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So what are some of the best pretrip arguments that have been offered is time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown friends Michael Brown here light it is always to with you were excited about the release next week of our book.
I say our professor Craig Keener.
Yours truly, not afraid of the antichrists why we don't believe in a pretrip rapture during the interview with Prof. Keener yesterday and what I want to do today is interact with some of the best arguments for the pretrip position is not to prove my point. This is not to say we're right. This is to interact. This is to say I appreciate the argument, but here's why I differ with it.
I asked for folks to post on Facebook and twitter so will be taking calls today. I do plan as the book is released next week to take calls have a pretrip calling day when you can call in and represent your position, but I won't be taking calls today if you'd like to order the book together with the interview I did yesterday with Dr. King or you can do that at that package exclusively our website. Good asked Dr. Brown a SK DR Brown.org and you'll see again as you read the book. If you heard the interview yesterday.
Our hearts are not to be argumentative or divisive just S many people are zealous, and present the pretrip view. This is what we hold to a very excited about it. We don't hold to that were excited about what we believe Scripture teaches regarding the return of Jesus. So when everybody work these things out come to their conclusions. We don't divide over these issues.
If you missed yesterday's broadcast. In short, Prof. Keener and I were both saved in churches that taught a pretrip rapture. That's what we learned will be learning the gospel right in the beginning and then over the process of time studying Scripture for ourselves. We concluded that that was not taught in the Bible. Rather, it was something we were taught by sincere believers but it was not taught in the Bible. Do I believe that God has worked through pretrip teaching well because there many sincere followers of Jesus that hold to this, of course, he's worked through many a pretrip minister not only so, I believe he used books like the late great planet Earth. Although I differ with a lot of theology and I believe he used books like that to say God is working in history God has restored the Jewish people back to the land. The Bible is relevant for today so I'm not dismissing this is all wrong or evil, but rather not ultimately what Scripture teaches and with some potential danger because of a false hope with the idea that we might escape certain things in terms of persecution or judgment right so let me start over on Facebook and I asked folks to post what they felt were their strongest arguments for pre-tribulation rapture. Scroll down to Karen and she wrote this John 14 three. What is it St. John, 43, Jesus tells his apostles that he's going to go and prepare a place for them and for us that we will go to be with him. Karen says of Jesus is where he is going he is preparing a place for us to take us to himself. But how can the second coming. When he comes his judgment to set up his kingdom on earth when the rapture occurs will be the part preparing a place where he is the only comes to practice me returns to state the earth to stay per that with Isaiah 2620 actually says we were going to our chambers. It is prepared for us and hide until the indignation traditions passed. These are the two verses. The Lord gave me when I prayerfully asked him to reveal to me when the rapture will take place. Karen I appreciate that.
Since you feel the Lord gave you these verses that we agree. Whatever the verses say is what God gave John 14 three has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation rapture number one Jesus was telling the apostles he was preparing a place for them. That's where they have been with him. That's were all believers who have died. Up until now have been with him waiting with them. Do not let your heart be troubled, is me. Trust in God, trust also in the my father's house there are many dwelling places. If not, so what I've told you I'm going to prepare a place for if I go and prepare place will come again and take you to myself, that where I am. You may also be are you saying that this only applies for work and be with him for seven years and tribulation that that's the place he prepared for us that he was telling the apostles. Don't let your hearts be troubled. I will place prepared for the final generation where they'll go be with be with me for seven years.
While wrath is poured out on the earth as nothing to do with that whatsoever completely unrelated, unrelated to future tribulation unrelated to a seven year period.
This is a place he's prepared for us, but will be with him forever. Once I can happen schismatic 2×1st. We began to get the experience of that when we die and we go to be with them.
He has a place prepared for us. Even now, but then after he returns after his thousand year reign on the earth, the new Jerusalem that is prepare for us will come down and we will be with him in it forever as rose 2620 it's actually the exact opposite. Isaiah 2620 is one of the strongest verses in the Bible that indicates that we will be here right through any wrath go, my people, enter your roots that a special chamber prepared for us and shut your doors behind you hide for little while until the wrath this past behold idolize coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for iniquity. The earth will disclose her blood should no longer covering up her slight when God pours out his wrath on the earth at the end of the age just as he protected Israel when he poured out his judgments on Egypt and he protected Israel in the midst of that is saying go and hide in your chamber. I will protect you is not saying I'm taking you up to heaven take you out of the way by the countries of Karen.
I believe I gave those verses, but they mean the opposite of what you interpreted them to mean. And I say that with all respect and appreciate you giving this prayerful consideration. Let's see Chaz.
I've heard some great teachings on the ancient Jewish wedding customs being a revealed example of Christ and his church, including arguing for the pretrip rapture. Can you address this yet. There also. It's the opposite I've heard this teaching that if you understand the ancient Jewish wedding festivals then you'll see if Toby supports a pretrip rapture. No, actually it's quite contrary to that we see in the parable of the 10 virgins. The five whys in the five foolish virgins we see there that they go out to meet him right but only some have oil in their lamps, only some are ready okay so what happens they go out to meet him there at the bride's bridesmaids. They go out and let you think Jesus had five wives. Okay 10 wives they go out to meet him and escorted him to the bride's house, wedding, so they made him along the way and bring him there. Now what do I understand what is Prof. King understand what is the historical premillennial position which was the position of the earliest believers that the disciples of the apostles, the early church fathers. This is what they held to recall historical premillennial position that Jesus will return set up his kingdom on the earth rule and reign for thousand years. And then we going to return it but what we understand.
We understand that he will appear for all the world to see what we waiting for his secret coming invisible rapture that were waiting for his appearing is glorious appearing when he will be revealed.
That was every eye will see him okay you will appearing glory.
We will be caught up together with him resurrected from the dead and caught up to me to make alive in our glorified bodies and together descend with him to the civil that just has us turning around friends.
The pretrip rapture has Jesus turning around all right that that that's presupposed somebody's turning around, but this is not his near arrival is near coming. We are waiting for his coming. The Greek piracy as is his arrival is his glorious public arrival. He appears in the clouds. We are caught up together with them and descend together as he establishes his kingdom on the earth that it really is quite glorious. Marcel I think that the great tribulation that Christ prophesied about the Oliver discourse really took place around 70 A.D. not to say the Christians will face persecution before Christ returns. I believe the ready in many countries outside the United States.
The health and wealth gospel that permeates America seems to deceive many to thinking thoughts was betrothed for the godly God use our earthly sufferings for ultimate good or pertinent question might be what about the millennial reign of Christ. And when that happens is already happening is that after Christ returns to the amount of almost Marcel appreciate your comments and I agree that we've had a carnal gospel is often put us to sleep in the midst of a sinning world and given us the idea that we will be exempt from persecution and suffering and opposition. That being said, I believe there was great tribulation that existed before the destruction of the temple near 70. I believe this tribulation taking place around the earth today. I believe the be great tribulation, immediately before Jesus returns. But what's clear is that the prophets spoke of a literal physical reign of Jesus on the earth and the transformation of the earth and the war in the nations learning of the knowledge of God and Israel exalted, they spoke of it literally and Peter said in acts three that what the prophets spoke of what will happen. So note the millennial reign has not yet happened. We are not all millennial meaning that there is a spiritual reign that replaces the physical, there is a spiritual reign now, but there will be a physical reign on the earth.
Okay, Jim says of heard Revelation 18 for used effectively to assert that stance. Revelation chapter 18 verse four. Then I heard another voice out of heaven say, my people come out of her that you will not share in her sins so that you will not be infected by her plagues, persons, or sticky mass piled up to heaven and God is remember her crimes that would actually be a very on verse two. Use to support a pretrip rapture because this is talking about judgment on Babylon during final tribulation times.
This is talk about judgment on sinful Babylon. However, we interpret Babylon the warm debate that in telling God's people to get out of babble. So obviously the first, the rapture is not God telling you get out.
The rapture begun taking you out identifies a 26 is go hi it in in your antechamber not God's intent to take you up you go hi the same way. This is God telling us get out flee from this worldly system of this corrupt religious system or the simple place, flee get out. Don't don't participate in the sins of Babylon. So if we were ready rapture that we wouldn't be here so that that would be very odd verse of nuts engine that you haven't heard, that used but that would be a very odd verse again it's not saying I will take you out, but rather rather it is saying what you get out you flee, don't partake in the sense of Babylon and to this is taking place during what people would say is great tribulation and hear God's people are on the earth in the midst of it again.
My goal is simply an argument I goes to explain why I don't see these verses this morning fighting over you in our differences over you can bless me an argument just look at the Scriptures together will be right here on the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice is more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Looking back friends modify Michael Brown here talking about tribulation will arguments of S folks to post on Facebook and Twitter. They feel some of the best arguments for pre-tribulation rapture that I'm explaining why I don't hold to that myself if you'd like to get a copy of her new book, not afraid of the antichrist. Prof. Craig Keener and myself, together with the interview we did yesterday so package together available exclusively on our website could ask Dr. Brown.org SK DR Brown.org when you order from the website.
If you feel helpless with an additional contribution that would be greatly appreciated. We are listener. You were sponsored as a travel regulator have folks thanked me what were doing. We watch on YouTube. Read your articles. Thank you for your books for your debates is my privilege.
It's my joy it's my honor. But we do with your help we do it together as a team. That means you get to share in the reward.
So my goal here is is not to argue, but to explain and to give you a perspective that may be different than what you been exposed when I have been part of churches that strongly held true pretrip rapture of the senior leader held true pretrip rapture.
I honored that and if I differed with it. I did make that known publicly.
Why because the leadership taught one thing and if it was important to them and I differed with it that pop tart privately told them abuse. If they say they were fine with you sharing something different.
Great, if not during that time I didn't share it publicly to honor leaders will not try to be divisive. Is it will just the moment you mentioned is divisive. All why then are people out to preach another position that affects your breach pretrip adult. I can preach post trip best is that right so let's all put our views out prayerfully, scripturally, as best as we can and help people understand and sort through the issues.
My question is always, would you come to these conclusions. Would you believe that the second coming is in two parts separated by seven years, a rapture and then a second coming would you come to those conclusions.
Just reading the Bible on your own or did you have to be taught that that's that was my case, reading the Bible on my own talked about yesterday with Craig Keener step in the Scriptures, day and night, memorizing 20 versus a day I can find this I had to read other books to teach me what was once I stepped away and just read Scripture guy said I will see this in Scripture. Okay, a Jimmy said this Dr. Brown I grew up in the prep Plymouth brethren assemblies John Darby started this particular church.
As I'm sure you know is considered the father of dispensationalism. He was the one who first published this idea stems from a belief in the separation between Israel and the church. I'm been part of the church in 30 years but the way they see it. Pulses were not appointed to wrath the believers can experience were not appointed to so the seven year tribulation is God's wrath being poured out on the earth. The church would have to be removed before the spirit because the church is under the wrath of God.
Jesus took that for her and to poured out once again on those recovered be impossible.
Christian suffering as they have since the first century is experience God's wrath at suffering the world's wrath tribulation is unique and I got a stretch in the world, specifically bring Israel to himself and summing up man's rain. The view only works if a certain view of Israel, the church is true Jimmy very well articulated and are absolutely right. But let me focus on that idea that without appointed director, Paul writes that to the Thessalonians in first Thessalonians 1 were not appointed to wrath. If without appointed to wrath.
How then can be here be here during the seven year tribulation. God pours out his wrath on the earth a problem number one with is that Paul was writing to the Thessalonians in the first century, right, and in those verses have applied to believers. Ever since, and yet based on the pre-tribute there only applicable to the last generation that is rescued when the wrath of God is poured out during the tribulation. Those were the means of the Thessalonians were not going to run. It was not about seven year tribulation was on that hellfire was about the wrath of God in judgment on sinners right not only so the full expression of that wrath comes at the second coming when Jesus returns. Second Thessalonians 1. Flaming fire taking vengeance on those who don't know God, so what happens is we are caught up to meet him and descend together with them as he comes wrath in flaming fire.
As for God's wrath being poured out on the earth.
Yes, it's true that we suffer the wrath of man and the wrath of Satan in every generation, but will we as God's people suffer whatever wrath from God is poured out in the AAA should know will be protected from it. Just as God protected the children of Israel when he poured out the plagues on Egypt, Israel was miraculously protected from them and by the way, if you think of Noah and the flood. God didn't take Noah out of the world they could. God did not take Noah out of the world got the flood came, and no one his family that they live all lived through it. They were in the midst of the storm they were on the waters they were here on the earth but God prepared in order for them.
God can keep us in the midst of calamity on the earth. We will not be spared from the wrath of man and the wrath of Satan wrath of God is specifically for the ungodly. And God knows I keep this people is a consistent theme in Scripture. Let's see here.
Lorraine says the 10 virgins fiber prepared and laid in five or not and are left without they had no oil we are light of the world Christians. They lost the light because they're all ran out. The Holy Spirit, I believe, number 10 represents a number half will be taken half will be left these half will overcome in the in the tribulation and make their robes white.
I appreciate the application of that Lorraine and and even seen hope for those whose oil went out but but remember what happens that that in in this parable right of the bridegroom coming that five the D's are not the brides. These are the bridesmaids and the bridesmaids go with the bridegroom to accompany him to the home of the bride that that's what happens them.
The he is going to where the bride is not taking the bride to another home in that story. There so we we don't want to misapply while they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast of the door was shut the lid of the other virgins came sensors are opened up earth but let me just take this one step further. I don't even believe that you can apply every detail of this rapture succumbing pretrip poster, but rather it's a parable to tell us to be ready. It's a parable to teach us to be ready and to be alert and to be waiting with eagerness and with expectation. That's what it's there to do you want to use the parable rightly. Let's see Jennifer growing up Southern Baptist. I was always told I didn't have to worry about end times because we won't be here for all of that as he got older and study Scripture more I believe will be midway through the tribulation will be taken relation. The church seems to be still present to the chapter about the harvest by host bullies and pretrip regardless of what it is.
Always feel I was still people God is in control. The matter when we go amen to that. Jennifer and yes, you and your husband can have different views and love Jesus together and yes, none of us know how long will live. We should all be ready to meet the Lord.
We should never think that I might meet the Lord like 50 years 30 years to undo whatever I want no we love the Lord reliving readiness to meet him whether he is coming in a day hundred years. If if the Lord said to me, not returning for 200 years that would not let make me feel any less urgent about the needs today that would not let me feel any less passionate about running my risk is only one race to run and that would not guarantee that on a live till tomorrow. I the Lord could take me home today, Riley could be persecuted and killed for the gospel tomorrow so reliving readiness and expectation. Either way, but again one of the issues that that II get into and not afraid of the antichrist. I look at the vocabulary of the New Testament. Regarding the second coming in all the verses that apply to an alleged rapture that taught that the thing that were looking forward to their comments on public some everybody sees a glorious appearing not a hidden secret rapture were so everybody's gone, what happened you know the pilots gone from their planes. Drivers gone from their cars into the way we see the dramatized know it's a public appearing that's really aren't we logging for his appearing. Are we looking for the glorious of peering a roller is that our great hope that's what were looking forward to right of Kelly Kevin to the church in Philadelphia write since you've kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Prof. Keener and not afraid of the antichrist says that this is one of the best possible arguments for pre-tribulation is your salary takes it the normal pretrip relational assumption is that Jesus will keep believers like those in the church of Philadelphia from going through the great tribulation.
He says nevertheless, this argument quickly runs into problems. What is the hour of testing, and what where they come from it elsewhere. Revelation rev 1712, the hour might refer to brief. Near the end but more often seems to refer to the very end. Revelation 1113, 14, 715 1810, 17, 19, that is the case in this context. In verse three here being kept from that hour might simply mean being spared the final judgment. The one other reference to believers being tested could by Congress refer to suffering for Christ in this age to Revelation 210. Thus, we must examine the phrase keep from this keep from being prevent one from being present during that interpretation is on possible but can it not equally mean protect from wall present. The phrase is not a common one elsewhere in biblical Greek religion resources. It appears here before because it plays on the image in the same verse of keeping God's message keeping a messages how this Greek word translated keep functions in the context Revelation, because a whole bunch of references. There is however one other New Testament use of the Greek phrase translated here is keep from that one other passage uses it to mean protect from this too is John recorded words of Jesus. John 1715.
I am not praying that you take them out of the world, rather that you keep them from the evil one. So, the wording definitely does not have to mean take out of was not interested. Revelation 1715, as those that I am I am not asking you to take them out all the world all them from Britain. The line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear Jim is Dr. Michael Brown a friend was in anticipation of our book.
Not afraid of the antichrist. Why we don't even a pre-tribulation rapture Creek Keener and myself in anticipation of the new book coming out next week refocusing on some of these issues this week and next week as well will take a lot of calls about this next week allow you to give different opinions will interact on it you can get the book together with the exclusive interview I did with Prof. Keener on yesterday's broadcast get that at our website at a discounted price. I think you be stimulated, but above all, the book will encourage you the book, not just deals with Scripture but is a book of faith is. It is a book of of of encouragement of strength of that we can endure or overcome hardship. In Jesus name that we are overcome murders in and through him nothing pretrip is don't believe that what I'm saying you'll find the book a faith building life-giving book even if you differ with our conclusions about taking calls today, but answering questions and respond to verses that have been posted on Facebook and Twitter the end of the last segment I may have reference Revelation 1715, I meant John 1715, but let's let's look at this verse. First, in Revelation. The third chapter.
The verse was raised saying hey, doesn't this point to a pretrip rapture and and it says in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10 because you did obey my message about persevering because you get my word about patient endurance. I will also keep you from the hour of trial the sky upon the whole world to test those who dwell on dear so it's a boy that's really points to a pretrip rapture that he was speaking that to the church of Philadelphia write. So in less the church in Philadelphia that he was speaking to was gonna be there at the end of the age. What was the relevance to them as first question was the relevance to that must've meant something to them in context, yes you can silver future reference to the church through the ages for the church unless generation. But what did it mean to the church of Philadelphia when Jesus spoke it the end of the first century so must've meant something that enemy could me. I'm gonna protect somebody else from his seven year tribulation. Must've meaning for them. Not only so, Prof. Keener in our book points out that the same Greek expression is used in John chapter 17 verse 15 and that is such a telling verse because here Jesus is praying for his disciples and what is he say in verse 15. I do not ask you to take them out all the world all but to protect them from the evil one right so we can be protected from trial and test in the midst of this world, a Prof. Keener also says this we expand this query to the larger context of the book of Revelation is a whole the pretrip relational interpretation becomes even more problematic.
Revelation 3 really believers taken alive from the earth. Nowhere to reread of them being rapture before the tribulation, nor do reread of Jesus coming before the tribulation. Instead, we see some believers protected from judgments Revelation 7394 but suffering in the world at the hands of their enemies he Revelation 1211 13 seven these believers like those in Philadelphia.
Keep God's message to Revelation 1217 Revelation 310 Jesus addresses a church that is been facing hardship with little strength, keeping the word was endurance. He goes on to warn them to continue to hold fast what they have.
Jesus did not preserve the Philadelphian church from eventual extinction. But as long as they persevered, he preserve them for he is faithful.
Well said Dr. Keener white. Let's go over to twitter and a TJ posted first the Slovenes 110 that we are to wait for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath again, what was the meaning of that to the Thessalonians was the Slovenes 110. What was the meaning of that to them. That is it that I future generation 2000 years later will go through the tribulation, or the coming wrath is God's wrath poured out on the city world the wrath of hell there at the final judgment that we are spared from and again when God pours out his wrath on the sending world.
If we are here we are preserved in the midst of it, and when he comes in blazing fire.
We are caught up to meet him and descend together with him. Revelation 310 codify how we just responded to. Let's see here. Edwin a Daniel 912 gives detailed account of the end of all things, down to the number of days but Jesus said, no one knows the arms coming this coming is the enemy could nose coming so we either must not be around when the seven-year treaty comes this will then be able to calculate is coming or Jesus by saying no one knows is coming is talking about the rapture I Edwin appreciate the points very much but here's Roy different number one to this moment. There is endless disagreement among church interpreters as to the meaning of many of the passages in Daniel about days and weeks.
Many of them. What exactly do they mean fruit resembles. Let's take a look in Daniel chapter 12 Daniel chapter 12 let's let's take a look there and let's let's see how much unanimity of opinion, there is on what specifically this means all will scroll down a Revelation. Daniel 1211. From the time the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days.
How blessed will anyone be who waits and arrives at the 1335 days. There's a lot of debate about what exactly does that mean what are the 1335 days that's so that's one thing.
Second, there is the assumption that in Revelation as well were numbers use that that none of them are symbolic. Revelation is filled with symbols. I know the days, months, years are not symbolic Revelation. Why are so many other things.
Symbolic Revelation, but not that of 1/3 thing is if they are symbolic event then perhaps there's not a specific seven-year tribulation are 3 1/2 year tradition of great tribulation, and the fourth thing is that that Jesus says that because of the elected days will be shortened. So you may not know exactly when to start the Even if there was a seven year. You might not know exactly when that went to start the count and end of people surrender tribulation were the greater ability. No one on this constant debate about that.
And again if the days were short 10 if the days were short then what the days are shortened then and in point of fact you, you have another dilemma you have another issue. Another problem because that you can't initially depend on the counting so I appreciate the arguments, but they really do break down in that regard of let's see here Libby books Mike.
I like ask 16 after 40 days of Lent about the caning.
The disciple still asked if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel.
Oh yes absolutely of I don't know if you raise that is a contrary argument or an agreement with me, but certainly double restore the kingdom to Israel that there will be a thousand year reign.
Jesus does not rebuke that question. It doesn't say to his disciples after the bid within 40 days after his resurrection they support you at this time to restore the kingdom to Israel is in you fools you idiot you jerks have a been with you so long to assist all earthly my mom try to get you heavenly monitors are at the Myers O'Connor what you think and what you doing now. He says you know the answer that you know the times that the father's appointment do it's just you focus on preaching the gospel that's that's what he says Luke 2136 of this is someone who's not a pretrip or but raises this and it's one of the verses that Prof. Keener treats as well.
Examining some treat pretrip arguments so he has this this is verse number fibroid number five that he treats pray that you may escape Luke 2136 so one thing Prof. Keener says it's possible that Jesus speaks simply of strength to endure until he comes and preserves his people from global judgment. If so, however, when does he remove them so Luke 2136 is talk about things that are coming and and and that the the judgment coming on the earth, but stay alert at all times. Pray that you may have the strength to escape all these things about the happen and to stand before the Son of Man. So he says if it means simply have the strength to endure. When does he remove them before Jerusalem, suffering or before the coming of his kingdom that destroys the kings of the earth prices. This brings us to our second observation about this passage context rules out a pre-tribulation rapture to dance who survived the traumatic fall of Jerusalem were taken prisoner and enslaved among the nations two 2124 this happen the year 70 Gentiles would continue to trample Jerusalem until the end of the times of the Gentiles.
See verse 24 at the time of dramatic signs in the sun, moon and stars. The verses 25 and 26. The terrified nations will witness the Son of Man coming in a cloud. When these events start occurring. Jesus warns your redemption is drawing near. In the same way when the signs are evident. The kingdom of God is near. Jesus did not come back soon after Jerusalem's fall, but he will come if the only coming specified in this context is this coming visible to the nations so it Prof. Kim is unpacking here is that it speaks of a post-tribulation will coming as you see all the upheaval in the chaos, then you look your redemption is drawing near. And there he is appearing as it had would really be delivered. That's that's what the text is saying again unpacking greater depth in the book Betty on poster, but the Scripture is a challenge. Matthew 1330 allow both to grow together until the harvest in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers first gather up the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them up, but gather the wheat into my barn. This is actually a post-reverse. This is actually the exact opposite crew gets taken first right will be taken ill of who gets taken the ones taken are the wicked.
Look at how Jesus explains this parable at the end of Matthew chapter 13 verse 41 of verse 40, just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire so will it be at the end of the age, the Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all the things that cause people to sin and all the people who are against his long practice lawlessness, it will throw them into a fiery furnace in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine forth as the son of the kingdom of their father. He was used to here, let him hear. So the wicked are taken, the righteous are left. The wicked are taken so that verse also supports a poster reading, not a pre-crib reading okay will come back with Daniels reference to second Thessalonians chapter 2 verses six through eight, will come back and look at that again.
Might my goal is not to win an argument. My goal is to explain why I don't believe that what happened here is what the subpoena. This is not divisive, but her job is to look at the word fresh to help us to pair a hard time in the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. I'm responding to post on twitter and Facebook last post post with a felt were the strongest arguments for a pre-crib rapture and again my goals are to be argumentative. I appreciate if you hold to a passionately different view. Let's look at Scripture together and let's agree we need to preach the gospel through dying world with the need to live in readiness of the coming of Jesus and we need to be sure that whatever comes our way. God's grace is enough to get the book. Not afraid of the antichrist which is being but we have them in stock but they're being released to the general public.
March 19 get the book together with my interview with Prof. Keener at our website Esther to Brian SK your brown dog or right so a Daniel says on twitter that reveille sees me. Second Thessalonians to six through eight points to a pretrip rapture. Now you know what withhold that he might be revealed in his time for the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now let us will let until he be taken out of the way and then shall that wicked be revealed so this is taken to mean that the church with the Holy Spirit, which stands in the way of a worldwide antichrist figure that the church will be taken out of the way and then the wicked one will be revealed a Prof. Keener deals with this as argument number 10 in evaluating some pre-crib arguments and what he says is this pre-tribulation argument would become more plausible if the passage actually identified the remove restrainer as the church or the spirit in the church, but does not. It speaks ambiguously about the restrainer appealing to the Thessalonian believers. Memory of what Paul explained to them when he was with them in mind that not even be safer Baltimore explicit in the letter, depending on the means by the restrainer that have to do something with Roman government or law or authority figure or whatever what what is that it or the thing that will be taken out of the way. He says there are in fact a wide range of views more than 30 about what could restrain the man of lawlessness were being worshiped on the other side of the temple. If Paul speaks politically, he could speak of Judean strength. The temple would be desecrated only once. Judean resistance was crushed. After this Jerusalem MySpace the new XL compare Luke 2124 press Revelation 12 six. If you speak spiritually. Some suggest he refers to Michael B guardian angel of Israel who would stand perhaps meaning out of the way when Israel would face its final tribulation for the raising of the debt something to the restrainer simply God's restraining hand, since the phrase taken out of the way can also be rendered literally come forth from the midst might refer to the presence of God leaving the sanctuary this happen before. So he gives example after example as to what he could possibly possibly mean bases this if I contrast forward. Speaking of the church being removed from the earth will have to ask how and why the saints restrain the man of lawlessness that the saints elsewhere depicted during the tribulation do not do so only throughout the book of Revelation. The saints are being killed and persecuted for keeping the commandments and gives examples throughout the book of Revelation and 13 chapter 14 chapter 16 something they think So, how is it that the saints on earth that are not restraining the antichrist. If Paul was speaking of the spirit in the church woman asked how the saints of the tribulation converted and testify for God without the Spirit. How can there be there can be profits. The idea that the church is taken out and without the Holy Spirit taken out within whose converting people during the great tribulation, and how can there be profits ministering profits Mr. by the spirit to the spirits obviously here during tribulation God's people are here during tribulation. So the question is then why aren't they stopping the antichrist.
If it's the church in spirit that stop after all the saints testify for Jesus and the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. If one argues from Psalms that the spirit is not explicitly mentioned with the saints during tribulation. What is one to make of the lack of explicit association of the spirit with them in the new Jerusalem Bible verses speak of the spirit being with the church in new Jerusalem. So discus doesn't mention the spirit by name as a means for is not active.
In fact, the passage cannot speak of the church for excess or the spirit of the church being removed before the tribulation. Because the context of the passage explicitly indicates that we will not be gathered to Jesus before the man of lawlessness appears in the seated in the temple, the passage refers to the great tribulation at all is certainly not speaking believers being exempted from it. We will discuss the relevance of sick of the saloons wanted to more fully and arguments for poster boy for gathering of believers below so that's one hell of packet even more but but let's take a look at start second Thessalonians chapter 1, second Thessalonians chapter 1, and Paul speaks there word of encouragement out. Let's go to chapter 1. First, second Thessalonians chapter 1 Paul is speaking to the Thessalonian believers in the midst of persecution and what is he say to the Thessalonian believers a beginning in verse six so.
Second Thessalonians chapter 1 verse six he says he says this year after all is right in the sight of God to pay back trouble to those who trouble you and relief to you who suffer trouble among us at the revelation of the Lord is sure, from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire you command judgment on those who do not know God and do not heed the good news of our Lord Yeshua, they will pay the price of eternal ruin away from the presence of the Lord the glory was power in that day when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones and marvelous by all who believe because her testimony she was Lisa.
That's one rest comes to them right. That's one rest comes to Thessalonians. That's when they are delivered right. This is when believers are going to be delivered when when he returns in flaming fire that's organize my while Macy is coming, delivered us that a secret event but we get deliverance when he comes in flaming fire judging the world. Now he continues into the second chapter right.
Second Thessalonians chapter 2, verse one, but in connection with or with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to him, ask you not to get shaken out of your mind to disturb you, by spirit or word, or letters as if through us, as though the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, one destined to be destroyed.
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship that he sits in the temple of God, proclaiming himself that he is God, but let's leave the text up on the screen here as I'm speaking Paul saying maybe you heard senators of Baylor came you Mr. subnotebook don't let anybody unsettled because the rebellion has to come first and the man of lawlessness has to be revealed one destined to be destroyed itself that has not yet happened. If there hasn't been this final rebellion and if there is not this antichrist. Figure right if that is not the case, then it hasn't come yet. I don't think there is some spiritual coming that you missed you say hello but that word, rebellion, apostasy.
It in Greek if if you really study that means the catching away or taking away what a point of fact, you can check virtually every major Greek lexicon, and you can track virtually every modern English translation in translation into many languages and you'll see it's rendered is apostasy not is like a catching away but but even if you try to argue it still is a work because Paul is telling them that the man of lawlessness has to be revealed and Uranus see Sophie hasn't been revealed. Haven't seen it yet and that means the day Lauriston come yet not be disturbed by these teachings is going to come in a way that's public and definite. Don't you remember that when I was still with you. I was telling you these things and you know what now holds back for him to be revealed in his own time.
So Paul must've explained. As Prof. Pierce is about 30 different interpretations of what these verses mean verse seven the mystery of lawlessness is really operating over there is one who holds back just down to these taken alloy and their many different explanations as to what that could be then the lawless Dawn will be revealed in the Lord Yeshua will slay him with the breath of his mouth wipe them out with the appearance of his coming. It's visible. The coming of the lawless was connected to the activity of Satan, etc. so easily revealed. And then Jesus is going to be revealed to destroy him and that's what we're caught up to meet him one more argument. Lewis says strong preacher volume and John McCarthy teaches it.
:-) So obviously I respect teaches the teachers I respect teachers that don't teach it, but there was a :-) the way I'm smiling back in argument I hear often is that in Revelation after the boys tells John to come appear. The church is never mentioned again the focus is completely on Israel. Therefore, the church must not be on the earth anymore so John is told. Come, appear not supposed to be symbolic of the church being caught up in Revelation 1 through three. Jesus can speak about the church is the seven churches in Revelation 2 and three to the church in Ephesus to the church in Smyrna to the church and thio Tyra right in any goes onto the seven churches in Asia minor, but there's no reference to the accuracy of the church. After that what you know there's no reference to the Iglesia in heaven either. This is no reference to Eckley's. It was the reference to ecclesia in the first chapter so much. This is writing to the church or to the church or to the church or to the church in the city to the church and that's it. That's why, but in point of fact, in point of fact, there is no reference to the Eckley see you in heaven. So if the church is taken up that Macon there's no reference to the accuracy of their and then just say Israel it's God's people that are on the earth persecuted in the midst of great tribulation and yet kept by God. We are overcome his friend. We are overcome its nothing the enemy can bring against the should intimidate us or scare us in ourselves, we are no match but in Jesus we are more than conquerors right we have our differences over these things. But I want to discuss them next week will plan on taking some extra calls, got a fascinating interview. I mean fascinating by Christian author who wants to show us how the world is getting better in the Gospels actually spreading around the earth talk with him tomorrow, Thursday, or Thursday. On Thursday, then your general questions on Friday, 4 focus mourners take more calls next week. Again, you can get the book. Not afraid antichrist on the website, together with yesterday's interview with Prof. Craig Keener, or you can get at your local bookstore next week or online vendors as well throw study to learn and this is the word says embrace. Even so, that