John U Bacon, New York Times Bestselling Author

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Well, good to have you here on the line, man. You know all of the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs of Michigan football. I guess what are your initial thoughts after what we saw last night?

It seems like you might have another book in front of you. Yeah, I don't know if Alabama's Alabama. I know it's not the best Alabama team that Saban has produced. They had a narrow, of course, scrape against Auburn loss at the Texas, but it's still the SEC and they're still the SEC champs. And Michigan has not beaten a team like that in a couple decades. So that, for Michigan, was a seminal victory to say the least. It was a sloppy game in some ways on both sides. Plenty of mistakes. But a lot of great plays and attention was constant. I think for Michigan fans, it was downright cathartic. I mean, it's been quite some time.

I mean, we saw Woodson on the field the last time they walked away with a championship. He's not a kid, is he? No, he's sitting around. I think he's doing insurance commercials right now.

Right, Nissan ads and all that. You got it. All of that. John U. Bacon is here with us.

The Gerald Sport Reshow, New York Times bestselling author. When you think about this season and having Harbaugh suspended, self-imposed at the beginning of the year and then being suspended at the end of the year, would this not be the cherry on top if he is to move on? There's no question. And if he did move on, I don't know even how upset Michigan fans would be insofar as they took over a program that was 5-7, that was this all three. They went into the tank again in 2020 during the COVID year at 2-4. Brought them back from that again with three straight Big Ten titles. I don't think Michigan fans would regret him a whole lot if he did go. And if he does go, I mean, look, one brother is a Super Bowl champion.

One brother is a national NCAA champion, of course. And at that point, it's hard to argue about it. However, it's hard to say if that makes it more or less likely for him to leave. It really boils down more to what Michigan does than what the NFL or the NCAA does. So if Michigan can work it out, then Harbaugh will stay, I believe.

John, you're baking to see it with us, CBS Sports Radio. So you're saying, and this is what we hear, it's almost a foregone conclusion, especially after his flirtations over the past few years, that he's going to exit Michigan win or lose. You think it just comes down to whatever dollar amount that they decide to throw at him out in Michigan?

I do not. I think they will throw the dollars, probably more dollars than the NFL will throw, even though the Spanos family with the LA Chargers is the most likely, and they've got deep pockets, certainly. What Harbaugh has always said, and he's looking at his history, it backs it up. He just wants to be wanted. In 2010, when he was about to leave Stanford for either the 49ers or Michigan, Michigan gave him a half-closed shoulder under the previous AD, Dave Brandon. All the 49ers were mailing a box of swag for his kids, all appropriately sized for all three kids at the time, and that swayed him. In 2014, when he was debating between the Bears and the Jets and the Oakland Raiders, he went to Michigan for less money because Jim Hackett, then the AD, gave him the full bear hug. So what happens this time around is whoever shows them the love, not the money, I swear to God, if they show them the love, President Santa Ono at Michigan certainly has. The athletic director, Ward Manuel, and Jim Harbaugh do not get along.

That's a factor, versus whatever the Spanos family does. So Michigan's got, we're going to have to tie them up if they want to, and we'll see if they do. But if not, I swear to God, it's not the number.

The number is going to be crazy no matter what. It's the love, and that sounds corny, but you watch. John U. Bacon is joining us. He's the author of Overtime, Jim Harbaugh, and the Michigan Wolverines at the Crossroads of College Football. We have heard so much about Coach Harbaugh over the years. For every stop that you just mentioned, there's always conversations about, oh, he wanted more power, he wanted more influence. Why do you feel that those lines have been crossed? In terms of lines being crossed at Michigan, you mean? What lines being crossed with is the perception that he wants the power and the money.

He doesn't get it, he's out. Yeah, he wants the power more than the money, I think. In the San Francisco Caves, of course, he and Bauke, the GM president, did not get along. That's a factor there. So Michigan, of course, has been going very well for the most part with Jim Hackett, the previous AD. It was going well with Ward Manuel for a while, it is not now. So, look, I mean, any top 10 coach, whether it's Nick Saban or Kirby or name them, are going to be difficult on some levels.

I don't think too many presidents stand up to them, certainly not ADs. And, look, who's harder to replace? An athletic director or a top 10 coach who happens to have a perfect 1,000 on the academic progress report.

That should be a no-brainer from Michigan's point of view if it comes down to that. But almost every top 10 coach is going to be demanding on some level, I'm sure Harbaugh is. And so is Bauche, I'm back on, and so is Bear Bryant, and so is Woody Hayes.

It's kind of the territory you're in. One good line from the previous athletic director at Michigan, Dave Brannon, he said, If all your eggs are in one basket, you better watch that basket very carefully. In this case, the eggs are in the football basket. Yes, Michigan has won national titles in basketball and hockey and gymnastics and softball and you name it, but football pays for everything, just about. So if your football coach is winning and you're graduating your players, my advice would be to do everything you can to keep them. And I'm not sure Michigan will.

John U. Bacon is here with us, the JR Sportbreeze Show on CBS Sports Radio. We had mentioned the program winning its last national championship in 1997. And we certainly know about the issues that have been over Harbaugh, the suspensions this past season.

And I can go online and we know there's a lot of people who just spout off at the mouth and just say, ah, a bunch of cheaters. And the players are the ones, the students are the ones out there on the field. But do you feel that months from now, years from now, the NCAA will say, oh, well, y'all did this wrong or that there'll be fan bases with, oh, Michigan cheated their way through this or he shouldn't have been there?

What are your thoughts there? Well, I think you're not wrong. That I think that no matter what the NCAA comes up with at this stage, and really, we have no idea what.

It must be said, I've not seen their materials, of course, their research, what they've found. And I think, JR, you're an experienced sports expert. You dare say not make a prediction as to what the NCAA might do in a given situation.

So who knows? But certainly the reputational damage is already there. And I think no matter what Michigan does, there'll be a large portion of the college football fan base out there. Certainly Michigan's rivals at Ohio State, Michigan State are named places like that, other places will say, you know, the cheaters, no matter what happens next, whether it turns out to be jaywalking or embezzlement, it's not quite clear where this sin falls on the scale.

So that damage has probably already been done. But I will say, I mean, a guy like Paul Feinbaum, who is a friend of mine and does a great job in the SEC network. He is obviously an SEC backer, not a Harbaugh liker, not a Michigan liker, I would say, but really not a Harbaugh liker, has said that, look, I mean, whatever else has happened with the sign gate, whatever is discovered, the last six, seven games, everyone knows that has not been a factor. And they're still beating for the top 20 teams in the country.

So I think each time they win a game like last night's game against Alabama, the case that this sign stealing has been such a huge advantage, starts getting diminished. This is a very good team and they're playing well. John, you bacon here with us on CBS Sports Radio when they get out on that field on Monday night. And I hope the game doesn't end past my bedtime.

That's first of all, John. You and me both, brother, you and me both, trust me on that one. That Sugar Bowl last night, man, I'm like, on the East Coast, I'm like, it's one o'clock in the morning, can you give me a break here?

At least I saw the first one in California. What do you think from a football fan's perspective, someone who knows all the ins and outs of Michigan football, what should we look forward to on Monday night? Well, I'm guessing more of the same of what you just saw minus a lot of mistakes, mainly on special teams. Michigan did not play a perfect game by any means. But enough great plays and enough great defense where five linemen all recorded sacks in the first half against a very good Alabama team. You've got to believe with PNX, of course, one of the best quarterbacks, if not the best in the country, Michigan's got to send a rush in him hard. That you're going to see, they're going to be aggressive, plenty of blitzes, and crucially, J.J. McCarthy, Michigan's quarterback, seems now for the first time in a month and a half, 100% healthy and can run.

And that running threat is essential for Michigan to succeed. So those two things you're going to see plenty more of next time around. But I got to tell you, that Washington team I saw last night, and like you, JR, I'm there trying to keep myself awake at one o'clock in the morning, that's a damn good team too. So I think so far, this has been, in its last year of the 14th playoff, probably the best playoff so far.

Certainly the first two games were. So I think if you can stay awake next week, it should be a hell of a show. Let me ask you this, John.

You're the New York Times best-selling author. What is the ideal story over these next, I don't know, not just next week, but two months for Michigan football? Wow, I haven't gotten that one.

Good question. Well, clearly a Michigan victory would go a long way. And it's been 25 years since their last one, and before that it was 50 years.

So how about that for two in the last 75? So obviously that would be huge. That would also quell some of the critics that, okay, this is a serious team and sign stealing only was somewhat of a factor. Then, of course, Michigan ties up Jim Harbaugh for the future.

He's now 60 years old, just turned. And if they get him for the next five or so years, you probably have him for the rest of his career. So that would be the best scenario. And J.J. McCarthy does not jump at the NFL with $314 million available, probably in NIL money for him, he might say. And crucially, three years ago, people talk about, of course, Conor Stallions, the sign stealing whiz, I guess. But the real thing was three years ago when Harbaugh was two and four and was given a do-or-die contract at half the income from Michigan, he swapped out six of his 10 assistant coaches. And that is a big boy bet, and if you're lucky, it works in two or three years, but he didn't have two or three years. So it was crucial that it worked right away, and it did, three straight Big Ten titles.

The next step is how many of those coaches could he keep on his staff? So if you want to extend his wish list, that's a long one, and they're not going to get all of it. But that's what it would look like. Yeah, it seems like if they lost in half of what you just said, does it go into the toilet? Yeah, probably.

It's a possibility. And you talk about the success here of Harbaugh getting this far to the national championship. He did have his pay reduced, he did have to, quote-unquote, have it built back up. And if it's my understanding, he's made $10 million this season, and a lot of it's been added in incentives, no? JR, you've done your homework, well done, I hope your listeners appreciate it.

It's my job to follow this stuff, but you're following the whole country, so that's very impressive. Yeah, his pay was cut in half with, however, as you point out, enough incentives in there that he can make all the money back if they happen to win Big Ten titles and go to the playoffs. Well, they did.

And I don't know if anyone was expecting that. Certainly not three years in a row, beating Ohio State, getting to the college football playoffs, finally winning one of those games this year. So he's still making about what he would have made before, but he had to earn it in terms of incentives. And as one of his friends joked to me, when they were trying to cut his pay, that took about a weekend to change that contract.

We're trying to put it back to what it was, it's taken a year and a half. And that's where Michigan needs to pick up the slack and show Jim the love. Oh, yeah, well, we'll find out what takes place on Monday night. John, I appreciate you taking the time to hop on. Where can people follow you and then also pick up your book?

Sounds great, man. JohnUBacon at Twitter. A lot of fun on there, of course. LetThemLeadByBacon.com is the podcast. I just had a former Michigan quarterback on there, John Wengler, talking about his Rose Bowl victory as Bo. And the book is LetThemLead Unexpected Lessons in Leadership from America's Worst High School Hockey Team in JR.

I was the coach of that team, so check that one out. I love it. Thank you so much, John. Look forward to chatting it up with you soon, OK? Happy New Year. Anytime, my friend. Great stuff.