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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Mike Stone (SBC Convention) Jim Fletcher (Israel)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
June 10, 2021 4:30 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Mike Stone (SBC Convention) Jim Fletcher (Israel)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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June 10, 2021 4:30 am

The Southern Baptist Convention elects a new president next week, but will the scathing public attacks just launched by ex-ERLC head Russell Moore end up helping a conservative get elected? Conservative presidential hopeful and pastor Mike Stone will join me to talk about it. Plus: A new poll shows more dropping support for Israel among evangelicals. Jim Fletcher, director of Prophecy Matters, will weigh in on Thursday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.


This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby.

That's 855-402-2229 or Janet is our confidence is in Christ alone, I saw you know Baptist convention will convene its annual meeting and an increase edibles Eckstein thousand messengers already have preregister to be there in Nashville.

There a lot of issues on tap at one of the big reasons that this year's annual meeting is sure to be under the spotlight is due to the resignation of Russell Moore as head of the ethics and religious liberty commission and his recent skating attacks on fellow Southern Baptists and that leaked email and leaked letter released right as he headed off for Christianity today.

It was a shocking and in my opinion, classless way to depart, and as my next guest points out wars attacks could end up influencing the election of the new president of the Southern Baptist convention, but a lot of Christians are now wondering, could Moore's PR strategy actually backfire and lead to the election of a true conservative who wants to bring the convention back to a full embrace of biblical truth.

In Christian unity.

One of the conservative candidates for president and one of the people Russell Moore actually named in those leaked writings is my next guest, Mike Stone. Mike is pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in black sure Georgia immediate past Chairman of the executive committee of the SBC and he was chair of the executive committee's ER LC study task force.

Mike's also member of the national steering Council of the conservative Baptist network and were to talk about all of these things today. Some of the public responses he had to Moore's attacks and also the vision God has given him for the future of the SBC including a proposed resolution on the incompatibility of critical race theory and intersection alley with the Baptist Faith and message a lot to talk about Mike. It's so great to have you with us. Thanks for being here, and it is a privilege to be with you, am honored by the opportunity to connect with you and all realtors.

Well, I'm delighted to talk to you what a week. I'm sure you didn't anticipate going into the SBC convention with Russell Moore's attacks on the front page against you. What what is your reaction time into the content. I know you put out a statement in a video, but what what your general response to the content and also the timing of these attacks will the content of largely thought of a whole will call him. It is fabricated and what is there that have a measure of truth is distorted to suit his own political purposes. In your intro you referenced it think we would most of the Baptist would be in agreement. This was not a leaked letter.

This was a carefully crafted, intentionally used back door press release of the second one in particular that was supposedly private correspondence to sitting president Dr. JD Greer goes to great length to identify and give the little bio of a mutually known person. This is clearly not the kind of correspondence that one person ascending to another to be private and an intentional hit piece against me, and it is a desire to influence the outcome of the recent presidential election. No doubt about that. In my mind at all. Well I think it's really sleazy. Do you think Russell Moore's outburst was linked to his anger over that task force that you had it up about the air.

LC and its effect on CP giving. I think it's really even broader than that. Think it is a desire to cover up several years 78 years of divisive and failed leadership of the ER, LC.

That is the as he is going now and he has a failed record as president of the euro you got the blame it on someone. You can't blame it on the fact that he's been out of touch arrogantly out of touch with rank-and-file Southern Baptist known all across the southern Baptist convention is refusing to even return emails and return phone calls and has been one of the most divisive figures in the recent history of the Southern Baptist convention.

He has to blame it on someone and ask if he is chosen to blame it on me. It's a real shame. I thought that it was really like I said before, sleazy for him to do it but I'm not really surprised that he would do it when you are looking at how this might impact the election of a new president next week. What what you think might come of all of this because people are really worked up if you go on social media and you look at all the articles of Russell's friends in the liberal media they're all calling him this great hero.

But how do you think this might actually affect the election will again I think Southern Baptist for what it is. The reality is that is generated a lot of turnout from all across the spectrum in southern Baptist line so the end of the day. I don't look back way what the end result will be. I will tell you that from the very beginning of my candidacy trusted and rested in the sovereignty of God. Even last week not getting angry about it but just trusting in the Lord that if the Lord chooses to use this for some sanctifying purpose in my life or the lives of others.

I'll trust in God's providence, but I do think that that's Russell's attempt is to torpedo my potential to serve as president of the SBC. I personally think about making a guess what I'm hearing is that it's going to backfire because again Baptist are not stupid people.

They see through this like the cheap thin sheet that it is it is a nugget of the desire to keep deeply entrenched long-term politicians and powerbrokers in the SBC entrenched in their places of power that I think that rank-and-file Southern Baptist messenger see-through. That's well I really hope and pray that's the case, and there have been people raising questions will one of the people on the docket running against you is Al Mohler who has very big rock main name recognition. Obviously across the southern Baptist convention and he's been around forever, but Al Mohler and Russell Moore quite linked. So what are we to make of that. Well, you know, Dr. Dr. Moeller is in many ways the one that gave Southern Baptist Russell Moore motion and the ascension that he had on the campus at Southern seminary and I can tell you for fact at times when numerous Southern Baptists were discussing the challenges with Russell and his leadership at your LC's number one cheerleader propping him up behind the scenes, even giving him no alumni of the year award was Elmo and Dr. Moeller now reports as if he's the statesman that can help bring everyone together and yet the reality is no Southern Baptist would argue with the point that Al Mohler has been one of the most influential figures in the last 25 years of the Southern Baptist convention and rightly so. If he has the wherewithal to have address these issues and used his influence and stature to rein in some of these issues that I think a lot of Southern Baptists are legitimately asking, not in anger but insincerity.

Why have you not done so why do you think getting one more list on your resume.

Why is that going to suddenly give you the ability and the courage to stand up and deal with these issues.

That's a fair question.

So going into this election.

I know you've been with the conservative Baptist network and there's a whole story there with Al Mohler and the people who are upset about the establishment of the conservative Baptist network. But really, there has been a lot of momentum gained I think among conservatives on a number of issues, not the least of which has been that resolution nine that was passed on critical race theory. That's one of the things that you're looking to address aren't you through this resolution that you proposed. I actually proposed a resolution you referenced earlier. A total but incompatibility of critical race theory and in her sexuality with the Baptist Faith and message. I do think that we need to handle the issues with grace and compassion.

There is a sensitivity of course on the part of any of our non-Anglo brothers and sisters in the southern Baptist convention. Having said all of that Southern Baptist were going to be successful we need to be first and foremost, spiritually, and biblically successful, and that means we make our decisions.

Yes, with an understanding of of sentiment and emotion around an issue, but at the end of the day we yield to the authority and the sufficiency of the word of God, and six of our seminary presidents.

All six of them signed the document on November 30 of last year, stating the critical race theory and in her sexuality are incompatible with the Baptist Faith and message so the irony is one African-American pastor and the Southern Baptist convention, said this would be the most racist resolution in the history of the Southern Baptist convention hall were really doing is agreeing with a unanimous statement that was issued by our sick seminary presidents, which I think could generally be understood to be six theologians that we trust their theological acumen. All these issues.

I was a little bit greed that it took some of them from the Birmingham convention until November 30, 2022. Speak with an awful lot of clarity on this issue, but at least they have done so now, and the resolution that I've been the primary author of weeks to just go on record CRT in her sexuality are incompatible with what we believe Southern Baptist of the word of God teaches. I'm really encouraged about it and I know a lot of other people are as well in the Southern Baptist convention as well as a lot of those names and men who have signed on and women to I think of Carol Swain and others have signed on to that resolution that you're proposing it's going to be very important as part of the discussions next week at the Southern Baptist convention's annual meeting pastor Mike Stone, candidate for president is with us will come back to the discussion. After this break you listening to Janet Lafferty.

I disses Janet Mefford for pre-born Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by pre-born allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat sonogram sealed the deal for me baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope. Nice size heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside me sonogram changed my life went from just Candace to mom to everybody that is given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving five pre-born has 10 centers that do not have ultrasound machines which you make a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today. These lifesaving machines cost more than most centers can afford your tax-deductible gift of 15000 Dollars Will Pl. a machine in a needy women's center and save countless lives for years to come. To donate, call 855402 baby 855402 baby or there's a banner to

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That's why Mercy ship Springs volunteers support our hospital ship, the Africa Mercy to give the world's forgotten for the free medical care they need. We have an immediate need for registered nurses, especially with specialty as a volunteer nurse. You will just give life altering healthcare will receive so much in return. Experience home and make a difference in the lives of those who have virtually no access to medical aid. Every man he said there time waiting for show mercy to someone today. I get more information and learn how to apply by visiting Mercy versus Mercy you're listening to Joan at Medford today and know you're welcome back. It's great happy with us and great to have with us Pastor Mike Stone. He is one of the candidates for the presidency of the Southern Baptist convention. There will be a vote next week when they gather for their annual meeting and it seems Mike that this is a very large crowd that is going to be expected. Is that what you're hearing is well 16,000 messengers. That's a lot. The registration I think with a lot of folks are driving and that they will rush on the spot would not be surprised if we talk 20,000 which is the largest annual meeting attendance and over 25 years. That's incredible place you said people are motivated. A lot has happened there has been a lot of division.

Obviously, in the Southern Baptist convention. Over the last several years.

We talked about resolution nine and the potential for overturning that and getting back on the right track.

The other issues that has come up though Mike is you know is this question of egalitarianism and the idea of female pastors and people have pointed out, for example, what the Baptist Faith and message has said and what the Southern Baptist convention historically has said about the biblical notion that there is no such thing as a female pastor and yet you have some of these church plants from the North American Mission Board that people have written about saying how they got women pastors and they got husband and wife pastors what you do about that issue. Beth Moore famously exited the SPCA and talked about preaching in pulpits and things like that where you think that issue is headed and how can you help out for a statement of clarity by the Southern Baptist convention.

I think that we need to have a holistic review of the Baptist Faith and message that is we we need a passport or committee to bring some recommendations to update the entirety of the bed and message to address some specific issues culturally, morally, that were not even interview in 1999 and 2001.

The current iteration was adopted by the convention in one of the things that I would like to see the Southern Baptist convention do is to address whether it's just the office but it title of pastor or the office and function of pastor because a lot of things that we see even in some of our now sponsor church plants and other churches across the convention if they effectively have a woman serving as pastor or copastor, but they just give her a different title and I believe that that is inconsistent with what the Scriptures teach and what Baptist have historically believed and practiced.

So I think we're headed for what may be considered. Some watershed clarity on that issue well and will do you think lead to further division because I I'm looking for example we were talking about Rossmore Russell Moore leaving his post at the ER. LC keeps leaving the SBC. Also, he's going to a church that is not a Southern Baptist Church and it makes you wonder how many on that side of the aisle are committed Southern Baptist when it comes there's a lot of discussion about yes we hold to this, we hold to that we hold to this, but in practical terms, it seems that they don't and I'm wondering what you think the effects of clarifying some of these issues like egalitarianism will do to the membership of the SBC potentially will certainly not meet my desire you to leave the Southern Baptist convention anymore than as a pastor, all members to leave our congregation at the end of the day.

However, clarity of doctrine leads to unity. It does not lead to division it may lead to some controversy or some challenges in the short term but clarity and precision of doctrine over the long haul leads to unity among that body of believers in southern Baptist have the right to determine their own parameters of cooperation, and I think when we see a review of the Baptist Faith and message on that point I think is going to break it will make some people no doubt feel like they are no longer part and cannot fellowship with the Southern Baptist convention, but I do believe that it will provide clarity and unity for for the rest of the convention which I personally think is the overwhelming majority of the hurt someone recently. Janet say that in the history of the SBC. The highest number of churches that had female pastors was about 1000 so that is not something that Southern Baptist have historically practiced I would hardly call that trend but we do see an increasing trend of all churches that have women operating in these capacities and functions, but I think clarity is going to bring about long-term shoots. Do you believe that the SBC has become to culturally impacted or culturally affected by some of the trends in secular ideology. All critical race theory intersection alley.

We discussed that and and the fact that it's incompatible with the Baptist Faith and message. But what you do about the overall problem of as some Christians see it in the SBC.

There is a movement within the SBC where whatever is hip and cool in the culture they want to put that into the of the at least the culture of the SBC and then say well this is biblical. This is gospel unity that we need to have these issues that kinda talk.

What how you deal with that if you are elected president. Well the first thing that I have that I would input is a refocus on evangelism Janet in the last several years, Southern Baptist leadership have started calling just about every issue on the docket, a gospel issue nor gospel has become more of an adjective that is on now defining a body of truth about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And when everything is a gospel issue, then nothing is a gospel issue and were beginning to see the practical results of that across the convention in 2019 and I'm going back to 19.

Just because we understand hope in 19 of the pandemic. In 2020 will brought about a lot of challenges for local congregations.

But in 2019 Southern Baptists all their lowest number of baptism since 1939. So while I'm not a pragmatist. I will make a very pragmatic statement. What we're doing is not working while we're calling everything under the sun. A gospel issue worsening lesson last gospel fruitfulness and gospel impact and I think the way you reverse that is you just simply reverse it. You start challenging people and what the gospel is that we exist as a convention of churches for the propagation of the gospel, not for the propagation of progressive cultural trends CRP intersection alley. All of this progressive woke-ism that is taking over the entire country that is not the purpose and function of the Southern Baptist convention's will. That's well said, I really agree with you on that. I think that's extremely important here is another question that I hear from a lot of conservatives in the SBC they been saying this for quite a while, but now that Russell Moore has gone over to Christianity today were he probably will find a better home. Is there a need a continuing need to think for the ear LC because a lot of people have expressed concerns about finding it and it has it really passed its usefulness. What what your position on that my positional data quite simple.

I believe Southern Baptist need to do a very thorough study on whether your LC in its current form is the most efficient and effective means to address the ethics and religious liberty concerns for Southern Baptist.

We give to the ER LC around 3 1/4 million dollars a year. They raise about another million or so from other sources. Conference fees and things of that nature, but Southern Baptist and 3 1/4 million dollars a year on the ER LC and I personally believe that we could do an awful lot of lobbying work as well as some of the other work that your LC has been doing, or in some cases not doing I think we can get more bang for our buck with a whole lot less divisive than this, that we see coming out of the ER LC right now that sounds good. Do you think when you go back to the memory of the conservative resurgence in the late 70s and that was really a battle over the inerrancy of Scripture, and a lot of conservatives now or say no.

It's really now about the sufficiency of Scripture.

Something that you mentioned earlier is that going to be a focus if you are elected president that if we say we believe God's word.

We better live it and we better stand for it and stand on it and not try to be duplicitous about it. Absolutely I have said and own preaching ministry for years, even before some of these more recent trends that in an errant Bible is of no practical use.

If it is not also authoritative and sufficient that if you could theoretically get an in errant dictionary that went through enough publishers and editors to make sure all of the phonetic spelling definitions were all correct. You could get a dictionary that doesn't have mistakes in it, but it's not to be authoritative and sufficient over our lives and in errant Bible that is not also God's authority for us and all that we need not not to know how to make cakes or change the oil in her truck sufficient for everything that we need related to godliness and holiness it if the Bible is not also authoritative and sufficient brand benefits inerrancy is of no practical use to us absolutely. I know we don't have a lot of time left Mike but what you think is the way forward on the sexual abuse issue which a lot of people are concerned about, not just people on the left to like to use it as a battering ram.

But people who are also conservatives very concerned about the sexual abuse issue.

What you have on tap to tackle that issue. Well, for starters, I will point out that I myself am a victim of sexual abuse. I don't identify victim status, but it's a fact that happened to me when I was a child, which is part of the reason that is so outrageous to me. Of these false accusations but I'm unconcerned or uncommitted on this issue.

One of the things that Southern Baptist need to focus more on this to come alongside our churches and resource them help equip and train them to do what only the local church can do. Janet, the Southern Baptist convention, only this two days a year.

So there's only so much with 47,000 local churches, literally from from coast-to-coast all across the country. There's only so much that an organization that only exist two days a year can do to help resource on this issue. I think that we need to focus on training and resourcing and where there are verified cases that sex abuse has been mishandled or victims have been further abused or mistreated in some way that I believe such churches have forfeited their rights, should they not repent and correct those errors, they forfeited their right to be a member of the Southern Baptist convention and that's actually what we begun doing over the last two years through the newly created credentials committee will that's very important and I'm very sorry for your own situation with being abused is just heartbreaking to think about it, but I think that that's an important angle here is something you pointed out in your responses to these leaked letter and email attacks on yourself, by Russell Moore because you were a victim, you know exactly how it feels.

And exactly what needs to be done.

It seems to go forward with no real integrity on the issue of sexual abuse can be very interesting Mike to see what happens next week.

I know a lot of people are praying for you and looking forward to seeing what the Lord will do during the gathering in Nashville, but I just want to reference people to your website.

Pastor Mike you can find out more about Mike and his ministry and Mike just an honor to talk to you. God bless you and thank you so much for being with us in mind. God bless you.

Thank you, Mike. You're listening to Janet Mefford this archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet Janet Mefford today and here's your host Joe Mefford back. I resent Paul is showing an alarming new drop in support for Israel among younger evangelicals. As the times of Israel reported a Barna group administered poll commissioned by researchers at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke indicates a sharp drop in support for the Jewish state, and raises concerns that Israel could lose a key ally going forward.

In fact, nearly half of evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 now say they favor the establishment of a Palestinian state. What in the world is going on and why is this shift so significant were to get some thoughts now from Jim Fletcher. He is director of prophecy matters in a colonist speaker and author on Bible prophecy issues so good to have you with us. Jim welcome you tell us what your perspective is on this Paul. I know you've been tracking this issue of younger evangelicals going further and further from support for Israel.

But what what you think about this most recent finding that we've talked about here that you're seeing younger evangelicals in large measure. Moving further and further to the left. Well, I really think this is the outcome of you know the last 20 years of softening up the evangelical world in various ways. I mean, it's not just one thing, but the downturn in real Bible teaching in churches certainly weighs heavy social justice that come in and and then the inroads outstanding in community made within American churches in the last 10 years. I think it also I think you're absolutely right about that when we give some of the numbers here so people can understand the date I guess. Went to 700 evangelical Christians between the ages of 18 and 29. They were asked where they placed their support in the recent Israeli-Palestinian dispute quote unquote and just 33.6% said they stand with Israel. 24.3% said they stand with the Palestinians and another 42% said, with neither side but the funny thing is, you can look at that and say well there was more support for Israel but three years ago.

Jim, 69% of young evangelicals sided with Israel, only 5.6% said they sided with the Palestinians.

Do you think that this is perhaps more of knee-jerk reaction. I mean, that's such a big difference between those numbers in just three years. That's just incredible to me, and do they not know that Israel was attacked by Hamas I I'm not really sure if they even know what's going on over there that your last correct. I'm certainly no you look everyone try to see the man on the street interview. They do with these new demographics and they don't really know what's going on. I don't think they understand all who Thomas is her thing. Unfortunately, I think this is just an acceleration of what was kind of an easy prediction a few years ago. In fact, I remember it was 10 years ago that some of the leadership with national excuse me Christians die for Israel.

You know what were saying. If something isn't done about this problem within 10 years of me really and dire in so here we are, and you know you hope it would change the know you try to do some things that that would would turn around bit, but it was pretty clear that we were again end up in this place and and as you you alluded to. I think that the next few years will see you know flip really to the other side boy. While this do you think could be a theology shaft because no doubt there are people who call themselves evangelicals or just more left us politically or influenced by leftist and southern just making a political kind of statement to a poll like this, but what about the theology I know you and I have talked about some of these groups that are influential within evangelicalism, turning younger evangelicals more against Israel what's going on theologically. Well, sort of smorgasbord I mean you know you got left-wing progressives like Doug Padgett, Tony Jones, Shane Claiborne brand, Clarendon been infiltrating for a long time she have that going on, but then you also have, for example within the Baptist convention.

You know there's there's a lot of reform influence and and that has really turned the tide against Israel, and in my opinion, in that denomination.

So it is several different groups coming together, all with the same the same in Volvo is centerleft perspective. Theologically right now when you talk about the reformed influence in the Southern Baptist convention and clearly the Gospel coalition together for the gospel. Some of these other parachurch organizations that have been so influential explain to people what the tie is between the reformed influence and the waning support for Israel because there is a theological reason, but I'm not sure everybody would totally understand what that is. It comes from the last hundred years or so and a lot of the scholarship in the seminaries you know what was turn more this way. Like for example they would be they would be solid on something like you know the doctrine of creation, the Genesis account but there were certain presbyterian scholars can have influence in you notice this whole subject of Israel and then we got the question of who is the true Israel and that sort of thing. Sorry, I think a lot of it comes from that, mainline or even conservative faction that that God is real really wrong and and so now it took a long time but that's now filtered down to the straight evangelical denominations right now are you talking about strict replacement theology, or more, the eschatology of millennialism. What is what is the theological point on which this all turns think a lot of it is replacement theology.

I mean the eschatology they have been able to hack Bible prophecy and Israel simultaneously, but yeah the eschatology is one thing but this comes down to the fact that and I'm what I'm about to say is based on 25 years of hundreds of conversations with you.

Leadership centered professors and then just rank-and-file. I think there are too many evangelicals, especially in leadership that simply do not like Jews. They don't like Israel as a sovereign, powerful country, but they they get it. I can say this with the Jewish problem and informs their theology and so for example you know they don't like the promises to Israel to restore Israel and so they transfer that in a spiritual sense of the church and so that's where you get the replacement theology. Not again. I think a lot of evangelical denominational leadership today is in that place the prior generations it really strong for Israel they're gone now and they been replaced by no fortysomething people now who they they just don't like the idea of national restore Israel. Why now that is a strong statement for you to say, but what mean you can't deny that there has been a rise in anti-Semitism. I don't know if you're referencing actual anti-Semitism, blatant anti-Semitism or or more of you know, kind of a well I'm I'm not really up on the national Israel thing and people complaining well you know the Palestinians have been hurt in this sort of thing.

I also wonder how much of it truly is being uninformed like we were talking before because when you try to get into some of these issues with some these younger evangelicals. It's a pretty simplistic mindset that they have.

It's as if they haven't really read the Bible to see what it says about Israel, you're exactly correct.

So with the rank-and-file. The millennial group that is absolutely the case is simply not having information or the correct information, but again at the leadership level. I just feel a little more sinister. I think that they know what the issues are and they've chosen sides and it's not on the side of Israel.

That's a real problem and I want to get into this more. Jim Fletcher is my gas from prophecy matters talking about this poll showing an alarming new drop in support for Israel among younger evangelicals when we come back. I want to get into some of the information about some of the groups that are driving this from within you might be surprised to hear about some of these people will come back right after this unchained method today hi this is Janet Mefford here in need of a new healthcare program that you missed the open enrollment deadline in December. It's not too late.

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This is Janet Mefford on a 100 day in Ethiopia Africa.

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When we look at this recent poll showing support for Israel among US evangelical Christians of the younger generation is dropping sharply. You have to be concerned it's not just a potential problem politically but it's a definite problem.

Theologically, when you look at what the word of God has to say about Israel. Jim Fletcher is with us, director of prophecy matters. Jim, as I mentioned before, I know you and I have talked about some of the groups and people who are influencing this turn in theology, but one of the groups does this tell us group and this was outed a number of years ago by camera. The committee for accuracy in Middle East reporting and analysis as being Soros funded this is very interesting because when they're trying to say we want justice and peace for all what they have found is that the tell us group really is promoting an anti-Zionist narrative. That's what they've said is it do you see that group is being a real influencer of the younger generations, and intentionally so yes on both counts. But I do. They made really and road 10 years ago. They really started to accelerate their work in this area know cleverly describing themselves as pro-Palestine, pro-Israel, pro-peace, there really there there talking points really PLO you know they they will talk about you know occupation and things like that they don't really call out Hamas and in those groups now that the leadership of Fellowship Todd Deatherage was believe Southern Baptist. He worked in the Bush administration, George W.

And FAA really can't account his mainstream evangelical views, but at the end of the day the policies he promotes are centerleft and they're very sophisticated and good at how they communicate with with Kirsten millennial's and and unfortunately have had a lot of influence what you see. I know you've been to Israel several times and and you seen kind of the effects on the grounds that Israel react to this because I know for a lot of Israelis.

They've been used to Christians in the United States in particular really supporting them.

Are they beginning to feel this pushback and and the swing they are. You know I think they have not explored this in the I and and I love them course, but in and they have a lot of irons in the fire. Obviously they've got a lot of enemies. What a different direction.

This one is one that is sort of under the radar and I don't I don't think the resources have been committed to combat this, as it should have.

Now, yes, the Israeli leadership is largely aware of what's going on how to answer. It is another question.

That's right. So Jim, if you're just giving a short synopsis for a younger evangelical who might be swayed by the narrative of the tell us group or Christ at the checkpoint. What you say about why evangelical Christians should support Israel not just practically speaking, because it's the only democracy in the Middle East, but also theologically what would be kind of a brief synopsis that you would begin with to try to make that case theological point is most important and I would say that an individual should look at Scripture look at the word itself. You know if you can set aside outside influence and set aside what you been told about Palestinian just read the word.

What is it say no we don't have any trouble accepting John 316, or universe like that. And yet other verses, though primarily Old Testament that relate to a future restore Israel which we see happening in front of her eyes that sort of thing that gets spiritualized and so I would say read the whole of Scripture. The way you read that the classic New Testament verses that what I think we all can agree on and understand that it's all the word of God and the really important point is crystal clear what is being said you know there's there's been a lot of propaganda that the Bible is hard to understand, and we don't know what this means they'll certainly there are things that take further study, but I think on the whole Bible is clear and on the on the issue of the history and destiny of the Jewish people in Israel crystal clear, and so again I would say to the individual. Read the word for yourself and see what you come away with what you should mean that is the most important thing to go back to the Bible and read it for yourself without all of these influences now. Insulin kind of making your reading of the Bible different than it would be otherwise. I mean, you think about Genesis 12 Jim where it says I will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you I will curse.

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed, and the promises given to Abraham when you spiritualize Israel.

That's a huge problem and going back to the reformed influence. One of the things that I've noticed is that the problem of spiritualizing extends beyond Israel. I mean, when you have people going back and supporting theistic evolution and well we can kinda spiritualize Genesis are saying in Revelation 20. Spiritualize Revelation what would prevent you from spiritualizing everything if you just read it you didn't want to accept it.

You made it. In fact, that's exactly the issue because the things that you mention it logically, you will come to a place where you will need to spiritualize the resurrection of Christ while and and and other things and believe me in my conversations with with Christian millennial's the last several years. They understand that and that's how they arrive at a lot of their there are things going. If Genesis 1 through 11 is not what it it appears to be. You can spiritualize and something else you can spare straws the rest of Scripture. And that's where a lot of the yeah right so what passages would you suggest people read to reclaim what the Bible really says about the promises of Israel and God's purposes for Israel in the future. Where would you send people all I would read the last two or three chapters of the book of Deuteronomy. I would read Ezekiel 3637 Jeremiah 30 read the last four chapters of the book of Zechariah to start yeah that's good that's good.

So when we are looking at the practical outgrowth of what where were seen the trends in American evangelicalism. Jim what is the potential of fact. Why does it matter I mean, for example, when we had Pres. Trump in office. He was as pro-Israel as it gets, and move the embassy and did all all kinds of things the Abraham courts, and so forth. If you don't have evangelicals getting behind Israel. What happens to the pro-Israel movement in the United States.

Well I think it's an appointed withers a way I hope I never I hope I don't live to see that day. Interestingly enough, though in my reading of Scripture. The very end. Israel does find herself alone and so that's interesting to see the movement away from Israel but but to answer your question. You know it's it's going to get weaker and weaker as time goes on and that that's that's a difficult thing to watch Swan is and going back to what we discussed earlier, were you see the rise of anti-Semitism.

You see how Bill de Blasio, the mayor of New York was treating Orthodox Jews during the shutdowns of covert, 19, it's obvious that there is some real spiritual warfare taking place and and this is all I mean in the final analysis, Jim. We want to proclaim Jesus Christ and the hope of Jesus Christ, the hope of the gospel note Christianity is Jewish. I think that was either see the shapers book that she wrote years ago.

This is important because if you are looking I would think at Israel as some kind of enemy, and Palestine is some kind of wonderful entity then you say what is that to it due to evangelism. Also, well, yeah, and when you write it actually reminded me of something.

If you look at what's going on in the new read history you see that America is in terms of Israel and the Jewish people were running parallel to Germany for about mid-19th century to mid 20th century that lead up to Hitler was a watering down of the gospel in the churches watering down of teaching the Old Testament and we know where that led. That's that's interesting yeah that and you're not just emphasizing the rise of anti-Semitism under Hitler, but also the weakening of the church. That's another site I keep getting more and more reasons Jim to be concerned about the weakening of the church, and you should be concerned about the weakening of the church for various reasons, but that's another one and I I just really appreciate what you do and the message that you put out there that we do need to continue to support Israel is evangelicals.

No nation is perfect, but we certainly know what the pages of Scripture say about God's promises to Israel and they remain true.

People need to go back and read and study their Bibles. Jim Fletcher, thank you so much for being with us.

I appreciate your faithfulness and your great biblical teaching. Thank you so much for being with us again, thank you very much yeah you back.

Take care God bless you. Thanks for joining us for another broadcasting team effort today. We appreciate you listening so much tune in next time

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