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March 3, 2020 4:41 pm
You be shocked you'll be amazed to hear what some great Christian leaders actually said and believe it's time for the line of fire with your host activist and author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution Michael Brown is the director of the coalition of conscience and president of fire school of ministry get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.
That's 866-34-TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown present how long that we tell the been telling you about the pushback that the radical left that those who oppose our viewpoints that Satan himself where we want to categorize things make a spiritual battle natural battle but savor one on the radical list is Satan himself, but get the point how long we've been saying that radical left is others want to silence us will overplay their hand. How long have we been telling you that and that there will be a pushback against it. What we were seeing yet another example of it.
As promised, as expected, it's good news is bad news that things have to get this far before there is a pushback which is good news that the pushback is taking place.
That's why we are introduced every day on the radio as your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution, not moral, cultural, and spiritual capitulation. That's right.
Welcome to the broadcast. This is Michael Brown use number to call 866-34-TRUTH 866-348-7884 in the bottom of the hour. I'm going to start an interview with my colleague and fellow author Frank Viola about his new book, read grace and say what what interesting title some very interesting things have been taught and believed by major Christian leaders over the years. The book subtitle with the shocking beliefs of the great Christians can teach us today.
Very interesting. So we will be we will be speaking with Frank file beginning at the bottom of the hour, but first I have some other things to share with you before I get to the pushback before I get to the good news. Let me paint a picture for you of of how extreme things are.
I did my first outreach lecture at Yale University in 1993 so that's before some of you listening were born right that's before. Probably most of the students in our ministry school were born because there you know may be close to the 20 or early 20s. Some late teens so yeah this is going back 26 years. I did my first outreach lecture at Yale University and why was there gay activism was not on my radar at that time. It wasn't until 2000 for the godly burden he to reach out to the LGBT community with compassion and resist the radical agenda with courage so 93. This was done on my radar but I was shocked to see how radical and strong. The presence of LGBT activism was on the Yale campus just visiting their being around it, talking to some of the students I was shocked that was 1993. All right, was the season he was last year you before that article came out saying that there were more students at Yale who identify as LGBT, then identified as conservative, mind-boggling. Absolutely mind-boggling. Let's look at this headline.
It's from the Federalist. And it's subtitled will the title. Excuse me, I thought I could be a Christian and constitutionalist at Yale Law school, I was wrong. It's under the category of censorship on the conservative website the Federalist. You would think that the number one law school in the country should be a cut above the rest, but it's actually an environment of intense hostility towards Christians and constitutionalist and the author of the article himself is a just identifies as Catholic. So he's he's not identify as evangelical.
He wasn't one that was like super militant aggressive at it in the school setting like this can be badly everybody he just thought number one law school in the nation are considered by many the number one law school in the nation that it would have respect for other viewpoints. Any realize that you could you could not speak up and speak out without serious consequences at Yale at Yale University. The endgame has always been silencing her viewpoint suppressing her viewpoint marginalizing her viewpoint not getting into healthy dialogue with her viewpoint not sitting down and having an exchange of views with her viewpoint, not saying look you believe this strongly. We believe this strongly. It's talk about. We believe your wrong. Let's talk about but still better than the open and honest setting. No goal is ultimately been silencing of our viewpoint. I've written about it for years I listened. I don't feel like I'm the resident. Mowing your I listen even if we were the tiny persecuted minority. My mentalities were overcome us in Jesus. My mentalities first on 54 this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. That's where we are over comers my mentalities. Nothing can separate us from the love of Messiah. My mentalities were more than conquerors. The matter what comes our way. I'm simply sound the alarm on simply being realistic here. Let's say you were the previous generation at Yale. When things were more tolerant and where the climate was somewhat different and you didn't speak up and you didn't speak out and you didn't take a stand in your administrator. Your faculty member. Your student your donor. You had similar role in the school influence role, and you didn't speak up and you didn't speak out.
Well, now there is this climate of extreme hostility for those who go there so Christian should go to okay so you abandon Yale which was founded as a strong Christian school in the late 1700s right very clear, very definite Christian goals so you get rid of that business number one seed of just abandon Yale okay what about all the people at Yale produces they go on to be presidents of the United States. They go on to be influential leaders in academia that go on and a host of different ways to have great and tremendous influence so you just just to let them be trained in the Safari.
You can't just capitulate give up territory and say okay we just leave it really what your ear's business place to place, rework the workplace as hostile to both of these leave their friends pretty. So what will will be meeting in cave somewhere simply because we chose to because all we did was retreat retreat retreat retreat is understand and speak and work to make a difference and and and persevere and pray and so seeds and and challenge false ideologies and do everything else we can do make a difference. So we'll just gonna cause it in high why the world would we do that.
It's one thing if if if some radical opposition. The system radical Islamic terrorists were coming through your neighborhood with all kinds of weaponry and and you know you're your mom home with your kids and and you've got a place in the basement. You can hide in there was gonna know it will and that makes sense if you like a fight you're with your teeth against people with all kinds of sophisticated weaponry you or to get out of there in a hurry. Jesus said in Matthew telling your persecuted one city, flee to another. There times when you do that, but what one no one right now is physically tax all in their attacks here and there they are happening with them be exposed and brought to light but for the most part is an ideological attack. For the most part it's intimidation. For the most part it's an attack on social media. It's it's an attack in the classroom. It's an attack in the workplace.
It's an attack in the schoolroom. It's an attack among peers and things like that for the most part that's the case, there is no reason for us to flee, but we need to do is take stands for but but but if I take standard may hate me. What we really promised hatred is good thing to take a stand. They may exit alienated member okay. Jesus said, will be put out the way he was a look even if it came to being killed for the gospel. We rejoice we we rejoice because were being treated the same way Jesus was treated. It's the ultimate privilege we will look for. We don't try to provoke it again. I don't have some some martyr mentality, where you know that my life has no meaning unless I'm getting attack. No, not at all perfectly happy to live a day without being slandered or maligned and perfectly happy to go on a college campus was having to police protection.
According to the campus. I'm perfectly happy to go to certain countries. I can't go to now be because of radical Islamic things of that little I am letting a lot in a perfectly happy that out of the situation. Gladly. But the fact is, were promised opposition were promised persecution were promised hatred in Jesus. If you save your life, you lose it Jewish life for my sake and the gospel you find it so we we lose our lives by bowing down to what people say we lose our lives would become slaves of public opinion, we lose our lives would become slaves of of fear of man are slaves to the praise of men refined our lives we die. That said, Lord, on your servant, your son or daughter.
I'm here to do your will, whatever the cost of the consequence and then in the midst of our weakness and strength is manifest in the midst of our weakness. Jesus is glorified you can say Laura, I'm afraid Laura and I I'm confused.
Laura I don't know how to handle these things that's fine he knows.
Anyway and then he'll give you strength. It's by his strength that we would yeah I am by nature, the type of person that will run towards conflict. I am by nature, the type of person who will see something that needs to be confronted and my tendency is to run towards that but I don't rely on that when doing spiritual battle. I don't rely on that when when I am in the midst of of battling satanic for some of them of people intimate the demons that hate those people as well. Yeah, that the devil hates the radical left. The devil wants to destroy the radical left is that he wants to destroy believers 70 he hates the human race, but he hates those for exalting Jesus and shining the light in dark places all the more, but I'm not relying on Mike Brown's confrontational nature. This is the start fights I'm relying on the Holy Spirit working in me and through me to push back forces of darkness that are trying to destroy our generation just like they tried to destroy every other generation, and with my eyes fixed on Jesus is not fear, worry or insecurity or panic. There is faith and confidence because Jesus died and rose from the dead, and that is more than enough for me to know all authority in heaven and earth belongs to him.
Therefore, we don't go backwards. We go forward. In Jesus name. Our friends, we come back want to talk to the major breaking news.
A major case that will encourage the is the gospel, we will file the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get into the minor fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH dear again is Dr. Michael Brown higher 866-34-TRUTH number call.
Did you catch latest article that I posted on stream and on Esther Brown not work with lots of great quotes from what Nancy about abortion. It's called were trashing our humanity as we trash may be parts of some records from Mother Teresa as well. Some the stuff we talked about on yesterday's broadcast here in written form and expanded in with these quotes that you can share with others that I believe are very very powerful and worth sharing.
Okay I said there was some good news about further pushback so I didn't even know about this just been busy traveling in writing and catching up on other things. So I was not not even aware of this until I got a note from my colleague Al Parada at the stream but there has been a major victory.
A major victory in the case of Colorado Baker, Jack Phillips. Many of you remember what happened to him. And here we have CBN news reporting Jack Phillips vindicated as quote overwhelming evidence expose the state quote hostility against Christian Baker. I won't will pull that article back up in a moment to give you the background. Jack Phillips masterpiece cakes. He's going about his business. He served many gay individuals gay couples over the years. It's never been an issue. A couple comes in wanting him to make a wedding cake for them. He explains why he can't do it why he's a follower of Jesus, and he can't lend his artistry.
He can't lend his creativity to this project. Very simple and to me it's it's no different than it interest in terms of a similar situation impressive differences. Otherwise is no different then a Christian guy going into a T-shirt place.
You know that the custom make T-shirts for you and things like that and he says hey I need a thousand T-shirts in its own by a gay couple need a thousand T-shirts that you were doing this campaign about the meaning of marriage and in an clinically gay marriage so we we need we need a thousand T-shirts and what what we want to have is like two men holding hands, and then the red circle in the line through it and and then on the front. We want to have first Corinthians 611, such were some of you show that Jesus sets people free and is gay couple.
They could easily say no fourth document tooth that that's still the offensive dust that violates you know it, thus, are you knowing who we are and sends a message we totally agree with the disagree with. Sorry is like 10 other T-shirt places in the in the city. Here you go to one of them, but no wheat we can do in good conscience. Great fine. I respect that will or shouldn't say you have to do it.
You still should cause the business. Well, if that's offensive to other Christians there than with the cost of business and if what Jack Phillips did was offensive to the gaze live cost meant business. That's fine.
You people have their viewpoints, and there can be consequences. That's fine, but it is utterly outrageous to think that the court could and then in America where were our most essential rights have to do with freedom.
Freedom that someone could say you don't have the freedom of conscience, you don't have the freedom of religion and it is I'm out of buying something that was never the issue is that same gay couple came and said all we love that cake their grace on the said world are you gray no so the issue if if a Muslim came in and said hey were doing the celebration in our mosque and and it you know it's this anniversary of the prophet Mohammed's ascension to heaven and and we want to have. You know our slogan.
There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet and the Christian Baker sister actually it either your idea.
The cookies with this inscription are these big cookies that that would be no that's very meaningful to but I'm Christian and an unknown agree with that and it's for me that could use those as a problem. They don't sue the guy that's fine the same way if I went to an Orthodox Jewish shop and I said I'd like you to print up these visa.
This is a T-shirt on.
You know T-shirt company and I'd like you to make all these T-shirts that say the issue is Lord issue is the Messiah, you know, he could no, sorry, that's his counterargument perfectly fine perfectly fine, who have another issue that you know for someone to do that now the same measure if if a Jewish believer in Jesus came in and said I like to buy the T-shirt you sell it to the person I if a Muslim came in and said I'd like to get 100 cookies use only cookies of a gay couple comes in and says hey you know where were having a celebration next week and I'm Anita hundred cupcakes. I like those cupcakes. Whatever the use of your your other police were there using it for use on the cupcakes with get there ask you to design something if there ask you to contribute your artistry and ability to their message. Obviously, people of different faiths and backgrounds are been a decline in that's perfectly fine in America so anyway Jack Phillips declines the business he ends up being taken to court by the state and he's going to be nailed to the wall by the state for bigotry and discrimination because the states laws that you can't discriminate based on sexual orientation is that he wasn't.
He was asked to contribute his artistry for message he differed with him. He couldn't do that good conscience gets all way up to the Supreme Court Supreme Court did not directly decide the case but they sent it back to the state of Colorado and to the courts there saying you showed extreme bias against religion you cross the line here and because of that we are sending this back to so it was a clear rebuke, the court did not make a final decision on what happens when quote gay-rights conflict with religious rights okay and I say quote gay-rights gazelle to give the right to ask someone to do something artistic on your behalf that they differ with contribute to a message that they differ with or participate in something through which they be sending themselves like a photographer asking to shoot a gay wedding and and you don't agree. It's right. Cannot believe it's right. You have an issue with the and okay I want to the hot garden loose kiss here with some irate behind it stands photography set can't do that. Good conscience, perfectly fine, perfectly right so the court did make clear though that Colorado's extreme hostility against religion was unacceptable. So think it's thrown back so check Phillips.
It's a victory excitement celebration will not long after that transgender individual comes in.
Oh, you think he wasn't targeted at an end in a many times these people targeted from the start by gay activists quite intentionally.
Sometimes it is this innocent but plenty of times it's been targeted and quite intentional.
So here was a lawyer present and identified lawyer goes in and wants Jack Phillips to do something at it on not sell him something as a transgender.
But something in affirmation celebration of his transgender identity votes. Again, good conscience can do it once again Colorado civil rights of the Atty. Gen. They go after Jack farming. Do they not learn is the hostility that intense is the hatred that that that unstoppable that they did not learn the lesson on the Supreme Court slaps their hand. They don't learn the lesson.
Let's put that story back up. Here's what happened that the right within this is not gone all the way up to the Supreme Court. But what's happened is this now and again, the alliance defending freedom is reporting that the transgender cake case against Christian Baker Jeffcoat is being dropped.
ADF said it was nothing more than antireligious harassment that came even though Phillips had just won his previous cases, the Supreme Court, members of the Colorado civil rights commission would come after Phillips have now been exposed to what ADF called over whelming evidence of clear hostility toward religious freedom. Phillips masterpiece cake shop was under fire again because he said his Christian beliefs present prevented them from creating a cake that celebrated the transgender transition and attorney had targeted Phillips with that transgender cake that same attorney later asked Phillips to also design a cake with satanic themes and images you Supreme Court of the ready rules in the previous case that what was the was brought against Phillips by CCR see the governments and state officials cannot show religious hostility in their decisions that is new evidence. That's what cc are doing was doing. Please make that's what cc RC was doing with their second legal attack against him. So according to ADF state of Colorado is dismissing its case against Jack stopping at 6 1/2 years of hostility towards him for his beliefs. Jack's victory is great news for everyone. Tolerance and respect for good-faith differences of opinion are essential in a diverse society like ours with the states demonstrated ongoing hostility towards Jack because of his beliefs is undeniable. One commissioner had already been exposed, recalling Phillips a quote hater on Twitter and fully commissioner Diane Risa called religious freedom. Quote a despicable piece of rhetoric, prompting US Supreme Court ruled against the Colorado commission for its antireligious bigotry. Now, ADF attorneys have uncovered statements from a 2018 public meeting in which to commissioner's voice support for those comments. For example, commissioner Carol Fabrizio said. I also very much stand behind commissioner Risa statements. I was actually proud of what she said and I agree with her. I'm almost glad that something the commissioner said ended up public and used because I think it was the right thing to religious freedom was despicable piece of rhetoric and on and on it goes.
So pushback pushback continues in England.
By the way, 600 kids were pulled out of the school.
Some like 80% of the kids my Muslim parents who had it with the school's aggressive and constant pushing of LGBT activism. If a Republican South city of Houston, city officials back down with the drag queen reading program for toddlers and parents kept pushing that is happening happening around us do our part in the spirit.
Her plan by the Expo line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown your voice and more cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
There ought of all we we only have an hour a day and do our best to fill it with things that are hard and take your call so we do interviews we really want them to count, and this is why I've got my colleague fellow author friend Frank Viola joining us today. He's written a whole bunch of books and best-selling author for years his burden. This is to help people deepen their relationship with Jesus and enter into a more vibrant and authentic experience experience of church among his most popular books God's favorite place on earth from eternity to here Jesus manifestoes were given with Leonard Sweet with George Barna others, but it's got a brand-new book out re-grace and I was reading some of the blogs he was putting out before the publication of this book.
The subtitle what the shocking beliefs of the great Christians can teach us today of some of it. I was familiar with some of it was brand-new to me. So this is can be a really interesting discussion Frank. Welcome back to the line of fire. Michael my honor to be on your show brother appreciated well great it's it's my joy to have have you with the soap first to tell us what prompted you to write this and then what the title re-grace is all about. Yeah, if anybody is on social media, especially Facebook, which in many cases the Viper. You you are flooded almost daily with your social media feed being full of vitriolic of adults and throw down smack down among Christians when they disagree with each other and you know the carnage just gets worse and worse every year. We have Christians, in effect excommunicating each other on Facebook and on twitter just because they disagree theologically or politically, and the world sees this hate is not a could witness at all. But Michael, we have lost the art of being able to disagree agreeably to be able to receive a person respect them in the Lord and yet disagree with them on some doctrinal or theological or even political point. I made the statement that if murder were legal in United States. The number one cause of death would no longer be cancer, heart attacks or car accident. I believe it would be Kristin Slane at the hands of other Christians over doctrinal and political disagreement. You know it's gotten that bad so I wanted to write a book that would put the whole conversation in a totally different perspective and in so doing, look at all of the great Christians who have gone before us. Recognize that all those people who shaped the Christian faith today are heroes, so to speak, or not perfect in their viewpoints. Either and the and so the title re-grace is all about rediscovering great and extending grace when we have a disagreement when we don't see eye to eye with another believer so something for those who don't know you. Your careful student of the word you've done in the biblical surveys going to Scriptures on different subjects and things like that and you don't have the viewpoint of anything goes to sometimes shoot me a note asking that a particular issue or particular author to get a perspective where they're coming from, etc. so before we get into some specifics here that I was you folks need need to get the book to the whole perspective and then as you weigh in and give comment but does orthodoxy matter. Should we have set beliefs that were passionate about and and should we say certain things are outside the faith and enter actual heresy that does anything go go really the heart of the question is not what one believes but how do we handle ourselves when we come across a good agreement and not everything heresy and unfortunately that's become a word that's just thrown out loosely.
I mean you probably walked out of the number times you been called a heretic. I know I have this zero. I have a hypocrite is someone who complains about the violence and profanity on the DVD player and a heretic.
Today is anyone who disagrees with your theology, so to speak, and therefore you know everybody calling it a heretic.
There certainly there certainly a test of orthodoxy and have old chapter and in the book that the scribe that but does come down to how do we handle ourselves and how do we have a conversation with someone will become against disagreement and that's really where things break down Christians no longer able to either. On the one hand, agree to disagree or on the on the other hand, to be able to disagree graciously, I think you are a great example of someone who has been very strong and passionate views regarding what Scripture says about a number of things.
Yet I have never seen you become hostile. I've never seen you beat him anything but gracious toward those who disagree with you, and you know you know how to engage people with questions and so that's really what this is trying to do is to show people practically on the one hand, how to disagree graciously and in a Christlike way but also on the other hand to realize that we do need to extend some grace to other believers just because we might disagree with them. You know you and I know people who are of the opinion that the gifts of the spirit have passed away right with written books on it and you know some of those people are very strong interviews, so much so that they would save it you know all the charismatics are going to hell back. An example of not being gracious in your disagreement. But even though the people, many of them I receive his brethren in the Lord even know I disagree with them and� Really what that's really what were talking about in the book of how to extend grace to people and how to disagree agreeably and the end and return the Christian witness.
Being gracious people who don't immediately cut individuals off because we have a disagreement over doctrinal politics, my friends, the book re-grace literally hot off the press published by Baker books and the reason for giving illustrations about other leaders is that these are people who we respect. These are people who we will quote quite freely and yet if they were alive today, some of them maybe, but most of them from from the past. If they were alive today they get slammed you know that they be called heretics and in the first some of their beliefs of let let's let's give a specific of you got a whole bunch to pick from, but let's start you pick it, maybe one that that you think our listeners and viewers might not be familiar with yeah okay well talk about Lois or someone who had a great high regard for he was one of the greatest Christian apologetics eligible defenders of the faith in history and was just absolutely brilliant.
I have no question that he knew the Lord, even the great feel for what did not have immaculate perception of, for example, he believed in praying for the dead and Michael he probably believed it. He made the statement that it was so spontaneous to him that the only the most compulsive of theological case against it would deter him from doing it could not envision himself not praying for dead people. Alright so we have no scriptural evidence of bring over the bed in the Bible and the case can be made that you know it's contrary to Scripture, yet you believe that he also believed in purgatory purgatorial cleansing that after people died before the period of testing and cleansing, and even beyond that, something that many Christians would find surprising is that he believed it was possible for some believers to find salvation after they had left this world, that he was not a universal test. What he really didn't believe in ultimate reconciliation, but he did hold for the possibility that some believers would in fact find salvation or some people rather after they died.
Now I use him as an illustration that for many Christians see if there was a hero for many Christians you know you don't get any better than Lewiston defending the Christian faith against atheism and agnostic. But here's the thing he did see all things clearly didn't have perfect understanding of Scripture or theology. And yet God used him and used him mightily, and if that's the case, if the blue it wasn't perfect interview, but how much more gracious. Should I be when I come across another believer in Christ who clearly have evident that there following the Lord, and they have missed it in my view on theology or politics or Dr. Don and didn't see us loose of course some of that I quote all the time and whose views books that he was considered to be by top Christian leaders the most influential Christian author of the 20th century a major survey was done a few years back and and when leader after leader flew had to pick some of his name came up.
The most and obviously these other beliefs were not major things that he put forward in the things that we absolutely differ with scripturally but some absolutely based on that would brand him a heretic look Billy Graham just passed from this world and I'm reading website saying he's now in hell getting his due roar you go. This also friends. Let me just go through the table of contents after asking why this book and then laying out some foundations honoring those with whom you disagree. It's not a bloodsport. I checked this out already this is a new book re-grace just out today by Franco. The shocking beliefs of CS Lewis. The shocking beliefs of Jonathan Edwards. The shocking beliefs of Martin Luther, shocking beliefs of John Calvin. The shocking beliefs of Augustine shocking beliefs of John Wesley, the shocking beliefs of Charles Spurgeon the shocking beliefs of DL Moody and seven shocking statements by Billy Graham and then the new tolerance and then you might be a Pharisee, etc. listen friends. Frank's intention is to mess with you to challenge you to think in a godly way in a Christian way in a mature way. Look when I debate Jewish rabbis with whom I passionately differ in and these are life-and-death issues for us. I'm still going to do so in a way that is respectful and gracious towards them as I felt what I believe is serious error. How much more those who are fellow believers and those who are friends back grace by Franco.
It's the line of fire with your host activist, author, international speaker and theologian Dr. Michael Brown voice of more cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling 866343 here again is Dr. Michael Brown speaking with my friend Frank Viola about his new book, which is re-grace which takes you back into the shocking beliefs of some great Christian leaders of practice I was reading the table of contents out loud. I was picturing people as well that I don't look to that will build like hoping that they could dodge this pretty well covered. I mute you got from Calvin and Luther to to Wesley you know you got Spurgeon and and Moody and you know from Augustine to Billy Graham so in each of these cases what you're saying is that that we treat leaders from the past with greater respect and with more tolerance towards what may have been some blemishes in their theology or beliefs of we don't do the same with each other to today, which is a really dangerous double standard absolutely fact that most Christians are unaware of some of the shocking, surprising and flawed that these great Christian had it out. So when you shine the light on that and you know, for example, I have friends who are Calvin fanatics that mandate John Calvin was still just under Jesus Christ you know and yet when they rebid us and I realize, wait a minute you know this guy didn't have such a perfect theology of thought. The fact has to be to step back a little bit that look of my irritant get everything right, but how much more should I be more gracious, no more patient with other believers in the thing Michael if any Christians honest with themselves. They go back decades. I know for me know 35 years ago. If I made doctrinal perfection. The standard of fellowship. I would've had to excommunicate myself 35 years ago Mike my view to have evolved and changed. I think a great example we have of this is in act, 18 we have a guy named Apollo who was an incredibly gifted teacher came to Jesus Christ. He was a Jew who was Hellenized so he understood the Greek mindset he was going into the synagogue and he was preaching Jesus Christ. But the house of fire, but he did not understand the gospel completely. He had some blind spots in acts 18. The Scripture tells us that Priscilla and Aquila listen to them. They were impressed with him. But then they took him privately on the and the Scripture says be explained away. God more accurately through a politics they didn't scold him they didn't cut them off. They didn't brand them as a heretic.
They didn't denigrate them or lambaste them did explain to him the gospel more fully, more accurately, and then the Scripture says, which is really surprising to me. It says they sent him to Corinth, Macao, which is set for the Greek. They sent him there and they wrote a letter to the brothers and sisters according thing welcome Apollo now that is how a man of God or woman of God reacts when someone had misted and arrived Don I am close friends with Dr. James White and he's an apologist he's a polemicist he's a theologian. He is a staunch Calvinist.
I am not is not the toughest number starts on Calvinist, he is not charismatic, I'm charismatic and and we've had it. We have plenty of differences. We debated each other quite a few times. I did a show with him last week where we just laid out our differences in the atonement and we do it as brothers in the Lord.
I have them speak to our students are ministry school and have them preach from our pulpit on Sunday morning at a fire church and he brought a wonderful message that that every believing Christian should be able to shout and amen two from Philippians the second chapter. What bothers me and disturbs me is people are so thrilled with our friendship and our partnership for the gospel in the midst of our differences that should be the norm that you just the way this and look a little humility would indicate that in less I personally think that I alone am right on all points that then II you on the fundamentals will die for those, but there plenty of other issues to think that I might not every last thing that I believe that I'm the only person on the planet and everybody else is wrong or my little fellowship or groups out there.
There's an arrogance with that that you know just not honor the rest of the body and thinks that I have it all. So if we come with humility.
Yeah, I can say Frank I totally disagree with you and them in half. I think that's completely off base. Had you get that idea telling where you're coming from but explain it. And then if these are things with within the parameters of orthodoxy.
We bless each other love each other and walk on as as opposed to the bloodletting bloodletting will make a statement. I have a lot of quote like this book that you can be straight as the gun barrel theologically and just as empty as one spiritually and what's more important to Jesus Christ our Lord is how we treat other people even beyond being mentally or intellectually correct because if you're theologically correct and if you're politically correct about using it in the right thing to write you.
You get your your politics is in line with Scripture but you treat people in a nasty, vindictive, unkind way then you're wrong. Even though you may be right and so and so that's what the that's what the book is all about and give practical candles, but how to actually disagree with someone in an agreeable way. I want to create one little quote here that to me was probably the most powerful and the whole book and it sort of exemplified by your relationship with with James White, George Whitfield and John Wesley. Now these were you movers and shakers during the great awakenings both of them were incredible evangelist. They both sacrificed their lives for the Lord, but they totally disagree theologically. George Whitfield was a hard-core Calvinist, and John Wesley with a hard-core Arminian so they totally disagree on theology, but here is here is the thing that just is amazing George for your dual field was asked. George will we see John Wesley and happen and his response was a shocker. He said bit George Whitfield for John Wesley. I fear not, for he will be so near the eternal throne get such a distance.
We shall hardly at side of him while we take that one step further.
So which of the 1714 to 1770. John Wesley, the 1703 to 1791. So we outlived Whitfield so he was there to see Whitfield pass from this world and I've read that he was asked that same question and gave the same answer you right yet so how how utterly remarkable quite listen folks, you gotta get the book.
It's an eye-opener.
And again, it's all practical practical price that this is a brilliant way to combat the nastiness and the ugliness it's out there, but we've got two minutes.
Give me a sample of the shocking belief of Charles Spurgeon, my goodness well up, he believed it was okay to smoke the dog, the glory of God. And in that time.with the real shocker peak front newspapers, fellow Christians yoking the net date tobacco was evil, and many Christians today would feel the same way, but he made a case. Liberty and cry to smoke cigars where the agree with them or not what you think he was wrong and that are not.
Charles Spurgeon was a man of God a sacrifice for the Lord, and he led many many many people to Christ. I don't know if this is true or not. Maybe you research the but I I heard the story that DL Moody came into to Spurgeon and told him he needed to to get rid of the cigars and Spurgeon pointed to Moody's belly in Setauket with the cigars we get rid of that stuff.
That's true, you know, I have looked that thing up there that I cannot find it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I didn't put in the book that I couldn't find it anywhere but compelling point and that it can stand to pick this up and that they don't like condemning others and then ignore their own so yeah exactly and that's why again this is by God's grace in serving the Lord. I'm living as a serious believer before him but I understand that I'm perfect in Jesus not in myself and I understand how merciful he's been, how many times he's forgiven me is when people say Dr. Brown you're so gracious with others. This is more God's very gracious with me.
Actually right and and when we realize that we want to extend the tubs and listen if will do this we can't we can further sharpen and understand where our differences are and what we believe and why to civil dialogue and interaction instead of excommunicating each other in and destroying each other, especially when the world is so hostile, the lost week.
We need to recognize Jesus continues to pray for unity and it's as we love one another as he loved us that the world sees that he sent them sent us friends the book by Frank Viola read grace out today so glad we could have you on the day of the books release man keep putting these out. This was unique and I think is going to minister to a lot of people.
Michael R. God bless I friends all that said from the heart not radio hype here, you'll you'll find this really, really interesting read in it and it doesn't doesn't diminish our respect for those of gone before us.
It makes us realize that sometimes we can be so sharply critical that we throw out just about everybody. So you hold to Orthodox beliefs defend the faith don't draw back from that speak the truth in love, let's pursue these things. Let's expose error.
Absolutely yes was doing the way that glorifies Jesus watching the world because my friends right here back with you