Israel Is Rocked by the New Conversion Law

Some major news from Israel. The definition of who is a Jew.

Oh yeah, a lot to cover. I'm going to put on my teaching hat today and really dig deep on an important subject. Do my best to give you insight on something major that happened in Israel this week. Welcome to our thoroughly Jewish Thursday broadcast here on the Line of Fire. Remember to call 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884 with any Jewish related question that you have.

866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. This news has been all over the world, not just in Jewish press, but in secular press as well. Major story in the New York Times says this. New York Times announces that there has been a change in the conversion laws. Israeli court says converts to non-orthodox Judaism can claim citizenship. People who convert in Israel to reform a conservative Judaism have a right to citizenship, the Supreme Court ruled, chipping at the power of orthodox authorities that see them as non-Jewish.

This is very big news and let me explain why. Judaism today is divided into three main branches, orthodox, conservative, and reform. Then you have within orthodoxy what's called modern orthodox that would be to the left, left-wing orthodox, and then you have ultra-orthodox that would be to the right. And then on the reform end you can go even further to the left to reconstructionist Judaism. But these are the three main branches, reform, conservative, and orthodox. Now when you hear conservative don't think conservative socially morally like I'm a conservative versus a liberal.

It has a different meaning. It means conserving or preserving certain Jewish traditions. This is what happened over the centuries. You basically had for many many centuries what you call traditional Judaism. So these would be Jews who believe what was in the Bible and believe what was in rabbinic literature and who submitted to the authority of the rabbis. They would be observing the Sabbath, keeping the dietary laws, living by the traditions, and then those who broke away would be more secular.

Anything just from some irreligious person to a worldly person to an atheist. But that was it. You were either a traditional Jew or you were not and broadly speaking. Then a couple hundred years ago in Germany as the Jewish community was coming out of having to be closed in kind of ghetto-like situations just living among themselves and we're getting exposed more to the communities and the world around them that some of the Jewish leaders said you know we have to be more enlightened. We have to be more understanding. We have to recognize that culture has changed and yes the scripture is holy but it's not it's not God's word the way you thought it was or there have been traditions or not that inspired and we you know we have to pick and choose and recognize you know the dietary laws they really don't carry and other things you know saying that God chose Israel uniquely that's ethnocentric and we have to be more broad-minded so this major reform movement came and in its in its origins it was very extreme you even had uh synagogues that would meet on Sunday rather than Saturday and then they brought musical instruments in which is something that the synagogues didn't have over the centuries and then there would almost be a flaunting of violating the dietary laws and things like that so reform Judaism began pushing back against what it saw as as an extreme legalistic outdated outmoded kind of small-minded Judaism that's how they looked at traditional Judaism and reformers said hey we're in the spirit of the ancient rabbis because they were reformers as well well a little over a hundred years ago there was a push against that but but this was the dilemma you had Jewish intellectuals from traditional backgrounds but they did not believe that Moses wrote the five books of Moses the way Jewish traditions according to Jewish tradition God dictated the five books of Moses through Moses and they they respected their traditions and honored them and realized that there are many beautiful traditions and that these traditions help keep the Jewish people separated from the nations and with a unique focus on the God of Israel but because of their intellectual beliefs that they did not hold the same what they would call fundamentalist views of scripture and tradition that that they couldn't agree with the traditional Jews the the orthodox Jews but they couldn't agree with the reformed Jews because they thought the reformed Jews were just losing everything so they said we must be enlightened but conserve our traditions hence the name conservative well over the century conservative Judaism has gone more and more to the left so that really you have on the left conservative and then to the left of that reformed Judaism and then on the right orthodox which as I said can be all the way ultra-orthodox or less so modern orthodox for example Ben Shapiro would be a modern orthodox Jew so he wears the Amica he is a traditional Jew but he would not be what you'd call a Haredi Jew ultra-orthodox with the long beard black coat and studying in yeshiva 14 hours a day that kind of thing so over the years as the modern state of Israel was formed and by the way I was bar mitzvahed a conservative Jewish synagogue on Long Island in 1968 and it was really wishy-washy it really was in other words I learned some Hebrew had to go to Hebrew school for for a few years a couple days after class each week and and you know after our school was done we'd walk over to the to the synagogue and go to Hebrew school there together with with my Jewish friends and we'd learn some Hebrew and we learned Jewish history and things like that but when I was bar mitzvahed when I was bar mitzvahed 1968 and I read a portion from from the Torah for the prophet you know whatever I was given to read and I memorized it you had to be able to chant it so you know read through and but no one said all right now Mike I want you to read this in English so you know what you're reading and it didn't dawn on me to read in English I didn't even know what I was chanting words so for me my bar mitzvahed a big part it was more of a social event than a spiritual event because the conservative Judaism matriarch was raised was really very wishy-washy and and that's why in conservative reform Judaism there's a higher degree of assimilation that those raised in that will leave their Jewish faith or background those raised a very traditional home let's that's going to be the same with any religious group so with the founding of the modern state of Israel certain arrangements were made with orthodox rabbis and they would have certain authority over religious matters over dietary matters over Sabbath and things like that and the the nation would operate the way it operated so there'd be freedom for people but there was an arrangement with the orthodox community say if there's going to be a wedding for it to be a Jewish wedding then you have orthodox Jews presiding over it so what's happened is that orthodox Judaism as Judaism is the accepted Judaism of the nation meaning that it is the orthodox and ultra-orthodox rabbis that will approve your hotel if you're going to be having weddings and events and things like that and and and bringing food do you meet rabbinic standards of kashrut of dietary law this is this is the way that it will be laid out okay a marriage has to be performed by an orthodox rabbi so i'm not orthodox well you go to another country many israelis will go to cyprus nearby get married there and come back and then the marriage is recognized to go to another country get married and come back because they don't want to do it under an orthodox rabbi so there is a degree of of control that the orthodox have had and while they recognize that reform and conservative jews are still jews they do not recognize it as valid judaism so the idea that you want to convert to judaism and become a citizen of israel all right so let's say you're a gentile a gentile christian you turn away from that faith you you become an orthodox jew convert to orthodox judaism marry an orthodox jew now you want to come to israel they would look at that and say okay it's a valid conversion you've been tested you've been tried you've been put through this you've been interviewed we recognize it as valid reform a conservative conversion they wouldn't recognize that that's wishy-washy that's like nothing you haven't really demonstrated jewishness or understanding what it means to be jew so we're not going to recognize those conversions because if you are a jew you have the right to return if your mother's jewish you have the right to to return and become a citizen in israel in israel this can be demonstrated you've converted to another religion so what if you convert to judaism you have the right to become an israeli citizen up until now if it was a reform or or conservative conversion the answer was no but now the supreme court after a years-long battle has said yes so orthodox jews ultra orthodox jews are very upset over this um let's look at this article in yeshiva world so this is orthodox ultra orthodox publication online and it says this israel's supreme court recognizes reform conservative gear it's the hebrew word for conversion in israel let's scroll down into this article a little bit and and see what it has to say israel supreme court ruled on monday so this past monday that people converted by the reform and conservative movements in israel will be recognized as jewish and can become israeli citizens through the law of return the ruling comes after a 15-year legal battle following petitions to the supreme court in 2005 demanding that israeli citizenship be granted to 12 residents who converted to the reform and conservative movements in israel the supreme court ruled in 1988 that non-orthodox conversions performed outside of israel are recognized but did not recognize non-orthodox conversions performed in israel israel's chief rabbis and religious politicians slammed the court's decision and promised that the ruling will be overturned the likud party netanyahu's party also condemned the ruling chief rabbi israel rav yitzhak harov yitzhak yosef said the decision of the supreme court is very unfortunate and seriously harms the shalamus the the well-being of am yisrael of the people of israel what the reform and conservative called gyor conversion is nothing but a falsification of judaism it means bringing thousands of goyim gentiles into am yisrael into the people of israel chief rabbi harov david lau so there's orth there is sephardic and ashkenazi chief rabbis he said whoever converted through reform and similar movements are not jews and no decision of the supreme court will change this fact he said it is unfortunate that through its decision the supreme court approves flooding israel with immigrants who have nothing to do with judaism every israeli citizen needs to ask himself in this said evening how is the state of israel a jewish state when every foreigner can become a citizen obviously many would challenge those who strongly say that's the very bigotry and small-mindedness we're fighting and how dare that we refuse someone who identifies as a jew and converted to judaism through reform and conservative circles that's the very bigotry that's destroying our country so obviously this is a hot issue in israel and there has been a lot of outrage over a video that presents non-orthodox jews as dogs yeah we'll we'll play that for you when we come back you'll hear it on radio on in hebrew but we'll tell you the content of it what's going on others will be able to watch on our facebook and youtube feeds get your calls a little while eight six six three four truth it's the line of fire with your host dr michael brown get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four truth here again is dr michael brown welcome welcome to thoroughly jewish thursday on the line of fire here's a number to call eight six six three four truth eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four look at this headline from the times of israel times of israel says this karedi party so karedi ultra-orthodox jewish karedi party likens reform and conservative conducts to dogs with kippot kippot meaning yarmulke's head coverings check out this video it's very sophisticatedly done in terms of clever and all this and it's by ultra-orthodox jews and obviously terribly degrading to other jews let's let's listen and watch yes so instead of a bar mitzvah you have a bark mitzvah and then image after image of dogs with with yarmulkes with side curls with taliot with with prayer shawls even one saying hey here's the grandmother of the rabbi and it's it's a dog studying holy books and then the end saying it's you need united torah judaism which is one of the the major karedi parties in israel to to lead the way you know to preserve true judaism uh again you could just imagine the level of outrage looking down haaretz which is famously liberal historic israeli publication what does that headline say nitan yahoo allies compare reformed jews to dogs in racist election ads yeah and and again plays the video there as well facebook takes down videos israel's election campaign turns vile in wake of top courts ruling on jewish conversions likud leans right strongly and works with the ultra-orthodox parties who have been strong supporters standing together with likud for the government and for the current coalition there's about to be yet another election this is the fourth in just a few years and hard to say what's going to come out of of this next election but this is the level of acrimony within israel right now and and the level of how ultra-orthodox jews look at these other jews because they say hey look you can't call this judaism you're not strictly observing the sabbath you're not strictly following the traditions of the rabbis you're not keeping the dietary laws you're not celebrating the the feast and holy days in full accordance with rabbinic law so how do you call yourself practices of judaism yeah you're you're ethnically jewish but you're not practicing judaism so let me let me take you behind the scenes just to help you see how a religious jew looks at this there's an article posted in the yeshiva world again this is an orthodox jewish website can from people from meaning orthodox practicing religious jews can from people use reform and conservative synagogues a halakhic analysis meaning a legal analysis so i'm just going to scroll through some of this this was written a couple years back by rabbi yahir hoffman he said someone once compared the topic under discussion to the selling of israeli of israel bonds at uc berkeley it is fraught with controversy if one brings up using non-orthodox synagogues the response from both sides is almost a vociferous reaction and one jam-packed with deeply rooted emotion are they really so intolerant that they cannot even walk into a reformed jewish building how pathetic you know hitler killed all killed all jews response are you telling me that even if the foot is completely glot ultra-orthodox they won't even use the social hall horrible just horrible the orthodox are completely out of control another response what's wrong with the reformed section of the kotel of the wall so he says the truth is that one cannot really understand another person without having walked a mile in his or her shoes the non-orthodox need to understand the orthodox so he says to do so a metaphor might come in handy no one argued that john mccain who passed away this week so a few years back truly loved america he loved what it stood for what it stands for he loved this country's ideals he loved america's principles its morals its standards two weeks ago when governor quamal made the horrific faux pas of saying that america was never great his largely democrat liberal audience actually booed him to those with any grasp of history and morality america's greatness was and is indisputable the fact that our grandparents and great uncles fought the evil that was the nazi regime and free the continent subject to unspeakable tyranny reflects our greatness although it may be hard for the non-orthodox to understand that the orthodox love torah true judaism they love what it stood for and what it stands for they love the torah's ideals its principles its morals and its standards rejection of these principles of judaism to an orthodox jew is tantamount to rejecting the ideals and principles of america to american patriot so he says there are five major principles under discussion one it is the deeply orthodox belief a deeply held belief that there is a creator who created the world two this kind and benevolent creator rewards good and punishes evil three this creator hashem used the torah as the blueprint of the universe four this creator endowed us with mitzvahs commandments both positive and negative ones in order to benefit us five he endowed us with a badge of honor the observance of shabbos sabbath when we declare these ideals to the world that hashem created it all and desires us to cleave to and emulate him and he says a rejection of any of these principles is a stab in the heart of the precious legacy that is the birthright of sinai what the orthodox hold so dear imagine if you will a club of racist americans that rejects jefferson's immortal phrase all men are created equal would a true patriot either rent or allow classes to be held in their building picture further organization organization x that denies others their inalienable rights to the pursuit of life liberty in the pursuit of happiness on principle when any self-respecting american attend a birthday party in the building of such an organization they wouldn't and while the overwhelming majority of reforming conservative jews do feel a connection to hashem into judaism they don't really know that their organizations reject many of these five affirmation aforementioned principles so we give some examples when reformed rabbi john l russo of senior rabbi of temple israel of hollywood california writes on the premier website excuse me of reformed judaism that he does not believe in the god of the bible this is a rejection of principles three four and five and quite possibly one and two as well when the conservative movement voted to a drive to approve driving on shabbos to attend synagogues in the 1950s this is a rejection of principles three four and five in 2006 when the conservative movements committee on jewish law and standards declared that an entire section of the laws of family purity no longer applies to this continue applies this continued the rejection of torah true judaism the orthodox objection is to the organizational rejection of the ideals but in no way do the orthodox reject the reform of conservative jew conflating and obscuring this distinction is a tactic of some of the less ethical members of the reform and conservative clergy the purpose of this falsehood is to rally the masses against the orthodox and to draw away attention from the organizational rejection of thousands of years of torah true belief so he says let's get back to the headline the halakhah the legal ruling itself about using the buildings of reform and conservative synagogues the maharam sheikh so uh maharam being uh an abbreviation for marina harov uh yeah marina harov so our great rabbi teacher sheikh and then with his first name uh writes that praying or spending time in a synagogue that does not conform to torah law as a torah prohibition the gamarra so speaking of the talmud in yoma 70a explains that the appearance of doing a mitzvah is considered like doing a mitzvah on account of the verse the greater the number of people the more glory to the king since praying in a place that does not conform to shulchan aruth the jewish law code is considered by the rambam rabbi moses maimonides is a sin even appearing there at the times they pray as forbidden and he goes on and on so he's going to give one ruling after another after another including the the the the leading legal authority of orthodox jews in america of the last generation uh rob musher feinstein that he gave these rulings so saying hey we recognize that you're jews and yes hitler would have killed jews jews but we don't recognize what you were practicing as judaism therefore we cannot share your buildings that would be the orthodox and ultra especially the ultra orthodox viewpoint so the question is now if you recognize a reformer considered you as a jew then shouldn't that give them the right to return the argument would be well we don't recognize the conversion as being valid therefore we don't see them as truly jewish and on and on it goes i share all this because it's big news and and i want you to understand why the controversy exists and you could see each side the one side saying i converted to judaism this is the judaism i know i now worship the god of israel and and follow certain traditions different than i used to live and i want to live in israel as a jew how dare you stop me what kind of state is this and the other side is the only way that we can preserve being a jewish state is by having a real judaism judaism and if you erode the foundations and the fundamentals it'll be nothing left and the nation will be overrun by gentiles claiming to be jews who don't even live as jews so that's the situation how is it going to affect the elections i don't know i haven't dug deep enough into the data and what's being discussed to understand that and haven't seen fully the reaction of the israeli public if we get an idea of where they stand who they're standing with on this i can say that many israelis resent the control that the orthodox have i can tell you that they resent the fact they have to have an orthodox rabbi perform the wedding they resent the fact that certain restrictions are put on them at certain times of the day or year so those are issues we shall see how this plays out we come right back straight to your calls eight six six three four truth it's the line of fire with your host dr michael brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution here again is dr michael brown now come on can can you can you listen to that that's half of your feet not i got to the left of me on the other side of my studio here two drummers and i don't yeah they're actually moving around there but it's i can't listen that without tapping my feet and my spirit jumping welcome to the line of fire it's thoroughly jewish thursday we want to go to your calls eight six six three four truth and we'll start with vadim in guadalajara mexico welcome to the line of fire hey how are you good good hey could you do me a favor could could you say the name of your city and country the way it's properly said in a proper spanish accent yeah that's it all right thank you what's your question sir only my country is ukraine but that's okay oh yeah yeah well that's hey listen that's that's ukrainian mexican it's better than my american uh spanish so go ahead my question is this dr brown uh i understand uh how would you explain the the fact that in ezekiel and the vision of ezekiel at the third temple he speaks of a sin sacrifice as being present in the third temple what kind of sins would those sin sacrifices are telling for namely like ezekiel 43 verses 18 through 27 there's certain laws of sacrifices and including sin sacrifices as well yep yeah so it's an important question sir and one that i think any person seriously studying scripture and having a christian outlook on scripture would would ask so let me take this down in several lines okay first in context it seems the expectation was ezekiel 40 through 48 would be fulfilled when the jews returned from babylonian exile it even indicates that ezekiel himself would be involved in the temple services from which later jewish teachers said well that must point to the resurrection then but he was supposed to show them the plans the people in exile they'd be ashamed and then when you read other passages from the prophets jeremiah ezekiel isaiah it it seemed as if the jewish people returned from exile that god would bring national repentance and then the temple would be built and it would be glorious and the nations would come streaming in that was the expectation of course it didn't happen so what we talk about is the third temple when ezekiel was receiving this message he would have thought it was the second temple so that's the first thing how exactly will it be fulfilled will it be fulfilled as a third temple literally question mark second issue is the dimensions are different than solomon's temple or the tabernacle of moses so how could it be the same torah law that creates problems for rabbinic jews for traditional jews and there's a statement in the talmud that that one man worked on it for night after night after night just you'd say like burn the midnight candle for months and months and months and finally figured out how to resolve all the apparent contradictions but we lost his data so all that to say this presents problems for a traditional jew so historical fulfillment question mark presents problems for a traditional jew thirdly there are christians who say this was a vision given to ezekiel as a priest and it was the vision of glorious restoration that's how god gave it to him as a priest but its ultimate fulfillment will be a spiritual fulfillment in other words not a literal temple not literal sacrifices but rather something of a spiritual import and we should understand the whole thing spiritually and that's not my own view but there are christians who hold to that so that gets me now to options four or five or i should say points four or five the first issue being historic fulfillment second issue being contradictions with the current torah dimensions third issue being perhaps a future spiritual fulfillment so to me there there are two other options one option is that just as the sacrifices under the sinai covenant looked forward to the cross and anticipated the once for all sacrifice of the messiah that the sacrifices in the millennial kingdom which is when we believe the third temple will be built we'll look back so just as one look forward the other will look back and remember the jewish nation will be a priestly nation teaching the other nations about the god of israel during this time uh is it in harmony with what hebrew says about one sacrifice for all and no more after that that's a question it's a valid question to raise but there are some christians who say hey one look forward the other will be looking back the other option and this is something i've discussed with professor richard averbeck who is a sumerian scholar but along with that in terms of old testament scholarship one of the the top evangelical christians in terms of understanding the levitical laws and the purposes of these things and in his view the the sacrifices under the sinai covenant primarily had to do with ritual cleansing and defilement and things like that and that they pointed towards the cross for ultimate atonement so it's no problem to have sacrifices because they're not competing with what jesus did in other words they're dealing with other aspects of ritual impurity or uncleanness or sin but not in terms of once and for all reconciliation and getting right with god so that's another view that should be explored and and obviously you don't have the equivalent say of the day of atonement and the exact same sacrifices being offered for the same purpose why not and then there are other rabbinic traditions that said it in the world to come that the only sacrifices offered will be thank thanksgiving offerings because we'll be living in a new day and era so those are possibilities and what i'm sure about is what god did through yeshua on the cross what i'm sure about is the overall harmony of the testimony of scripture exactly how this will play out i'm not sure and i do believe there'll be a literal temple and that could well be with literal sacrifices if so they will either point back to the cross or be unrelated to what jesus did on the cross last point uh oh two years ago maybe i was really thinking about this a lot praying afresh over these passages and asking god to give me insight then one of my colleagues one of my closest friends emails me and says mike has god given you any insight i don't see you go 40 through 48 i said i'm just praying over to fresh i went from there to be at a major conference in kansas city and there are some brothers said hey would you like us to spend some time praying with you and and and praying prophetically so as they're praying over me two of them had had words out of the blue and knowing nothing of this that god was going to give me insights into ezekiel's temple so i don't have those yet i didn't get them yet but but i shared with you what i what i do know and understand got it uh uh but what what about uh the fact that paul the next 21 he does pay the expenses for the nazirite to bring sin sacrifices as well as part of the completion of the vow right right so that that would be in harmony with professor averbeck in other words that sacrifices were fine and had a certain role and function and did not ultimately bring us forgiveness of sin or final reconciliation with god or the removal of a guilty conscience that only comes through the messiah's blood so it was no problem for paul to do this because it wasn't contradictory so that that would that would go hand in hand hey thank you sir for the question and uh what when my book comes out secrets of ezekiel's temple we'll we'll make sure to tell you about it okay yeah yeah and by the way for those just listening on radio or podcast i said that with a big smile i'm not actually working on the book right now but if god gives me insight hey i'd love to do it all right our friend manny in brooklyn how you doing man hi dr brown yeah uh hey quick question what do you think about the supreme court ruling in israel um uh actually it's interesting uh i i think there's just a dilemma uh a while back what his name john kerry he said israel could either be a jewish state or democratic it couldn't be both and many people took that to be anti-semitic and all that stuff but sadly i agree with him either you build a state on jewish law on halacha on on as it's supposed to be you know or you build it secularly and then you just make whatever rules you want maybe like america where you have a constitution you have the you know the rights for everyone you have freedom of speech you have other stuff but i don't think you can really have you know eat your cake and and have it you know at the same time you know it's it's an interesting point uh and and friends for those who don't know our friend manny he's an orthodox jew that's uh looking into different things and dialoguing with me and taking issue with some things i've written and taught but what's interesting is israel exists as a jewish state more or less in the way conservative and reformed jews are jews in other words it's broadly jewish it recognizes the seventh day sabbath as the calendar go around that but it's not it's not religiously jewish on every level you know you can eat on kosher food in different settings and things like that so it is kind of interesting anyway so so back to you what's on your mind today um well i wanted to continue talking about daniel the ninth chapter but i'm getting a little nervous that maybe the audience is getting bored of that topic and maybe they want me to move on so i i figured i'd ask you either either i talked about daniel nine or isaiah 53 what do you think well let's let's go isaiah 53 uh yeah let's let's let's do it and and i again uh i think our listeners enjoy our conversation and find it educational and on your end you're getting a lot of people to pray for you so that's good yeah let's so let's uh let's start in isaiah 53 what what are your issues with with that um so i've seen certain things you've you've spoken about it you know you famously the anti-missionary point like took your singer like to rattle off the servant called israel throughout you know like the the chapters beforehand and uh you pointed out and some of your conversations like the rabbi bloomin saw which you've debated before that like isaiah chapter 50 uh 50 and 49 there's a servant who's an individual so as we're coming closer to uh there's chapter 53 it's more zooming into an individual um so but i mean i give i give a look at chapter 49 and it seems to me like the first verse is talking in first person and you know the it seems like the servant is writing this passage himself and chapter 50 it's also spoken in the first person and it sounds like it's the prophet here who's talking about himself and this individual whoever he is in in in 49 and 50 is someone alive at the time that the book of isaiah was published so i don't see how that helps interpreting the servant as being the messiah who wasn't yet born when the book of isaiah went into print would you agree that it refutes the idea that the servant is always israel in these chapters in isaiah i i think it would definitely leave an opening to uh maybe interpreting it as being talking about the prophet talking now and that it could be perhaps uh not just uh the nation as a whole but certain individuals within the nation got it okay i highly doubt that the context could say then suddenly it means every servant ever lived and and you know there could be anyone in the future so it could be i don't know maybe me for example i don't think that's the case all right but so we agree though that it refutes the idea of counter mission as i told you singer that the servant is always israel the preceding chapters you're saying no some of these it seems to be the prophet himself right we'll pick up there on the other side of the break and then get to some more calls stay right here it's the line of fire with your host activist author international speaker and theologian dr michael brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four true here again is dr michael brown welcome welcome to 30 jewish thursday on the line of fire so back to our friend manny in brooklyn so the first thing that i want to do is dismiss this idea that the servant is always israel which which i've heard since i was a new believer so in chapters 41 to 53 that the servant is always israel that's that's clearly false or even to say if it's not the nation that it's a group it's the righteous remnant well that's false because 49 and 50 indisputably are an individual and yes rabbinic interpretation would largely say it's the prophet speaking there all right um isaiah 42 is another passage that if you look at radach for example or targum they understand that to be the messiah so that would be another individual and in each case and there's a parallel between 42 and 49 because this individual is called to be a light to the nations and a covenant for his own people israel so that's the first thing to to lay out and to to demolish that false statement here's the second thing is it possible that the prophet spoke these things of himself and was was even the initial subject of isaiah 53 this individual who who was suffering for the sins of others and yet it finds its fulfillment in the messiah because whoever that individual was it didn't bring any type of national healing or anything and it does say that at the end of 52 13 that he'll be highly exalted in a way that will startle the nations that obviously didn't happen with whoever wrote those words so even if it was initially the prophet himself speaking it i would say they find their fulfillment in the messiah yeah but we i thought your argument was you find contextual proof that's talking about an individual which which is the messiah but uh i guess i guess the point i'm trying to make is there's no contextual proof really that we're talking about a servant messiah the only thing we see is servant prophet servant israel and chapter 42 i mean it's not totally clear rashi they would interpret you know it to be israel and in chapter 49 uh the prophet is told that you know you israel are my servant and the way i would interpret that is that being that god is telling every individual jew and to the prophet himself you are you are you are an israelite and you're my servant and later on in the chapter where god speaks from second person saying you know i'm going to make you into a light for the nations and and you're going to i'm going to make you a covenant for for the people i think that could be interpreted talking about israel as a whole you know i'm saying but so i i think and also chapter 45 to 42 is pretty far from 53 so but but the bottom line is i don't see any contextual proof from any of the servant things that's referring to the messiah yes so so here's the contextual proof in the 42nd chapter his teaching will be sought out by the ends of the world the ends of the earth and he will be a light to the nations and he will set the captives free namely the captive israel like someone set the captives free 49 is a clear parallel to that some of the identical language is used right which would indicate that whoever's being spoken of in 42 which some rabbinic interpreters say is the messiah because who else is going to do what he does and this is a massive global mission 49 speaks of the same one but he seems to have failed in his mission because his own people israel are rejecting him and yet god says no not only will you succeed in regathering the exiles but you will also be a light to the nations then the 50th chapter speaks of the same individual beaten so why can't it be the holy spirit speaking through the prophet in a prophetic way why can't it be the holy spirit speaking through the prophet in terms of one to come so i have clear power between 42 49 50 then 52 13 starts by saying that he will be highly exalted i mean extreme terms that even the midrash says higher than abraham moses and the ministering angels that kings will shut their mouths over him you're talking about messianic proportions and that's why the midrash and mosha alsheikh 500 years ago said we all interpret this with with reference to the messiah 52 13 to 15 those three verses and then it now continues to talk same thing like 49 50 reject it same thing as 50 beaten violently we must understood what he was doing yet it brings redemption he dies and then continues living so all i had was those four chapters 42 49 50 and then in the 52 13 to 53 12 i'd say you tell me who that's talking about you tell me who did this who was rejected by his people suffered a violent death rose from the dead has become a light to the nations and will one day be even more fully exalted for the to the shock of the whole world and to the astonishment of the jewish community if that's not textual evidence of the messiah spelled out i don't know what is well again as i've demonstrated chapter 49 and chapter 50 is spoken in the first person so it's probably someone who already existed no no you missed my you didn't answer my question you're saying it's impossible for the holy spirit to speak through an individual on behalf of a later individual it's not impossible but the the the text seems to be talking about some of the author himself but it didn't happen but someone was not born but it didn't happen with that author but there's no time limit there's no time limit here unlike let's say daniel 9 where you try to have a time limit there's no time limit here so it could keep up but so so sorry so just to be clear and and we'll continue okay we'll continue god willing in in a few weeks we're just starting on isaiah 53 but obviously gotta be fair to other callers so what we'll continue but you're saying you're saying you have no problem with this being spoken with reference to the prophet so 2700 years ago but it still will happen and i'm saying why can't it be the holy spirit speaking through the prophet on behalf of the messiah is is which is more logical and isn't this a messianic mission doesn't this comport with the mission of the messiah so if i see this isaiah 42 which again some rabbinic interpretation says is the messiah then i see the same thing in 49 well that tells me it's the holy spirit speaking through the prophet the voice of the messiah messiah's pre-existing too isn't he all right so we'll god willing we'll continue manny all right thank you sir as always for the call 866-34 truth let's go to mary in demoine iowa welcome to the line of fire got your radio turned down there mary i tell you what uh shelley will try to help you when we get a second here uh let's go to cj in boise idaho welcome to the line of fire yeah and thank you for taking the call of course um so i wanted to ask a question about the uh divine name so i'm i'm only a hebrew learner i do want to be clear so i don't i don't want to sound like i'm you know more you know expertise or anything like that than i actually have or anything like that but um i've been looking through arguments for yehova versus yahweh and i it seems to me that everything the evidence seems to indicate yehova it doesn't seem like it seems like there's like 11 some odd rabbis say it's yehova i can't find a single one from the ancient times this is yahweh there's numerous texts that trends are like uh what would you call that uh manuscripts manuscripts that have it yehova but none that seem to have yahweh uh and then some of the grammar rules i'm starting to learn like for example a a a uh a hey at the end of a word almost always indicates an ah vowel i can't think of any situation where it indicates an a vowel like yahweh yeah so yeah so just to jump yeah jump in um thank you for saying that you're just learning hebrew because there there's an endless line of words that ends with with uh the the hey showing segol so moray for example teacher all right it's just it's a very very common ending it's it's extremely common so let's let's throw that out okay the second thing is that all ancient inscriptions that have names with the divine name in it will follow something closer to the yahweh pattern in other words the masoretic manuscripts had the vowels put in the many many centuries later there are some manuscripts that have no vowels written because the name is considered too sacred to pronounce others have the vowels of adonai written and then the vowels of adonai combined with the consonants of of yahweh come up with yahowa or yahova or jahova but that was christian scholars in the enlightenment period that started reading the hebrew and didn't understand what was happening there and got it wrong you will not find uh traditional rabbis or traditional rabbinic literature over the centuries identifying the divine name as jahova that that simply won't be found so are you mainly reading stuff by nehemia gordon or or folks like that nehemia gordon is definitely one of my primary sources yes yeah so what you need to do is the thorough refutations of nehemia gordon the the problem is that um some of the nehemia gordon's an academic guy himself but some are written in in um such academic language that they may be harder to follow but even if you just do something like this go go to jewish encyclopedia okay jewish encyclopedia it's an online encyclopedia and and type in i think they'll have jahova if not type in tetragrammaton and they'll even show you with masoretic vocalization when when words occur in in different um uh when you have a grammatical form with a preposition before or one word following another that it changes vocalizations and indicates that no no no this yahowa thing was was never ever seen or known the again the ancient evidence of inscriptions where we have more full forms written out in in what would be called a syllabary so it's not just a consonant but a constant and a vowel they would all support the the yahweh reading and then the shorter uh yahoo form uh and not yahova again it's nothing that we divide over but uh jewish encyclopedia just in with tetragrammaton or yahova which you'll find there one or the other you'll even see some grammatical arguments there that if you can follow them will refute this idea but keep learning keep studying and as as you learn some more stuff then then give me another call we can continue the conversation hey friends may the lord's blessing and grace be yours let's remember to pray for the lost sheep of the house of israel god open the hearts and minds of your Jewish people to jesus yahshua the messiah