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Ray Comfort (Hope in Christ) Rick Hess (Education Reform)

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July 6, 2021 4:30 am

Ray Comfort (Hope in Christ) Rick Hess (Education Reform)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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July 6, 2021 4:30 am

If being rich and famous makes for a great life, why is there so much depression and suicide among celebrities? And how do you bring the hope of Jesus Christ to someone struggling with suicidal thoughts? Ray Comfort, founder and CEO of Living Waters, joins me to talk about it and his book, "The Final Curtain: Fame, Fortune and Futile Lives." Plus: Rick Hess, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, discusses his book, "Letters to a Young Education Reformer." That and more on Tuesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY


This Janet Mefford today podcast is brought to you in part by Bible league international. We want to send 1500 Bibles to Africa through Bible leaves open the floodgates Bibles for Africa campaign. Five dollars sends one Bible call now 800 yes word 800 yes word is our confidence is in Christ alone, I saw you know pop music or pop culture life must be really great.

You're rich and famous and people love you and you have a huge social media presence get covered in all the hipster magazines, but we know the opposite. Also can be true.

Consider Kate Spade or Robin Williams, who both committed suicide stars who have died of drug overdoses like Michael Jackson or Prince and there are countless others who admit to struggling with depression or anxiety, and certainly the famous are the only ones to suffer in this way, but all these cases point to the great need. This world has for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because Hebrews 927 reminds us it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. So were to talk about it today with Ray comfort Ray is founder and CEO of living Waters and best-selling author and cohost with actor Kirk Cameron of the award-winning TV program the way the master and executive producer of movies like audacity and 180. His latest books actually two books under one cover. This is kinda clever. It's called the final curtain same fortune and feudal lives along with from the ledge and riot so great to welcome you back.

How are you one holy noted two people can read that book one like a husband and wife to each side of the table and one read upside Monday at one Villa I know I know fellowship and I know I was thinking that you could really have two people at the table and one could read one and one could read the other simultaneously examine the issue of depression and suicide among the famous I know a lot of people talk about this, but this is an interesting subject for you to tackle on a career minded triad of public try to get me particular public and for that book and no one would pick it up in it because suicide is particular in America. The moment of depressing subject of got an epidemic of suicide 45,000 people taking the line every year, 45 pound net stadium full of people plus half a million ending up in hospital in the hospital because they have attempted suicide and so that the epidemic, but people who had a loved one commits suicide don't want come terrible because it's such a rule painful subject. And people have never had someone commit suicide uninterested got nothing much to do with them but has because with Christians and we care about other people and that should grievous that people actually taking their own lives, so what I decided to do was look closely at liberty suicide because that tell of the subject up a little bit if I may say that tragedy though it is the liberty of the parental commit suicide, everything you do is fascinating to the average person what to eat what they wear what they like what I don't want I don't like, etc. I want to drive to what who the gum with and so the philosophies about life and death. Fascinating to us. So that's why think we've included so many of the celebrities that suffer from the same things the average person.right well like I said at the outset, a lot of people believe that you have it made. If you're a big star and you're rich and famous then everything must be okay why you think it is that we see so many cases of suicide among famous people in depression and anxiety, because from a human standpoint. I'm sure a lot of people believe will why does anybody who has all she has her all he has feel depressed in the first place. Well important to realize that change and I have with the mainstream secular society. They say anyone who is to pray, suffer from mental disease is very common to say that it's only happened in the last 30 or so years.

Psychology didn't call depression a disease or mental disease until 30 years ago they did. Once they labeled open the door to pharmaceutical products which generate billions of dollars, so the incentive the vent. I believe life is utterly depressing for the average person to think about it we will go to daily problems, dying the eye. Headaches then run off whatever just annoying thinking of the dog throwing up. Did good the company to build broken down life painful enough as it is, but woke up with fear of cancer, which is enough because so many cancers that the county BBQ it in the queue is sometimes as bad as the disease and then is coming on top of that is a horrible subject to talk about obtain out of 10 die in the Bible in the book of Hebrews 215.

Every human being only a lifetime is halted by the fear of death. So if you're a Christian, you got something control if he is on the night when I pass through date when the big moment in my life, comes in my path into eternity. I can control my fears through faith and that kind of sounds weak to some people. But if the analogy is used is standing on the edge of a plane you got no parachute on its horrific but if you go to parachute on, you can control your field by the amount of faith you have in that parachute. If you totally trust the parachute jump no fear but if you don't trust the parachute. You can have a lot of fear and so when we pass through death. As Christians we know as much as we trust God within to be free from the peril of death, but a non-Christian nothing to control the fee is and so that told me daily and that is what was look that closely in the book that the celebrities that get depressed or only depressed because life is depressing and so good that you've got a mental disease like the 350 million other people around the world suffer from depression and that adds to the depression of a celebrity coming think about it.

If you are well known in the tabloid foliar mall and then you diagnosed with mental disease that can be watching you to see what you do next, crazy because you got a mental disease not a mental disease you're just a thinking person think about life and life is depressing and we have the answer in the gospel and that's why Christians need to step up to the plate with God the arms of these people.

The millions of live a life of futility tormented by the fear of death swell and were living in a society as you well know Ray that he increasingly believes in a Darwinian evolution, perspectives, and is increasingly saying don't really know if there's a God I'm kind of agnostic about it. Or maybe I am a full-blown atheist when you willingly take God out of the picture. You may feel morally free to do whatever you want but you end up paying the price with hopelessness, don't you exactly right.

You stand on your own auction house you leave yourself without hope, and we've got a generation that is being linked without hope you know atheism is a form of intellectual insanity. It really say that the willful insanity to believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created, everything is crazy.

Nothing can't create anything when I challenge people and say so you're an atheist you really do believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything I got real quiet because I haven't felt very deeply about what they believe all labeled hold a phone about of the fact that I can now get on the thin fornication, lying, stealing, adultery, pornography, whatever without qualms of conscience.

If you get rid of God you can feel your conscience and get rid of it.

I haven't thought about what they really believe them when atheist not seen the many times backslide and say well I don't believe nothing created and it was just something that will it see if we can figure out why you don't want to be the God of the Bible that something, and you find out the end, the issue is not intellectually small, so let's write exactly that and that's what you said for quite a while and I agree with you completely that it is a moral problem that ultimately a lot of these atheists have with God. I don't want to bow the knee. That's really what it is yet rebellion me and neither will they come to light and the thing is night going to fight you tooth and nail. When it comes to the gospel because of the fact that everything we hold dear to him is being threatened.

What we have in Christianity as a huge wit blanket is back and said and yet it's not know God just says you can have your think but just state within the rules of what your father gives your conferences down the right side of the road and don't get drunk when you drive okay rule but if you don't obey the rules you gonna suffer consequences with got a generation the suffering terrible consequences because the not obeying the rules this trend.

Disease of sexually transmitted diseases this guilt.

This hopelessness leads many to suicide. And so when the gospel comes the miracle of the God changes the hot so we love righteousness, a miracle for some loving sinners, we care about right and wrong. We want to obey the rules because God commended his love toward us in Christ dying for us a way filled with gratitude so we have the greatest news. This generation ever hope to hear and Janet to say this YouTube channel has got over 62 million views. We have blown away that finally we been able to make inroads into the world through this medium of YouTube, so we actually encouraged. That is really encouraging to see there is a dark and dying world out there that needs to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ray comfort is with me the name of the book. One of them at least. The final curtain same fortune is utilized to come back on Janet Mefford today. This is Janet Mefford for Bible league international engaging the world with God's word for more than 80 years, believers in Africa are hungry to read their very own Bibles hear from Pastor Jeremiah in Zimbabwe. The church is clean very fast in the north part of the country where it's on the speaking people and speaking people. And then you know we find that is a movement of the student.

The way that hunger is very much basically if you can imagine 10 Christians right now in many places in Africa. On average, nine have no access to the Bible hears Lillian in Mozambique Berlin. Please check just in the house because of him. Up until they cut a vote of 100 people under custom letter Bible was the pasta but the elves had never seen a Bible and uses motivation once more to do more to reach as many people as we can know where going to go there and just take the letter through Bible studies and resources that introduce people to Jesus Christ.

I believe is faithfully discipling new believers in Kenya, Ghana, Ethiopia and many other African countries hears an evangelist named Joseph in South Africa even is about 63 is also tri-meltdown and she tried 60 she never had a Bible.

So much for feeding just to see people like dressing when the Bibles you can be the answer to a Bible disbeliever praying for God's word through open the floodgates Bibles for Africa. Five dollars sends one Bible $50 sends 10 and your gift right now of any size will help us reach our goal to send 1500 Bibles to Africa.

Call 800 yes word 800 YDS WORD or there's a Bible league banner to seen people being changed by reading the Scripture giving a Bible to somebody's greatest gift you can give somebody listening to you today Ray comfort is joining his book.

The final curtain same fortune and the lives and it's actually two and one. If you turn the cover over you'll find another book from the ledge a conversation with comfort. It really is the case that you're seeing more and more suicides and it is very baffling to a lot of people. Why would anybody want to kill themselves.

You don't rate. Another aspect of this is we see our real movements to denigrate life.

We see this in the abortion movement and increasingly were seen this in the end-of-life discussions about death with dignity so-called in euthanasia work in a culture that devalues life turnaround and suddenly say Robin Williams suicide was a tragedy when on the other hand, they promote people killing themselves who want to have physician-assisted suicide. It's just completely inconsistent and even when why don't want to commit the whole world unified Daytona Beach and put them out to see what little yes right right makes him flip and do it if they wanted the inconsistency of this world and you know the great encouragement to me is the oldies issues have one common denominator. You've got a father they want the greatest sin of America would say that abortion is homosexuality of adultery. Whatever this one, then that's prevalent for multiple reasons issue from and that's the one that God saw fit to address in the first two of the 10 commandment the issue of idolatry when you created God in your own image, then you can do what you want because he doesn't have a moral dictate and if you study thinking will bore Hitler was nigh… He more than an atheist.

He believe in God but was a God of his own imagination, but hated the Jews and Jesus wasn't Jewish he was an area in the might of his own 12 Commandments in 100,000 copies of his own Bible printed so idolatry gives license to to have your own moral standards, which can often include murder and killing of children in the world and what we need to do is bring the fear of the Lord back to a nation is a fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom through the fear of the Lord meant apart from evil and many of, popular preachers and pulpits are more like motivational speakers, they should be plumbers or electricians gently man of Sons of thunder, preaching righteousness in the great congregation we need to get back to that proclaiming the tandem, letting the fear of God fill a congregation of the founders and lighting all and for them to go and straighten address men's consciences as Jesus did in the thinking book the one the upside down smaller one on the other side called the lineage is an interesting scenario because it's always holding me what would I say to someone that was on the ledge of a building in a five stories up and I had a talk me down in a lot when I say how what I say in my word could cause him to kill himself. So I thought about it and created this novel where I come up to a guy who sitting on the go gate Bridge in the fall of anything to kill himself and begin talking with him and is very cynical very hard and I share with them a paradigm shift and let me give you one you probably know what one is, but you think of this man was born blind gone to a bath and on the bottom and stood up and gave him his seat was that a good thing to do. Most people would say sure yes yes yeah she's been a bit if it's true? Yes it was Ashley a bad thing to do. The guy left his job because of it because he was the bus driver.

I knew it I knew you and me okay gotcha that will become legal paradigm shift for information causes us to change your mind something that was good suddenly becomes bad with extra information.

So I told the guy on the lineage and say I given that paradigm shift one like it and get information to change your mind.

If you'll just listen you think it's good for you to kill yourself going to show you how it is really really bad by giving information so the guy cynically says okay go and preach a little myth gone do it and after some time he changes his mind.

It's very fascinating, very interesting story so and has the gospel interwoven within it. So this book is for rough people who potentially could tighten lies in one of the curious things about suicide is the one sign that someone is about to commit suicide is that there were no sign yes in the summer. We love them no.

Today could be thinking of taking their own lives, so we need to share the gospel and be close to people and then share a house with let me know we care about them and talk about this issue as Christians because we have the answer psychology over the world has no reason for the people to be depressed that on what causes depression and I don't know how to address other than with drugs that often the side effects can be worse than the original disease.

Sometimes they help but most times they don't so horribly own words what those drugs can do to people asking. I don't want you to give away your paradigm shift. People can read in the book. But if you have someone listening right now. Let's just say a celebrity who's depressed and maybe not a celebrity, but somebody who's depressed to says you don't know my life the right because my life really doesn't matter. I've lost so much and I contribute so little to the world and I think everybody and mostly I would be better off if I work here anymore. How would you immediately address that particular person if you only had a few minutes, not that want to ride her million dollars, and most people think about it from think on million dollars. But what about five money wanted your eyes will take it out. Plaintiff claims limitless law you want to see is good with the look and sale maybe okay.

Would you sell about 300 million never met anyone in their right mind this is Jan, so my $300 million. Anyone can do see the world know you want see a thing if you given up your eyes and really shows how precious our eyes off to us with you so familiar with the content we don't think twice about them, but arise merely the windows of the soul, so I'd say to this person you want you eyes are that valuable to you.

How much is your life with Jesus and want to profit a man to gain the whole world and loses his own solo loses his life and you don't realize about the life you willing to give up because you depressed and incredibly valuable to you this coming and you this is all I don't want to die and that is God given. He's placed eternity in our hearts when not like dogs. Okay, so locales were not based evolution will tell us when made in the image of God and is something in us says oh I don't want to die because they listen to that and later open your heart to what I'm going to tell you. And then I'd say do you think you're a good person. No doubt they would, because Scripture says most every memo proclaimed on goodness that will it go through the commandments and see how you do and I asked him. He lied to be told even stolen something if you use God's name in vain. They will look for the left and committed adultery in your heart and then I address them and say look, I'm not judging you.

You just said you were lying, thieving, blasphemous adulthood.

If God judges you, by the 10 Commandments on Judgment Day.

You gotta be innocent or guilty and conscience kicks in that God-given judge on the court, on the court with the mind is guilty and would you go to heaven or hell I said, I think it enough and Helen said will you don't want to take your life and on your sense because you gotta be out of the fine frying pan into the fire, you can make things worse not share with them the gospel that Christ died for us while we're still sinners and that God commended his love to us in that great value to God and not worthy of everlasting life of the great worth to God, to a point was made a place he's made a way for them to be forgiven and granted everlasting life as a free gift of God through repentance and faith in Jesus. That's what I'd share with someone and I just hope and pray that they would stay still is kind like Dana test to do any probing.

You teach when you go in there when he touches a little worn but he keeps probing because he wants to find what you teach the wrong things so we can replace them if we probe with them all along the Tinkham almonds in the can be painful, but it just because we don't want people to lose this whole somebody she says I'm so sad you know I'm really deep in Greece. There are a lot of people who are very depressed for actual reasons.

They lost a spouse of 50 years. Her son lost a child something like that.

They say, does God really care about me Ray is God really care about my grief and somehow the people that are occasionally really tough to get through to because they're so sad. What would you say to that person wanted a rational reason of them being sad and time of the Gila and we don't lose all of us again lose all our loved ones. If we don't go for sure that everything in this life we have to learn to hold a loose hand and some of God to look to God and say father you are the one that gave me that child died. I was just in charge of that child a set amount of time and you promised that as a Christian all things working together for my good, because I love you." According to purpose song to give you thanks because we'll get line stands will get rid season often felt when Daniel was in that lion's den. He could've cringed in the corner all night just terrified or recall going up to the back teeth and tied it with goods in a not because I couldn't touch him and and that's what were going to do when it comes with visceral gotta say I'm an accomplished thing you know I love my mom and dad a number of years ago I die and I learned to handle grief this way and it's maybe just the way I might be my my nature to do so, but I cried my eyes out and then I said, I'm not going down grief street and ever again. It's a dating I'm going to just move on with life and think positive thought about my parents because there are people out there that are going to hell and I go to put my energies into reaching out to the lost and as of total number of people that don't go down.

Grief Street. It really is a dating that can't help you want. You grieved and pulled your heart out and cried just move on with your life and get you hot and reaching out to the lost right down say people lose a loved one, then that's when on site is almost the same thing that God is the love of the soul and commended his love by Christ dying. He wants give everlasting life, and you will coming this note with is not that many more disease.

Decay – dandruff old dentists as well.

That's right. That's exactly right. And I like how you point out in the book about the living hope that we have in first Peter one talks about this Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So what gives us hope is the objective reality that Christ has saved us and that's something that goes beyond my life or yours and in in the book final curtain I address these. Each of these celebrities is that there was a life of taken the life I have an imaginary witnessing session with a light was Robin Williamson told the people that should've been happy with Robin Williams. He was brilliant he was rich until he got into trouble with his marriages and hit the pay element etc. I wanted to.

He was incredibly depressed, but I can identify with them because I went through a really black time… I'm back in the 1980s and often you know when people are depressed thinking, suicidal thoughts, a good night sleep to negatively help them change right what Ray comfort. We got a run, but the names about the final curtain same fortune into the lives always good to talk to Ray thank you so much.

Thank you for having me this Janet Mefford today podcast is brought to you in part by Bible league international. We want to send 1500 Bibles to Africa through Bible leaves open the floodgates Bibles for Africa campaign. Five dollars sends one Bible call now 800 yes word 800 yes word here's your show today from outcome based education see no child left behind in the coming standards. America's public schools had no shortage of attempts every how should we really think about the issue of education reform. Is it just a matter of continually implement a new programs or standards or scarce wisdom to be gleaned on how to think about education reform in the first place, or in a talk about that today with education policy analyst Rick Hass who is resident scholar and director of education policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute and will be talking about his book, letters to a Young education reformer and it's great to have you here Rick, thanks for being with us. Thanks so much, you know you have been in education reformer.

I know for a long time, using all kinds of trends come and go.

You're really though, trying to focus in this book on guiding people and how to think what you think that's pretty much a really important overall umbrella to this whole discussion of education reform that were made to not thinking about it the correct way.

The Greek word article. Want your passionate people, great people who want to make the world a better place.

One of the tricks with passion, though, is it to you so called up in the moment you make mistakes that the fact look on Robbie right and so on trying to get people who want to do good things for kids to be more measured and disciplined true, but the reality is that it was so much school improvement. Whether you do it whether you do or something called school turnaround or future valuation usually matters less than how well you do it and doing well. Thinking about how this affects the real lives of real kids in middle school, being careful about incentives. That means paying attention when things go so and sometimes reformers got so called up when I am trying to make the change that they have focused more on doing get them on how well it's done that's that's very important right because the real people involved in real parents and real kids in real teachers such an extent, when about the big are kind of reform versus the little are kind what sort of distinction is there between those two types sure you want work on Google reform.

No child left behind common core are you teacher evaluation systems generally come from a place where people are really trying to do good things for. But because they are so because they're usually driven out of Washington because they are so far move from real school families. What happens is you wind up with teacher evaluation system which labeled futures good or bad, simply on where the reading and math scores go up or down, leaving a mass course tell us something that we care about how kids are learning how teachers are doing, but common sense tells people that we want to be cautious about how much we put on a given number. But what happens when reform becomes big are is that common sense tends to fall out of the shuffle little all performances walk. We want school to be responsible for serving well. We want to make sure the curricula are coherent, and makes them want to make sure teachers are held accountable when the stuff is complicated stuff and we want to do it one step at a time with the ability to go back and make sure it's working really almost a matter of whether you try to fix the whole world in one giant big door sweep or whether you're going to take her stuff, step by step closer to schools and communities just energize my next question because when you're talking about big are reforming you name some of those big programs that have been implemented in many of them have failed or people are turned on them in time is big are reform flawed by definition simply because it is remote from the localized process.

Reformer, big are reform when we do it in foolish ways.

So walk a lot of space back in the 90s were doing school accountability because we knew that way too many kids were getting off the crack. We knew that we were not challenging our schools serve every kid and started to go common sense account ability systems in reading and math. They had the problem but because they were built state-by-state parents state legislators could push to try to improve them what happened when George W. Bush was elected in 2000 and went to Washington to try to improve, you know, make sure no child left behind was passed with no child left behind act of Congress which took these reasonable intuitions that school should try to talk to but we should want to know how kids are doing a bring it back to school should be accountable look there just what you know a terrible job you're after your and the blimp intuitions. This should we complicated past crazy mouse trap managed to correct himself yes to it's almost not a problem with the ideas themselves.

As with whether we do them good or bad words suture.

I have a really good friend who's a pub in a public school teacher for many years and she made the comment about no child left behind and she said it's as if we teachers didn't even matter. She said you not every kid is going to get a top score and she said, is that really the goal of what I'm trying to do in the classroom am I not supposed to work with each kid individually. They're not robots and somehow you know were made to feel as if in oral teaching to the task that these sorts of things that teachers are really frustrated about your right, I think there are certainly listeners. Wait a minute, I'm concerned about the flipside that some teachers are going to say well I can't help but when I think about this is what you just start teaching for pizza money back related. It was all that was frighteningly easy to find teachers who would say you know what those kids can't call based on the way they walk based on their family circumstances, great successes of the last quarter century school reform. We have changed their smell shameful when you hear a teacher say I can't teach those kids because of what their because of the family situation and winning that healthy victory. What we've got is I think we gone too far to wave your friend points to what we have now made it impossible for us to have an honest conversation or we say what teachers need to do their job well, but they can only do so much. There is also some responsibility that has to live with the student in the family and the question is how do we ask the teachers do their job well without turning them into scapegoats for students and families were struggling with other challenges. Yes, that is such a huge issue because it does count where the child lives. The family situation how much the parents are involved. What that aspect of things. How you reform the home because certainly the parents are just important as important to the educational process is the teachers when it comes down to it spot on it when folks are out of trouble kind of comfortable wealth or some type of book you are some of the doctor.

All the doctors you know he needs to lose some weight. I pick my son home and I keep beating him with their computers.

Every night we don't see my doctors about Dr. Rice will we say that I am not doing my part is apparent.

Honestly part of this is we have a calm uncomfortable is a country talking about parental responsibility. I don't know that I want legislatures doing anything to stricter you know you know stick their hand in the hall try to micromanage their but I think is community. I think doll we have grown uncomfortable.

You know what, there are some parents who are not kind of working with schools when they could get one video of the teacher they don't punish the student. They don't make sure their kids do their homework there not make sure their kids get to school on time and I think serious school form start not just by asking school to do better, but also by expecting and asking parents to do their share.

I think you're so spot on about that because if you don't have the parents willing to work with the teacher for the best interest of the child in the education of the child, then you can continually run into problems and and yell if you don't deal with the child at a young age. I cooperatively with the school system and you have increasing problems has the kid gets older.

All my mom's and get a backup the teacher if I don't do my homework.

So why should I work I work for me in the past and that's such a great point. I want to dive into some of this in more detail when we come back from this break. Rick Hess is joining us his letters to a Young education reform will be right back. Hi this is Janet my first deadline to sign up for your program. At the end of 2020. If so, I have good news special enrollment period is taking place now through August 15, meaning that if you're looking to enroll in the new healthcare program for 2021 you can do so without the need for a qualifying event more than 200,000 Americans trust liberty healthcare for their healthcare needs. Liberty healthcare is a nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry that offers affordable healthcare sharing programs starting as low as $199 per month.

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I pre-born partners with clinics in cities with the highest abortion rates in the country. Will you help pre-born save these precious lives. When a modern crisis sees her baby on ultrasound and here's the heartbeat she's 80% more likely to choose life and that's just the beginning of the story. I know that I was on my side for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help rescue five babies lives to donate, call 855402 Beatty that's 855-402-2229 where there's a pre-born banner to click Janet you're listening is joining us, resident scholar, director of education policy studies enterprise Institute and author of letters to a Young education former and were discussing some of these efforts that we've seen over the years to make public education better. To what extent is it at the teacher's fault of the parents fault of the students fall to the governments fault you've had lots of experience, Rick. Along these lines to ask you all of the reforms that have been initiated over the years.

Is there one that you think works the best or were we need more, we need to return to a certain system that has been successful in the past required element for my money probably formed traction.

Layout or school choice. Not that they already kind of magic solution are not always make the scores go up, but I think charter schools are think school choice program has been a powerful way to help families find schools that are a good fit for their child needs that help educators find schools that fit with their own style with pedagogy. Let them do the work. Bigger picture though for me.

I don't mean that as any kind of old school choice of the answer. I just think school choice to be more sticky than a lot of these spinning roof with thinning performer, go the bigger picture, though I think is what we've been doing school in for centuries in this country and our school while the core work of what they do is pretty timeless are trying to build character cultivates citizens to choose essential skills while those things are constant. The best way to do that for kids are changed over time as we develop new technologies is the labor pool who changed and I think one of the big challenges is we keep trying to make the schoolhouse from 1917 to serve all our kids will today and it turns out to be a challenging way to do the work that a little bit because that's intriguing to me when you talk about the schoolhouse of 1917.

What have been some of the holdovers in education that need to be updated that work better. Sure you keep in mind that a century ago, only about one American high school much better because three quarters of working it all worked in agriculture, manufacturing, so today we want to graduate all the markets were over 85% and we know the work in fields that require you no more sophisticated skills. So what we want schools to do a lot more. But when we look at him the way we teach. For instance, we have a teaching force which was built back in the era when college-educated women had few other avenues open to five future and we have a teaching force built for America when the average college graduate, was only going to have four or five jobs before they retired so to go out to campus and try to recruit 22-year-old young women to do the same job into the next 30 years was a perfectly sensible way to try to attract and keep great educators in the 1940s and 1950s, it's just that it turns out to be a terrible way to attract hard-working and talented. You know, new college graduates in 2017. This doesn't mean that teachers are doing anything wrong. It does mean that we need to think differently, think about how we go well attract and then cultivate and keep great educators. That's really important and going back to something else that you just mentioned the school choice based reforms that you said have been very effective, very sticky. I think he said school choice has run up against a lot of problems. As everybody knows from teachers unions to what extent would you say teachers unions stand in the way of reform certainly wouldn't say that there always opposed to reform sometimes there per reform. But what about that fight that goes on between people who really want to give parents and kids a better option for school, maybe they live in kind of a failing area they want to be able what's waiting for Superman movie all over again.

Teachers unions do you think that they're good for education.

Do you think that there are overall detrimental. How do you feel about that you do what we expect members with numbers one is best for kids. In many cases when you protect expensive pension plan extremely healthcare plan would unions oppose school choice plans. I think their standing wave families want to have your kids better serve and frankly the way educators sometimes were frustrated by the bureaucracy and management in the local school system, but who can't go work there anywhere else very easily. It must be picked up and moved to another place. All so the funny thing is I think one person sometimes made it easier on unions to the wrong track with push forward accountability policy or teacher evaluation plants which are all which you know are so focused on reading and math scores that they seem to lose sight of the real world when they are holding teachers accountable for things that parents think don't make any sense to hold teachers accountable for when that happens you performers drive teachers union and the teachers union to protect her. One of the funny thing is that the more sensible and measure performance, more regular futures are not going to want to wind up with the union and the more manageable it is to reform, even with interesting what your thoughts are on how public schools in America. Overall are doing in actually educating kids. There is always discussion about previous generations while I read many more books were much better read. We had a much better handle on geography and history in these days there spending so much time on technology. These kids don't know as much as we did.

What's your assessment on what kids actually know and how well-rounded they are educationally when they leave the public schools we were appropriately no right right back in 1987-year-olds know what's going to know what set. What are everything to know about the world geography, history, reality today, and the performance going back to half-century when it comes to reading, math before my fingers were actually doing a little better over time. We only have beta goes back about 25 or 30 years all we've been half-century overall. And the reality is, our schools have been making improvements that flattened out over the last quarter-century, but when you look at these performance levels internationally. Even with steady improvements where generally falling in the middle of the pack when it comes to international comparison, even though were spending as much prepared as any nation of the world would set up to. For me that's up to. Not horrible but certainly mediocre performance. Probably you know it best. Your C+ which is not greatly want and that's not even close. Not even close. And that's I mean that's a really important consideration. So when you're talking to people. Parents are educators about how to think about education reform. What is the wisdom you've gleaned over the years. What would you do differently or recommend differently than you may have 20 years ago I learned over time that are used mostly about having good ideas and wanting to do good things for two and I think the biggest thing I learned of the good intentions when it comes to something this complicated, that affects so many other people children but good intentions and good ideas count for a lot less than what was stated what counts for a lot more but I just appreciate the willingness to roll up your sleeves to stick with one proposal day after day, month after month, year after year to learn from it and figure out how to actually make it the liver and real schools real kids in the funny thing is, whether it comes to philanthropy or government job the way you know what gifts attention in newspapers and the news media you get attention by hopping from one thing to the next rather than will fit in with the that's a really good point yeah and I love how you say, it's really important to talk to people rather than Them.

That's always good advice and so important for people to keep in mind while a great book, letters to a Young education reformer Rick Castro and he is from the American enterprise Institute and it was so great to have your Rick thank you very very much for being with us all right.

Thanks again. Take care and thank you for being here team effort today. You can find more about us over and Janet Mefford, see their thanks a lot for listening this hour has been brought to you by fiber link international we want to send 1500 Bibles to Africa through Bible leaves open the floodgates Bibles for Africa campaign five dollars cents one final call now 800 yes worth 800 yes were


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