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January 27, 2021 4:30 am
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We know where to go, you go to the Bible is God's word. But what about the ancient literature outside of the biblical canon that hurts to tell us or does tell us about Jesus is my next guest points out there is a very diverse and complex body of literature out there that's important to examine.
In light of current scholarly debates so we are joined today by Dr. Craig Evans.
He is a New Testament scholar and Justin was professor of Christian origins at Houston Baptist University as well as the author or editor of more than 90 books, including his latest, which is called Jesus and the manuscripts what we can learn from the oldest texts welcome Dr. Evans. It's great to have you with us about when you're discussing the subject of manuscripts as they relate to Jesus. I know you've got the Bible on the one hand, and then you have this ancient literature that claims to record Jesus's words and deeds want take a broad-based look at what's out there beyond just the biblical text to 1.5. Over the years passed me every time we talk about to go over the course golf holes in Gulfport right outside of the Bible always come up. So I will compose work" of the Bible on what grounds really exclude questions like that right okay once read them and you know we have in existence. A few of them that are pretty will all there. Some of them are just portions fragments of quotations. Every time students come back. The old man you I can see why they were included. Night and day. Nobody comes back whose will you will have to read the Gospel of Thomas. I really think it should be good.
Nobody ever says that I think it is good but it's more than that and seeing the contrast and so on.
We get a better idea of why the church did what it did why the Gospels we do have the New Testament were written the way they were written. There was a desire to give us a real Jesus, but Jesus, who walk around in the land of Israel. The gospel is useful in archaeological work. These other writings were written later want to give readers a different Jesus and he's not real you never walk the earth. Archaeologists understandably ignore them. So it's very helpful to study the use here references in pop culture sometimes to some of these extra biblical sources. The Gospel of Thomas being one of them. Let's talk a little bit about the Gospel of Thomas because people might have heard it before, but might not know much about it is that particular book. Who wrote it. I mean as far as that what we understand about it in totality and why didn't make it into the canon will lottery one of them never wanted to be in the canon.
That's what gets overlooked a lot of popular talk opening words of the gospel, these are the secret words of the living. Thomas wrote down. Well, okay, it's a secret. If you know anything about Cameron. You know the books that are canonical are books that are to be read aloud and shorebirds to books to be read publicly. This is stated over and over again by church fathers and canon list will gospel Thomas does not want to be read in public so it itself says hey I'm a part of the canon. What it really is is a commentary. That's what it wants to be when it presupposes the people heard publicly. Read Matthew Mark Luke John it wants to give a sort of an insiders deeper look into some truth it might not be found in Matthew Mark Luke John acts. The other thing the actual documents themselves. What we have we have three fragments of Greek, was found in Egypt.
There clearly not written out in a way to be read aloud there small cramped handwriting. One of them written on the back of some other document. It's for private study, not public reading/what makes it very clear. Thomas was never a contender for the canon right so this is one of the gnostic texts. So with the other Gnostic texts that circulate and people still see online today with a kinda have the same feel to them the same idea this gnosis, there's the secret knowledge that you can have this higher ideal that you can have that was all part of the gnostic heresy. You are absolutely they're all secret what it's always a private revelation. One disciple or maybe if you are off on a corner somewhere hiding in a house I'd be up on a mountain. Oftentimes Jesus appears to otherwise unknown disciples, Mary Bagley, in prep for example. Or maybe Philip already said Thomas and Jesus shows up mysteriously, privately, and have a whole new teaching and people say will have 20 never heard that before we you know Jesus was a public figure. Hundreds of people found the people heard him teach that his disciples wrote things down. Where is this coming from. And so it creates an alibi will actually use. It was a private meeting. It wasn't public. Jesus showed up in secret privately undisclosed new things that only the really mature disciples can understand. So that's that's the scenario that these later Gospels creek they have to because the public knows Jesus the public. Jesus never taught that the where is it coming from and that's how they explain it will be harder to verify as well would need some of these with the secret words only the people who were there, you know, secretly understood and heard and I mean when Jesus said that IE9 proclaim everything to you what I tell you, go out and tell in the day and tell off the rooftop and rooftops and so forth.
Jesus was very open.
Jesus was very consistent.
Obviously, and what he taught. But you know that the formation of the canon also was the fact that these letters, for example, the epistles would be an example of this. They circulated among the churches and lots and lots and lots of people read them and had the opportunity. It would seem to refute any errors because there were still people around who could refute some of those errors corrected. Another factor that will work really against these later writings ever making it into the canon was because other first century writings. You alluded to build some of the letters like Paul's letters he actually quotes the scene of the Last Supper in first Corinthians chapter 11 case in the words of institution. It's almost word for word the way it is in the gospel of Luke. We have things that Jesus said in the Gospels quoted paraphrase alluded to here, there, and other writings. While the stuff that got written in the second century of the third century. Nobody's alluding to any of it so it doesn't have any indirect endorsement either.
That's that's important points of this ancient literature exists that claims to record Jesus's words and deeds.
Besides, like the Gnostic Gospels.
How much is really out there. Well is a variety of things are about three dozen total Gospels or gospel like writings. I know in Dan Brown's book da Vinci code. Somebody said 80 or whatever it was that was way off, but you do have sayings attributed to Jesus. What we call Agro father not written down in the New Testament Gospels, but they are out and about people quote them or their inscribed stone sometimes read other texts even in magic tax.
Jesus became well-known very quickly and he had his reputation as a healer was very well known to so everybody wanted to happen to him. So I'm not surprised he shows up all over the place. He was a big deal. In fact, even in his during his public ministry, we have a story Mark tells it in Mark chapter 9 where two of his disciples say to Jesus master. We some guy who's not one of us not part of our following is casting out evil spirits in your name. We told them to stop and Jesus.
I don't know leave them alone. You know he's not against disease for us. That says something so here's somebody who's not actually one of the disciples who become so impressed by the power of Jesus's name, he's added to his own formulas, charms and recipes for trying to heal people when you see this beyond the Gospels right on into the second century.
Third century the synagogue Jews magic tax pagans.
Everybody is appealing to Jesus for help and I think that I think that shows you just how huge his reputation was right and solidifies the fact that there really was a Jesus. Not that that's and why doubt but you do have some scholars popping up now here and there will say Laura not even sure there was a historical Jesus that seems to refute that just what you said there all yell course the idea that he is really absurd.
I've debated some of these well-known medical assistance on it's the silliest thing in the world because for one nobody doubts that Paul wrote his letters right and so like Galatians, the first Corinthians. Those two letters in particular no doubt that the historical Paul person who wrote those letters because both of those letters, Paul referred James Jesus's brother will be right back. Dr. Craig Evan stay with us. Hi this is Janet Mefford when it comes to choice the ministry of pre-Moran offers the ultimate lifesaving choice by providing a free ultrasound to an abortion minded mother ought to introduce her to her pre-born baby and when she sees her baby on ultrasound and here's that baby's heartbeat in 8/10 cases that mom will choose life, that I got here how strong her Harvey was.
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That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to email@example.com. Thank you for your gift today and here's your host Joe welcome back. We are talking about Jesus and the manuscripts what we can learn from the oldest texts and with us today is Dr. Craig Evans, New Testament scholar and his fingers Prof. of Christian origins at Houston Baptist University. We are talking before the break. There Dr. Evans about the fact that when you see the body of ancient texts that make reference to Jesus and and the sayings of Jesus and so forth.
This would run up against some of the claims of modern scholars here and there whom I question whether or not there really was a historical Jesus, but you pointed out that there is other evidence for that as well. Well court just before break, I mentioned first Corinthians in Galatians 2 Paul's letters nobody doubts that the historical first century.
Paul wrote those letters and both of them.
He refers to Jesus as his own disciples he mentions Peter and John by name, but he also mentions James Jesus's brother and even skeptic Bart Ehrman says hey, this is overwhelming evidence that Jesus was a real person of history.
After all, if he didn't exist. You think his brother wouldn't know it seemed a little funny there but it's a real good point and so how in the world could Paul in the first century be you talking about Jesus's own disciples and family members and what he didn't exist. That doesn't make any sense and that's why historians of every stripe, whether they are Christians or not, whether they believe in God or not. Historians around the world have no doubt that there was a historical Jesus, who lived with the Bible talks about it right at the turn of the ear and his ministry was during the time of Pontius Pilate. Question about that these arguments that he did exist are really quite silly. They really are. You. It's hard for those of us who are not academics to keep up with all of the scholarship in the debate about the scholarship what you find is going on right now concerning discussion about ancient text. Are there any new controversies that have arisen. I know Bart Hermon is always good fodder for Christians to say what's a part urban say. Now we have to refute it, but what is taking place in terms of discussion about some of these texts in which your you know that your discussion in your book that is important for Christians to know about. Well, what one of them is that we just keep finding more tax and fragments of the New Testament. Of course what they had talked about 100 couple years ago. The fragment of Mark chapter 1 and I have a beautiful photograph of it might be the first time in color. Beautiful photograph of it in my book and it just more evidence that it's very early, it could be second century, which would make it by far the earliest fragment of the gospel market, we have what happens is some people say well why can't we just look at what we have and publish everything but the Janet we have over 400,000 pages of papyrus from antiquity.you published the stuff you studied some of it is very hard to read and we try to figure it out. We can transcribe it. We try to translate it. We try to discuss it. We try to date it. It takes time and hundreds of these are being published every single year in some years, maybe even more than a thousand but just do the math it's gonna take centuries to finish the job actually go working through that stuff from time to time we realize, oh my goodness. We have the text. The page from one of Paul's letters.
It's a page.
One of the Gospels were always finding stuff.
Occasionally we find something that's one of these outside the Bible type documents and that creates a lot of interest to archaeology. Keep digging stuff up more discoveries continue to be made so this this is why this continues. This is why we can have this kind of conversation every year from now to the end of time. Credible source hundred thousand pages that have yet to be published are these for the most part, are these fragments all just little pieces are there some intact pages that we still haven't learned about actually mostly intact pages.
I mean sometimes it is just a small portion of the page, but in some cases it's a few pages still together, but in most cases, a single sheet it's most of the page written on one side, sometimes written on both sides. A lot of it's what we called documentary that is the documents, letters, business papers, Imperial business stuff like that but some of its literature and all the literature. Some of it is biblical and that's the part that gets us all excited so you know, the work continues. More discoveries will be made. We have 139 fiery fragments now texts of the of the Greek New Testament when I went to seminary. The number was one half that. That's all.
It just shows you that I'm not that old. You know 20 years from now will be talking about €160 and on it goes. Discoveries continue to be made whether so many to put out there when he speeded up. I'm curious. I love it when people say about God.
What if economics is part of it. Not too many people who are willing to put in several years of training to get really good at something that pays very little that the problem is like archaeology 101 we got there, did more will people volunteered to pay their own way paid money for the privilege of being at the dig site today and then move tons of earth over a period of two, three, four weeks, that they'll get paid anything that basically are your paying your way into servitude for for a month, but that's what it takes to do archaeology when you know what working through these proprietary it's about the same way and so it's hard work and there's not much financial reward in that part of Japanese and big donors to step up and help out in that realm because that's that's important stuff to get out there yet. One thing Dr. Evans that you address and there's so much that you get into in the book. People need to readmit you talk about secret Mark.
Now I don't know how many listeners have ever even heard of secret Mark but you've talked about this is likely a forgery.
What should we know about secret Mark you complicated people here almost make you go cross Morton Smith deceased. Now I died 1991, a longtime professor, Columbia, New York. He claims that he found it at Mark Szabo monastery of the Judean desert in 1958 what one of the that he found this is what confuses people. He found something written in the back of an old book. The book itself based on the 1600s and three blank pages you know the endpapers typically at the back of the book someone had written out in hand Greek about 2 1/2 pages that it supposedly a letter of Clement of Alexandria letter that would've been written in the year 220 or something obviously climate that right at the back of a book printed in the 1600s. So somebody had copied it and from a later time. The question is, is this an authentic letter of Clement the however you explain it ended up copied in the back of this book will, in this letter of Clement Clement talks about a longer secret version of the gospel of Mark. That's what makes it controversial if it was just a I don't think anybody care but is talking about a different addition of Mark and of course it's got some stuff that that's a little edgy just Jesus meeting with the disciple who you know a young man whose nude teaching is some kind of new insight into the kingdom and Morton Smith himself was gay a lot out of this suggested that maybe there were some very questionable sexual rights going on in the early church see why that was extremely controversial. How are there a lot of problems with this and some something that Morton Smith broke the text out himself. I wouldn't put it past that's just a strange thing when it diverges so clearly from the body of the canyon. I mean, I know eggs that are pretty easy thing to look at and say and this is this is for I talk about it.
One half of a very long chapter that talks about this and some other salacious kind of material including the gospel of Jesus wife fiasco that turned out to be a Ford forgery also. But the reason I'm really bothered with this supposed letter by Clement of Alexandria, the secret Mark.
He talks about is it sound so modern he talks about not all truth is true to true truth, that there will Janet that's perspectivism that emerged in the late 19th century nobody talk like that in antiquity there is not one example from the past out of millions of words that we now have one computer concert of any ancient writer saying true truth. Nobody would talk that way. And then there some other factors and at the very suspicious and sound like somebody who wrote this was familiar with Oscar Wilde, when his insulin to play the dance of the seven veils. I mean, it gets really weird so that's why most dollars won't touch it and regard it with a high degree of suspicion. I'm glad that you're educating this distance. I certainly don't want to react. I'm glad you're reading it for. I spent well it's just such a great block and you can get a hold of it. Jesus in the manuscripts.
What we can learn from the oldest text by Dr. Craig Evans at Houston Baptist University and I were really excited about the book. I just want to ask a couple more questions before we have to go but ultimately what would you say we can learn from the oldest texts on Dr. Evans ultimately why is that important for us to understand the role of these oldest texts and and what we can learn from them because we know the Bible. What we can learn from number one we have a whole lot of we have a lot of old tracks the text itself, the Greek New Testament, which gives us are of course our New Testament in whatever modern language, it's a stable text so we can have confidence. We know that we have a lot of manuscripts there very old, the Texas stable were not left wondering what did Jesus really say what did he really do or what did Paul really right in his letters.
There is no mystery there and so what we can have confidence that you don't need to be frightened.
You don't need to thank all my goodness somebody has messed with text up will never know what the apostles really said that is not the way it is. Thought that's what of the bottom line is people should have confidence that the text of the New Testament is stable. We got great witnesses.
There's nothing to worry about have the stuff that's not in the New Testament.
Left Canon real good reasons why that stuff was left outside the canon for people to know well again the name of the book is Jesus, and the manuscripts.
Dr. Craig Evans with us and so good to talk to Dr. Evans.
It was just great to have you here. Thank you, thank you very much.
Take care God bless you for today broadcast his proximate hearth. I finally for five dollars you can send one vital to a Christian call 800 guests were 800 password this archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby.
That's 855-402-2229 or Janet Mefford.com Janet Mefford today and here's your host Joe Mefford. There has been no shortage of turmoil in the aftermath of the presidential election, but one of the biggest concerns that millions of conservative voters half going forward is whether or not they'll ever have confidence again in our election system and that is why major changes need to be implemented in order to restore faith in voting. My next guest has now introduced the save democracy act to try to rectify the serious problems in the system and also to put some common sense safeguards around our elections in the future, and this is especially important as Democrats are pushing for the passage of HR one also called before the people act which we do huge damage to our election integrity working get some thoughts on all of this now from Indiana Congressman Jim Banks, who serves as chairman of the Republican study committee Smith, thank you so much for being with us what you hearing from voters about their loss of confidence in voting and how did that lead to what you're proposing now in the save democracy act will that's the bottom line right up crisis point in America were nearly half of all Americans have lost trust in our elections process and if we don't do something about it. I believe were going to have real real problems moving forward as the elections are the underpinning of our democratic process and that what happened in November whether or not you believe the election was stolen.
Whether you whether you adopt some of the rhetoric of some have about about election fraud. That's rhetoric. By the way that I've never used.
The problem that does exist, is how some of these states conducted their elections back in November greatly diminish the public's trust in our elections will I mean by that.
On election night when so many Americans went to bed and there was one outcome that they were staring out on TV and then I woke up the next morning with a different outcome. They saw some states stop counting ballots in the middle of the night, but continue counting ballots for days or weeks after election day. That's a recipe that's a bad recipe for America to lose trust in a process that we need to trust and that we need to work to secure our our democracy for four for a long time to come. So that's why 30 of my colleagues and I wrote the save our democracy act. There are a number of components to the map you talk about that but generally three key areas of first and foremost we say that once you start counting ballots. You can't stop.
Secondly, we were required a greater security with voter identification. This is common sense, but if it if you if you we require idea for someone to purchase alcohol, which require IDs for someone to go to the ballot box and present before they vote, and then add on top of that we also require that at least two representatives of each campaign of a federal election be allowed in the room when the when the ballots are being counted. This was an issue that happened in some states like Pennsylvania aware where were representatives of the campaigns were allowed to be in the room and again that's a that's a part of the bad recipe here that were trying to correct its people were really thrown by then. I think it was in Georgia that was one of the videos that came out where you had Republicans trying to observe the vote tallying and they were capped yards and yards and yards away and a lot of normal Americans were watching the same.
How does this happen.
We've been having elections forever. When did we suddenly become a country that puts up with this and when did we get another opposing party who doesn't step in as well and say for the sake of election integrity. Come on you guys lets get it together here that many people in my my district in northeast Indiana who talk about the selection being unlike any election of their lifetime not talk about my my grandma I'm talking about both seniors in my community that lived through that incredible history of this country for four generations and understand that this election was conducted in a way that was altogether different from every other election in their lifetime.
It was because of it was because of the pandemic was because good in some states, you had Gov. secretaries of state election boards and other judges changing the election rules right before election day, and the Constitution is very clear that this election rules, especially in determining the electors to the electoral college on behalf of the state are subject, for up to approval by the state legislature people to you and I elect for community to get our statehouses there that want to have the authority to decide how elections are conducted. But in this case, all of that was thrown out the window to create a bad recipe that is something that I like.
Like I said before this word it right.
Crisis point. If we don't if we don't do something about this now. In past legislation in the Congress that like the save democracy act of state legislatures don't go back and review some of these these rules that I'm I'm scared about what our elections are to look like the false I'm very concerned about it especially getting HR one and I don't know how many people really are on top of what is in this particular piece of legislation. They are really moving forward with this quickly.
That's one of their top priorities on the Democrat leadership site. This is something for example that would allow individuals to vote without an ID that would permit online voter registration that isn't tied to an existing state record like a driver's license while working hard on the conservative side to try to assure election integrity. It seems the Democrats are working just as hard to make sure that they keep integrity. You know from being part of the process and how you can work through this sort of issue that HR one is a dangerous path forward the Democrat and the first time Democrats have introduced their version of HR one, but by the way, when we do HR wanted me to. Democrats have designated this legislation. Their very top priority in the Congress and HR one this year is the same as HR 12 years ago. I remind people all the time that when they introduce HR 12 years ago that was before COBIT 19 I it's a piece of legislation that really does change the election rules to soup to support Democrats over Republicans on election day and age when HR one would do and we've done two years ago just like us designed to do now is to move all states toward all mail-in ballots and and this is where you were to go down the slippery slope of of opening to do open opening the door to the types of problems that we experience last November, but in this case to be nationwide, not just in states like Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona soreceived a lot of attention for these types of issues. But what on top of that the Democrats in HR one in their in their bill have added DC statehood. What why would they do that because they were given two more Democrat senators in the United States Senate. I tipping the balance there. It would it would open the door to a lot of other causes that have nothing to do with election security and integrity would do just the opposite right in this kind of hogtied the state's ability to run election since even the ones that are trying to do it properly. Yes, and that's what we try to do with the save democracy act we try to take the exact opposite approach, recognizing the states run the election state should have authority and autonomy when it comes to conducting their elections. Now we do in the same save democracy, act of public a study committee nights 2/week.
We do address these issues related to federal elections as related to choosing electors to the electoral college that's best. But that's the nexus and the difference would Democrats wait, is that what the federal government take over elections in the states to take all the authority where from the states and push them toward reforms would tilt the balance helping Democrats went on election day and say Republicans it's a it's a shame it's a shameful move on their part that point, word word trust elections is already an all time low.
This was sent over the cliff even further. Right now, in talking to some of your colleagues. Do you have any support on the Democrat side. Clearly we know the priorities of the Democrat leadership that, but what is what is what is the likelihood that you can get any kind of bipartisan effort going here.
Yes, sadly made it very bad news but HR one passed out of the house last time this I expect it will pass out of the house again. This time the big question that the big elephant in the room is whether or not the Senate can maintain the filibuster and what about Mitch McConnell's 50 seat Senate minority can block measures like HR one for moving forward and that that's all going to hinge on whether or not they throw the filibuster out the door. Whether or not some conservative Democrats in the Senate recognize the granting DC statehood is unconstitutional and whether or not some of the other provisions of HR one would be bad for a country to buy the way another another area were HR one takes a dangerous path forward is is public financing of elections. So if Democrats get their way. If you're conservative you will be financing the campaigns of figures like Bernie Sanders with tax dollars that's what that's what we can't let that we can't let that move forward to destroy the fabric and trust our elections even further. Absolutely we need to get on the phone and let our voices be heard in Washington and Jim Banks for the Republican study committee, thank you so much Congressman for being with us and for your hard work greatly with you. All right you take care will this is Janet Mefford for Bible league international Mabel walks 18 miles to church every Sunday. She lives in Zimbabwe where churches are widely scattered in remote regions of this African country. That's one reason why she travels so far the other reason she walks 9 miles each way is that the gospel has truly captured her heart after coming to faith in Jesus Christ. Mabel reads and studies her Bible and she's discovered that the gospel is meant to be shared with others.
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He had one of them asked Rance I've heard in a long time and he put up a constitutional point of order concerning the impeachment trial, the ridiculous impeachment trial coming up at the beginning of February February 8, of Pres. Trump former Pres. I don't like calling him former Pres. Trump but he is former Pres. Trump, the Senate voted on the constitutional point of order and as Sen. Paul said senators agreed that this sham of a trial is unconstitutional and that is more than will be needed to acquits and to eventually end this partisan impeachment process. This trial is dead on arrival in the Senate. What a colossal waste of time. Now would you like to know the five Republicans who joined Democrats to kill Sen. Paul's point of order.
I bet you can guess to some of them are, but I'll tell you who they are. Susan Collins Lisa Murkowski mitt Romney to me and Ben's sacks there you have it and I think there were so many good points that he brought up. It's about an eight minute rant and it is well worth your time to listen to the whole thing. I don't have time here right now to be able to play for you, but basically he was making the point that impeaching a former president, a private citizen obviously is the antithesis of unity you don't have the Chief Justice presiding over the Senate trial which is ridiculous. Where is the constitutional power to impeach somebody who's already been removed from office because the new president was sworn in.
The accused here is already left office and he talked about being in a gutter of rancor and vitriol, the likes of which we've never seen in our nation's history. Welcome to the modern left folks and the best part of it was when he brought up the fact that there have been many Democrats who actually could be accused credibly of inciting people to violence. For example, he brought up Bernie Sanders did remember that shooting the baseball game. No Democrat as he said will honestly ask whether Bernie Sanders incited the shooter that nearly killed Steve Scalise and the volunteer coach. The shooter nearly committed a massacre because he fervently believed Bernie Sanders rhetoric that the Republican health care plan for the uninsured is that you die, which was never true. Clearly Bernie Sanders was impeach what about Cory Booker calling for his supporters to get up in their face, referring to Republicans. What about Maxine Waters. He said no Democrat will ask whether Maxine Waters incited violence when she literally told her supporters to confront Trump officials in public and he made what I think was a very, very important point. He said Republicans never thought it would be legitimate to use the government to hold these Democrats responsible for and teeth and other kinds of leftists committing violence.
They never even consider doing something so gross. The heat and use the regress, but I'm using the word gross so hats off to you Sen. Paul. This is kind of along the lines of what representative Jim Jordan set a couple of days ago… And this got me thinking about this that the fundamental issues. How do you incite a riot that was already point how do you incite a riot that went. When the breach happened before the president completed his speech. How do you incite a riot when the president said peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. This is ridiculous. So you have been lack of due process. The fact that his left office in the fact that he was engaging in constitutionally protected speech and specifically told rally goers peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard, which is what you're supposed to do in this great country that is first amended liberties that is basic freedom so this this whole case is ridiculous. The country knows that what they're scared of is this… Threatening to the present and future. This is about making sure he can't run you can't running in 2020. That's what they're afraid of because this president when he was president did more of what he said he would do than any president in our lifetime and – that is something the American people appreciate what you going to do. Go do what you told me to go do what I like to you to do that so present. Trump did and that's when the Democrats are afraid of Spot on right on the money now. This is very interesting. I mentioned the fact that of those five Republicans who join the Democrats to table Sen. Paul's very important point of order among those five were Ben's sass now II bring up Ben's sass because I don't happen to be a fan of Ben sass. I'm really not a fan of Ben sass, now it's stronger than that.
I think Ben says should be primary next time around. And I think you need to get someone who's actually good for the state of Nebraska to come in and take his place. I actually think there are number of people who need to be primary. The next time around. So, better people can serve in Congress, then these people are in the Senate so let's turn just for a couple of minutes. I don't want to belabor the point, because frankly I'm sick of the subject, but it's worth telling you that good old Russell Moore is finding his mojo again, Russell Moore, who's been put on ice during the Trump administration because Pres. Trump thought he was a nasty guy with no hearts and he was right about that had nothing to do for the last four years, but for some odd reason the Southern Baptists paid his salary. We don't how much it is Katie's salary is the president of the ethics and religious liberty commission to do things like do nothing when the pandemic and all of its tyrants came along and said churches had to stay close. Now you would think a guy with the name ethics and religious liberty commission president would actually step up and try to help some of these churches now heating care is listening to country music and putting up podcasts and talking about anything and everything except what the church needed him to do so.
In my view, we should have gotten rid of him from the head of the Aral Sea pretty much the day he was put in the office, but I've been I've been telling you about this guy for what is in seven years.
Now for 2014 was when I started talking about the fact that Russell Moore really shouldn't be in that position so I'm clear to see more people are realizing this time magazine noted this nauseating and I do mean nauseating peace. Somewhere in there he is sitting in his office and he's just looking so cool and look imposing in his chair, gave me a break and they talk about the fact that the past few years have not been an easy time to be God's lobbyist all right right. He's God's lobbyist goes on to have this they talk about the whole issue of the impeachment trial, and as you may know, it was just recently that Russell Moore was calling for Trump to be impeached, and he incited this insurrection and it said many Christian leaders and thinkers decried the attack on the capital, but few went as far as more he laid the blame squarely at the feet of a man many evangelicals believe to be their hero. Pres. Trump and Moore wrote this week we watched an insurrection of domestic terrorists incited and fomented by the president of the United States.
He called them to the rally. He goes on this long grandson. I really agree with Dr. Rob Gagnon who said the person we really need to impeach is Russell Moore here, here, Dr. Gagnon, I agree with you but listen to this quote from Russell Moore. It's he's talk about his stance. It's it's been a lonely. The other two. It's in this quote it's been lonely, but I think many people have experienced that sort of loneliness over the past four or five years. I don't know a single family that's not been divided over Pres. Trump and politics. Generally, I don't know a single church that hasn't been seen hanging out with Danny. I got Moore's opinions are not new. He's been, and never Trump or since at least 2015 and scoffs at the notion put forward by many evangelical leaders that Trump converted to Christianity.
Just before being elected okay he says it now is on opposite position that I find rational while you know anybody can question anybody salvation can't that Russell marked the usually mild-mannered author stance has come at a cost.
He says both he and his family have been the subject of threats and that people have tried to dig up information that would prove he is a liberal heaven forfend. Okay, let me give you a little piece of advice. Time magazine since you guys are drowning in progressivism over there. When all the conservatives who really are bona fide conservatives put their ears stop at something this guy says and many things that this guy says and said some sums wrong here. If all the conservatives are having that reaction. He's probably not a real conservative is a real conservative would act like one. This is going back to the Lord's command that when you're to examine somebody you should examine his fruit, and we been looking at the fruit and the fruit is and I like to say you have this little group who are all kind of the same ilk, Russell Moore, Ben sass, David French, I kinda make a joke sometimes and I say Russell Moore is just the Ben sass of David French.
Israel makes it up as a David French is the Ben sass of this is the same kind of cabal all they do is sit around and preen and act like they are holier than you, and maybe they are, but that's really offensive when you are constantly looking down your nose at God's people.
Jesus never did that and he actually had the right with you. Think about it, to talk about his own holiness being better than ours because it certainly was. It's perfect. These guys are just insufferable there insufferable and I really hope that the Southern Baptists as time continues along here will come to their senses about their leadership because there are just a lot of people in the southern Baptist convention business leading God's people in the southern Baptist convention. So I keep saying it, need to wake up Southern Baptists not being represented well. Thank you for being with us on Janet Mefford today. God bless you will see next time this hour has been brought to you by pre-born help us save 300 babies lives by the end of January through the gift of one free ultrasound. $28 seems one line call now 855402 baby 554-0222 29 Janet Mefford.com