Face to Face with the Persecuted Church in Pakistan

The following is a pre-recorded program.

Now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. The first half of the show, I want to talk about what's happening in different parts of the world. And then the second half of the show, I'm going to take you into a previously recorded interview with a Pakistani pastor. He was with us recently here in the States, talking firsthand about the things that he has seen, firsthand about the things that he has suffered and experienced. So that's what we're going to do today.

I encourage you to share this with a friend. These are our brothers and sisters we're talking about. Part of our own family. And remember how Jesus feels about this. When Saul of Tarsus was persecuting fellow Jews who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah, he had an encounter directly with the Lord. And Yeshua, Jesus said to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

And as the Puritan author and leader Thomas Watson pointed out that the body being struck, the head, cried out. So this is something that the Lord looks at every single day and asks you to consider this. If you were the one suffering, if your family was suffering, if you were the one being thrown in prison, if your children were taken from you because of the Gospel, if your family members were being tortured or beheaded for the Gospel, wouldn't you think that brothers and sisters and the rest of the world should know about this? Wouldn't you think that your cause, your suffering, should be of interest to us if it's for the Gospel and for the name of Jesus? So we want to hear these things and not feel guilty for the liberties that we do have, but to use those liberties to honor the Lord, to press in in prayer, and to do what we can to make a difference. And then to be strengthened, at the very least, to be strengthened in our own resolve to stand. I think of what my friend evangelist Steve Hill used to say, picturing sitting at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and you're sitting across from a girl who was martyred rather than deny her faith, tortured rather than deny her faith, and she begins to talk to you, oh, and what did you do?

Tell me about your life. And the shame that we would feel because of our cowardice, because of our pride, because of our love of security and personal interest rather than losing our lives for the Gospel. Jesus promised us this. John 15, don't be surprised if the world hates you. Well, don't be surprised, 1 Peter 4. And then Jesus in John 15, if the world hates you, remember, it hated me. That's why it's going to hate you, because of the Gospel. Matthew 5, we are to rejoice when these things happen to us.

It is part of our calling. Acts 5, the apostles leave the son, Hedron, rejoicing as they recount it worthy of suffering reproach for the Gospel. Let's take a look at Open Doors. Open Doors is one of the leading ministries working with the persecuted church, with the suffering church, and every year they put out a world watch list. Here are the top 50 countries where it's most difficult to follow Jesus.

So we start, and we're going to scroll down through the whole list, but I want to look at the first couple. North Korea, communist and post-communist oppression. And in point of fact, there is not a national religion there. It's his main religion, agnosticism.

In other words, you're not dealing with Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. And this is state-sponsored, not state-permitted, but state-sponsored persecution. And for quite a number of years now, North Korea has been on the top of the list. I'm going to come back to that in a moment.

But now we're going to just go through the whole list. Number two, Afghanistan. Three, Somalia. Four, Libya. Five, Pakistan.

Let's pause there for a moment. We're going to speak with a Pakistani pastor in the second half of this broadcast. And one of the things that he told me after the interview was over, he said there are some Pakistani Christians who are on national TV, and they have certain liberty, he said, but they will not cross lines. And it gives a false impression to the rest of the world. Oh, there's complete liberty there. Look, there's a Pakistani pastor on TV preaching.

You can even have some open meetings and things like that. And there's an appearance of liberty, appearance of freedom. But there is constant persecution and oppression of Christians there, which is why Pakistan is number five on the list. Okay, back to the list. Number six, Eritrea. Number seven, Yemen.

So Eritrea, Ethiopia, neighbors. Number seven, Yemen. Number eight, Iran. Number nine, Nigeria. We're going to focus on Nigeria in a moment. Number 10, India.

Let's pause there. India was not always in the top 10. Like some of these countries in Afghanistan for years and years has been up there.

North Korea for years and years has been up there. But India is not always in the top 10. What has happened with the militant Hindu government and calls for a Hindu nationalism? In other words, India is a Hindu religion. Just like Trump had the Make America Great theme, Make India Hindu again. Tremendous pressure on those who have converted. Open persecution of those preaching Jesus.

So things have heated up. Now, it varies from state to state within India. But it's gotten difficult enough and there have been plenty of martyrs so that India is now number 10 on the list. Okay, back to the list. Number 11 is Iraq. Number 12, Syria. Number 13, Sudan. Number 14, Saudi Arabia. Number 15, Maldives.

So islands off Africa, the Asia area. Egypt is number 16. China, 17.

I'm surprised it's not higher on the list given how far China has gone in recent days. 18, Myanmar, formerly known as Burma. 19, Vietnam. 20, Mauritania. 21, Uzbekistan. 22, Laos. 23, Turkmenistan. 24, Algeria. 25, Turkey. 26, Tunisia. 27, Morocco. 28, Mali. 29, Qatar.

30, Colombia. 31, Bangladesh. 32, Burkina Faso. 33, Tajikistan. 34, Nepal. 35, Central American Republic. 36, Ethiopia. 37, Mexico.

Interesting. 38, Jordan. 39, Brunei. 40, Democratic Republic of the Congo. 41, Kazakhstan. 42, Cameroon. 43, Bhutan. 44, Oman. 45, Mozambique. 46, Malaysia. 47, Indonesia. 48, Kuwait. 49, Kenya.

49, Comoros. Okay. Over half of those listed are Muslim. Just to give you an idea, that remains the single most challenging issue in terms of worldwide, if you had to isolate where persecution is consistently coming from, Islam. And Islam, when Islam takes over, when Islam becomes the religion of a nation, it does so in an oppressive way.

It does so in a forceful way. Remember, Islam does not mean peace. Islam means submission, submission to Allah. And just like Christians have the great commission to, quote, Christianize the whole world, to bring the whole world into the knowledge of Jesus, or to spread the message around the world until everyone has the opportunity to hear for themselves and then refuse or accept the offer of God's grace, Islam also wants to convert the whole world, but it is to bring it into subjection to Allah. And because Islam is not just a religious system, but a political system and a legal system, then when Islam takes over, it will take over in an oppressive way.

And for example, in the countries that are on this list, the ones that are highest on the list, it would be standard that the penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity is death. So just think of the level of commitment involved in that. Think of that. Think of the level of commitment that you know that by following Jesus, you might die. You might die for it.

Think of how that would prune and sift the body in America and in other parts of the world today. That if that – if you had a sign on the dotted line, yes, I understand that following Jesus might cost me my life. I wonder how many would sign on that line. But truly, every real convert should. Every real convert should say, my life's for the Gospel. I'm lost in hellbound and under the judgment of God.

How could I not, with heart, soul, mind, strength, with everything within me, say, Lord, I belong to you, whatever the cost, whatever the consequence. Now, you have others, as I mentioned, like the North Korea totalitarian regime or some others. It's just an oppressive dictatorial regime. But in point of fact, Islam is a major one. Some parts of the world, Hinduism is a major one. Buddhist countries, there are problems, but generally speaking, not on the wide scale that you're finding. And China, of course, even though it has various Asian eastern religions, the big issue there is the communist oppression.

So communism, that godlessness, remains another issue as well. You know what country you didn't find on that list? Israel. Israel. Oh, it's so terrible in Israel. Oh, Israel's genocidal apartheid. Israel persecutes everyone. Israel's so unfair. Oh, there are challenges if you're a Jewish believer in Jesus in Israel.

There are challenges. You might face opposition in different places. You might have those in the ultra-orthodox community working with the government to try to restrict your rights or not allow new believers to come in or even have people deport it. But otherwise, messianic congregations all over Israel meet, and churches meet constantly and have their services. You can have open air worship. You're an Israeli citizen.

You're a Jewish believer, and you're there in a street corner handing out gospel literature. You can do it. And if you went to certain neighborhoods, it would be dangerous, but you can do that quite freely. And of course, America is not on the list. As much as we're having issues and challenges to our freedoms, we remain a very free country compared to much of the rest of the world.

So a little shout-out to my brothers and sisters in America, Europe, too. Let's use the freedoms we have. Let's use the platforms we have. When our big issue is—I don't know if I share the gospel here. You know, I might, if I share the gospel, you know, I might get unfriended on Facebook and—friends, let's share the gospel. Friends are losing their heads, losing their lives for the gospel while we're worried about losing a friend on Facebook. Let's use the liberties we have. Let's use the platforms we have. As believers are literally being killed for their faith on a daily basis around the world, this is commonplace.

This has happened for endless decades. Let's be strong in the Lord. Let's use the liberties we have.

And let's get a heart. Can't we make it part of our regular discipline to pray for the persecuted church? And if you go to a website like Open Doors, Opendores.com, Opendores.org, if you go there, or Persecution.com, and say, what can I do? How can I get involved?

There are many practical ways that you can get involved. All right, we'll be right back on the other side of the break. We're going to focus on Nigeria. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends, as we focus on the persecuted church today. You know, there are witnesses, testimonies, words of exhortation from some of the early church leaders that said you should never have a service where you don't mention persecuted brothers and sisters. And it's something that's just important that in a lot of our church life we forget about.

We literally forget about. That a whole year could go by and we never draw attention to the persecuted church in one of our public services, let alone pray for persecuted brothers and sisters. Let alone say, okay, here's how you can write letters, or here's how you can give, or here are practical ways that you can get involved. At the very least, let's be informed. And being informed will then drive us to pray. So one of our FIRE International missionaries, Joanne, a Jewish believer, has been serving in Nigeria for years now and absolutely loves the people there, loves living with the poorest of the poor, and giving herself to teach and train, educate the children, educate the teachers, and lead as many people of Jesus as she can. They've gone right into Muslim villages and said, hey, if you need education, we'll set up a Christian school for you.

I mean, it's bold and gracious to do it and very close to having persecution. Not that long ago, we got an email urging prayer need. The husband of one of their friends had been kidnapped by terrorists, Islamic terrorists. They were demanding ransom.

And I don't know what happened. There was prayer. I don't know how they got him back.

I forget that detail because that's not what I focused on. We were praying and then got the word back. So if ransom was met or God delivered him beyond that, that I don't remember. We were just praying for God's deliverance. And then get this report, praise God, he's back. He just has a gash on his head and is missing a couple of fingers. Praise God.

You think, for us, that's it. That's our story the rest of our lives, you know, that we go around on tour and talk about, yeah, I got a gash on my head for the gospel and lost a couple of fingers. And listen, that would be fine if it drew attention to the suffering church and persecution and you were helping, alert, and you had the honor of doing that. But for them, it was praise God that's all that happened because they knew that was actually a good outcome given the horrors of persecution there. So Joanne will regularly send us reports from Nigeria, people that she knows, friends of friends, colleagues of colleagues, and then just reports from the newspapers.

So I want you to see this. This is happening in Nigeria. Nigeria, the north, is Muslim.

The south is Christian with some intersection. And there's a lot of persecution of Christians that are in the northern parts of Nigeria. And this article says Nigeria experiencing religious genocide under Buhari, who's a Muslim president. Let's read down into some of this report.

I want you to hear first hand. This is August 7, 2021. A newly launched joint report by the International Committee in Nigeria and the International Organization for Peace Building and Social Justice has asserted that Nigeria is currently experiencing genocide, describing the nation as a failed state. The report, titled Nigeria's Silent Slaughter, stated that no fewer than 43,242 Nigerians have been killed by Boko Haram and Islamic State insurgents, while 18,834 others lost their lives in the hands of killer Fulani herdsmen over a 20-year period. So just on these minimal statistics, you're talking about over 3,000 people killed a year. So almost 10 people killed a day.

And most that I know would say these are super conservative statistics. The numbers are way, way, way higher than this. It added that 34,233 other Nigerians met their deaths through extrajudicial killings by other actors, including the police, military, and others. In other words, just lawlessness, just these different ones, army, police taking the law into their own hands. The report lamented what it described as, quote, the breakdown of the rule of law, spiraling violence, atrocities against targeted religious groups and innocent civilians, and the impunity of the perpetrators in Nigeria. According to the report, the combination of these factors contributed to transform Nigeria into largely a failed state and regional epicenter for terrorism. The authors of the report added that their assertion found support in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide. Quote, there is strong evidence and a compelling legal argument that over the past decade or so, increasingly under the current Fulani Muslim dominated Nigerian government of Mohammed Buhari, Nigeria is experienced what could be seen as targeted religious genocide, or what, at the very least is widespread and often coordinated religious persecution campaigns being conducted against Christians.

The report stated in its introduction overview signed by the executive president of ICON, Stephen Anada, and executive director, PSI, Dr. Richard Ikebe. In its forward, the report published a November 24, 2019 letter by a member of the House of Lords, United Kingdom Baroness Caroline Cox calling on the international community to recognize the crisis in Nigeria as typical genocide while accusing the Nigerian government of pampering killer Fulani herdsmen. Remember, Buhari himself comes from that background. Cox wrote, while the underlying causes of violence are complex, the asymmetry and escalation of attacks by well-armed Fulani militia upon predominantly Christian communities is stark and must be acknowledged while the Nigerian administration has taken steps to counter Boko Haram insurgency. It is not demonstrated it's the same commitment to tackle the escalating violence perpetrated by Fulani militants. Finally, given the Nigerian government's apparent complicity in the persecution of Christians, international aid should be curtailed until they protect and provide for their own citizens of any beliefs. Also in the forward, a retired African-American congressman Frank Wolf urged the world to pay attention to Nigeria, noting that Boko Haram insurgents in their decade-long jihadist campaign had killed over 27,000 civilians, a figure he said was more than the number killed by ISIS in Iraq and Syria combined.

Wolf expressed the fear that Nigeria could implode with dire consequences for neighboring nations in the world and implosion would destabilize the surrounding countries and send millions of refugees into Europe and beyond. Okay, let's just stop there for now. Friends, those numbers, those are stats, but those are not numbers and stats. In God's eyes, those are people. And in the eyes of the bereaved, in the eyes of the suffering, those are not numbers or stats. Those are their own lives. Again, I don't put these things out there to make you feel guilty for sleeping in a nice bed.

I do as well. I don't say these things to make you feel guilty for being free to travel and come and go as you please and not being in prison. I have the same freedom you have. It's not for the sake of guilt. It's for a call to solidarity.

It's to wake us up to reality. I get the emails from Joanna. I get the emails from friends in India. I get the emails from others in the Middle East and different persecuted parts of the country.

I get those. I hear these things on a regular basis. For decades, when I started reading about the persecuted church in the – oh, when would it have been? Late 80s, early 90s, I started to read a lot about the persecuted church. And as I began to travel and as I began to meet people who had been persecuted for their faith, including Richard and Sabita Wernbraun, the stories just became deeply embedded in me. And it's been a consciousness I've carried ever since, even though I live here in America, like most of you listening and watching.

The fact is, this is reality. And this is part of our calling. And the little opposition that I get – you know, the hate mail, the death wishes, the death threats, the few times where I've had to risk my life preaching the gospel, the protests at meetings that I've done, these tiny, tiny little things in comparison to what our brothers and sisters go through – they're a constant reminder to me that there is real persecution, severe persecution, taking place in other parts of the world.

And yes, it's true that in many of the most persecuted places, the church is growing nonetheless. And one day, we'll get to hear the story of the miraculous preservation of the church in North Korea, underground, through terrible, horrific suffering. And you look, I imagine you're like me when you read the stories, when you read the stories about persecuted believers, when you read about imprisonment and torture and starvation and all kinds of deprivation. You wonder, could I handle it? Could I endure it? And the simple answer is, assume no.

Assume no. Because the conditions are different than anything we've known, and people know the exquisite ways to torture and bring someone to the end of themselves. The lesson is, strength out of weakness. The lesson is to say, God, I'm relying on you. I'm relying on your grace. I'm weak in myself.

But to the core of my being, I want to honor you and be faithful to you. And that's a takeaway for each of us now, that wherever you are, you might feel weak. You might feel fearful.

You might feel intimidated. Even though it's not with a gun to our head, there are other forms of intimidation. And there are Christian leaders. I remember meeting with Brother Yun, the heavenly man, as he's known, and talking about his terrible sufferings in China and torture.

But he talked about what we go through here in America. It's of a different sort, but it's a real spiritual warfare. And even a lot of the attack comes from brothers and sisters within the body, which is the most mind-boggling thing of all.

It's something that he mentioned to us. So there is real warfare. It's not what others are suffering, but let's be strengthened by their suffering.

Let's learn the same lesson. Strength out of weakness. God's power demonstrated in us. Whoever you are, wherever you are right now, say, God, this is who I am. I'm not a superstar. Maybe you're the type that likes to hide in the back and doesn't want to be in the front. Maybe you like being in the front but don't have the courage to be in the front for the gospel. You go to God.

That's who you are. Say, Lord, I'm weak in myself, but I'm strong in you. I'm strong in the power of your might, and by your grace, I want to stand strong and be your witness and shine for you. So here I am. Send me.

Use me. What we're going to do is we're going to transition in the next segment over to an interview that I recorded, oh, a little over a week ago, with a pastor from Pakistan visiting in the States. He came to meet with me and talk and pray. And when he was here, I said, hey, why don't we record? So we don't show his picture.

I don't give you his name for obvious reasons. Remember, Pakistan is number five on the Open Doors list of most persecuted countries in the world, most persecution for Christians. You can hear firsthand sort of what's happening in Pakistan when we come back on the other side of the break. Welcome to these next segments today on the Line of Fire. What you're going to hear firsthand is something that we do not hear much in the West, but we must hear it, especially in the church. And I encourage you to share this broadcast widely. I cannot give names.

I cannot give cities. I can only tell you that I have in studio with me a pastor from Pakistan. If we openly share his identity, it could put him in danger.

It could put his family in danger, his congregation in danger. So I'm simply telling you that I'm speaking with a pastor from Pakistan. At the same time, if you want to find out more, there is a book written by a brother that I have gotten to know in the past, and I was able to endorse this book. It's called Christian Tears of Pakistan.

Christian Tears of Pakistan, falsely accused under blasphemy law 295 BC. And the brother sitting with me here can verify that the information in this book is true. So Pastor, thanks so much for joining us today on the Line of Fire. I'm so honored to be here, Dr. Michael Brown. Thank you so much.

Well, you are very welcome. So you are a Christian living within Pakistan, which is a Muslim country. What percentage of the country is Christian? Actually, we are 3% in Pakistan and 97% are Muslims in Pakistan. And what's life like for true Christians, not just someone who may come from a Christian family and their background, but for people who are truly Christians, do they have liberty to practice their faith and do what they do the same as, say, Christians in America?

Actually, Pakistan is a very different country. Some people think maybe persecution is only from the state. We have persecution, but that persecution is not from the state, but from the people, religious people. And when something happens, mob rise and the attack on Christian churches and houses and they try to persecute Christians.

All right. So there's an ongoing reality that there can be hostility from the Muslim populace towards Christians. How common is it that Christians in Pakistan and their local communities are being persecuted? Actually, problem in Pakistan is there is a law, 295 Blasphemy Law, 295 BC Blasphemy Law. Under this law, many Christians have been persecuted, targeted, and discriminated, and killed, and many are in prison already. And under this law, Christians are being persecuted a lot everywhere in Pakistan.

All right. So the law is called the Blasphemy Law. Again, what this pastor is talking about, you can read about in this book written by Brother Amir about this very thing.

You can get it online. I wrote an endorsement for this when it came out. So the Blasphemy Law would say that if you blaspheme the Prophet Muhammad, you speak against the Quran, you can then be punished by law or the populace might just rise up against you. Is it common that Christians go around blaspheming and the eyes of Muslims attacking Muhammad, attacking the Quran, or is this just a false accusation? These are all false accusations because just you imagine, we are 3% and 97% are Muslims. How a Christian could say anything against Islam?

And I believe that this is not a right way. We cannot glorify Jesus Christ by speaking against Prophet of Islam and Quran. So no Christian does that, but it is just a way to target Christians. So the local community, let's say you're just having a dispute with someone, a business dispute and you decide you want to hurt this Christian or whatever the reason is. Maybe you're a Muslim leader and you see that some Muslims are converting and becoming Christians.

So you accuse someone of Islam. Do the courts act fairly and local communities, do the courts act fairly or is there kind of a mob rule at times? Mob rules actually, because sometimes court is also threatened and scared by the mob because mob justice is very common in Pakistan and many Christians, their houses have been burned because of that mob and police was just unable to protect them. So even if they wanted to, the mob can scare judges, police and then in many cases you have Muslims in the courts that are going to be sympathetic to the Muslim position. Is that true? Yeah, that's true.

All right. So give me an example of when this has happened. Maybe something you've seen with your own eyes or has happened to a friend or colleague in another city. Give me an example of someone accused under the blasphemy law and what's happened. You know, there was a Christian woman, Asya Bibi. She was in prison for nine years and she was accused that she has committed blasphemy against the Prophet of Islam and her case was in court, lower court and higher court. They were failed to give her justice. Then finally a few maybe organizations helped her to take her case to Supreme Court. From there, she was released in 2019, but she was persecuted just there in Pakistan because she was Christian. She didn't commit any blasphemy against the Prophet of Islam.

So nine years in prison based on false accusations, but kind of powerless to fight back. And in this book that Amir wrote called Christian Tears of Pakistan, as a pastor, how do you relate to that title, Christian Tears of Pakistan? And what should believers in the West be doing and thinking about this?

Actually 2019 I wrote, I decided to write this book because one friend, American friend, he just encouraged me to do this because the world doesn't know what is exactly happening in Pakistan. So in Pakistan, since Christian, they cannot do anything. They cannot speak anything because we are just all the time under constant threat. We cannot say that it is wrong thing is happening to us.

We don't have voice. So that's why I wrote this Christian Tears of Pakistan. We can only cry, but we cannot say and do anything to stop this persecution, false accusations as well. So that's why these are our tears.

Sometime it is very funny. Pakistani Muslim or Pakistani people, they don't accept us because we are Christians. And sometime in the world when we travel or go, world doesn't accept us because we are Christians. We are Pakistani. We are holding Pakistani passport. That's why they think maybe all Pakistanis are Muslim. So it is very strange situation in the world right now. We have problem in the world because we are Pakistani. We have problem in Pakistan because we are Christians.

So I would request the world, please, you must understand that how your brothers and sisters are going through in Pakistan and different countries just because they are Christian, they believe in Jesus Christ. Yeah, and friends, again, I'm speaking in very vague terms. We've got a book with a pseudonym for the author. We're just saying pastor. We're not giving details because it's that serious.

Because we can't simply get on social media with a picture together and send it out and shout it out and say this was happening without endangering people's lives. And you think of the sense of frustration. Okay, we lean on the Lord. The church has always been persecuted through history. We understand that. But when your brothers and sisters around the world that do have voices, that do have funds, that do have platforms, don't say anything.

Don't do anything. Here you've got folks saying we're standing for Jesus in the midst of tremendous pressure, difficulty. We're standing for Jesus. We just want our brothers and sisters to stand with us to pray and to help get this message out. Brother, what about the economic situation of Christians in Pakistan?

Are there roles, jobs that they end up getting assigned to that are for the poorer classes? Is there any type of caste system or is that something of the past? I am really sorry to say that in Pakistan, we love Pakistan. We Christians, we love Pakistan. No Christian has been involved in terrorism at all.

So we are really patriot Christians in Pakistan. But problem, Christians, they don't get good jobs mostly. And nowadays, when there is ad of jobs on the newspaper, it is always written when it comes to cleaning job, it is for Christians. So most of the Christians, they get cleaning job.

They are streets, they're sweeping streets. They are cleaning bathrooms and all the bad jobs are for Christians. And when I read on newspaper that this job is only for Christians, it broke my heart.

It breaks my heart all the time. So the economic situation is really bad. And I believe that Christians are poor because they're Christians, because they believe in Jesus Christ. That's why we are discriminated.

A Christian cannot start a business. Christian cannot open his restaurant because no Muslim would go to Christian restaurant to eat there because they hate Christians, because Christians are just like lowest class people. Just as Hindus, they were used to hate from Muslims in past. Now we are facing in Pakistan because I think we Christians are from mostly from the Dalit people are untouchable people. When Pakistan and India, we were one country.

So that thing is still going on. And as you asked me about caste, apparently it is said that there is no caste system in Pakistan. But when we look, it is happening there. There is caste system because why we are, people hate from us. Why we are hatred? Because we are Christians. So that is some kind of caste system in Pakistan. We are human being.

Yeah. You know, in India, it was widely thought that the Dalits, the untouchables were the main ones that converted to Christianity. So it is a poor man's religion from the West. And then there have even been massive efforts now through bribery and other things.

In other words, giving them money. Well, we want you to convert back to Hinduism. That is in India. But you still have the caste system much more embedded there. So under Islam, you do not have the same type of caste system, but you have the, it is locked in place in these different ways. So you are saying that literally there are jobs and it says, this is for Christians.

You are going to be a street sweeper. Only Christians should apply for this. Conversely, the higher level jobs, Christians do not bother applying.

Yeah. There are few jobs, maybe some educated Christians they can get, but there are very few chances. And sad thing is this, no Christian can be president of Pakistan. No Christian can be prime minister of Pakistan.

And nowadays, no Christian can be the chief of army staff in Pakistan because of Christian. So is that, is that under the law or is that just the custom? No, it has become constitution in Pakistan. It's part of constitution. Right. Now look, a Muslim country, any country, any government can choose to do what it does.

These are the realities. So here, check out this book, Christian Tears of Pakistan. It'll detail things. It will tell you exactly what's happening legally. At the very least, it will inform you so that you can pray. And maybe there's more that you can do. Maybe you could help with other organizations that stand with the persecuted church.

Maybe there are other tangible steps that you could take. We come back, I want to talk about something terribly distressing, which is Christian girls, teenagers being kidnapped by Muslim men, forcibly converted, raped, and turned into their wives. It's happening on a daily basis in Pakistan. Stay right here. We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, I'm speaking today with a pastor from Pakistan. I met him when he was in the States a few years back.

We're not using real names. I'm not giving you details of churches, of anything else, cities, simply because it's too volatile and there could be people that decide to take action against my brother. He's written a book using a pseudonym, so not using his real name, and it is called Christian Tears of Pakistan.

I encourage you to check the book out, read it for yourself. Pastor, you emailed me a few months back, heartbroken. You sent me pictures of a young lady who was singing in your church choir, a Christian teenager, and then you told me that she had been kidnapped by Muslims. Tell me what happened to her, and tell me what's happening on a wider level in your country. Yeah, she was my church member and choir member as well, and when she came for early morning prayer, she was kidnapped a Muslim guy. And after we tried to find her, but after one week, police informed us that she presented in court with that guy, and now she is Muslim. So sorry we cannot do anything because she is already converted. So when somebody is converted to Islam, nobody can touch and do anything to her.

And then we tried to bring her back, we went to higher court, and then in higher court also same thing happened, and we failed to get her back. So this practice is going on a lot in Pakistan. One guy told me it is not from, this news is not from Christians, this news is from Muslim magazine, monthly magazine. They told us every month 25 to 30 Christian girls are kidnapped and raped and converted into Islam every month. So these Christian girls are like 13 years old girls, 14 years old girls, and 16 years old girls.

So this is really sad. You were before the show talking to me with tears in your eyes about this young lady, and at this point no way to get her back. Why is it that they so quickly say we've converted to Islam? Under what pressure?

How does this happen? Problem with, I always have this question. She is not converted because she was convinced by Islam or she was inspired by Islam.

How in one or two days or one week someone can be impressed and change his religion or her religion? So then I have one more question. If she is converted, why you don't take her as your daughter, as your sister? Why only wife? Because they want to use or abuse those girls for sex. So that's why they convert them. So in other words, once the girl is raped, then it's very difficult for her to just go on with normal life. Is she threatened if she tries to leave, what would happen to her family? If she would leave Islam, she would be killed because every, and we say she would be infidel because according to them she is Muslim now. If she goes back, she will become infidel. If she will go back to family, she will be killed by anyone. And that would be the service of Islam.

Killing an infidel is a service of Islam. Would there be threats to her family? Definitely, family would be threatened as well.

Alright, so if you're a Muslim in Pakistan, someone shares the faith with you, shares the Christian faith, you begin to study, look at it, you're convinced that Jesus is really the Savior and Lord and you say, I want to leave Islam, I want to convert to Christianity and be baptized. You're saying that family members could have that person put to death or they could be accused under the law and put to death? Yeah, definitely it can happen.

And it would happen actually. That's why many people don't confess publicly their faith. So in other words, they come to faith but it's secret because they know if they go public they'll be killed.

Yeah, they can lose their status and they can be killed. And you're not exaggerating. These are realities in Pakistan. That's what I have grown up seeing all these things in my country.

Right, right. So born and raised in Pakistan as a Christian. And many Christians in Pakistan have the last name Masih, which would be equivalent to Mashiach, Messiah, so it's just part of your family heritage.

You're kind of marked like that as well. Yeah, definitely every Christian we use the last word is Masih. Just like another is real name, Masih is identification that he is Christian.

Got it, got it. So how is the church growing then or can it grow in Pakistan? The Christians are largely economically oppressed. You have Christian girls being kidnapped.

If a Muslim publicly converts that person, at the least lose their status, at worst be put to death. Is the church growing? Is the church prospering in any way? I don't, I don't, I would say that Christians, even we are persecuted, even we are going through difficult times, but we are not ready to renounce our faith. We Christians are very confirmed in our faith.

We would never compromise on our faith. I believe that that really helps Muslim to understand that how much love we, how much we love to our Jesus Christ and our faith. And in 20, last year, 2020, when the COVID hit and it was shut down in Pakistan and we tried to help Muslims and Christians with food and we gave 180,000 meals for two months in different areas of Pakistan. And I'm sure many people were touched and blessed and they knew that how Christians are different than their imams and mosques because church was there to help them. So that helps them. But problem is that they cannot confess publicly.

They cannot accept Jesus publicly and say that, okay, no, I am Christian. Yeah. So I've got a couple of questions. A few years ago, there was a terrible terrorist attack within Pakistan. So terrorist attacking his own people. A bomb went off in a park with children and there were many Christians involved there. And, and I went on social media and was talking about this fact that Christians were being targeted and others came on and they seemed to be fairly nominal Christians in more wealthy areas. And they said, there's no persecution. We have complete freedom of religion here. I don't know what you're talking about.

This is not real at all. And we're shocked by what happened, but we are – we all have our religious freedom here in Pakistan and they were all speaking the same way. They were very angry with what I was saying. Of course, I know the details from Pakistan for many, many years and have read the reports of persecuted church there and know some of it from firsthand stories.

But what do you say when you hear that and they say, no, it's fine. We are all Christians. Muslims all work together.

Everything's fine. There's no persecution. There's no inequality. Does that happen in some parts of Pakistan or maybe with more nominal Christians and more nominal Muslims? How would you explain that? Well, I'm really – I'm very honest to say that government definitely they try to protect us, but still they cannot do anything when mob is there, mob justice is there. But when Christians, nominal Christians, they come and they say that we don't have any problem, that's not true at all.

If their daughter were to be taken, then they would know that what happened. Is there persecution or not? Exactly, exactly. And I've had some colleagues who've gone over to Pakistan and they've preached in big open-air meetings with thousands of people and they've come back and said, hey, I was able to go in and do that. Is it that the government doesn't mind a Christian evangelist coming in and preaching to Christians or is that just a show to try to make things look good? I would say, yeah, because the government, as I said, government they try to protect us and they allow people to go there and preach. And sometimes it is a show as well as you said.

Yeah, but so there's certain freedom, but the daily underlying situation is very challenging. There was a professor that I met, a Pakistani professor, a famous scholar in the United States. Our flights were delayed for many hours in Chicago one day and we were talking. And he told me that his wife was finishing a book called Waiting to Die. He's a Pakistani woman and they were Muslims themselves, basically about the plight of Christians in Pakistan and the hopelessness of the future.

And he thought it was important that the world knew about that. So my brother, aside from folks reading the book Christian Tears of Pakistan that will open their eyes more, what would you like to say to Christians, especially in America, that listening and watching from around the world, what would you like to say to them? Definitely I would ask them, please pray for Pakistani Christians so that it is difficult to be a Christian in Pakistan, but we can go through all the persecution. And my message for the world and American brothers and sisters is this, persecution is coming in America and all over the world as well. Just get ready to be persecuted for the name, for the sake of Jesus sake, because it's not easy.

And if we are just sitting idle and we are thinking that it would not happen to us, maybe you're wrong. So just, we have to be ready to face the persecution. If we are facing persecution there, it would happen here as well in future or soon. So that's why it is time for the world to pray for their persecuted Christian brothers and sisters in all over the world, especially in Pakistan as well.

Yeah. Friends, it's the very least we could do is pray and then we could ask God to join our hearts together. And as you heard, after nine years of imprisonment on false charges, this woman was released back to her family and that was with the help of prayer and outside advocacy. So there are things that can be done and there are ministries like Open Doors and others that work with persecuted church, Voice of the Martyrs and others that work with persecuted church around the world. And you can help in different ways if you want to make a direct contribution to help the work that my brother is doing in Pakistan. Again, I can't tell you where, I can't tell you what they're working on, but they are in the midst of what could be a very important project that will be a great testimony in their region. If you'd like to help financially, just designate a gift, go to AskDrBrown.org, click donate, but designate it for the Pakistani church. 100% of your gift will go directly to the important project they're working on.

At some point, we'll be able to put you in direct contact so that you can see firsthand where your gifts went. But if you want to help financially, AskDrBrown.org, click donate, and then designate it for the Pakistani church. 100% of those gifts, without exception, will go directly to this project our brothers work on.

At some point, we'll be able to announce it publicly. Be strong in the Lord, friends. Jesus is worth it all. You can go to Ask DrBrown.org, click donate, and then designate it for the Pakistani church. 100% of your gift will go directly to the important project they're working on.