Dealing with Doubts - Jesus, You, and Experiential Evidence, Part 1

Can we know that Jesus really existed? I mean, what evidence is there to support His existence and His outrageous claim that He was God? Well, today we'll begin to answer that question.

You don't want to miss it. Welcome to this Edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. We are a discipleship ministry devoted to helping Christians worldwide live out their faith for the glory of God and the benefit of all people. Well, as many of you know, Chip's our regular Bible teacher. However, in this series Dealing with Doubts, he's asked his friend John Dickerson to co-teach and offer his unique insights and perspective. For those who don't know, John is an award-winning journalist, author, and lead pastor at Connection Point Christian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

His focus during this series will be to examine the historical proof that affirms the truth of the Bible, while also highlighting how Christianity has positively impacted our society. With that, let's join John for his first message, Jesus, You, and Experiential Evidence. I want to start off with something that I can guarantee you and I have in common, and it is this. You want to be happy. I want to be happy. We all want to be happy.

And here's what I mean. I don't just mean that fleeting moment when your team wins the big game. You have that moment of happiness.

But I'm talking about something more significant. I'm talking about lasting internal fulfillment. I mean that deep inner peace. We all want it and we all chase it in different ways. Now, when I was a kid, I was absolutely certain how to achieve fulfillment. It was a very simple path.

It was very clear in my mind. It was anything with four wheels, a car, a truck, a tractor. I'm a car guy to an extreme. And when I was a kid, every birthday, every Christmas, all I wanted was die-cast metal car models or tractors or trucks. And then as I got older, I added on subscriptions to Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Hot Rod Magazine, Hot Rodder Magazine.

I am not exaggerating. I don't think I would know how to read today if it wasn't for fine automotive journalism. And I just knew my whole childhood, if I can work with cars when I grow up, that's it. Like that's heaven.

What else does a person need in life? I graduated with my journalism degree at age 20. And by age 23, I was the editor of a newspaper in Scottsdale, Arizona. And being the creative person that I am, I've figured out a way to be in charge of the press fleet. What is the press fleet, you might ask? It is the motor pool that all the manufacturers, Jaguar, Porsche, Range Rover, BMW, Audi, whenever they have a new model, they pick a certain number of those for journalists to drive and write about.

So I was in charge of the press fleet for the newspaper that I worked for. What this meant was that as a 23-year-old, I could not go and rent an economy car because I wasn't 25, but all I had to do is send an email and a brand new Audi RS4 or whatever else I was in the mood for would come and be delivered at my door, I kid you not, with a full tank of gas. I could drive it for one week or two or three, then I would write my column about it and then I would say what I want next. Let's go with a supercharged Range Rover.

Let's try that. And that was literally my life for a number of years, and there's a picture of me at the wheel of one of those Audis. Here's what I learned during that time. One, cars are awesome. Two, I also learned that if I was having a really bad day, let's say my girlfriend just broke up with me, and I slid into the leather seat of an AMG Mercedes with a sticker price of $146,000, it was still a really bad day. And I learned that if I had an entry-level economy car that I was testing that week, one where you close the door and it sounds like a tin can and the windows roll up, in fact, when the first hybrids came out, I remember the first Honda hybrid, it was Phoenix, Arizona, I stopped at a stoplight, it was 115 degrees out, and the air conditioning turned off because I hadn't yet figured out how to have a hybrid where the AC station was a little bit out, how to have a hybrid where the AC stayed on.

Anyhow, I'm getting a little detailed here. Point is I learned this, even if it was a really terrible car, but I was having a good day and I was fulfilled in purpose and significance, then I was still just as happy. You know, I got what I had always wanted, and I found that I was thirsty for something more. I wonder, have you ever felt that way? Where you give everything you can to get a relationship or a promotion or a home or some achievement or some possession, and it's not that the thing is necessarily a bad thing, but you finally get what you wanted and you find that you're still unfulfilled.

I wonder if you can relate to that. Maybe you thought having a baby would make you happy and instead all it did is make you sleep-deprived. Maybe you thought the promotion at work would make you happy and instead it's just made you more stressed because now you're always thinking about work and there's so much responsibility with it. Maybe you thought, oh, the bigger house, that'll be the thing, and you got the bigger house and now it's like, oh man, maintaining and cleaning and paying the bills on the bigger house? Maybe this wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Maybe you thought, if I can marry that amazing person, that'll be happily ever after.

And you get married and it's beautiful, but it turns out to be a lot of work and a lot of hurt feelings along the way. If we live long enough, we all experience this feeling of this lack of fulfillment, even after chasing fulfillment with all that we have. Well, I wonder, would you like to discover today how you can find fulfillment that lasts? Would you like to discover today how you can find that kind of inner peace that whether you're getting into an economy car or the relationship didn't work out or the promotion didn't go through, you're okay?

And that even when those things do go through and they're good but not as good as you thought they'd be, you have something else inside. Would you want that today? I want to take you today into the definitive feature of Jesus' teaching. You see, Jesus claims over and over again that he can give you life to the full.

And this is one of the unique things about Jesus. Of all the people in human history, he did not claim to just be a good teacher or a profound spiritual guru or someone who could help you improve your life. He claimed that he is almighty God. He claimed that he's the one who spoke the universe into existence and that he designed you and that he alone can fulfill you and that he freely offers that to you. These are radical claims from a real person who actually lived. And I found as a skeptical journalist, I started at the very beginning, did this guy even live? And once I decided, okay, he lived, then I looked, can we know what he said? And once I, okay, these words are reliable. This is what he said. Then I started to look at these words and I thought, this guy's either crazy or he's actually God.

There's not really a lot of room in the middle because look what he says here in John chapter 10 to you. He says, I've come that you might have life and have it to the full. I mean, who else talks like that? Think about this. This is a real person. Can you imagine being at like a party with some friends and you sit down with a drink and some guy sits down next to you and he turns to you and says, hey, I've come that you might have life and that you might have life to the full.

You'd be like, what are you talking about? Jesus talked as if he's the creator of the universe. He claims that he's a source of fulfillment that never runs out. Listen to this in John 4, he put it this way, whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst again. He's talking about this very thing that I was talking about with the press cars where it's like, man, it's fun to drive a new car every week and not have to pay anything for it, but there's something deeper.

And we've all been there where you get the car or the house or whatever else and then after a few months or a few years, it's like, well, what's next? And Jesus makes this claim. He says, if you will receive me into your life as God and experience me, you'll find the one source of water that you never thirst again.

Radical claims, but are they actually true? And that's what I want to encourage you to genuinely ask yourself today. Could Jesus give you a lasting fulfillment? That nothing else and no one else can give to you?

What if he could? I spent probably, if you count my college years all the way through my journalism career, more than 10 years researching the existence of Jesus and then the ancient manuscripts. I'm such a nerd that I went and learned ancient Greek because I wanted to know, like, can we trust this thing that's called the Bible? Have they fiddled with the original language?

Have they been with the original language? And I'm such a nerd. I compiled so much evidence and I found that it all falls into really three basic categories. There's ancient evidence. Ancient evidence would be things like Josephus and Suetonius and Tacitus, non-Christian writers of Jesus era who described this Jesus of Nazareth who claimed to be God. And when I found those ancient writings and ancient artifacts, it affirmed to me the church didn't make up this Jesus guy.

He clearly lived. And there's all sorts of ancient evidence, but then there's external evidence. External evidence is really the human record from the time Jesus was born until now that we can measure objectively how he has impacted humanity. For example, every time you're filling out something online and you have to put in your birthday and it asks you the year that you were born, why does that year start with a 1900 or a 2000 when we know that humanity goes back far longer than that? Because the year zero on our calendar is the year when Jesus was born.

And that's how profound his impact is on our world, that every time an atheist writes their date, they're actually referencing Jesus. And there's all sorts of external evidence, and we'll get into that throughout this series. But today I wanna talk with you about something that I call internal evidence. Now, first, internal might sound subjective. And in a sense, internal is subjective.

But here's the thing, you're the subject. There are claims that Jesus makes that you'll never know if they're true or false unless you try them. For example, in the word of God, God tells us this, you will seek me and you will find me if you search with all your heart. And I reached a point in my quest for fulfillment, in my research of Jesus, where I realized that, yes, it is intellectually valid. Some of the most brilliant people who've ever lived have been followers of Jesus.

For example, Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, C.S. Lewis, you don't have to be dumb to believe in Jesus. It's intellectually valid.

However, there comes a point where it has to move from the head to the heart. And I realized as I read these claims of Jesus that I'm never gonna know for sure if they work or not unless I try them. You're listening to Living on the East Side of the Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram, and we'll get back to our guest teacher, John Dickerson, in just a minute. But let me quickly ask, do you know someone who's a skeptic? Maybe it's that close friend or family member who genuinely doubts the truth of the Bible or the existence of Jesus. Well, stick around after the teaching to hear about a resource bundle we've put together that'll provide answers and direction for that doubter in your life. But for now, here again is John. Hey, here's what I mean. As a news reporter, I learned early on, right when I finished my undergrad, my first newspaper editor assigned me to write a story about skydiving in Arizona.

He said, John, I don't want it to just be a human interest story. I want the statistics. What percentage of people die? How high do they bounce off the ground if their parachute doesn't open? That's how twisted my newspaper editor was, okay? Arizona is a skydiving mecca, and that's where I live.

There's no clouds, and the weather's good. And so I did all this research. And he said, okay, John, now that you've done everything about the statistics, the facts, I want you to go and go skydiving yourself. And I want you to weave that into the story and describe what is it like. And I learned that as an investigative reporter, that there was the intellectual side to a story, but then there was the experiential side to every story. For example, whenever I was covering crime, no, I would not go and do the crime, if that's what you're thinking, okay? But I would have sources who would get me into the drug house where the heroin was sold so I could see it. I would ride along with the police officers who covered those beats.

Why? Because there's part of any story that is fact, and there's part of any story that you've got to just be there to really know the truth of what's going on. And I reached this point in my investigation of Jesus where I needed to do a ride along.

I needed to test for myself to see if these claims were actually true. So I grew up in Michigan, and we would often go camping up in Canada. And when we did, there was this massive lake up there called Lake Matanenda. And there's a waterfall, a stream that runs into the lake. It's probably considered a river here. And it would vary in width depending on what year and how full the river was. This picture is a year where the river was a little bit lower and it wasn't as wide. But on one particular year, I was about nine years old, and my three older brothers, they're all incredibly athletic. They're jocks.

And I know what you're thinking. I did not get the gene, okay? I didn't get that gene.

I got the nerd gene instead, okay? But we were at this waterfall. And as you can see in the picture, about halfway down, this waterfall goes down these stairs, and they're probably each, I don't know, six to 10 feet high if you're up close to the waterfall there. And in the middle, there's this pool, and then the waterfall begins again.

Well, we were kind of fishing and setting up for a picnic. And one of my older brothers, incredibly athletic guy, decided at the top of the river where the water looks very smooth that he was gonna inch his way across and just kind of demonstrate that he was stronger than the waterfall. I'll never forget because I saw him out of the corner of my eye. One minute I see him, and the next I just hear this whoosh whooshing noise. And I look back and he's gone. I mean, like that, the waterfall had taken him down a number of those steps, and in the middle where there's this big pool, the water's just going straight down. It's burying. And my other brothers, we run there, and we're waiting like, is David's head gonna pop up out of the water?

And we keep waiting, and his head's not popping up. And now, if any of you are a youngest and you grew up in a small home and you always had to share a bedroom, you probably know what I was thinking at that moment. It's true.

I'm a terrible person. I was thinking, if he doesn't pop up, I'm gonna get his bedroom. He did pop up, and he lived, and everything was fine. But here's the thing. My brothers and I, we will never again underestimate the power of moving water. We've learned that no matter how strong you are, if you step into a powerful current, the current is gonna take you where the current is going. And it's a great picture, because in life, we all get carried along by different currents. Sometimes we step into the current of popularity, or the current of achievement, or the current of material possessions, or the current of relationship, and we think it's gonna take us one place, but we don't realize it's taking us somewhere else.

We all seek to be happy. We all seek to be at peace, but so often we find ourselves in these currents that are taking us out of happiness. They're taking us into anxiety, and it's like we can't even get out. You know, every drug addict who has ruined their life and their relationships and their career, they don't start off by saying, hey, I really want to ruin my life and family and career.

They start off thinking this feels good, this helps, and I know some other people can't control it, but I can, and the current's not gonna take me where it takes everyone else. None of us, you know, plan to ruin our lives or plan to be unfulfilled, but there's all these raging currents. We step into the current of our dream career or our dream car or our dream partner, and a lot of those things are not bad things.

They just don't take us where we thought they would take us. In my life, I spent a lot of years, really my college years all through my 20s, looking at the different currents of life. I'm an analytical person, and I know it sounds nerdy and weird, but I kind of launched out at age 17 from my home of origin to just study, like, what path actually leads to fulfillment?

What path am I going to choose for my life? And I figured instead of just trying them all, I could look at other people, let them get tossed around in the white water, and decide what current leads where, and then be intentional about what to step into. I know that's kind of analytical and nerdy, but that's part of my journey. Here's something I realized along the way. I'll never know for sure if the current of Jesus can carry me to fulfillment.

I'll never know that for sure unless I get into it. There's so much that I can observe from the riverbanks, and I did a lot of observing from the riverbanks. Did this guy live? Have his followers been good wherever they've gone around the world? Has it been generally a good thing for humanity? And then as I got to know followers of Jesus today, there was this fulfillment.

There was this peace. But I got to a point where I realized I'm never going to know for sure unless I step in for myself. And here's what I want to ask you today. Could Jesus give you the fulfillment that nobody else and nothing else can? And the answer is you'll never know unless you try it. Bible?

What would you say? Join pastor and award-winning journalist John Dickerson as he explores these complex topics. Drawing on evidence from various credible sources and the impact Christians have had throughout history, John builds a credible case for believing in Jesus. Our hope is that as you listen, you'll be able to confidently say, Jesus is real, the Bible is true, and I can prove it.

In fact, we have some valuable tools to back you up. Anytime John or Chip mention a book, podcast, or article in this series, you can easily find it on our resources page at livingontheedge.org. We want to equip you with practical Bible-centered materials to use personally or share with others.

So check out the resources page at livingontheedge.org today. Well, Chip's joined me in studio now. And Chip, you know, I'm sure we all know someone who's cynical of or even hostile towards the claims of the Bible. So take a minute, if you would, and explain how John's testimony in his popular book, Jesus Skeptic, will help us better defend our faith. Well, Dave, John comes from a background actually where it was a very religious background and pretty rigid in some ways.

And he actually went through his own season of, I don't know if I can believe all this. And he happens to be very smart, decided to take up a life as a journalist and actually won the Brokaw Award, very prestigious of the top investigative journalist in America. And it was on that journey that John decided, I'm not going to take other people's word for things. And so firsthand research, he doesn't look at the quotes in the back of books.

He goes and reads the very firsthand research or he goes to the actual places. And so I found this young friend who was a millennial, who was very, very smart, who'd done a lot of research. And what I realized was as I listened to the world that I'm in, and I go to a church with a lot of very, very young people, and I see their worldview, I recognized John basically is speaking their language and answering the questions that they have. And some of our history is just completely buried or part of what the Bible says has been really, what can I say, it's been tilted in ways and bent in ways to make it sound very ugly and very unlike Jesus. And so my heart's desire was that people would get to know someone who is smart, who's academic, who's an absolutely committed Christian, who did the firsthand research.

And I will guarantee this. This is the kind of book that you need to sit down with the younger people in your life, read together, and have a discussion. And I think all parties concerned, young and old, will have a number of aha moments and realize the power of love and truth and justice and compassion that we take for granted that we're all birthed out of a Christian framework and worldview. Well, because we believe so strongly in sharing your faith with the next generation, we've bundled two of our more popular resources together to help. The first is this book, Jesus Skeptic, and the other is Chip's work, Why I Believe. We pray that together these tools will prove that Jesus is real and the Bible is true and showcase the profound ways Christianity has shaped our world for the better. Learn more about this bundle by calling 888-333-6003 or by visiting LivingOnTheEdge.org.

Have listeners tap special offers. Well, with that, here again is Chip. Well, thanks, Dave.

Right now I'm joined by our longtime friend John Dickerson. And today you talked about the idea of fulfillment and the many things that offer satisfaction and inevitably leave us wanting. If you were sitting with a cup of coffee with one of our listeners and you had just one takeaway, what would you want to share with him?

Yeah, Chip, you know, here's what I'd want to share. And I have to believe in this moment that there's a person who God is speaking to you through the message you just heard. You, if you're honest, have never really tried Jesus. You've never, with abandon, jumped into the middle of the river to let the current carry you. You've tried other things for fulfillment, but if you're honest, you've never really tried Jesus. If I was sitting across from you right now with love in my eyes and with the best of intentions in my heart, I would say to you, please, for your own good, give Jesus a try. I mean, really give it a try. You've tried other things to lead you to fulfillment.

They haven't worked. Would you really give Jesus a try? Really call out to him in a way that says, Jesus, if you're God, if you're there, I want to know you.

I want to experience you. The other thing I'd say, Chip, is I have to believe that a lot of people listening to this are followers of Jesus. And I know in my life that I need regular times where I examine myself and ask myself the honest question, what am I really looking to to deliver fulfillment in my life? And I know for many of you listening, if you're honest, I have many days where I say, wow, if I'm honest, it's my financial security or it's a relationship or it's consistency in my job.

And while those things aren't evil, they can't deliver what Jesus can. So for those of you listening, you've known the freedom that Jesus can offer. You've jumped into the river, so to speak. You've trusted in him for your forgiveness.

You've experienced that. I want to encourage you today, be honest with yourself. Are you really looking to Jesus or has maybe life gotten a little dry, a little apathetic, a little stale because you've been looking to something else?

And if so, you know, just return to him, return to him, seek him, and you'll find him once again. Encouraging word, guys. Thanks. As we close, I want to thank each of you who makes this program possible through your generous giving. 100% of your gifts go directly to the ministry to help Christians live like Christians. Now, if you found this teaching helpful but aren't yet on the team, consider doing that today.

Sending a gift is easy. Go to livingontheedge.org or call 888-333-6003. That's 888-333-6003, or visit livingontheedge.org. App listeners, tap donate. And let me thank you in advance for doing whatever the Lord leads you to do. We'll listen in next time as our guest teacher, John Dickerson, picks up in our series, Dealing with Doubts. Until then, this is Dave Druey saying thanks for joining us for this Edition of Living on the Edge.