last few minutes, but it is affecting the effectiveness of the church, the witness of the church dramatically.
So I can't help thinking about the Gravitron tonight. You remember the ride at the fair? Yeah. Centrifugal force. That thing would spin around and the floor would drop out and stick you to the wall.
That's a little bit what we're talking about, though. The way of the world, it is a force that pulls you away from the center point, God. And it is, there is a spiritual central force that pulls people away. And I think that that is compromise to what we know is true. If a bad word slips out, or I look at a woman in the wrong way, these types of things, I should feel that inside my.
My heart. Um, I should feel that nudge from the Holy Spirit that says that's not for you. You know, you're called to be set apart from the world.
So, yeah, centrifugal spirit. That's my new topic: spiritual centrifugal force. That's a mouthful. There you go. All right, Roy, what about you?
Well. That's a great question, Will. I find myself having been on both sides of that fence, funny enough. You know, when I was early on in my walk. You know, we didn't see a real big issue with Halloween because I was, it was, it was an innocent thing, just like, you know.
you guys mentioned it was an innocent thing. But then as I got to looking at it, I thought, you know, this is truly the wrong celebration. Hence, become trunk or treat, you know, and then that became the place we took our kids and became a part of.
So. I don't know. I'm a firm believer that everyone should have a conversation with someone that's been offended. You know, at least to settle the waters down and ask to get their insight on where they were coming from in that conversation and showing that picture. But equally as much so that this parishioner should go speak with her pastor and say, you know, this really bothered me.
And you know, this is where I felt offended. I felt like it was inappropriate, et cetera, et cetera. And then allow her pastor a chance to respond. And then, if she feels like God's leading her to a different church, so be it. You know, then God truly has done her part as a follower of Christ.
She's approached the person who has offended her, she's asked for a conversation. and then then she has an opportunity to let the Holy Spirit move on her.
So, I think from that particular situation, that's what comes to mind, Will, is that that would be my approach.
Now, I may very well stay on course and after having the conversation, still go ahead and leave if I wasn't satisfied. But I think, in fairness to the pastor, fairness to everybody around the church, and to her colleagues in church and her. Um the other people that are friends. That would be the best step. to start.
And I know I was going to say, Roy, because the gospel. It offends you. And it will offend you.
So, if we can't grasp and understand that. then I think we're holding on to something that we don't want to lose. Because the The offensive nature of the gospel is such that to bring you to an understanding. of first of all, who you are and who you worth serving before you start serving the Lord Jesus Christ.
So it's just like the law. The law couldn't say, but it showed us exactly who we are. You know, as individuals.
So with that. Showing You know, and looking ourselves in the mirror, as the Apostle Paul says, I'm looking in the mirror, you know, and I'm seeing this person. Who is this guy, you know, that I'm looking at in the mirror?
So we should have that understanding first and foremost. that the gospel will offend you.
Now. Once you have gotten over that hill...
Now the question is, is Am I going to allow myself to be separated?
So that It doesn't pull me back over the hill. where God had just delivered me from.
So, you know, that's the, I think, the forward that we need to look at. as kingdom citizens because You know, we belong to a higher kingdom. And you know, we talk about this in the breakfast meeting all the time: that we need to adhere to our purpose. And that's again John 18:37. When Jesus was up against Pilate, and Pilate was questioning his kingship.
Jesus said for this Reason. Was I born in. For this cause came I into the world to basically testify to the truth. And as Kingdom citizens, that's what we do. We testify to the truth, and the truth is going to offend you.
It simply will do that. I think She was offended. Not because of what the truth that may have been mentioned or attempt to be mentioned in justifying the position because you know she said that I did send the email to the pastor but she hadn't heard a response back. When I was talking to her.
So she did do that. And I was curious to know that, but I never followed up. Because she didn't get selected to sit in the jury box.
So I think You know, when we have that understanding, that will Broughton. Our understanding on where we stand. and then where we need to go from there.
So if she hears back. from the pastor, that'll be a good thing.
So that's something I guess that I'll never know because I don't have any way to be in contact or communicate with her. But you were saying something else, Roy, before I jumped in there. No, I my no you did fine, Will. I didn't wasn't anything I was going to flow until I think I was getting ready to actually turn it over to you. But what uh looks like we're coming up on our first time on our first window of opportunity here for our first session.
So, part two will be more examples of this enmity with God.
So With that, we want to thank you as our listeners for joining us. Thank you for taking time with us. We hope you're enjoying the subject matter, and we hope that it's challenging you as the listener and follower of Christ. Are you in a position that you're showing enmity with God or for God? Are you being the enemy of God and not really recognizing or refusing to recognize it?
And we'll give you some more examples of that in part two.
So with that. Michael, would you like to close us out in prayer? Absolutely. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time of fellowship. We thank you for how you're using.
These mighty men of God, Father God. And as we dig deep into your word, Father God, we pray that you just give us revelation knowledge that we may share with the listeners, Father God, that we may share to those who want to draw closer to you. Just continue to use us in a mighty way. We praise you and we thank you in advance, but all these things we ask you of God.
So, in Jesus' name, we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. As we conclude today's show.
Talking and Walking Christian Men's Ministry is building a community of men to be servant leaders in their home, schools, churches, and work environment. Visit our website for upcoming events and regular scheduled meetings. And don't forget to send us an email. for topics that you would like us to visit in the future. Thank you for joining us today on Man Talk.
That website again is tawcmm.com. Men walking the talk.
