Kingdom Pursuits - Feelings Inside & Out

Nikita Koloff here, the devil's worst nightmare, with the Man Up Podcast, where we talk to real men who have real stories who realize it is time to man up. Your chosen Truth Network Podcast is starting in just a few seconds. Enjoy it, share it, but most of all, thank you for listening to the Truth Podcast Network.

This is the Truth Network. Kingdom Pursuits, where you hear from ordinary people instilled with an extraordinary passion. Together we explore the stories of men and women who take what they love and let God turn their passion into Kingdom Pursuits. Now, live from the Truth Booth, your host, Robbie Dilmore. I am so thrilled that you are with us here today on Kingdom Pursuits. I wanted to mention first, for those of you who just listened to Christian Kargai, and we had a bit of a problem with our Christian Kargai theater file that I put extra space in.

It's kind of tricky sometimes when you do these things. And so, I want to let you know that the podcast, if you wanted to hear the entire episode, it's there at ChristianKargai.com. It's already available, and you can go listen to that on demand whenever you want to. Later on, as will Kingdom Pursuits be, as we get into this show, as will all the episodes of Christian Kargai theater and Kingdom Pursuits be there. But today we are very excited with some amazing guests on Kingdom Pursuits, where God takes our passions and use it to build the kingdom. First up, we have Pastor Ron Smedley, and his mission recovery is his ministry. Christians who are addicted to drugs, welcome Ron. Good morning, Robbie. It's a pleasure to be with you on Kingdom Pursuits.

My beloved lives in North Carolina, so it's good to be with you today. Oh, really? Really. Well, good. Well, we're broadcasting in Raleigh right now.

WDRU. So, Pastor, there's some phenomenal statistics. I read at your website about how many—you know, Christians struggle with addictions in large numbers, don't we? Tragically, to be honest with you, Robbie, as a pastor, almost 40 years now, I started in kindergarten, and then a caseworker with the state of Texas, I don't see a lot of difference between people in the world and people in the church, because there are so many things out there that can get us addicted and hooked.

And even though we know Christ, we still live in a fallen world. And so the problem, in my opinion, Robbie, I think it's the most relevant need in our nation. It's of epic proportions, and not only with the addictions, but all the other collateral stuff, like the people that are affected negatively.

So every community and demographic is affected by it. I couldn't agree with you more, because Jesus came to give us life and give it abundantly, but if we won't tell the truth and say, oh, I got this addiction, I got this problem, I got—you know, just really humble ourselves and seek help, like your ministry, I mean, it means so much. And so I'm very excited to have you on today, as well as our other guest, Rosemary Pope. And Rosemary, you have sort of a tragic story—in fact, it's a very tragic story, I shouldn't say sort of, Rosemary—but God has used it in so many different ways. Maybe you can share with our listeners a little bit about your book. It's called Joy in Suffering, a memoir of a couple's pregnancy losses and how they found happiness. Hi, Robbie, thank you for having me on the show today.

Oh, I'm excited to have you. So yes, we've had several pregnancy losses. One was a stillborn, then another we were told in the middle of the pregnancy that our baby wasn't going to make it, and then a couple early miscarriages. But then we've also been blessed with four beautiful children that we're able to raise here on earth. And a couple years ago—I love the way you said that, that we get to raise here on earth. And I also have to tell you that, you know, one of the reasons I was really excited is that in my life, I lost—well, I didn't know I was losing it, because I had a brother that was older than me that was born, and I guess lived a few hours and then died, actually had my own name first.

They named him Robert Bruce Gilmore Jr. And then sadly, back in those days, the way they handled it led to trauma in my mother's life, where eventually she would try to take her own life as a result of all this. And so this topic, I know it's kind of like Ron's topic. There's a lot of people out there that are suffering, and it's nothing that you just leave alone, is it, Rosemary? I mean, it's something that you got to deal with. Right, right.

You can't pretend it didn't happen, and that's how it was handled back in the day. I know a lot of—it seems to be the older the woman I come across, the more—almost the more broken they feel, because they—back in those days, you didn't get to hold your baby, or even see your baby, if they had passed away like that. And so—and then they were just kind of left to deal with the pain and the grief on their own, and then just—and it's—I feel like it's still not a very open topic that people are willing to discuss, but it is thankfully becoming more of something people are willing to work through, and more and more resources are available. Yeah, and I, you know, I see the similarity, Ron, in your topics, right? Absolutely. We have a tagline, and this is what I want your listeners to understand. So many times we can be judgmental about people that use, but sometimes they've experienced things like trauma or loss or abuse, rape, and so they're self-medicating, trying to escape that pain and—or to seek euphoria, and then they get addicted and hooked. So in all my years, 22 years of dealing with addiction, I've never found one addict that doesn't have some kind of pain they're trying to avoid, and they have deep-rooted chains, so it's a vicious cycle.

Yeah, it's chains big time, right? But Isaiah 61 is there for us in both cases, Rosemary, where, you know, Jesus came to, you know, bind up the brokenhearted. And that's our mission statement.

We always say that Jesus said his mission was to preach good news to the hurting and helpless, and to bind up broken hearts, to set captives free, and so if that's Jesus's mission statement, that's definitely our mission statement at Mission Recovery. All right, so you can see, wow, wow, I'm very excited about this show. Again, we got joy and suffering. You were expecting me—see, I have these. So Rosemary's last name is Pope, right? And you knew this—so, Rosemary, would you be offended if I had some—it's because I do these things, it's called Robbie's Riddles, but I had, you know, before I have—I don't want to offend you if I use your last name in somewhat of a humorous way. Is that okay? Oh, I enjoy humor. Go ahead. Oh, good. Well, well, well, Rosemary. Speaking of Pope, right?

Yeah, speaking of addiction. It's speaking of Pope. So the Pope, you did not know this, but he was speaking to President Trump and Vice President Biden, and he says to both of them, you know, it was in a big crowd. They were out there in front of a bunch of people, and he said, you know, with a wave of my hand, I can make every person in this crowd go wild with joy. Oh.

Yeah. This joy will not be a momentary display like that of your followers, but go deep into their hearts, and for the rest of their lives, whenever they speak of this day, they will rejoice. And so Donald and Joe, they replied in unison, well, seriously doubt that with one wave of your hand there, your honor, or however they said that—eminence. Your eminence. There you go. Thank you. Show us. So the Pope slapped him.

You got the left and the right. So, you know, you didn't know this one either at the end, but you know, what the Pope said to the heretic who successfully lobbied to be buried on hallowed ground. What did he say, Rob? He said, what we have here is a failure to excommunicate. What we have here.

And I hope this one's worth the payoff. You know, Francis was not the first choice. You didn't know Pope Francis was not the first choice.

He was not the first choice? No, actually it was a lesser known man, Cardinal Hezenbacher, and he'd been a man of God in early age, a pacifist all his life. When W2 broke out, he was conscripted and forced to fight and became a bomber pilot. Bomber pilot. Right. A few months into the war, he was shot down but survived miraculously, losing one eye in the crash.

He continued his work with the church after leaving the war, stated his mission, wanting to help the less fortunate, he made his way to Africa and eventually found his way to Zimbabwe where they were called to duty with a diamond mine and had a cave in and after making a very dangerous journey in the mine. Oh, we got to leave that joke in mid-joke. I was worried about that. That's mid-joke?

Yeah, that's well... That's not even halfway there? We'll get there. We'll get there with so much more Ron Smedley and Rosemary Pope in Kingdom Pursuits, which I'm really very excited about the show.

Stay tuned. Welcome back to Kingdom Pursuits where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the kingdom. Today, we're so blessed to have with us Pastor Ron Smedley with Mission Recovery, Christians with Addictions, and what a wonderful discussion we're having with him as well as Rosemary Pope, who is the author of Joy in Suffering, a memoir of a couple's pregnancy losses and how they found happiness. And I should tell you that both are highlighted at kingdompursuits.com as well as the podcast will be there later today if you wanted to hear some of the story and you had to go somewhere. Nonetheless, Rosemary said she liked good humor, so we don't know if she's still liking it.

We're going to do what we can. So when we left our hero, Cardinal Hezenbacher, I'll just catch you up to date quickly, all right? He had been unfortunately a bomber pilot in World War II and then unfortunately... He lost an eye. He lost an eye. He lost an eye.

Yeah. And then he was in this mining accident, which horribly caused him to lose an arm, all right? And so decades later, and a new pope was to be elected. And so many in the cardinal of college, they believed that he was the perfect man for the position.

But sadly, many more believe that the parishioners just couldn't get behind a one-eyed, one-armed, flying papal people leader. That was cute, Robin. I didn't know if it was worth all that, but it was...

I enjoyed it anyway. So you knew at the end of that I actually would have a riddle and I do. And so for you to call in and win today at 866-348-7884, all you have to do is call in and tell us who was the first pope picked. Who was the first pope picked?

It was a hands-on deal. And he won it hands down. So there you go. 866-348-7884, 86634 Truth. All you have to tell us who was the first pope picked. And it was a hands-on deal and he won it hands down.

Just saying. 866-348-7884. Beth Ann, tell them what to win. Oh, Robbie, they're gonna get a copy of your last riddle along with... That'll be a read. And also maybe a book, a t-shirt, maybe joy and suffering from our author who's on the program right now. But it'll be something great, Robbie. Thank you.

All right, all you have to do is call us 866-348-7884. I would love to hear your answer. Or if you've got something that you wanna ask Pastor Smedley or Rosemary, you have some similar story. I'm sure they would love to interact with you. That's the beauty of live radio is you guys get to take part in it.

And we want you to take part of it because you guys are who the show's for, the people listening. So Rosemary, as it happened in your own story, can you share what happened in your marriage during that time between you and your husband when that was kind of... Was that it made it more difficult or did you grow closer together? So we were high school sweethearts and we married right out of high school.

And so I was only about 20 years old when we had our first loss. And so we were still... I mean, we still are today, but we were learning how to navigate life together as a married couple and just learning how to do life in general. And so this... We've always had really great mentors in our life, really good examples of what a married life should be like. And so we just... Everything we had been taught, we were like, well, even though we were married, we were like, everything we had been taught, we were like, well, even though we're mad and we're upset and super sad, the only thing we know to do is just apply what we've been taught.

And no, it wasn't always easy, but we just always put God first in our life. And... Sorry, someone just tried to call me. That's interesting. Isn't that weird when you're doing a phone interview?

It's just hard because it gets really distracting. Yes. So we just put God, decided to always put God first in our life. Just to kind of go into that question a little from a little different angle maybe. Okay. If somebody had this happen, what would you warn them? Say, you know, as you've, or maybe that you covered this in your book, what would you say to somebody who came to you and said, wow, you know, I'm really struggling from blaming my spouse for this loss or whatever they might be, you know, into, because I could imagine that that would happen?

Yes. The relationship between my husband and I, I had to, as the wife, as the mom who carried these babies, it definitely makes a stronger impression or impact on the wife, no matter how long they carry the baby, whether it was five weeks or five months or full term, it's definitely going to leave a stronger impression on the mom than it is the dad. And so naturally the mom is always going to, they're going to think about it almost all the time. It's something, it just doesn't leave their mind for, for a long time.

It's always there. And the dad or the husband, yes, he's going to think about it. Yes, he's going to grieve, but he's not necessarily going to be immersed in it all the time.

He's going to be able to compartmentalize and put it aside and do whatever. We're really good. Aren't we, Ron? I was thinking, as you're listening, that men, we have this, they call it a nothing box, I think, that we can go into and we start to hurt. We just, we go into this, like, what are you thinking about? Nothing? We call it fine, fine, F-I-N-E, feelings inside, but not expressed. I don't know how to express them. Right.

There you go. So as you listen to that discussion, Ron, because obviously you end up with the product of a lot of these hurt people. You know, what are some of the things that you would counsel somebody that would come with that kind of thought? Well, as I said, exactly, that's one of the reasons I appreciate you having me on, because a lot of people don't get it, that behind this is self-medication to try to escape pain. There are so many kinds of things out there other than God that we can turn to that don't help us deal with the pain. And then we end up getting hooked and we find ourselves in bondage.

And so the cycle just continues on. But I just, I'm sorry for Rosemary's story, but I've heard that hundreds of times. And we just want people to know that you can lean into Jesus.

He's the one who, first of all, like the woman, he said, neither do I condemn him. He also transforms our life. And then he puts us in a community and people so much need community because right now we're going through this pandemic and people are isolated.

And it's a horrible thing for people that are in pain. They don't need isolation. They need connection. And so the Lord not only gives us his transformative grace, but he also gives us a community who can pray for us when we need it, who can check on us and who can encourage us and show compassion in our walk. Yeah.

And that was what you said, Rosemary. You had mentors or people that you felt like were role models. Can you take us inside of that a little bit? Who were those people and how did they speak into that situation?

Yes. So I'd have to first say my parents, they are still married and they've actually dealt with similar losses as well. And so just being able to empathize with us from that angle was really nice. And then my husband's family, there's a couple of pastors in there. My father-in-law is an associate pastor and him and my mother-in-law, they have, they have actually been together since they were in eighth grade. And so, and they've always, I mean, they've had, you know, rocky times, but they've always strived to put God first and just lead by example.

And then, and also by actually teaching us these things. And then our pastor and some of the other elders at our church, they were just always there whenever we needed them. So were they like there at the hospital? Or were they there, did they come to your house?

Oh, they definitely, yes. They'd come to the hospital or sometimes to our house or, you know, their house. We'd go over there or just, you know, staying, staying late at church, maybe late at night, standing in the church parking lot, just having deep conversations.

And that, see, I don't want to discount that at all because, you know, I remember when I got my leg crushed, they had to take me by ambulance, long from Murphy, North Carolina to Winston-Salem, which was quite a ride. In the middle of the night, I got here like two or three in the morning and there were like 30 or 40 people from the church there waiting on us when we got there. And I can't tell you the time, you know, the nurse looked at me and said, wow, what church do you go to? And I said, well, I can't tell you the church do you go to. And I said, well, I go to Calvary Baptist Church.

She said, why, when one of you guys show up, you bring a crowd. And the witness of that, I've never forgotten it. You know, it's just one of those places that Jesus showed up for me in that minute that was just absolutely huge.

Like, I really felt like I was part of that community and part of something bigger than just, you know, facing this tragedy on my own. We always say church should first and foremost be a hospital for the hurting. And then we also say, especially related to my cause and all the other things that people struggle with, mental health, the stress, the pain, the church should be the greatest support group in and of itself. People shouldn't have to find anything outside of the world, excuse me, of the church in the world or in a bar, they should be able to find it in the church and it has the supportive community to help us. And Jesus saves our souls, that's done, but community helps us in our lives and our walks. Yeah, that's what, you know, Jesus said, you know, when I was sick, you didn't visit me. And when I was in prison, you know, where were you?

So just your very presence. I mean, this is a huge deal in lives when you get an opportunity to hear and have this opportunity. So we got a lot more Kingdom Pursuits coming up, Mission Recovery and Joy in Suffering, a memoir of a couple's losses.

It's all there at KingdomPursuits.com. But I can't believe nobody's called in, Beth Ann, with the first pope, 866-348-7884. Welcome back to Kingdom Pursuits, where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the kingdom. We are so honored to have with us Ron Smedley and Rosemary Pope. Ron is with Mission Recovery and Rosemary, her book, Joy in Suffering, a memoir of a couple's pregnancy losses and how they found happiness. And, you know, the ways to get connected with Ron's ministry and all, we'll find out more about that here shortly. But next up, well, one thing is we got all kinds of Riddlers, which I'm very excited to stay on the line. But first I got to talk to Amy Cabo with The Cure is calling in. Amy, you're on Kingdom Pursuits. Good morning.

Good morning. So good news, you guys got a Whopper show coming up at one o'clock today on The Cure. You guys have, can you say his name, Faust Ruggiero?

Yes, I think it's Faust Ruggiero, yes. And he's going to be speaking on how to improve ourselves, right? Right. It's going to help us to achieve a better understanding of our true self. Where we feel we may pass away, we can discover other's strength and find a different way, a better way. That is awesome.

And so people can call in and ask, so people can call in Amy and say, hey, doc, how can you fix me? All right. Well, thank you, Amy. God bless. I hope you have a great show coming on one o'clock Eastern.

It's called The Cure, and it's going to be right here on The Truth Network. Thanks. Okay. Moving back to our riddle, which we're very excited about, who was the first Pope? And we have Chuck calling. So Chuck, you're on Kingdom Pursuits. Good morning.

Hey. So who do you think Chuck was the first Pope? Pope John. Pope John. I like that.

I never thought about it. So tell me about Pope John. Well, I was an educated guest. I think there were several named John, so I figured I'd just take a chance.

Well, I'm going to work with you here, Chuck. I love that. I love that. There was John the apostle, and he, in his own way, and Jesus definitely laid hands on him. And so he was certainly called to be an apostle, and so it was a beautiful thing. I would go with John, the author of the book of John. Hey. So you're a winner as far as we're concerned, because there is no absolute right answer to this. But I do love that you called in.

So Chuck. Well, I'm surprised no Catholics called in. Well, I'm not— I love Catholics.

I do too. They're the only ones you usually see out there praying in front of the pregnancy care the abortion clinics. You're exactly right.

40 days for life. They're out there all the time. It's absolutely wonderful stuff. And actually, my producer Beth Ann is one of those that is faithful in that way. So Chuck, God bless. Thank you for calling in today, and you're a winner.

Well, thank you. There's a great place to reach out if you want to do volunteer work at the Women's Care Center, Gateway Women's Care Center. It's a pregnancy crisis center.

Oh, that's good to know. Where is it now? It's on Hillsboro Street. On Hillsboro Street.

In Clemens? Gateway Women's Care. Wonderful. Well, thank you for mentioning that, Chuck. God bless. I appreciate you calling in.

Thank you. All right, we have Scott Barton, who has a guest for us. Scott, are you still with us?

Yeah, I am, Robbie. Great show today. Oh, those are some wonderful guests.

I am excited to hear more on what they have. But who would you say was the first Pope, Scott? How about Peter? Yeah, I think that's what the Catholics would definitely say he was the original. They definitely, you know, he was a hands-on kind of guy when you think about Peter, right? He was.

He was. Well, thank you for being with us today, Scott. I appreciate you calling in. You're quite welcome, Robbie. Keep up the great work. Thank you. I appreciate you very much.

God bless. All right, so getting back to Ron and Rosemary. Ron, I'm kind of interested. How can people or, you know, your publicist was trying to get your ministry out there.

Is there a message that you're trying to get out to the church, or is there some way that people can connect with you? Yes, thank you for that, Robbie. And again, I'm honored that you had me on.

By the way, I forgot to tell you this. Here's a former car guy myself. Oh, okay.

In between being a pastor and a parole officer, I sold cars for a while. So anyway, that's just an aside. But yes, thank you for that. Our vision and our passion is to address this issue of all forms of addiction, tearing families apart, devastating the souls of our nation's souls dying every day. So we want to come along beside churches to help pastors because what the stats say, Robbie, is 80% of hurting, struggling people come to pastors first, and they don't always know how to help.

They don't always feel equipped to address these issues, addiction and the associated mental and emotional health behind it. So we want to come along beside them. And we have a website, we have a toolkit, a step-by-step toolkit for pastors. If they want to engage in this relevant ministry. Remember, I said 80% come to pastors, but 65% of most churches don't have any ministry that will provide support to these issues.

And so we also have a curriculum that we're excited about. It's a 52 week, 52 week free plug and play program as 30 minute videos, and downloadable worksheets and workbooks that any person in your church, pastors are so busy, they can't do it, but a person in their church and especially someone who's a family member of an addict or someone that really believes and is passionate about the call could take it. And they, in my experience, Robbie, I would say 30% of the people, both the individuals that are struggling and their family members would be participating. So we have tools like that on our website. And I don't want to confuse people, but we just got through recovery Sunday.

That was September the 27th. Every last Sunday in September annually, we set aside for a day to address this issue of recovery. But our main website is MR or Mr. Healing MRMrHealing.org. And we have resources and step-by-step toolkits for families and pastors if they want to really engage in making a difference in this relevant need.

That is awesome. You know, again, you know, it's just wonderful to know because I know so many churches don't have those resources. And so here's a resource for you, for your pastor. If you're listening, you know, you can go to Kingdom Pursuits and see the link there or say that one, the MRHealing.org.

It's kind of a double meaning. MRHealing. He is our ultimate healing. MRHealing.org or MR. That's mission recovery healing.

MRHealing.org. There you go. And so Rosemary, getting back to your book, we may have to finish the rest of this question in a minute, but I want to ask it. What's the one part of your book that you're just really, really excited for somebody that's in this position of suffering that you're really excited for the chapter for them to read? MSOh, I guess some of it would be the hard stuff to go through.

I just, I share details. They may not necessarily hear other places, but it's in a way that to let them know they're not alone in their feelings and in the things that they've gone through, but that they don't have to stay there, that they can, it is okay to smile again. They can choose joy, and ultimately that joy comes from God.

No, they won't be strong themselves, but if they lean into God, casting all their cares on Him, they can be strong through Christ. And yeah, I knew the break was going to come right in the middle of that. So we got more on joy and suffering, a memoir of one couple's pregnancy losses and mission recovery coming up. One more segment.

Stay tuned. Welcome back to Kingdom Pursuits, where we hear how God takes your passion and uses it to build the kingdom. Today we have with us Pastor Ron Smedley with Mission Recovery, and Rosemary Pope with her book Joy and Suffering, a memory of one couple's pregnancy losses.

Again, you can find out all this stuff at KingdomPursuits.com. So getting back to Rosemary. Rosemary, my mother's story, I think, you know, what I learned from it is the grief process is absolutely critical that you've got to go through it, and maybe this, you can relate to this. What happened was, because of the way they did it back then, she never really grieved over the loss of that baby, which she never even had a name for the baby, which later in life she named the baby Jeremiah, because, you know, when they took away his name and gave it to me, you know, that messed with her world even more, and she hadn't grieved with that baby. So when she attempted suicide, she had a wonderful, somebody like Ron that was working with her that was helping her go back into the pain of what was going on, and he took her back to when she actually attempted suicide, and she wrapped herself up in a fur coat and went in the back seat of a car where she was in the rest area for over a week after taking all this medication, and she nearly really died, but fortunately she didn't, and she lived to tell the story, and the pastor that was taking her through this asked her, Marjorie, why did you wrap yourself up in that fur coat? And all of a sudden it hit her that her grandmother, when her grandmother died, was wrapped in a fur coat in the casket. They used to put them in the living room, you know, where the people would be in state for a few days, and she couldn't bring herself to cry over her grandmother, and by that pastor taking her into that grief of that, why she wrapped herself up in that same coat over her grandmother, she was then able to grieve Jeremiah and actually get some healing. Was there something like that in your own healing?

Maybe a little bit. I know, kind of going back to the relationship with my husband, when we realized that because we're two, you know, he's a man, I'm a woman, and he's the father, I'm the mother, we just grieve differently because that's just the way we're wired. We understood each other more, and a lot of times at night he would go to bed and I would stay up, and I would go in our living room, turn on a lamp. This was about 10 years ago, and I'd put on a burnt CD of different songs that ministered to me during that time. I'd listen to those songs, I'd, you know, read my Bible or work on a Bible study, and a lot of times I would journal and I'd just cry and I'd just be curled up under a blanket. That would happen night after night after night, and it was those moments that I probably have felt the closest to God that I've ever felt was just spending those times with him like that, curled up, wrapped up like that. Wow, that's absolutely beautiful.

Ron, I'm sure you can relate. Absolutely. Again, we see transformation happen when people can have a revelation of the Father like the prodigal did and know that the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and near to those who are crushed in spirit. And as a pastor, I see this happen every day where I didn't as a parole officer because we're able to give them the transformation of the Lord Jesus Christ who wipes the slate clean, comes and lives in us, empowers us, and then again, gives us his word and gives us community to help us to have our back and help us encourage us when we need it.

You know, the Bible says, confess your faults to one another and be healed. It says to bear one another's burdens. And so again, that's why we're passionate about churches and pastors engaging in helping people deal with the pain because people are in pain. The pandemic has caused even more pain.

And so it's very vital that we engage and help people deal with the pain. Yeah. And you know, Rosemary, I was just thinking how beautiful is it that you've written this book to kind of help people walk through that grieving process and really comfort others with the comfort that you were comforted with, right? Second Corinthians chapter one.

Yes. I just, I had a, I've had a desire to share with other moms, other grieving moms, to know that, sorry, to know that they're not alone in their situation, that there are others who have felt the same way, but to just kind of show them a way to work through all that grief and point, point them to Jesus. And even more so for the victims of abortion, right?

Those moms. I have a big heart for any woman who finds herself in a situation that feels like abortion is their answer for whatever reason it might be. Even in my own personal story, my second baby, second baby. So I had already dealt with a stillborn at seven and a half months. And then here I am pregnant again. And I'm told in the middle of the pregnancy that this baby's not going to make it. And I was presented with the option to terminate that pregnancy. And I mean, I'm not going to lie. I heavily considered that because I had already dealt with the nightmare and here I am in the middle of it again. And I just wanted it to be over with.

I wanted a baby that I could raise. Darrell Bock Wow. So the book is Joy in Suffering, a Memoir of a Couple's Pregnancy Losses. Again, Ron's ministry, I like that, mrhealing.org, right?

You can go there or go to the Kingdom Pursuits and look up both of them. There's wonderful stuff. But man, I'm so glad you're listening to Truth Network.

You've got so much coming at you. Encouraging Prayer with James Banks, a really, really good episode coming up, followed by Masculine Journey, right? Starts here now at 12 o'clock and then Nikita Kolov. Wow, we get to man up. Followed by The Cure at 1. Oh, we're loaded for bear on the Truth Network. Stay tuned. This is the Truth Network.