The Supreme Court Case That Could Overturn Roe v Wade

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This could be the case that literally overturns Roe v. Wade. You need to know more about it. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, I want to really urge you to give me your best ear. I want to encourage you to listen carefully and either right now to contact your friend and ask them to tune in or as soon as the broadcast is over to share this as widely as possible because this is a critically important interview on a critically important subject.

Michael Brown, welcome to The Line of Fire. If you have questions, they tie in with the subject, the pro-life movement, abortion, the specific case, and Roe v. Wade potentially being overturned. Phone lines are open, but only for this subject, 866-34-TRUTH. I'm joined by my longtime friend, Reverend Pat Mahoney. He's been on the front lines of the pro-life movement for almost 50 years. He has seen ups and downs. He has seen the positive and the negative.

And right now, he sees something on the horizon that is unprecedented in terms of its real possibility. So we want to unpack that. We want to go through the details of it.

We want to talk about what you can do. So without further ado, Pat, welcome back to The Line of Fire. It's great to be with you, Dr. Brown. It's always such a blessing to be on the show. Well, good. Great to have you.

As always, we will be playing with our sound here a little bit, make sure we get a good sounding connection as we go on. So Pat, tell our listeners first your history in the pro-life movement. How far back does it go, and why have you been so passionate about this for so long?

It goes back. It's kind of interesting. Today, you didn't know this, is my 48th wedding anniversary, August 4th, 1973. And of course, tragically, that was the year that Roe v. Wade became law.

For me, this has been a passion of almost 50 years. And what I'd like to say to the listeners, Dr. Brown, this is not a political issue for me. This is a Gospel issue. The Bible clearly says in the New Testament to love your neighbor as yourself. And then Jesus gives an extraordinary example of who our neighbor is, with the parable of the Good Samaritan. And to boil that down, our neighbor is not a neighbor based on geography. In other words, it's not someone who lives right next to us or someone across the street.

But I think the Lord in that parable was saying our neighbor is the person within our culture, within our sphere of influence, who we come in contact with the most vulnerable and needy. And so I think anyone would be hard pressed to say the most vulnerable and needy within our culture today aren't these precious, innocent children, which tragically, 63 million have been lost since 1973. So what I often tell people, look, this is not a Republican issue. This is not a Democrat issue.

This is not a political issue. It goes to the most vulnerable people. It goes to the very heart of the Gospel. And it goes to the very heart of who we are as God's people. If we are crying out for cultural transformation, if we are crying out for nationwide spiritual awakening and revival, how can we not fully engage on the issue of the of these precious children? So I think what has driven me, Mike, is the whole sense that this isn't just an ancillary thing. This isn't just, quote unquote, another issue.

This isn't just something that we pile on with other social justice issues. This is the very foundation of who we are as God's people. And if we are believing for something extraordinary in our culture, if we are looking forward to a second Pentecost, if we desire to see the Holy Spirit move, then we have to engage on this. And that's what I tell my brothers and sisters in Christ. That's what I tell pastors. They say, Reverend Mahoney, we don't want to be involved on another political issue.

And I say, that's great. We're not involving you on that. We're involving you in the very heart of the Gospel. And that's why it's so passionate. And Dr. Brown, it goes to the integrity of the Church. It goes to the integrity of our message. It goes to the integrity of who we are as Christ followers and God's people.

If we remain silent on this, if we remain apathetic on this, if we are not repentant on the issue of the loss of these precious innocent lives and their mothers who are diminished through abortion violence, then the very foundation of who the Church is and what the Gospel is, is really drawn into question. So that's why I'm so passionate about it. And I appreciate your clarity, and I appreciate over the years how this has transcended politics for you. And it's transcended ethnicity. It's transcended race.

It's been a Body of Christ issue. So first, hey, 48 years. Amazing. You got Nancy and me by a few years there.

So congratulations. But yes, 1973, Roe v. Wade. What did things look like back then? Obviously, this was a newer issue then. In other words, it's not like you had been focused on this for 20 years at that point.

You're not that old. But what I've heard from older pro-life leaders is that the pro-life movement was really kind of hurting then, that pro-lifers were despised deeply in a lot of the wider culture, that it kind of looked like the death blow to pro-life movement as small as that movement was. Roe v. Wade is kind of over. Is that what you understand in terms of that looked like it's it, it's settled, then we lost?

For sure, two things happened. First of all, when we look at culture back then, although culture didn't fully understand the implications of abortion, the amount that embraced quote unquote women having the right to choose was about 73%. So there was a strong bias that America needed to be moving forward. We needed to be forward thinking about women's issues.

We're coming out of like the first wave of feminism that began in the mid 60s. Abortion was at the cornerstone. Basically, women were saying, look, if we don't have the right to decide the future destiny of our own bodies, then we are second class citizens. But I think also, Mike, no one believed that it would it would be enshrined in the Constitution. And it literally caught everyone by surprise. And it took a while for people to become aware what what did this really say? And it took several months to fully grasp that what the Supreme Court did on January 22, 1993, or 1973, was allow unfettered access to abortion on demand for any reason for nine months. And I think we should have been more prepared. And you and I have talked about this principle for a long time.

But for the church, it is much easier to stand and prevent injustice, or the crushing of human rights, or unjust laws before they pass, then try to change them once they have been enshrined in culture. So we were unaware. It was a nascent pro-life movement.

When you looked across the board, no one was fully expecting this. And it took us a while to get our legs under us. And I have to say, early in the 70s, up until the election of President Reagan, it was predominantly a Catholic issue. Evangelicals were not really fully engaged. And I don't think we fully grasped both the sociological issues, the cultural issues, and for me, the spiritual issues of what abortion implied, and its impact, and the fact that no right, no freedom, no liberty we have as Americans is secure, if we allow, and now, as we've moved over 48 years, promote, protect, and pay for, abortion is secure.

How can we possibly believe that our freedom of religion, our right of freedom to religion is protected when innocent children are allowed to be killed with the full protection of the government? So it was a difficult and challenging time, and it took us several years to sort out what happened, and then put a strategy in place on how to reverse Roe v. Wade and end abortion violence. All right, Pat, we just got two minutes before the first break, but what was the biggest case after Roe v. Wade, where there was potential to challenge that verdict, but it went the other way? What would that case have been?

That would have been Casey in 1992. We can talk after the break, but in essence, Pennsylvania enacted some laws that were restrictive for abortion. We didn't know this at the time, but the Supreme Court has a preliminary vote before the final vote, and in that preliminary vote, we have now found out, years later, that the justices agreed to overturn Roe. Unfortunately, Justice Kennedy was talked out of his vote to overturn by what Justice Sandra Day O'Connor introduced as the undue burden, and this has guided abortion law in the Supreme Court and the federal courts for the last almost 30 years. The concept that no state can put an undue burden on a woman who is getting an abortion. All right, listen, 30 seconds. How did that decision affect you and other leaders in the pro-life movement? It was devastating, because we thought that maybe we had a chance, and Dr. Brown, I have to tell you, and this is important for this case, we were not prepared, we were not praying, we were not fully engaged, and we added decades and decades onto the fight to end abortion because of our indifference and apathy on this critical gospel issue. All right, friends, I hope you're hearing that, and I've set things up this way for a reason, so you know the urgency of what we're facing now.

It's one of these things of, get this right now, or else. We'll be right back with Reverend Pat Mahoney. Tell your friends to tune in. We'll be right back. There again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm speaking with Reverend Pat Mahoney about a major case coming to the Supreme Court. It's incredible that they decided to hear it, and now further momentum has grown behind this case as those pushing it forward have articulated their larger goals, and a number of Republican governors have said, hey, we're signing on and backing this and urging the court to do what's right. So, Pat, you mentioned the setback in 1992, and the church really was not ready, praying adequately, a perfect opportunity to see Roe v. Wade overturned.

That was missed. Now there's been, it's been from 92 until 2021, so you're talking almost 30 more years have gone by, and yet where would you put public opinion now? Where would you say, has there been progress in your view?

Yes, and it's certainly not my view. I mean, you look at every major poll from Gallup, Marist, Quinnipiac. We have seen a major swing on the issue of abortion, for example, especially with people under 35, where people over 55, the majority, and a pretty good majority, support Roe v. Wade, where a majority under 35 oppose it.

Right now it's about 50-50, but Dr. Brown, here's one of the problems. People don't understand Roe v. Wade fully, and so when you look at this case, and it's called Dobbs v. Jackson Health Organization, it deals with banning abortions after 15 weeks. Every poll taken, and I'm talking CNN polls, I'm not talking about some conservative poll, across the board, it's 63% to 67% of all Americans oppose abortions in the second trimester.

It's two-thirds of America, and we're only one of five nations in the world that even allows this. So when we talk about extremists or militants or things like that, as pro-choice people often like to portray the pro-life movement, the extremists, the militants in this are the fringe majority of people who support these late-term abortions. So this case is so important, Dr. Brown, because for the first time, this is the first case in 48 years that actually addresses the child. Like a lot of the other cases, the Casey decision in 92 talked about something called informed consent, ultrasounds, and things like this. Many of the other cases have involved the most recent abortion case from Louisiana, that abortion clinics have the same regulations as standards as other ambulatory surgical clinics around the country, but this one completely deals with the child.

And here's where we've made our greatest advancement. In 1973, 50 years ago, we didn't have a window to the womb. We had no idea what was going on in there. Surgery and practices on children that were eight, nine, and ten weeks old was almost science fiction.

It was Star Wars-esque. It was unbelievable that it could be imagined. Now, really the argument and the debate is settled about the humanity of the child.

Justice Blackmun asked in the Roe v. Wade case, well, if this were a person, we really wouldn't be having this argument, would we? So 50 years ago, it's like, I mean, I think, Mike, what's happened in my last 50 years in terms of medicine and technology, and it's mind-boggling. So the greatest advancements that we have made, we have now fully come to a place where we hear a lot of this expression concerning the vaccine and other things, but believe science. We believe science. And that's our position, which of course, I love that science catches up to scripture and faith rather than the other way around. But science is now catching up to what the Bible said centuries ago, and that is we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

Well, we had no idea of that, even 50, 60 years ago, but now we do. So this case goes right to the heart of the child. And that's why it's so critical and so important.

And you know what else I love, Dr. Brown, which is so God-like. So, so many in the pro-life movement were really disheartened when President Biden was elected, and we had the most pro-abortion Congress and President in American history. But think of how God works. God transcends politics. God is not limited by the circumstances around us, but he moves in power and glory and majesty. The first six months of 2021, we have passed more pro-life laws in our states than at any six-month time period in history.

In fact, in any 12-month time period in history. And it's just amazing that this case is coming before the court with the most pro-abortion administration and Congress in history. I just love it. God says, OK, you guys worry about the pollsters and all of these things. I'm just going to move. So we are literally at the edge of something amazing.

And then you mentioned as if this case wasn't critical enough. So what has happened with these state laws? With heartbeat bills. Bills that ban abortions on children who are disabled.

The list goes on and on. They never get enacted because they can't pass the federal courts. They all get bogged down in district federal courts or in the courts of appeals. This case would open up all of these state laws that have been passed and completely put them within a different light of constitutionality. But if that wasn't enough, the attorney general for the state of Mississippi said, you know what? Let's just overturn Roe v. Wade in this case.

Like it shocked like everyone's there. What? And 228 members of Congress said, you know what? We agree over 300 state legislators and it's growing by the day. Agreed. It's now over.

I think 16 governors have agreed. This needs to be the case to overturn Roe v. Wade. And so we need to see this as the most important abortion abortion case since Roe v. Wade. And the implications are enormous on both sides. What happens if we lose?

What happens if we win? And I can say this. The greatest and most powerful resource we have for transformation in society, in individuals, for cultural change and ending abortion violence is prayer. Through prayer, we can see the Holy Spirit shape history and end abortion violence. And that's why we want to have the largest pro-life prayer gathering in the history of the Supreme Court on Saturday, October 2nd. We are giving out a national call, a joke call. We want people to come to Washington, D.C. and fill up the sidewalk in front of the Supreme Court. We're not having a political rally. We're not carrying signs.

We're not signing petitions. We are coming in repentance and brokenness and asking God to move powerfully to see that we win Dobbs v. Jackson. And so it's a hinge moment not only on the life issue, but it's a hinge moment on the future of our nation. 2020 was a very bad year. We had COVID. We had a very divisive national election. We had a very divisive time after the election. And people, particularly Christians, particularly Spirit-filled Christians, were confused.

And there seemed to be a lack of clarity in terms of voice and direction. It's almost as if God is sort of resetting us. And it's almost after all the bowling pins are knocked down and it comes back and it resets the pins. God is sort of resetting the perspective of the Church that we are coming into the public square and crying out to a sovereign God to move powerfully, miraculously and majestically in seeing this decision affirmed. And what I love about it, Dr. Brown, it's a way we can quantify prayer. Like, we can pray, Lord, bless the world.

But how do we kind of know that, right? We're coming to say, we believe God is going to move in this case and we can see it. So we're coming in repentance. We're coming in worship. The whole event will just be worship and prayer. There's not going to be any political speeches.

There's not going to be anything along that line. We are just coming, crying out to God and believing in this moment, in this moment, history will be forever changed. And could it be, and again, I love this, could it be that from the disappointment of November 3rd of 2020 and the inauguration of January 2021, could it be in this moment and season that God begins to ignite something extraordinary in our nation, in the most hostile of environments?

And we believe, yes, this is the time. So I'm pleading, I'm imploring. As you know, I'm not a...

I don't want to manipulate situations. We don't want to say the sky is falling and we have to respond spiritually. But this is one of those, for lack of a better term, Joel 2 moments. This is one of the moments where we physically need to come out and cry out to God. All right, stay right there, Pat. I've got some more questions if you can stay on the other side of the break. October 2nd, Mahoney is calling for the largest prayer gathering, pro-life, non-political, pro-life prayer gathering in front of the Supreme Court before they make this momentous decision.

We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, I'm speaking with pro-life leader Reverend Patrick Mahoney. He's been on the front lines of the pro-life movement for almost 50 years. As long as there's been a pro-life movement, he's been actively involved as an evangelical Christian. And there is a case now about to come to the Supreme Court scheduled to be heard in October that could be momentous to the point of literally overturning Roe v. Wade.

And the ripple effect of that, of course, would be massive. And he's calling for a massive prayer gathering in D.C. on October 2nd in front of the Supreme Court, a non-political gathering where there will be worship and prayer, crying out for God to work and turn the hearts of the Supreme Court justices. For those just tuning in, I'll give a brief recap as well. But, Pat, I want to address something for a moment. I know that you have been very non-political in your stands and that you work across the board racially, ethnically, politically for common good, uncommon causes. You referenced a disappointing election outcome November 3rd. You referenced the inauguration of Joe Biden. But you yourself were not part of Trump's inner circle. You are not one that was actively speaking out, you know, I'm all for Trump, et cetera. And you didn't take those political stands. But when you say disappointing, do you mean because Trump was a pro-life candidate and wanted to appoint more pro-life justices and Biden was a pro-abortion candidate who would appoint pro-abortion justices? Is that what you meant?

Yeah, of course. And thank you, Dr. Brown, for making that point because there has been a line there. We as Christians are about policy and truth. We're not about partisan politics. We don't surround one candidate. And so when we talk about the disappointment, we talk about the disappointment of policy. We don't talk about the disappointment of the person we talk about at the inauguration right now. And it didn't matter who would put these policies forward. Right now, we see the Hyde Amendment being removed from our budget for the first time in decades, where now we're going to have taxpayer funded abortion. We see that Congress won't even pass legislation or even take it up that protects children born alive from late term abortions.

So, yes, Dr. Brown, thank you for making that point. We do not surround our entrance into the public square around personalities, human personalities. We surround them through the Lord Jesus Christ and his eternal word and the principles embraced in the Bible. So I think it's critical for us to know that when we gather to pray, we are not gathering in support of a political party or political candidate. We are gathering in brokenness and repentance, crying out to God to overturn Roe, to move mighty and powerfully and even in a greater way than ending abortion violence, to ignite spiritual awakening.

That is our cry. That is what we are seeking. And Dr. Brown, for the listeners, this event is being sponsored by Purple Sash Revolution. I know that sounds like an interesting name. It's part of Stanton Public Policy Center, a woman's advocacy group standing for life and biblical principles.

And you can go to purplesashrevolution.com for more information about this, or there's a Facebook event page set up by them. It's Pray to End Abortion, hashtag Dismantle Roe. So purplesashrevolution.com or Facebook event page, which we just put up, Pray to End Abortion, hashtag Dismantle Roe. And I don't think we can emphasize enough, when we come on this issue, I think it's important for all of us to realize, when I enter into the public square, I am entering as a citizen of God's Kingdom bound to His Word and His principles. My allegiance is to God and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And so I am not beholden on any political party or candidate. We are committed to these eternal principles. So this prayer rally, I want to encourage everyone.

It is not even remotely a political rally. It's a solemn assembly of prayer and repentance. And you know what I love about prayer? It transcends the din of the media, of social platforms, of Twitter, of Facebook, of what CNN, Fox, it transcends what's going on politically. And we look to an eternal God who's not bound or limited by what's going on around us. And we see His transforming power move. And Dr. Brown, our hope is that as we prevail in this situation, that the Church will take a more public prayerful stand, a more prophetic stand surrounding God's Word within the public square.

Now's not the time to be retreating. Now is the time to step forward out of our safety and security and comfort and into the purposes of God for this hour. And this case, I believe, is a part of God's sovereign plan for that. I believe that this is, God throughout history always kind of used these moments. There was a giant to address. There was a walled city. There was a Red Sea that had to be crossed.

There was a hostile crowd gathered around 120 disciples in the upper room. God always uses situations within culture and society to shine forth His glory and to energize His people. And so that's what we are praying for here. And to think that since I've been married, over 60 million innocent children have died.

And as the late, great Dr. Francis Schaeffer said, every abortion clinic ought to have a sign out in front of it which says, open by permission and apathy of the Church. So this is our day. If you weren't there in 73, if you weren't even born, if you weren't there in 92, if you weren't there even 15 years ago, now is your moment. Come. Come to Washington, DC.

Come to seek God. We are praying for a specific concrete thing in which we will see the answer to our prayer, most likely in June of 2022. But if it's argued this fall, which we think it will, we could hear it. I mean, what would be awesome, Dr. Brown, if the decision came out our way on January 22nd, 2022? Wouldn't that be great?

Overturning row on January 22nd, 2022. But at any rate, we're inviting people to come pray. And my hope is, listen, there's no time limit there. If the Holy Spirit comes and there is a visitation of God and there's a touch of God, I mean, we'll stay out in front of that Supreme Court of Worship all through the night, all through the weekend. So we are believing for this extraordinary moment. And we're inviting everyone to come go to purple-revolution.com or the Facebook event page, pray to end abortion, hashtag dismantle row and believe with us and trust God in this historic moment. All right, Pat, a few more questions. And tomorrow we get to speak privately to a group of national leaders about this very thing and and get them on board, understanding the significance of being in D.C. to pray on October 2nd.

Obviously, those that can't be there can be praying wherever you are. But a short question, then I want to get into the deeper ones. And one has to do with the question, well, what do women do about abortion if they're urgent issues and it's post Roe v. Wade?

I want to get to that. But a short question. Do optics matter to Supreme Court justices? In other words, if there was some massive turnout, surely they'll know about it, the headlines that's right in front of their building. They may see it with their own eyes. If there's a massive turnout of Christians praying for a righteous verdict here and for the overturning of Roe v. Wade, obviously we're appealing to God.

That's the issue of prayer, not to put on a show, but to appeal to God. But do optics matter at all? They do. And you raise an excellent point. So the nine justices of the Supreme Court would say, no, no, no, optics don't matter. But they revealed their hand in the Lawrence case and other cases involving same-sex marriage and homosexuality. They clearly said in their written opinion that culture and society had moved and that they talked about demonstrations and they talked about public response.

So 100 percent. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to have this event. The court opens its new session in which they'll hear this case on October 4th.

That's why we wanted to be there October 2nd. We want the justices to see thousands of people on the street and hearing the message. Of course, we appeal to God and we look to God. But Dr. Brown, you even know when God worked miraculously throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, God would tell, like would name it, you know, dip in the water.

There were physical sort of things that helped unleash the power and God called us to do with the raising of Moses' staff and things like this. So the most important thing is crying out to God. But there is a strategic purpose here and we believe that if they see thousands of Christians praying and standing and then they understand that 65 percent of the American public in every poll, I mean every poll, support banning abortions after 15 weeks like they did with same-sex marriage.

Now, that was a negative thing. But we're just drawing the analogy here and the comparison that the justices do look at culture. They do look at society. They do see what is happening and they move forward.

And of course, the clearest example we saw with that in a positive way was the removing of Dred Scott and Plessy versus Ferguson and important civil rights cases. Got it. All right, friends, we come back. I've got a couple more questions for Reverend Pat Mahoney. But, Pat, once more, give out the Facebook page and the website where people can find out more about this October 2nd prayer rally. The Facebook page is just go into Facebook and type in Pray to End Abortion. It'll come up, then it'll be hashtag Dismantle Row, but go to purple-revolution.com.

PurpleSashRevolution.com. It's a wonderful outreach and they base it on the suffragists and women who wore purple sashes standing for freedom and justice and equality. And there'll be tons of people with purple sashes on which say equal rights for unborn women and end abortion violence.

So it'll be a beautiful panoramic view for the justices to see and the nation to see in front of the court. All right, friends, we'll be right back. I want to go justice for justice with key potential swing votes.

Maybe we could be praying for individuals that they would have God's heart and then ask just some basic abortion-related questions. Stay with us. Thanks, friends, for joining us today on the Line of Fire. I'm joined by Reverend Patrick Mahoney. And, Pat, what I love so much about your heart is that you've been talking about similar things for decades and you're just as passionate now and, of course, even more so with the potential of finally seeing Roe v. Wade overturned.

All right, we've got only 11 minutes or so, so we got to give short answers to things that you could talk about for hours. But someone posted on Facebook early on during the broadcast today, well, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, then women are just going to go to these back-alley abortion doctors. It's dangerous, etc. I know you've heard that a thousand times, but for some it's a major issue and they think, well, how is that right or fair? What's your response to that? Well, first of all, just look at the numbers prior to 1973. The mythology about back-alley abortions simply was not true. And you look at the people who pushed abortion, like Bernard Nathanson and others, it wasn't backed up.

The other thing is it's 2021. Women are powerful, extraordinarily accomplished, and to think that some woman would harm herself, it's just not a reality. It's a talking point that doesn't have any basis in truth. Well, what if a woman still wants to get an abortion? Are you saying, well, she just wouldn't have a right to because it's taken the life of the unborn? Listen, when we look, what we'd like to say is end abortion violence and make abortion unthinkable.

But the reality is that if a person is committed to a social injustice, whatever that might be, there is no force of law, unless you would lock people up to prevent them from moving forward. But the reality of back-alley abortions, the reality of what happened prior to Roe v. Wade, just look at the CDC numbers. Don't take my word for it.

I'm pro-life. You can say I'm not objective. Fair enough. Just look at the numbers that were out there. And they don't back up the reality. Plus, gosh, this is a longer topic, but it isn't 1963 anymore.

It isn't even 1973 anymore. And we can argue good, bad or ugly. But the stigma of women having children out of wedlock really isn't a part of our culture anymore. And there are so many programs and safety nets and supports and other things out there, both within the Church and the public square, that can help women who have economic challenges, who have other personal challenges, that we will stand with them. What we work for as Christians, we want to eliminate human problems and injustice. We don't want to eliminate human lives.

Got it, got it. Well said, and again, it's a much bigger topic to discuss. All right, so obviously, if Hillary Clinton had been elected in 2016, we wouldn't be having this conversation now, in terms of the potential of this case overturning Roe v. Wade, because the justices simply wouldn't be there. It would be slanted the other way, and they most likely would not have even agreed to hear this case, which would mean so many of the pro-life bills being passed state by state could still be shot down once they're ultimately appealed to the Supreme Court. So the tide has shifted. One of the most positive things President Trump did was appoint new justices.

But I remember that a friend of ours, an attorney with the Alliance Defending Freedom, was speaking at my home congregation maybe 10 years ago, maybe a little bit less than that. And he said, there's going to be a major case that comes before the Supreme Court about same-sex quote marriage. And it's going to be a 5-4 decision. And the swing vote is going to be Anthony Kennedy, who, of course, was a Reagan appointee, but shifting in certain ways. And he said, that's what it's going to come down to. Of course, that's what happened.

That's exactly what happened. So here you've got a Reagan appointee. At other times, it's been a George Bush appointee, and they've gone in directions that are unexpected. So you've got a Clarence Thomas, a Samuel Alito. I mean, you know where they're going to vote Scalia. You know where he's going to vote the liberal justices for the most part.

You know where they're going to vote. In your view, just break this down. Take three or four minutes and break this down. The new appointees, so Kavanaugh, Coney Barrett, Gorsuch, Kennedy, or now replaced it. Where's that going to go? Roberts, in your view, where are the key people here?

Okay. Number one, I had always maintained that Chief Justice Roberts was the true swing vote. So we have to look at Justice Roberts in this as we don't know where he'll go. But that still leaves five. That leaves, you know, Alito and Thomas, and then, you know, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett.

Here's the way that I look at it, Dr. Brown. Number one, all of them in their confirmation process, although didn't really fully address Roe, they said they were strict constructionalists. So that's a little signal, a dog whistle, if you will, in a good way, that there is no constitutional right for abortion. So if a person, by and large, and generally says, I'm a strict constructionalist, and I believe in the concept words of the Constitution, you would almost stay with 100% veracity, they would be pro-life because there is no right to an abortion.

This number that they found in the 14th Amendment just isn't there. Now, have people been disappointed with appointees? Yes. In fact, have people been disappointed with Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett, even since they've been appointed?

Yes. But I will say this, in terms of religious freedom, they've been 100% on point. In terms of protecting the church, they have been 100% on point. And knowing their backgrounds, it would be difficult for me to believe. I think the likely scenario, not likely, but more likely scenario would be they allow the ban on the 15-week abortions.

The big question would be, then that quantum leap, would they overturn Roe? And there are several options. They don't even have to address that question because it wasn't part of the original case. They can speak in interesting ways about it. So we are all fairly confident.

But our confidence comes from the Lord. But one would ask, look, the law stands in the lower courts. Why would the Supreme Court take this if they didn't want to make a more expansive decision or change on it? Like, if they agreed with that it's unconstitutional, it's an undue burden on a woman for a ban on abortion after 15 weeks, just let the lower appellate court decision hold.

Why would they even take the case if they didn't want to make some kind of change or comment on it? So that brings us great hope and optimism. But the bottom line is that's why we need to pray. That's why we need to pray.

Right, right. And the Supreme Court, it's interesting that in many cases they operate with unanimity or near unanimity. We don't hear about those cases as much, but you get rulings of 9-0 or 8-1 or 7-2. And some say, well, they try to work in harmony, et cetera.

Is that an issue here that we have to be thinking about as well? Well, certainly Chief Justice Robert likes to operate in that sort of oversight. He likes to build consensus. But I think in this case we still have seen some 5-4 decisions, 6-3 decisions.

And I'll just leave you with this. Sometimes you see a majority decision, but you don't see a majority in the opinion. Like, they've come to the final conclusion, but they came a completely different way. So listen, October 2nd prayer, prayer transcends, prayer moved my heart, prayer moved the heart of Saul, prayer moved the heart of people who fell one way. No man can stand before the power of God, and we believe that as we come in unified prayer, repentance, and worship, we'll see a sovereign move of God. And it's got to be part of a larger national revival movement of repentance in the church and turning to righteousness on many fronts.

And this is kind of like the tip of the spear, as Mother Teresa said decades ago, basically not to attack the women because this is a national sin, but when mothers kill their old children, then what else, how can you go lower as a society? So this has hurt us in so many ways, and making this right, it's the one way just to cling to mercy and hold on to that in the midst of the judgment that we should receive. And look, Pat, you don't want to be a pessimist, but as you said to me on the phone, if you lose this, I mean, take the air out of the tires and you push things back decades again, and who can even imagine something like that? So one last time, let our folks know where they can connect online for this October 2nd prayer rally in D.C. It will be, God helping, an historic moment in our national history, October 2nd, in front of the Supreme Court for a non-political Jesus exalting prayer rally.

Okay, the details, one last time. Uh, purplesashrevolution.com, purplesashrevolution.com, or Facebook event page, Pray to End Abortion, hashtag DismantleRowe, and Dr. Brown, to make your point, look how we had to labor 30 years after we lost the Casey decision. We're looking at that kind of wilderness here. I don't grow weary in well-doing. I always believe we're one day away from revival.

The apostles were surrounded one day, the Holy Spirit fell the next, but the reality is a loss in this case would add decades to our fight to end abortion violence. And think of all the casualties in these 30 years. So friends, let's do our best to be there, let's be praying now, God have your way, continue to turn hearts, continue to give us a heart for pro-life, and pray for Pat and those on the front lines that God would hold their hands up, strengthen them, and keep them safe. Hey, Pat, as we say to one another, on with the revolution. On with the revolution, brother. Thank you so much, Dr. Brown. God bless you. Thank you so much. Now, revolution, shake the nation, change the world, change the world. Another program powered by the Truth Network.