Hope with Dr. Allen Holmes

Nothing says Christmas like a water buffalo. For a poor family in Asia, getting a water buffalo is like getting a farm tractor to pull a plow, or getting a milk truck full of delicious milk, or getting a stand at the market to sell cheese.

A water buffalo opens the door for work, food, and income. More importantly, it opens the door to talk about Jesus. And nothing says Christmas better than that. We'll be right back after this campaign. We've been given another Christmas present to share some wonderful, cool folks with you today on Kingdom Pursuit.

And we'll just get started. First off, we have Burt Jones, and he is the chaplain, actually, here in the state capitol of North Carolina. And he's been in the Congress four different terms, and he is with Capitol Commission. So welcome, Burt. Thank you, Rob. It's great to be here with you today.

And he's got quite a story of how God led you into political office. You know, we've got to find out about this stuff. Very good.

Looking forward to it. Me too. And also, very cool, in the studio, right in front of me, I have Pastor Alan Holmes, and he's the author of his book, Redefined a Simple Path to a Hope-Filled Life. Wouldn't we all like a simple path to a hope-filled life, Alan?

Yeah, that's right. And so we're excited about his book, but you know, it's Kingdom Pursuit, so we got to do Robbie's stuff here. So speaking of hope, since it was, you know, in your tagline there. So being the Christian car guy, you're gonna like this one, Keith. When I die, I hope it's peacefully in my sleep. Like grandpa, right?

Not screaming in terror like his passengers. You liked that, didn't you? I liked that one. And actually, I had hopes of making my racing snail faster. So I removed its shell. Did you know what happened, Keith? What happened?

It only became more sluggish. It was... Come on, bird, it was a little funny, you know. Very little, yes. Very little.

So you may not know this, but I've thought about it. 20 years ago, we had Bob Hope, Johnny Cash, and Steve Jobs. Now we've got no cash, no hope, and no jobs.

I mean, literally, we don't. I like that one. So with that in mind, we don't want Kevin Bacon to die.

This would be bad. Just as a side note, Keith, which you don't know, and the reason why I find this particularly funny, is that my mother's maiden name was Bacon. It's true.

I don't know if I'm related to Kevin, but I do know that my grandfather's name was Harry Bacon, and even more concerning was his brother's name, Dewey Bacon. You know what I can say, you know? He would fry you whenever. So anyway, you knew after all those shenanigans, I would actually, and I do, have a Bible riddle for you, if you can answer today. We're hoping you can win this new book. Fine, so here's your riddle.

And I really like this one, Keith, by the way. Which prophet's enemies they hoped, you know, because we're on this idea of hope, they hoped he would die in a deep hole that was once filled with water. You might think they meant well. Which prophet, right?

His enemies hoped he would die in a deep hole that was once filled with water. You might think they meant well. 866-348-788486634, truth, and if they can guess that, Keith, tell them what to win. Well, Robbie, you can win the very own copy of Redefine, A Simple Path to a Hopeful Life.

There you go. And I can tell you, this is an awesome book. 86634, you know this one, come on. Who's the prophet that ended up down in the hole?

866348-788486634, truth. And so, again, just to jump right in there, Burt, you're laying there one night in bed and all of a sudden God says, Burt, I want you to go to Raleigh. And you said, what? Can you take us into how that was, actually?

So, I guess you could describe it a little bit like, you know, when Isaiah said, is it I, Lord? At the time, I had been involved in local politics for a number of years. And I served as a county commissioner in Rockingham County. I really had not intended to run any further than that.

I retired from that in 2008 and didn't expect to serve again. Two years later, we were trying to recruit a good candidate to run for the legislature in our area. And, you know, it kind of ended up, the lot fell on me, I guess you would say. I think the Lord did impress upon me really late in the game that year. I had been active in trying to get some other folks, and we just never really got the right candidate. And the Lord just impressed upon my heart, and my wife was extremely supportive, and people were very supportive of me doing it.

And it's a long story, but, you know, it's an opportunity that God really revealed himself. We had never had a candidate to run as an unaffiliated or an independent candidate at the time and come in that way, be elected. And we did that and won the election by 12 percentage points.

And that was at a time when people were voting straight party tickets and so forth. It was just, you know, I said at the time I knew that God was calling me to run. I didn't know if he was calling me to win, but he certainly made it happen. You know, it's been a great journey. Had the opportunity to serve for four terms there before I retired, and now to serve in the capital commission role, I really feel like that that's a big reason why the Lord took me to Raleigh to start with as a legislator, that I could have the opportunity to be doing what I'm doing now. But from what I understand, you know, kind of like the character in Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, you started out as a dentist?

Yes. So I'm a dentist by profession. You know, our state legislators are supposed to have lives at least outside the legislature. So that was my career path, was dentistry. And I'm still a licensed dentist, but I've had the opportunity to wear a few hats along the way.

Sometimes I think I need a little bit bigger hat rack, but I do wear a few different hats. That's one of them, yeah. That's really, really impressive. Well, Pastor Allen, he's the author of Redefined, and so similar question to you. Like, was there a, you know, I know you're obviously very busy as a pastor of Definition Church there in Greensboro. There's a lot going on, and writing a book just takes a whole lot of time and effort.

How did that work out for you? Well, Robbie, it's a good question. For years had, you know, really felt like God had called me to write. My mentor, Dr. Bennett, said to me for years, he said, anything worth saying is worth writing. And he was always pushing me to write because he's, you know, he helped me to understand that when you write, it allows your message to have shelf life.

Any given Sunday, when I preach a message, it might be the best message I've ever preached, and by Wednesday, I can't remember it, you know. So a book is different. A book puts a message in writing and gives it, I think, more time to really settle in people's hearts. I think there's value in that and also allows you to get your message beyond the walls of our church. So this past fall, for example, when the book was released, I had 12 other churches who did a sermon series with me through the Beatitudes, which is what the first section of the book is about. And so the message went beyond just one church and 12 churches around the country. They were studying the Beatitudes and using the book as a resource. So I just felt called to write for a long time.

And then when COVID hit and everybody had a little extra time, you know, there was a lot you couldn't do. I started putting it in writing. How awesome is that? Okay, the book is redefined, as well as Capital Commission.

You'll find it both at kingdompursuits.com. And so we've got so much more coming back with Kingdom Pursuit. So we've got Samuel, who feels like he knows about this prophet that ended up in the hole, just saying.

We'll be right back. Welcome back to Kingdom Pursuits, where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the Kingdom. And what a treat we have today with Burt Jones with the Capital Commission and their chaplain at the North Carolina State Capitol and Pastor Alan Holmes. He's the pastor of Definition Church, and his new book redefined a simple path to a hope-filled life. And we have Samuel, who is going to answer for us, of which of these prophets was down in this hole. So Samuel, you're on Kingdom Pursuits. Good morning.

Good morning. I believe that the answer is going to be Jeremiah. They thought well, didn't they? I'm not going to lie. Me and my mom was riding in the cockpit, and he or she said, well, that's easy. That's Jeremiah. And I said, well, let's find out.

You are exactly right, and we've got a redefined headed your way. Did you know, this is really a neat thing, that the reason why I love that whole concept of Jeremiah being down in a well, as you may know, he was the weeping prophet. Wrote the book of Lamentations as well, and in Hebrew, the word for eye is the same thing as well. Because out of your eyes flow living water literally. Living water. The water that is in tears has got all sorts of different cool stuff in it that helps relieve you from, you know, what it is you're suffering with. And so here is this prophet that was the weeping prophet, these eyes, you know. And when you think about your salvation experience, most people, like when John Bunyan wrote in Pilgrim's Progress, that Pilgrim weeps uncontrollably at the foot of the cross because, you know. And that idea of living water coming there at your salvation is really, it's a cool thing.

Have you ever thought about it? Not in the way that you just put it out there, but yeah, when you talk about the tears have, you know, those healing properties and all that. That's amazing when you think about it in the concept for your soul, you know, of healing for your soul.

And through that same method, even though tears are external, but they're doing something internal, you know, also, that's really cool. It is. Well, Samuel, you know, since, you know, you're kind of a, you know, based on your name, you know, you've got a long history of. Really?

Really? That's pretty biblical. That's awesome, Samuel. Thank you for calling in today.

That took courage. And we're so glad that you won this book. I know you're going to enjoy it. Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you. God bless.

Bye. So I, you know, I am always thrilled when I get authors because I just think it's really, you know, how cool is it? God gave you this adventure to go on. And so I have a sense with every author that God gives them really cool stuff along the way that surprised him.

Like, man, I didn't see this coming. And so what was that in your book, pastor, that kind of grabbed you? Like, I didn't, oh, I didn't see this coming when I, you know, you sat down to write on the Beatitudes. You've been a pastor for 20 years. I'm guessing you preached through them a few times.

And so what grabbed you? You know, I think one of the things that really caught my attention is when you think about what we see happening in culture, I think so many people are discouraged about their faith. I think a lot of people who've been in church for years feel like, I've tried this and I'm not sure that it's working. You know, they're trying to do the right thing. They're trying to experience God and he feels distance.

They're trying to change and change seems to never come. And when you start studying the Beatitudes, what you realize is that was all true in the first century. And Jesus begins this message by over and over again inviting us into a blessed life.

But what's surprising is the path. And so he begins, you know, of course, blessed are the poor in spirit, which, you know, seems a little confusing. And then blessed are those who mourn like you were just talking about. And blessed are the meek and blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

And all of those things were true for the crowd, the people that he's talking to. I think most of those things are true for a lot of people in American culture today who maybe they've been in church for years, but they don't feel blessed. They don't feel close to Jesus.

They are longing for more. And Jesus comes with this very encouraging message. And he's inviting them into this life.

But the path is surprising. It's not propping yourself up and try harder and, you know, act like a Christian. And if you want to be blessed, you know, you better do the right thing.

It's the opposite. It's acknowledging our spiritual bankruptcy. It's our brokenness over our condition and the condition of the world that we live in. It's humility and brokenness and surrender, dependence. It's this life with God where he begins producing new life in us.

And I think that's different than what most people have experienced. Yeah, yeah. And what a neat thing it is. You know, I can't help but just reflect on actually 119 Psalms starts with a couple of beatitudes, right?

But then when it gets to the Hebrew letter Dalet, which, you know, they say that that idea of humility is a doorway to spirituality, and he starts out with, �My soul cleaveth under the dust.� Right? Like, that's where it takes. Interestingly, you know, I see it so often when I get a chance to meet with the guys from the Winston-Salem Rescue Mission, right? Here's these people that have really been homeless. They've been this and that. But God, they got to the point of humility where, right?

Right. And you think about these people that are sitting there looking down on the rescue mission that are on the 10th floor of the Piedmont building in Winston-Salem, and those poor people don't realize that to get what it is that they're so hungry for, they got to get thirsty, sort of. Well, that was certainly true for me. So my story, and you'll read this in the beginning of the book, is I went to seminary, but the truth is I didn't have much humility. So I'm in seminary, preparing to be a pastor.

I love Jesus. I was glad I was going to heaven. I was very zealous, you know, outspoken, somebody that shared his faith all the time, wanted to change the world. And I got married after my first semester of seminary. And then five months later, I came home one day, five months into marriage, towards the end of my second semester, my wife had been struggling. Marriage and the transition to seminary was more difficult for her. I came home one day and she said, I don't love you, and I don't think I want to be married, and I will never be in the ministry.

I want to go home. And in that moment, what happened was my strength and my pride and my self-sufficiency, my independence, my arrogance was all exposed and broken. And I just began to realize that the truth is I'm religious, but I'm not spiritual.

I'm working for God, but not with him. And in my brokenness, there came some humility, and God began to do something that is much more spiritual and internal and life-changing in my life. And, you know, I don't know who said this, but years ago, I heard often humility comes on the backside of humiliation. It's not until we suffer, it's not until we go through difficulty that we begin to see our need for God, and that's a real problem in American culture. We pride ourselves in being self-made and pulling up our bootstraps, but that mentality really works against your spiritual life.

It creates pride, like you were talking about earlier. I find this beautiful that at that moment, God brings Dr. Bennett. That's exactly right. You know, in that moment, we decided that the only reasonable thing to do is drop out of seminary. We actually did move back to home, we're from Wilmington, so that we could really focus on rebuilding our marriage. And at that same moment, I was introduced to a man, his name was Dr. Bennett, retired pastor. He was an interim pastor in Wilmington at the time, and I went and met with him and just asked him for help. And literally, it was like he adopted me as his son. I mean, just took me under his wing, and for the next 20 years, he fathered me and did things that I had never experienced. I grew up in a broken home and really didn't have a father figure that way, and Dr. Bennett began to play that role, and it healed my soul, and he began teaching me how to spend time with God and allow God to transform me from the inside out, rather than striving to perform for God.

And that's what I think. So many Christians today are discouraged, and if they were really honest, they are not very hopeful that change is possible. They're not hopeful that God is close. They're not certain that God's paying attention or he's concerned about what's going on in their life. And primarily, that's because they've spent their life trying to perform, thinking that performance is the key to being close to Jesus.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the way religion works. That's the way religion works. And it's a burden.

No, it is. It is a burden. You've been patiently listening to this conversation. I'm curious your thoughts. I've truly enjoyed it. I've just been saying amen to everything that Alan has had to say. I just appreciate him just sharing his testimony and just where the Lord has taught him in these areas. And, you know, just say praise the Lord. Absolutely. And, you know, God bless you, brother.

Thank you. Yeah, it's amazing the amount of humiliation God seems to be willing to put me through. I love that. Yeah, humility does come on the other side of humiliation.

If you haven't experienced that, you know, you might try it this Christmas. All right. So we're going to be back with so much more Kingdom Pursuits. Burt Jones and Pastor Alan Holmes, their stuff, again, the book and Capital Commission at KingdomPursuits.com. Welcome back to Kingdom Pursuits, where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the Kingdom. And I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have today.

Just a delightful time with Burt Jones with the Capital Commission and Pastor Alan Holmes, pastor of Definition Church and the author of Redefine the Simple Path to a Hope-Filled Life. So I'm curious since, you know, I didn't know we were going to talk about humiliation, but I love that discussion. Burt, have you been humiliated? I imagine we've all been humiliated at some point, but, you know, you definitely learn a lot, you know, through life experiences.

And I told you I've worn a number of hats, and certainly I have. You know, early on in my professional realm as a dentist, I've had some severe health issues that really, really humiliated me in the sense of just really pointing out my utter dependence on the Lord. And I think that was very shaping in my own life and my own spiritual growth. I, too, serve in a pastoral ministry.

Actually, we have a plurality of elders at our church that share the pastoral ministry, so I'm a non-vocational pastor in that sense. And I think, you know, just shepherding people and being... Right, and I, you know... ...the flights of others, you know, there's that aspect as well, and certainly as a legislator. You're going to be humiliated as a legislator, and there's a lot to learn there. You've got, I tell the legislators there now, I said, you've got two types of people here, and there's one type that's telling you that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread because they want something from you.

They want your vote. And then there's another group that is very much against what you're doing, and they'll tell you that you're lower in dirt, and it's just kind of important to keep your life between the rails. And I don't know, without faith in the one true God and the Lord Jesus Christ, how people really do that.

And there are humiliating experiences there, that's for sure. If you think about it, I find it so beautiful, or really, really do, that God allowed Dr. Bennett to come into Alan's life for such a time as this. And so obviously, as your role there as a chaplain for these other people, obviously you're living out, right, 2 Corinthians, you know, chapter 1 of God of all comfort, right, you're comforting these poor guys in the ways that you were comforted by God while you were serving, because I imagine that discouragement would be an understatement there in what they're facing. They came in with an ideal of, man, we're going to really change the world. And boy, I mean, what is that big discouragement that slaps them right in the face right after they get into office? Yeah, I think there are a lot of realizations. You know, people go, and I tell people, you know, be careful what you promise people that you're going to do, because politics really is a team sport, and you're not going to do anything by yourself.

You better be able to play well with others and work with others. And so there are so many things that I think we have an opportunity to learn about. You know, there's a fine line between being attentive to the people that sent you there to serve and just being a people pleaser. And ultimately, you know, the Bible is very clear that God has ordained human government, that government officials are ministers of God. We read about that in Romans 13. And I think first and foremost, we serve God. We serve an audience of one, and in serving God and serving him well, we're going to do the right things for our citizens. We're going to do the right things for our state and our nation and our communities.

And so with that perspective, you know, I think we certainly pray for more people with that perspective to serve in government at all levels. That's a great idea. So, Alan, you know, again, as you're writing this, you're on this adventure with God, and he's sharing stuff with you, I'm curious. I love this question. What can you hardly wait for somebody to read in this book? In other words, man, I can hardly wait until they get to chapter whatever, or when they get to this, what would that be? You know, I think probably the first thing that comes to mind is just to read my story in the introduction, because, you know, I just shared a portion of it in the introduction. I share my whole life story, and it's really a story of redemption.

And, you know, I'm real transparent about how I grew up and who I became and some of the things that were issues in my life and how God, you know, transformed and redeemed all of that. And I think for so many people, they just need hope. You know, we are in the Advent season, the first Advent candle, the first week of Advent, we talk about hope, and I think so many people need hope. They need to know that God can heal their pain, that God can redeem their past, that God has a plan and a purpose for them moving into the future, that they can really walk with Him and be transformed by His grace. And so I think the thing that I'm most excited about, really, when they read it is just to get hope. And then the rest of the book basically explains, okay, what does this journey look like?

What are the steps that we take? Yeah, that hope word is like, I know a lot of people, they're stuck in an addiction. They think, I can't get out of that. I can remember in my own heart would have told you, I can never stay in love with anybody for any length. You know, this is not something I could imagine happening for 40 or 50 years, that this is going to get old, it's not going to work. There's no hope in that relationship because my parents were divorced, right? And so I saw it, I didn't see anybody could get to stay together.

How does that work? Right, and that was our story. So after that experience that I had 25 years ago, next week my wife and I will celebrate 25 years. And again, people hear that story and it gives them hope that if here's a guy in seminary who has a drop out of seminary, he's not sure his marriage will make it.

His wife has made it very clear she'll never be in ministry. And today we've been married 25 years and we've been pastoring the same church for 21 years. Yeah, she's a pastor's wife, folks, in a big church. Like, this ain't easy, I'm telling you.

That's amazing. It's just, it's such a beautiful thing. And so tell me, Burt, as the Capital Commission, you know, you've got this ministry, what's your passion?

What is it you're hoping people will find out? Well, I mean, our mission is really to share Christ in capital communities. That's what we do in Raleigh. You know, we are there to minister. It's like we said earlier, I mean, everybody else that's there, we've got some great, even Christian lobbying groups and all, but we are nonpolitical. We minister in a political environment, but we are not political. We are basically the one person there that is there to serve them and not ask for the answer.

When you say not political, you know, that's an interesting term, because everything you talk about, in order to be a good team player and all that, those are the good form of politics, right? It's like, you know, coming alongside the – Well, we do, we do. We certainly – You just don't have an affiliation, yeah, with the Republican or the Democratic Party.

Exactly. We are there, we are not there to be lobbying them politically. We are there to share the good news of Christ and to – you know, we have regular Bible studies. That's a big part of what we do. We want to immerse people that will participate, and we have certainly legislators, staff, lobbyists. You know, we minister to the capital community.

It's all of the above there. And so, you know, we want for that to happen. And so can you give us – could you give us some hope for Raleigh? Like, since you know these folks, what should we hope? They're going to make progress? I think our hope remains in the Lord.

You know, we just need to continue to pray for our leaders as we think about it in 1 Timothy 2, continue to pray for them, to pray that they come to a saving knowledge of Christ and that they will govern in a way that brings honor and glory to God. How cool. So we got one more segment coming up for Kingdom Pursuit. And oh, man, what a lineup we have today on the Truth Network. So stay tuned. We've got so much more Kingdom Pursuits coming up.

Well, how fun today on Kingdom Pursuits. We have Burt Jones with the Capital Commission and Pastor Alan Holmes. The author of Re-Defined. And this book is available on Amazon. Of course, you can go to KingdomBursuits.com and get it, get connected with the Capital Commission.

It's all there at Kingdom Pursuits. So we've talked a lot about the book, but we haven't talked about the title. So, you know, that's got to be a hard thing when you're trying to figure out, now I've written this, did the title come first or did the book come first?

Or how did they work? They kind of – the title came when I was preaching it. So I preached through the Sermon on the Mount a couple of years ago. And the idea is that Jesus came to redefine what it means to have a relationship with God. So again, in a culture that was very religious, Jesus wants to make it very clear it's about a relationship. And I was telling you, just explaining during the break, in fact, let me just say to Burt, Burt, if you'd like, I'd be happy to send a copy of the book or send you enough copies of the book to send all of our state legislators a copy.

That would be great. Because the thing that for me was a big issue, you know, a couple of years ago, we've got all the political stuff happening. We've got all the racial stuff happening.

We had Corona coming and all the tension around that. And, you know, we're trying to figure out what to do. And I think one of the challenges that the Christian community in America made is we began asking government and politicians to do what really only the church can do. Now, there's certainly a place, a role for government and politicians, and there is a clear role for the church, and they really complement one another. If the church does what God's called the church to do, it really empowers politicians to do and for government to work properly. When the church fails, there's no political solution.

There's no net that big. There's no way to fix what's happening in our culture. And I think Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, he sees all these issues. In fact, in the Sermon on the Mount, he's going to address all of the cultural hot topic issues of his day. But he begins in the Beatitudes by saying, if we don't get our hearts with God right, that's what the first four Beatitudes are about. And if we don't learn to relate to each other right, which are what the next four Beatitudes are about, there's no fixing it.

But when we do, then the very next thing Jesus says is, now that that's true, now that your relationship with God's healthy, your relationship with people are healthy, now that that's true, you are the salt and light of the world. And then he begins explaining how the kingdom impacts all of these cultural issues. And so really, that's what the book is about. So, Bert, your thoughts? Well, absolutely.

I couldn't agree more. And I appreciate the offer of the books, and I would be delighted to share them with our legislators. And as he said well, God has ordained human government. God has certainly ordained the church. And he's ordained the family, the institution of the family. And if everybody would kind of stay in their own lane and carry out their own role, I mean, the Bible is very specific about roles for these different institutions. And if things are working according to the Lord's plan, things are going to work well. But when we get out of balance and man wants to do things his own way, that's when we get into trouble.

Yeah, that's right. And I love the idea you had really about praying, because, I mean, there you go. I mean, obviously, we need to take care of our own families. We need to take our own roles in the church, what that may be. But then, you know, apart from obviously voting, which we don't even know where that goes, but we pray, right? You know what?

Exactly. One of the things that seems challenging when you just think about American culture in general is we want a pastor to fix it, a politician to fix it, the government. We want somebody else to fix it and to take responsibility for what God has called each of us in our home, in all these realms. He's called us to rule and to reign. You know, we're the children of God. We are supposed to be kings. We are supposed to establish the kingdom for the blessing of all people. But we've gotten to this place where, unfortunately, even the evangelical church in America is pursuing the American dream and hoping a politician will fix the problems.

Don't you like to know who Adam thought was going to fix the serpent problem? Exactly. It's like, somebody better do something or this might go really bad. Yeah, we just suffer from that same dilemma, like, man. And so what a neat time to really think about what a wonderful Christmas present, redefined. And you can hear Alan's heart and you can kind of get an idea of this. And clearly, you know, what a wonderful time to think about, you know, getting somebody you love on this. Because if we get our hearts right, man, there's so much more. And obviously, there's this hope.

And that's what Christmas is about. Right. So, wow. Bert, thank you so much for what you're doing up there. God bless you. We'll be praying.

Thank you again. Alan, his church is Definition Church in Greensboro. And his book is redefined.

It's all there at KingdomPursuits.com. And boy, are we thankful for you for listening today. And you're so blessed because that's what Encouraging Prayer is coming up next. We're going to be talking Hark! The Herald Angels Sing in just a minute. And then followed by Masculine Journey.

And then Nikita Koloff. It's time to man up. It all is coming at you here on the Truth Network. Stay tuned. Oh, and I'm going to be on the cure today at one. So, I'll look forward to being back with you at one o'clock today. Thanks for listening.