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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Don Green (Sola Scriptura) Tim Harlow (Righteous Anger)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
February 19, 2021 4:30 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Don Green (Sola Scriptura) Tim Harlow (Righteous Anger)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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February 19, 2021 4:30 am

How does God speak to us today? And what do we make of those who say that Sola Scriptura may be too confining? I'll talk it over with Don Green, founding pastor of Truth Community Church in Cincinnati. Plus: Many people today think of Jesus Christ as a mild-mannered savior who never got angry. But what does the Bible say? Tim Harlow, senior pastor of Parkview Christian Church in Orland Park, Ill., joins me to talk about it and his book, "What Made Jesus Mad?" That's next time on Friday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet Mefford.com is our confidence is in Christ alone is sort of speak audibly to us today. This was a question recently posed to the president of the Southern Baptist convention, JD Greer and he answered the question in a video they got some attention over on the Gospel coalition website. Here's what he said I've never been comfortable putting God a lot of boxes that he doesn't put himself in, and I don't know of anywhere in the Bible. This is no, he will absolutely never speak audibly against the man on the earth, so I guess the answer has to be no but I will say that even the Bible does indicate that the way that his spirit speaks is obviously through the Scriptures in these last days got a spoken newest Lewis on that includes you, the writing of the Bible. And so we shouldn't expect to hear from God. The way the apostles did and the prophets.

You want the things that's really odd is and ask their Holy Spirit shows up the nine different times of the book of acts, and 36 of the 59 he speaking now. What's a little frustrating for me sometimes.

Is it never tells us exactly how he speaks searching through the Holy Spirit, said the Barnabas said to the church separate Barnabas and Saul for the work of ministry want to know how to say that everybody had the strange food and hardly write it on the wall ready speak audibly. It doesn't say and I think that ambiguity is intentional, because God does not want us to have the assurance that he is saying things are written the Bible because more havoc has been reached in the ward of the church following the words of God just told me them probably any other phrase in Christian history will now this is a really interesting clip because it raises all sorts of questions about how God beats to us today and the writer to the Hebrews did note in chapter 1 of that book that in these last days, God has spoken to us in his son.

But what does that mean and how are we to understand in light of the Reformation principle of Sola script Torah or Scripture alone Logan to talk about it today with Don Greene done his founding pastor of truth Community Church in Cincinnati and also hosted the daily radio program.

The truth pulpits done it so great to welcome me back. How are you Janet I'm doing great and I really appreciate the opportunity to be with you again thank you absolutely will. It's great to have you. Thank you so much. Does God speak audibly to us today. I'm curious for your answer to that important question because there are some people who are really confused about that. Well I think the adult think I could state it more plainly or more dogmatically than answering simply no not right and and we need to be clear and unambiguous about that. I was so I listen to that clip that you played because JD Greer was trying to talk out of both sides of his mouth and have it both ways Scripture alone, but it's not really Scripture alone that creates a lot of confusion that a careful study of Scripture would never lead you to what this is really important because he started out talking about.

I want to put down the box.

There's nowhere in Scripture he's definitively said he would never speak audibly again. Then he says no I would have to say no God doesn't speak audibly today, but you're right, that sort of opens the door a little bit, it would seem at first blush to say, well, God maybe could now there are all sorts of theological problems that are there.

If you begin to give any credence to the idea that God could speak audibly, then who gets to say God told me our God didn't tell me where I got this vision or I got this message from the Lord now or into a whole new realm. Are we, if we begin to go down that road you really are you given no you have evacuated the church of any means of granting any discernment to those kinds of claims they have to be taken at face value because you opened the door for them to be accepted that it exactly contrary to what the reformers did in the Westminster confession in the 1689 London Baptist confession. They said the whole counsel of God was contained in the holy Scripture, under which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the. Or traditions of men Westminster in London Baptist confession are identical on this point and the AA basic study of of Reformation theology shows that the reformers would've had nothing to do with this and so JD Greer is advocating a departure from the very formative principle of the Reformation. It's a very serious error that is advocating is now being promulgated on the Gospel coalition website. It's very disappointing. While they were like Christians are very disappointed about it and a little shocked about it but you know that this is important thing when we talk about Sola script Torah.

The Scripture alone. Principle one of the five solos of the Reformation that we have inherited is Bible believing Christians.

This is such an important thing Don for Christians to understand, especially those who may not be familiar with the history surrounding the controversy about Scripture alone talk a little bit if you would about that principle.

And for those who are not familiar with Sola script Torah. How did our forefathers in the faith really understands that principle to be absolutely critical to our lives as Christians well critical because it goes to the very barrier to authority. Where have spoken and how do we know that he has spoken, and contrary to what was suggested in the clip that you played.

Scripture makes it very clear. It claims an exclusivity for itself. About the place where God has made himself known. That's why you find the Bible repeatedly pointing to itself, to hear God's word.

Psalm one Psalm 19 Psalm 119 Jesus said in John eight. If you continue in my word are truly disciples of mine second Timothy 316 and 17 that the word of God is sufficient to make a man adequate for every good work. Everything that the Bible is about would be contradicted if, after the close of the canon God's intention was to lead his people through audible voices and things that were outside of you cannot have it both ways. That's a great point. That's a really great point, so when he was raising the issue about the Holy Spirit speaking umpteen times in acts but asking.

Well we don't really know how the spirit spoke was it writing on the wall. Was it speaking audibly. I mean the canon was not closed in the book of acts. So isn't that kind of a moot point. That's really not the point of saying whether or not God can speak audibly because we have the Bible now were not living in those times of the early church anymore that that crucial point. Janet acts as a transitional book from the resurrection of Christ in section 2 through the apostolic agent showing the founding of the church in part through Paul's three missionary journeys were not living in but were not living in the age of acts more were living in the age of the completed Canon and so were not to expect those things in acts to be repeated here. Furthermore, if it was necessary for us to know how the spirit was speaking in the book of acts God would have told the fact that the picture is silent about that is not a means of disappointment to me at all. It's a matter of deferring to the fact that God told us what we need to know, and we need to be satisfied with that.

Oh yeah excellent point thing that comes to mind and I want to dive into this and little bit more detail after the next break that when you think about the principle of Scripture interpreting Scripture is that not an important thing to employee when were talking about how God speaks to us today because it is easy for somebody to merely pull out one verse or one book of the Bible and try to make some kind a case that nobody else is really making when we can really interpret Scripture by reading the whole Bible and comparing these passages I mean this was also a hallmark of what the reformers taught us that we take all of what Scriptures is about all of it self in every aspect. It takes and we take the fullness of biblical theology to reach our theological conclusions rather than basing it on one verse out of context or saying in the negative sense there's not a single verse that that lays out the stock imports therefore were not bound by both of those extremes are very dangerous right and it also does it not also come across as a bit of one scene attack, but the sufficiency of Scripture is also vital yes and part of Paul's point in second 316, and also in Psalm 19 word that the word of God is perfect, restoring the soul. If Scripture was not perfect in itself. If it was not efficient. We couldn't say that it was perfect and adequate for every need and so this idea of continuing revelation is a direct attack on the Bible itself says about how John what a great point.

We have to pause for a break will come back with John Green were talking about how God speaks to us today will be back on Janet for today right after this, this is Janet Mefford and I'm joined today by Matt Bellis with liberty help share a national nonprofit healthcare sharing ministry is what liberty healthcare is all about. Here is a network of men women and children all across the country who voluntarily share medical bills with one another, we do so without the advent of any kind of government program or third-party insurance. We are voluntarily sharing medical bills with one another what you would normally to do with people whenever you have a situation that was unexpected and unaffordable. Your friends and family and community that you would turn to. So were a group of people share each other's medical bills with one another is liberty healthcare respect your conscience as a Christian will. As Christians, we are very much pro-life and as an organization we respect that as well so you can be rest assured that you are a part of liberty, healthcare of your sure about are going towards things that would violate your conscience, so we would never contribute or share money in something that would result in the end about abortion or go towards an abortifacient drug that's not who we are at all because we know that's not you are at all is liberty healthcare affordable.

A lot of people seem to think so. That's a big part of what what were about you, but if you moral expense or to have backdoor pricing on a lot of healthcare bills and fill with liberty healthcare. We've done all we can do to make the Christian tradition of healthcare sharing available and affordable to all. Thanks Matt more information about liberty healthcare is available@libertyhealthcare.org/GMT that's liberty healthcare.org/GMT or their phone number is 855-585-4237 that's 855-585-4237 you're listening to Mefford today and no Janet member today papers one versus wanted to say it plainly God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world were discussing the topic how God speaks to us today. My guest is Don Greene and he is the founding pastor of truth, community church and also hosted the daily radio show the truth pulpit. We were talking about how God has given to us his word and there you see in Hebrews chapter 1.

This reference to the fact that in the former day days in the former times he spoke through prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us in his son.

Now I would imagine just like any verse in the Bible, somebody could take it and twist it, misunderstand it and say somehow.

Well, if he still speaking, if he speaks to us in his son. Then Jesus told me something then Jesus told me something we to understand Solis get Tori in light of that verse.

How does God speak to us in his son and also in the Bible. How should we understand that well Scripture what you see in Hebrews 2 and an intention to recognize the principle of the progress of revelation from the Old Testament to the New Testament God prepared the way with the prophets, who anticipated the coming of Christ. Once the coming of Christ was fulfilled. There was no need for this further prophecy and at the end of Scripture at the end and the end of the book of Revelation. In Revelation chapter 22. It tells us not to add or take away from anything in the written word, yes.

And so as you understand the progress of revelation, you will you recognize the supremacy of the exultation of Jesus Christ and that he is the oldest revelation of God because he was God manifest in human flesh, you realize there's nothing more to say and what Christ did was at as he prepared for his departure. He appointed apostles to be his representative and to speak on his behalf and that that recognition of the authority in the unique position of the apostles is central to our faith because the apostles spoke for Christ interpreted his work interpreted his life for us and then at the end of their ministry. They said this is it. Now you will know the truth by comparing it to what we have said is first John four alludes to excellent excellence so those Christians who say for example John what about my dream that I had last night where God revealed something to me or a prophetic revelation that I can in church one Sunday. I mean they like to use the phrase sometimes don't put God in a box. But how would you react to well meaning may be youngsters in the faith who are saying God speaks to me directly. Yes I believe in the Bible, but I also believe in the personal experience with God where he really has a personal interaction with me that's on a deeper level. What you say to that from the word of God about those experiences. Well, it's obviously a challenge especially if you frame the question with young believers and what I would want to do with the young believers to just encourage them to come as Jesus said in John eight to continue in the word and to study the word and and let the word of God start to shape their thinking and to be under teaching that that is verse by verse exposition of the Bible. Beyond that, I would say this was a theological point the idea. It's a false it's a false narrative. It's a false comparison to say I don't want to put God in a box and it sounds like that's something humble that's being said dumping deferential to God but it's not bad at all. What is humble is to go to God's word and study carefully what you said and revealed what is humble is to be clear and accurate in the handling of God's word and when God has made it clear that he's not going to continue speaking after the coming of Christ in the close of the canon is not humble for me to say I'm not going to put them in a box. What's humble is to say, God has spoken and therefore I'm not going to look beyond his word to hear his voice yes what yeah.

There and let you take it where you want to go from there. Now that's such a great point that such an important point for people to recognize and what I was thinking about is people who will say, for example, the Bible says that nothing is impossible with God, so God can do anything right so you know it. Can God lift up make a rock so big that he can't left you get these kinds of absurd questions, but the point is, Don.

It seems to me God limits himself. If you want to say it that way God can't lie. God can't sin, and that's because of his holy character and his divine nature. So when we start using these phrases that we think sound good, are sound interesting. Sometimes we we are just missing the whole point I think putting God in a box kinda fits in that category two yeah I agree with his omnipotent power with power to do what he will do, not to do absolutely everything, including things are contrary to his character and in the same way, the way that he thinks now is that with this prior revelation not in contradiction to it while said now I know that you have been doing a series recently on how God guides us today and you have such great material in your preaching is so great what you think people need to understand about God's guidance in our lives through his word, because again were going back to the solar Scripture principle that Scripture is sufficient, is inerrant and it is sufficient for allies in all matters of faith and doctrine and practice. How would you advise a Christian to seek the Lord and to seek his guidance in our lives. But in the way that the Bible prescribes we do it well. I think there's a hold back that we need to understand is that it is to understand that the sufficiency of Scripture means that everything that is necessary for us to live a life that is pleasing to God and to be under the hand of his blessing is revealed to us in Scripture.

And so we start with obedience to his revealed moral will, in the four corners of the Bible. When we come to those areas of life that are not addressed specifically by the Bible who whom I going to marry what job my going to take where my going to live to understand that God does not intend us to engage a mystical pursuit of some prior prior decision or some prior will that were supposed to find is that he's hiding it rather to understand that he's given us freedom to make decisions according to our wisdom, and according to our desires that are secondary in those rounds that we we we make decisions with a sense of freedom that I could do either one and still be pleasing to God.

And in that are confident in our hope is not that we have a prior revelation of God and we followed that in these areas that aren't revealed to us. Rather, our confidence comes from the fact that we have a loving Shepherd over our souls who is providentially directing every detail of our life to accomplish his will. So whether I go left or go right whether I live in Columbus or I live in Lexington, God is directing that to accomplish his purposes in my life and will bless me.

Along the way but we just don't need to get bailed up and superstitious about trying to find these hidden messages from God about what were supposed to do.

The reason a silent thought about it that we have a realm of freedom to make decisions according to wisdom as we walk with him day by day in his word.

That's excellence now when were talking about the spirit speaking through the word.

I know that's a very deep subject.

We don't have a lot of time to get into it that you see for example in Hebrews chapter 3 the present tense. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as when they provoke me as in the day of trial in the wilderness, so there are references in Scripture to the Holy Spirit speaking present tense. What do we mean when we say the Holy Spirit speaks through the word, how should we understand that well. The principle is that we do not have the capacity to know God will in ourselves inside ourselves. We have no capacity given to us were were were worse sinners than we don't have that are our hearts are full of corrupt and so were not our hearts are not a fit vessel to receive inside revelation from God. We need his word from out side what the role of the Holy Spirit is is to illuminate us to take that objective word and help us to understand it. To help us to be receptive to its authority to give us the conviction that it is true. This is wrapped up in the doctrine of illumination and so the spirit helps our weak mind to receive understand and believe the truth and apply it properly to our lives through that word, not apart from that word, and that's the that's why God word the 66 books of the Bible is such a precious gift to is that this is the place where our Creator has spoken and we respect and elevate that word and realize that it is the authority and nothing else compares to it, not ideas in my mind, not nonprofit.

Speaking to me, not some extra biblical book like Catholic tradition, or the book of Mormon something like that Scripture stands alone as our authority and we respect and receive it alone and when you mention the Mormon church. For example, this is another safeguard that that we need to understand if you begin to buy into this idea that God can speak to me audibly or apart from his word. That's when you get calls.

I think we've seen a lot of that in American history. That's when you start getting people to say all the rest of you Christians have been wrong all of these years God has finally revealed it to me. We have the authoritative, inerrant word of God and we can check these people according to the word of God. God has given us the discernment to be able to do that.

We just need to be the brands that the apostles commended the brands for being which is checking what they were preaching against again the word of God. Yet that's exactly right. And when you realize that the close of the canon in the sufficiency of Scripture means there is no further revelation from God that is coming you. You are on the ground to reject all of those things without fear of missing something from God or sinning against God. You can go in confidence in a way that those who are open to further revelation can never do all this stuff is such important stuff for all of us as Christians to understand and to apply in our lives. The principle of Sola script Torah remains. It is a safeguard but it is our joy because God has revealed to us his word. He's revealed to us. Jesus Christ in his word. We don't need his audible voice outside of anymore. The truth public.com is the website. Check out the truth. Puppet hosted by Don Greene. Please join us down a joy to have you with us. Thank you so much.

This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies.

Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet Mefford.com Mefford today and here's your host Joe back on Janet for today. Remember that cleansing of the temple that the Lord Jesus Christ formed in John chapter 2. Here's what it says in the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons in the moneychangers sitting there and making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and oxen and he poured out the coins of the moneychangers and overturn their tables and he told those who sold the pigeons take these things away. Do not make my father's house a house of trade his disciples remembered that it was written zeal for your house will consume me. While this biblical account of the Lord's anger doesn't square with the image that a lot of people want to have about him, they would probably prefer to focus on a one dimensional Savior, whose mild-mannered at all times, but that is not the full picture as we know of who the Lord really is because it is true that Jesus did get angry working to talk about this today with Tim Harlow, senior pastor, a perfect Christian church in Orland Park, Illinois, and author of the book. What made Jesus mad and Tim, it's great to have you with us. Great beard will thank you for being here. I think this really is true and I know that you know this, having written this book, but what you make of this false impression that a lot of people have of Jesus, that being angry is bad.

And so Jesus was never angry.

You know the final draft of the idea of Jesus. What is Woodstock and you know you just want to go around and tell everybody to love their neighbor and he did. He didn't do that but what struck me was just how many of the red red letters. There really are, you start looking at all the know the walls and all that!

Dr. phrases like child availing correction and then you factor in the times when the Bible literally says that he got angry. Maybe it was time for us to take another look at who Jesus was and you know the refrigerator magnet if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy for me.

I just figured that through the person in charge is not happy, we should pay attention. That's what I did in the book yeah absolutely right. Well I think one of the misconceptions people have is that it would be wrong for God to be angry because angry equals sin. But, of course, even the Bible says be angry and do not send in Ephesians 420 60 would you explain to people what the differences between righteous anger and sinful anger, great question of the matter is the funny part about all Jesus's righteous anger was usually only angry at the people who had righteous anger meeting with the Pharisees, who were mad at him because he healed on the Sabbath, which was righteous anger because she wasn't really supposed to be working on the Sabbath so you know, I don't think it's about what's righteous and what's not right to and I don't think about you know anger or not anger.

I think this is the culmination of the fact that were human beings are going to be angry and in our anger it should cause us to reflect on what it is going on.

Sometimes it's in our own lives at selfish things. Sometimes it's incorrect desires and things we have going on in her life and obviously in Jesus's situation couldn't of been that. So if it is an anger that is legitimate than what we do with it, and then again what we learn from it. Yes that's right so when you look at that passage about Jesus cleansing the temple and having the width of cords and overturning the tables. How do you evaluate that passage and how do you better understand the anger of Jesus.

From that particular passage but the really important one of them is premeditated and we know that you going to the temple the night before. So when we talk about you know it feels like when reading matter at face value the Jesus just when you know just went crazy just walked in and was like when you got going there but we know that you knew what was happening ahead of time.

But the path of anything to me as I started thinking it through.

Starting it was the irony of the fact that I always was taught growing up that user was mad because there were selling something church so therefore we shouldn't tell something church and in the big lesson that everybody took away from it when I really dug into it know one thing the church is not the temple, so we we need to deal with our interpretation of Scripture in a new way. Also all the time but but what he was really feeling to be angry about was the house of prayer for all nations that you made into a den of robbers. When you go back and find out where the moneychangers were where they were selling the animals. It was in the court of Gentile, which was the only place that people far away could get close to God according to the temple and the way that was set up so that all nations part of that phrase is the thing that I think is even more important.

Jesus was crazy about what was going on, or the price was being charged.

But what think about where they were and what I found as I started thinking through what Jesus was angry about was it always came back to somebody blocking access to the love that he came to bring us from God as father and that's the perfect illustration right there. What would you apply that as well to Matthew chapter 23, where the Lord is rebuking the Pharisees and really calling them names and calling them out. I mean, I happen to love that chapter because I think it's just so amazing to see the Lord laying out the truth about these guys but would you put that passage in the same category actually signing books for our congregation like my scriptural reference I like to throw in Matthew 2313 that you're shutting the kingdom of heaven, and in people's faces when literally the behaviors that Jesus is mad about the Pharisees, all the willows, all of you know the legalism judgment: hypocrisy and even the match, straining indifference to human need. They all have to do with shutting the kingdom, making it harder for people to get into the kingdom well and people will read that and say okay that's how Jesus reacted to the Pharisees and he was very hard on them because they were not understanding who he really ought was and what he came to do, but it's weird because there's this disconnect there is a culture within a lot of our churches that says you should always be nice. You should always behave yourself. You're not really allowed to get angry because if you are angry, then you're sending your causing division. What is the application when you look at the anger of Jesus in these passages that we talked about another's to the Christian life. In other words, what is that tell me as a Christian about when it's okay to get angry illustration for me because I live in Illinois are churches in Chicagoland area and we very recently passed.

You know the most heinous abortion bill that there is in the country And you know I had to get up last weekend and say okay so let's talk about how as Christians we should deal with these things knowing that I'm preaching to a lot of people who were on all sides of the issue and I'm trying to be careful with it and for me I think with what it means for me is we should have okay we should bow we should go we should do all the things that the we have rights as US citizens to be able to do, but at the same time I think we have to let go of the idea that just because we bring in the God card everybody listen. People have a different view of God is so when it comes to our our ideas and our our opinions about what things are going to happen if it's people on the inside. Jesus was always very harsh with them. He said it would be better for you to be a millstone tied around her neck and thrown into the sea. That was for the people on the inside. The people on the outside. We have to be careful how we deal with the subjects because we are our father's goal.

Ultimately, you have all those people back home. So that's the balance that I tried to strike this last week in my place well and it is difficult because were also to be the salt and lights and and to go out into proclaiming out here. We had the weeping prophet Jeremiah who was in never saw the realization of God's people coming back and that was an inside thing that what about the place of the Christian being mad about the world in order to set the world right and say pay attention. God is trying to get your attention here. You mail on and you should because this is what you do, but the salt and the light is a perfect illustration, if I have too much salt is not going to work as Jesus is not salty.

I might as will be thrown out and be trampled by men to come back to this, but we do need to pause for a very quick break. What made Jesus man the book by Tim Harlow will come back right after this. I disses Janet Mefford for pre-born Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, and ultrasound provided by pre-born allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat sonogram sealed the deal for me baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope. Nice size heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside me sonogram changed my life went from just Candace to mom everybody that is given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money.

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That's my home state to and I understand how mad a lot of Christians are about the extreme radical nature of that bill, but you are right Tim, when you talk about the fact that you have a lot of non-Christians in Illinois who don't know the Lord who don't understand and I think a lot of Christians say well I'm really mad about this bill.

We need to push back. We need to be salt and light. You're also bringing up the important point, though, that for those who do not yet know Jesus Christ. They don't have the same understanding that we have an and how do you balance the salt and light with the righteous anger of same. Listen we can't be about killing children. How do we balance those two things out. I have the right answer.

I promise you I'm preaching to work right now and then I did the whole children bought one at a time you walk the children and you don't let him come to me and you know, at the same time, the abortion bill so I had to address it because I you can't. You can't just sit back and say about the matter because obviously matters but I think that your work you about salt and like always been something of come back to light. Jesus said you have light.

I know it's not doing you any good either. Under a bushel, let it shine, but if somebody's coming down the highway with those new LED bright lights on your best… Working very well either. There's got to be a place where we find a balance and where Jesus was interacting with the p.m. the same thing is true with fault.

Obviously, no junior I wanted to unscrew the lid and dumped it all over your bird set wasn't going to work either. I think the balance is found in all the funny thing is no what Jesus was always mad about was denied law. Jesus was here to bring us low so how do we love those people that were talking to who disagree with us on these things while at the same time believing in voting and standing for the rights of the of the things that we know we need to do salt like conundrum. I really think that always going to be what and what strikes me, Tim. When I think the passage that's popping in my head as were talking through this is in Revelation, where Jesus has the eyes like a flame of fire, and he who sat on this white horse was called faithful and true, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

I mean if there were ever a picture of Jesus that was not mild-mannered. It's that one in Revelation chapter 19, though, is a passage that expresses the anger of the Lord toward those who have not bowed the knee and that's the Jesus we really don't want to talk about. So what about when Jesus and God obviously throughout Scripture we see references to God's wrath. How do you deal with that as a pastor when you are exiting those passages and explaining them to people and saying listen God does have wrath. As part of his nature against sin and against rebellion but but he's a holy God.

At the same time I great question to me. I always come back to the filter. Jesus was when he was here.

You know John's Revelation and the symbolism in Revelation that things are going on in Jesus fighting against the great Dragon to me as I interpret the people. It is not about God's kids that he really wants home. It's about the Dragon what Dragon is done to people and the people who decide to follow him and the punishment that is that it that is incurred because of that when I go back to the Old Testament and I'm watching you know the Barack things are going on. I really struggle with that, Janet. I really don't know because I'm going to come back to where Jesus was. What I know about Jesus and how he dealt with the people on the inside and the outside and doctor to be my model and and I'm gonna come back to that one where the other did Jesus stand up for things absolutely Jesus really was a very political it really wasn't.

He wasn't about all that he was trying to be trying to teach us how to go into culture and into the place where were in it in a way in which we can connect with the culture and help them find their way back to God and I just been in ministry for 35 years of watch for things of gone and I feel like we've gone from the scenario were Peter is preaching to the Jews. You already know what they're supposed to know to the acts 17 scenario were called at Mars Hill and is preaching to a bunch of people who really have no frame of reference for God whatsoever right and witnessed by blue that caused me to change things to do ministry. Well, that you know you're really right about that week we have seen the increasing patronization of our culture even within our lifetimes. And it's a little bit staggering to consider when you reflect back and I I can remember being back in grade school and we sang all the Christmas hymns in public school and now I forget that set me, there's just barely get jingle bells, much less Silent Night but I mean this is yet so when you're looking at other passages saw the picture for us if you would because we mentioned, for example, Matthew 23, where the Lord is angry at the, the Pharisees and then also the passage of cleansing the temple, but how do you fill in the picture of Jesus anger because you mentioned to the millstone passage. Some of these other passages in Scripture when you look at some of those other passages. What is the fuller picture that you get about Jesus anger and what we should understand about is you mentioned he gets angry at religious people and they don't understand what what he's really all about. But what are some of the other passages that help us to see that fuller picture of Jesus anger on what other passages are all of the world, all of you hypocrites. At one point Janet at one point James and John, the Sons of thunder turned to Jesus who makes a man, Jesus, you are on earth, the lower upset and he should yeah I know microcredit I know they were upset and and I don't care there blind guide to the blind lead the blind following that doing that over and over and over again the issue you know that one of the other examples feeling on the I know you grieved by the hardness you look at them in anger and greed by the hardness of their heart is the same pattern struck me if I wrote the book. It's the same pattern of being angry leaders because they didn't get the idea that he was a doctor who came for the six and they thought that they were good enough to not need a Savior of the irony for me and all of this is one I really started the process as a current church leader. That's when things change for me because I instead of going the Pharisees are terrible.

There they told Jesus if I stop I might just take a look at my own church and my own life of my own attitudes within that paradigm of what made Jesus mad cause me to take a step back and okay maybe about things I need to work on dance the easiest thing in the world is to look at Matthew 20 think that those guys were really really bad and not be able to say when I my really really bad when a minor deserving of Jesus. Have you really gained any insight would you sang a personal level about things you might do not to be on the spot, but things you might do, or other Christians might do that would make Jesus mad.

And that's kind of convicting will be read little out there but you one had to write about was the issue of alcohol. And it's because I moved here from the Midwest and I came to Chicago, which is a highly Catholic area were 80% Catholic people in our in our area and I was taught that alcohol was and you know all there was to it and then I got appear as a very different attitude about it.

So what what we've done in some cases, especially from going to minister to my kids generation the millennial's in the younger generation.

They're not gonna put up with your throwing these extra rules on orders Jesus told the Pharisees adding burdens to them that they can't carry and you yourself will not lift a finger to help them. We gotta be careful about how we look at everything how we look at how we interpret the Old Testament and try to bring Old Testament rules into the New Testament like with Pat to work. You know, you name it. As we look at issues like alcohol. As we look at some of the some of them made up stuff coming.

We don't have the Mishnah but but we've done something in our own traditions in our own churches and we called and I have to recall them to go okay women I don't see that in Scripture. So you're adding to the you're making it harder for me and please don't hear me abdicating drinking on the thank you it's not in their so it shouldn't. It shouldn't be something that we've added it. If we do that well and you're making a really important point which is that you want people who don't know the Lord to hear the gospel and to be able to see who God is, clearly, and what Jesus has done for us and to not get caught up in the extraneous things to an unhealthy degree and why this is really important stuff to consider the name of the book is what made Jesus mad Tim Harlow with the senior pastor of perky Christian church.

Tenant was great to have you with us.

Thank you so much for joining us today on her right will God bless you, Tim. Thanks again for being here. Take care. Thank you for joining us on Janet Mefford today were at a time that was the next time last


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