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Janet - Mefferd - Today - JD Hall (FBC Naples) Tom Atema (Heart for Lebanon)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
November 5, 2019 9:00 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - JD Hall (FBC Naples) Tom Atema (Heart for Lebanon)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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November 5, 2019 9:00 am

First Baptist Church of Naples, Florida, is calling for a new vote to hire an African-American pastor amid accusations of member racism and compromised election integrity. But some members say the story's not true and claim the church is threatening and even ejecting them. What's really going on? I'll discuss it with pastor and blogger J.D. Hall. Plus: Ex-Christian Joshua Harris says - with no irony! - that Trump voters are damaging the gospel and the church. We'll discuss that and more on Tuesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.


This archived broadcast of Janet met for today is brought to you by Tri-Star pictures. A beautiful day in the neighborhood based on the true story of a beautiful day in the neighborhood, starring Tom Hanks and Matthew Reese rated PG parental guidance suggested in theaters November 22, our confidence is in Christ alone. I know another Southern Baptist can mention story today but it's really important that I get to this one.

I know yesterday we talked quite a bit about Al Mohler to be nominated as the next president of the SBC and Russell Moore and Karen swallow prior in the seminaries. There's just so much going on in the SBC but this is a really big story to someone spend a little bit of today show talking about it. It involves a church in Naples Florida first Baptist Church of Naples, Florida, and you might've heard about this story there was a vote taken recently on a new pastor. His name is Marcus Hayes he's a leader of Biltmore church in Asheville, North Carolina.

He is African-American and they were apparently very excited at the church to be able to potentially bring on the staff and African-American senior pastors so they took about 19% of the congregation voted against him. Now, you need an 85% vote to approve the pastor only 81% voted for him so he didn't get across the finish line.

He wasn't able to become senior pastor. The problem came after the vote, when the church came out and basically said the members who did not vote for Marcus Hayes were racists and everybody said what how do you know there racists there were not there.

There is no evidence, necessarily that they're putting out there showing that these people racists are joined in any white supremacy groups or anything like that. What is really going on. Then you started having some of these blog service with emails from members of the church who said no, no, we were actually more concerned about some of his political and theological views.

We were concerned about things like meeting the qualifications that the church said the senior pastor has to have about experience and how big your church is and things like that which we had some legitimate concerns. Now it's just getting completely out of control at what do I mean by that. Well, the church now says it wants to take Ariz out how unprecedented this is, but they're going forward with this and a lot of details are coming out about what's going on at this church, and none of it is sound very good, but I want to play for you. The comments from the chairman of the pastoral search committee. This happened on Sunday or maybe it was Saturday talking about the Revo. This is a man by the name of Neil Doral. He is the chairman of the pastoral search committee and I'm just can play in succession the cuts of what he had to say. I'm gonna react to them a little bit.

So let's go with one you church I want to thank you first for the overwhelming support of Pastor Marcus Hayes and his family last weekend you will be surprised to know, following the announcements that over 450 emails were received and directed to the church in support of Pastor Marcus in just the last four to know what stood up to me out to me about that was the fact that he said 450 emails were received or directed to the church. How many of them were internal and how many of them were external because we got a problem in the Southern Baptist convention of being really woken really probed social justice and pushing the critical race theory and all these sorts of intersection alley themes. On average, Southern Baptist. These people are left as they're pushing the Southern Baptist convention into more of a leftward direction. So what is that prove if you got 450 emails but most of them were external and coming from who knows Gospel coalition supporters.

I mean, does that mean anything he hasn't really get into any details. There's got to all the necessary votes were short, your senior pastor search committee met this past Tuesday and determine the following.

First, Marcus Hayes is a highly respected and a well-qualified pastor remains the man that we believe God is called to be our second lien and I might add.

Unfortunately, the integrity of our election last week and was compromised to members of the counting committee have admitted to leaking confidential early voting results from Saturday night to a lay leader in this church. We then use that information. We believe the compromise the process okay well if you did have leaking of what was supposed to be confidential, voting, and that is a problem, but some of the other stuff he had to say I think was more of a problem when you look at the overall picture what's going on. This is Third your pastor search committee has been assured by the deacon leadership pastoral staff and all the related leadership. The disciplinary action towards church members who have violated our church covenant by causing dissension disruption and spreading of misinformation had been taken and are underway okay what oh what will will will will all right a few questions I have about this. I was looking on the church website for any reference to a church covenant because that can go a couple of different ways.

I understand that there covenants that are used that are in the Baptist hymnal that are related to church conduct when there are some sorts of divisions how you handle it how you approach people and that sort of thing. But there are also membership covenants as we know used by people like Mark Deborah nine marks and they're all in favor of having membership covenants which is basically a legal agreement that is all in the church's favor. Not in the favor necessarily of the church member.

So I don't know which kind of covenant.

These people were signing but I find this extremely problematic you're just disciplining and throwing people out of the church for dissension and for disruption but you're not bringing these people before the congregation to put them through a fair trial, might I also say and I'm not trying to be mean about this but this is the same man who, according to the Naples press from years ago back in 2009, the Naples daily news had pointed out that this very man you here. Speaking was arrested in October 2001, on charges of racketeering conspiracy in a big scandal involving a project called Stadium Naples. He received three years probation and a $10,000 find a find of guilty was withheld, but you think he of all people would want to have due process for people seems a little weird to me right. Let's go on. Listen to the next. Got to be absolutely clear, though church leadership does not believe that all voted no. Did so based on race, but it is undeniable that race played a part in the final days leading up to the selection, how do you know that if you had a secret ballot vote. How would you know what the inner workings of the minds of people who cast a vote at First Baptist Church Naples had in mind is the people who were talking about some of these extraneous issues with Marcus Hayes. Things like whether or not he actually met the requirements that the church laid out whether or not his support for books like woke church by Eric Mason or his tweets about, Harris pro-abortion Democrat who wants to be president of the United States were relevant pieces of information to consider as to whether or not that's an appropriate fit for him as a pastor with them as a congregation you know some of them were racist but you know some of them were how do you know that as you would have to know the mind of every single person who voted no. How would you possibly be exposed to that information doesn't really say your muscles and cut five. In addition, this committee would like to sign with those same leaders that racism has no part in the body of Christ and never more so let's good virtue singling and there shouldn't be any racism but unfortunately you failed to prove to the congregation of the rest of us that racism really was going on here because the members who are being thrown out are contesting that so who's telling the truth one more cut cut six finally and thank you for that. We are hopeful that in the days ahead. Marcus Hayes will allow his name to be reconsidered as our next senior pastor or interim pastor. During the weeks ahead, we will continue to seek the Lord in his guidance as we take the next steps we remain dependent on your player. Players respectfully your senior pastor search committee. Thank you very much and we do thank you and your committee for all that you've done your homework will one word from tonight to thanks change change the way we change that is the gospel why I had to throw that it gets. It was just such the perfect the perfect ending to that weird announcement change the way we change that is the gospel. Now that's not the gospel change the way we change is not the gospel.

The gospel is first Corinthians 15, the doing and dying of Jesus Christ to put away our sins and to reconcile us to a holy God. Things are weird little bits at first Baptist Naples. There's more to talk about that were to do that when we come back and listening to Jana for today. Stick around beautiful day in the neighborhood based on the true story of the real-life friendship between Fred Rogers I am a cynical journalist showing kindness and love broken people is maybe caned no matter when this is the end of the story of a young mom who plan to end her pregnancy but chose life after visiting a pre-born center pre-born steps into the lives of hurting young women who were being told that a pre-born baby is not a life pre-born is the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the country and the direct answer to Planned Parenthood helping young moms choose life.

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Mercy ships has an urgent need for pediatric registered nurses will be joining dozens of volunteer medical professionals blessed by the opportunity to get more information by visiting mercy mercy ships bringing hope and healing to the world's forgotten back to Jennifer today we are talking about the very disturbing events taking place right now at First Baptist Church of Naples, Florida. The church is pastoral search committee put forward Marcus Hayes, an African-American pastor is there choice for senior pastor that he didn't receive enough votes to come on staff meeting the church to blame the dissenters decision on racism even though it has offered no hard evidence that that was the case. In fact, dissenters have said they were concerned about other issues regarding Hayes, including his theological and political views and also his lack of appropriate credentials for the job. Now the church says it wants to do a revote on Hayes.

Will this be a turning point in the war between Southern Baptist conservatives and the social justice left. Well, the Reformation Charlotte and pulpit and pen blogs have been doing a lot of good work on this story and have received quite a bit of insider information from members of this church in JD Hall is joining us on our pulpit and pen, pastor of Fellowship Baptist Church in Sydney Montana which withdrew from the Southern Baptist convention just last year, and JD, thanks for being with us you will let's start with this charge by FDC Naples church leadership, which stated that a portion of the 19% who did not vote for Marcus Hayes did so based on racial prejudices is that a true statement. Well from what we can see from the email will receive within the church, not a true statement or denying it explicitly, but as the church itself worshiping the church leadership search committee made the statement or the allegation of race were convicted without the data without any type of initiation.

The they didn't provide any type of specific information regarding race and racism, and in the email we received that the church that out sort of excommunicating the members who voted against the they didn't make any specific accusation of grace to them directly, either publicly or privately that they cared State Street that accusation, that's really strange and I know that they talked about this when they spoke about this this church chairman who headed up the pastoral search committee spoke about this issue and said they're dealing with some of these members who were, you know, causing dissent and so forth. But it was all very vague and and a lot of questions that I have had have pertaining to how the church could discipline or or excommunicate people from First Baptist Church Naples without bringing all of those charges before the congregation, Allah, Matthew 18. That seems awfully weird.

The Lord is very clear in Matthew 18 point taking something directly to an individual directly taking a witness or two orbits in the case of an elder pastor through three with substantially better vision and then to the church with the student to excommunicate certain of the 19% who voted against market pastor was done by the vision of sort of an executive fiat by the deacon body a letter to them without even giving them an opportunity to explain their cells or their concerns or what the issue was and and today and yesterday we found out have received excommunication letters, who actually voted for Marcus Hayes but who stuck up for those who did not listen. They're not racist. They have these concerns over here in relation to social justice and some political matters. It's not race. They've been threatened as well. None of that was done through the church body and then they made the decision. The announcement to have a vote, another vote after having excommunicate members who didn't vote the way they wanted the wild. That's really bad, you know, here's one of my main questions as well.

Do we know how this vote was taken because generally speaking from my experience when you are voting on something as important as the next pastor it's done by secret ballots.

So if you had 19% of the church members saying they did not want Marcus Hayes and the church has determined that there racist. Some of them weren't, but some of the more how would they even know if you not supposed to know how anybody voted by name I mean they would know about. Perhaps a group of people who are on emails but do we know how the vote was even taken such that they could make a broad claim that this was racially based. Well all know I don't know how the vote was taken, but we do know why they made the statement that was initially put out. You think her own church are right that we know this because of the campaign that started a few days prior to the vote in relation to email him and phone calls. We have email in question that was sent out to the church. So what they're alleging to be racism week we have a copy of that post it Reformation Charlotte and what that email is that they have concerns over his support. Or so it seems on Twitter overcome all your credit candidate for for the presidency on the Democratic ticket is a pro-choice candidate that would be a concern for a lot of people who that your Eric Mason's book woke church and a few other things including you said onstage that same-sex attraction was not a step and so we've seen the concerns of the church members who they have excommunicated and race play a part in that.

What so ever. Well this is really concerning. I think especially in light of what the SBC did just a few months ago at its annual meeting. They are now on this track where they want to disfellowshipped churches that they have deemed racist. They want to have this permanent credentials committee that will investigate claims of racism and sexual abuse in things like this. How do you see what is going on at First Baptist Church in Naples, coinciding with the broader woke themes of the SBC regarding racism and going after churches that run afoul of the social justice track made the credentials committee to begin investigating churches throughout who are appearing to be racist. That was instigated by pastor by the name Dwight, one of the most liberal Southern Baptist pastors possibly imagine you were before or after the so-called conservative research and so the idea was we were going to investigate churches that we deem to be racist and remove them from the Southern Baptist convention to fast-track that process Dwight because it was the first one on Twitter after the statement was put out by the church leadership that the boat was in part at least racist against market failures.

Dwight McKissick was the first one on Twitter to save this church should be kicked out of the Southern Baptist convention so that decision made with the credentialing committee seems to now be paid back in the sport church and the church had to act to remove those so-called racist church member so that they're not removed from the convention.

Now here's the threat and the problem. The issue is if these 20% of the church. I think that number is probably higher now because from what I'm hearing a lot of work disgruntled that their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ been treated this way brother churches leadership.

Even those who voted for. If there is an exodus out of out of that church into another church in the area and that church receives them. And let's say most of the people from First Baptist Church Naples go to. Just as an example Second Baptist Church medical and they receive them in, it's very likely then that the SBC credentialing committee will be looking at that church as suspect for quote unquote harboring the race that would make another church hesitant to receive those church members into their body. Under the threat and fear of what's happening with critical race theory in the southern Baptist. This is getting really bad. Well, not only this, but we have the president of the Southern Baptist convention.

JD Greer pending a letter recommending Marcus Hayes, is that a conflict of interest stemming is Iago had absolutely. Not only that a conflict of interest, but that it terrible.

Paul was speaking of the Baptist 38 years and and and 37 years of Southern Baptist.

It is very inappropriate to give a letter of recommendation or endorsement on Southern Baptist convention letterhead endorsing the specific candidate sitting on the executive board of the SBC with JD Greer. This is what you call crony yeah and so issuing the letter of endorsement in which members of the pulpit committee of the kind of expected you would think to do what the Southern Baptist convention president would want them to do right and would think a minute, both from the outside looking in on the search committee and the ongoing pastors. The church staff were still present at First Baptist Church Naples are more concerned with pleasing JD Greer and pleasing Southern Baptist belief in the order with pleasing the members in the pew members of that actual local manifestation of the body of Christ in terms of Baptist quality that that's a no-no church if you want to operate know it's a very top-down, it seems very forceful, very intimidating to a lot of Southern Baptist and Southern Baptists are supposed to be autonomous mean, this is not the Baptist Vatican coming down but we that's not the kind of polity.

This Baptist convention has historically endorsed. It's awful what you think this says JD about the broader problem of the woke church that seems to be growing within the Southern Baptist convention is more churches like your church left yet and I'd like to remind everybody that when our church where spokesman for Yaro. The report that they had never heard of any church complaining over social rights of their head-to-head has been in the sand that was open a year and 1/2 ago will go through spreading and we see it spreading because even in this boat at First Baptist Church Naples.

They brought in the young people good at that age to vote. There are 16 they pushed out the millennial boat college students, high school students.

That's why it was a record attendance. We see the seminaries pushing this idea and essentially where I see it going out with if were carried away by painful loss you not to do caution. Chapter 2 verse eight, and we adopt critical race theory which says we should focus on the color of someone's skin and their specific identity group and were not finding our identity in Jesus Christ alone that will not cause racial unity that will cause racial vision and so the most ironic part of all is because the search committee which focused on. It seems in my opinion, the color of this man's skin from video that has been released, and so forth are not used. Now it looks like a 20% of the church is being excommunicated.

The church will probably be split into financially emerging now in the church is being torn apart in the name of what in the name of unity is not unity built on Christ.

Now, it certainly is not. It's a very disturbing story but very important to follow the details pulpit PennDOT or JDs blog is where you can find more information.

JD really appreciate what you doing I think serving with us what you are eating here will be back content. This archived broadcast of Janet effort today is brought to you by Tri-Star pictures. A beautiful day in the neighborhood based on the true story. A beautiful day in the neighborhood, starring Tom Hanks and Matthew Reese rated PG parental guidance suggested in theaters November 22 for today and I just want to thank each and everyone of you who participated in our recent campaign to help the great ministry hard for Lebanon. The Lord is using them to provide food and survival essentials in Christian education in the refugee camps of Lebanon were so many refugees have been fleeing to live in tents, settlements, and best of all. So many of these dear ones are coming to know the Lord and then they are coming together to worship him regularly and through your generosity.

We were able to both meet and exceed our goal way exceed our goal to help these precious people who are in such dire straits there in the Lebanon tent settlements were so grateful for hard for Lebanon. By the way, the number 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 I gifted just $0.98 a day or $29 a month will help a family of six.

Get food and survival essentials in Christian education for a whole year. So if you haven't had a chance to call yet.

Do it now. 888-247-5499 or there's a banner to click a Janet now. One thing I wanted to mention to you is that since we started our campaign a few weeks ago. As you know, the situation in Syria has thrown Lebanon into more chaos.

There's a lot going on over there so we have brought back hard for Lebanon COO Tom Adam to give us a little update on what's been going on how we can pray and how we can help Tom. It's so good to have you with us again how are you I'm doing great, thank you very much. Her catch up with a couple weeks.

All it seems so now, many people will recognize and remember that Pres. Tromp had pulled our troops out of northern Syria.

There's been a lot going on on the ground. What is going on with not only that particular situation in Syria, but how is that affecting your work in Lebanon right now what is going on.

Well remember when pulled our troops out of Lutheran Syria.

We were the only country that pulled out at the same time a lot of Europeans for French, the UK, the Germans did as well, and the Kurdish people left that area of the article role going to know about Turkey and the Kurdish people had a long battle going on for years and years and years of Pres. relatively new president of yet all you reread on the campaign that original terrorism out of our country and the Kurdish people are terrorists and that's the beginning and end of the story. He's driving him out of northern Syria because he wants the Syrian refugees are living in Turkey moving back Syria into this quotable safe so if it will ever happen.

That's what one is campaign also is fulfilling his promise that's leaving about 200,000 accurate numbers generated are hard to come by, but good numbers from 160 to 2 70,000 Kurdish refugees in Syria headed so they will not go to Jordan Jordan's made it very clear the records close to them. They're not going to go to Iraq because Iraq is falling apart.

As you know we are expecting a good number to come into Lebanon. All were gearing up for that general God's timing is always right, and his ways are not his ways and am thankful but you know we finished our new book called ministry center that will allow us to triple our ministry in the book the data the US troops pulled out of northern Syria. Timing is just coincidental. No way.

God's timing right. It is God's time. That's radical. Yes, we have all the capacity we have everything so close $29 a month or so, so grateful for everyone who's call ready and invested in it. A child in their family, and it's making a huge difference right now today were serving 95 Kurdish families who knows how many we will end up serving but is more economic driven than anything else. What time your work. There is so important and so those listeners who are familiar with what you do it. Your hope centers. Could you give a brief explanation of what your hope centers are all about our hope centers Hauser big initiative to do things with family care family has got a lot of programs under a blanket for the family to survive the daily life struggles despite reported in Lebanon, clean water, human. Skilled trade literacy program, but we also spent a whole lot of time building relationships talking to people helping with their emotional state.

In those conversations, we have the opportunity, because eventually people say to us well on your spending time with us you're talking is what your story and we always conclude our faith story of our employees are born-again Christians and lead them into the prayer of salvation and then into a Bible studies right last week with the problems going on in Syria and Lebanon. We had to 1600 people in our Bible study program in the book car just in the South, you were not able to do it in Beirut while a program that happens in our hope centers hold educational program that's a full-fledged school and perfect boys and girls ages 5 to 213.

The majority of them are orphans by Middle East and they get full academics plus like a chapel post Bible character traits, leadership skills, all based on the word of God. The other thing that happens in our hope centers is what used to be called. This is very exciting news yesterday afternoon 4 o'clock Eastern time. Worship gatherings are now legal now recognized by the Lebanese government as a church in the name of our worship gatherings are now hope evangelical church, and that is all submitted your listeners have helped make all that possible, because the 300 people that were in service last week I was there because of the family care.

The education that we provide one of the cool interest you mentioned that there's been a lot of protest of going on in Lebanon that is still is, but those were talking is still going on. Not as bad as it was, but it still going on, so we had to cancel our worship gatherings are church two weeks ago, we sent a notice to everybody.

No church today is not safe, stay on the old walk so much impossible to get around safely. Janet, we still had 125 show up just wanted to worship. I think that's cool.

It is a snow day in America. Church yeah right yeah the word of God exactly exactly why I tell you why it there's almost more than you can really even tell people you know you're just touching on so many things there, but it really strikes me and I hope it strikes the listener how important the support from our listeners has been to extending your ministry and to be able to do what you need to do in the future now that you have all these Kurds potentially coming into Lebanon right as you finished your hope center taught a little bit about the support from listeners and what it has meant to you and hard for Lebanon. Well, it is hard to put it over the top, vitally important, and it really encourages because we understand that whatever financial investment $29 what anybody can do. It's not equal gifted sequels or whatever anybody $29 about helpless on the baselevel claimant budget extremely well what that we also know that with that comes a lot of prayer and that prayer, especially when you're working in the part of the region.

We are with all the bells of the political environment and Israel to the south is a lot all around us wisdom. How do we choose the right people. How do we ask the right questions follow the prayers of the people are so vitally important and we can feel them. We know that people are Dragon just can't work so hard to put our thanks for praying and also financially given the role of faith without works is the worst spot and it's the finances we have the building.

We have the staff we have the dedication to finance is what gives us the power to goal faithfully and consistently unconditionally yet holistically to share the love of Jesus Christ. Really thank you, absolutely limited that number out for listeners who want to call 888-247-5499.

That's 888-247-5499 where there's a banner to $29 a month will help rescue a family of six. The great work of hard for Lebanon is well worth your support in time.

God bless you will be praying for you and we're just so grateful for your ministry over there and important part of the world think again. God bless you too Tom will be coming to stay with us in the millions of Americans to feel uncertain when it comes to healthcare as a Christian are you looking for healthcare that doesn't violate her morals and convictions were happy to inform you that there is a solution and that solution is liberty healthcare liberty healthcare is a community of like-minded Christians who work together to pay for their medical costs. It allows you to decide how, when and where you will access healthcare so you can make the best choice for you and your family. Starting at $249 for a single up to $529 a month for a family that's mom dad and all the kids. This is how healthcare should be for more information call 855-585-4237 or visit light your that's like your and regain control over your healthcare costs 855-585-4237 or light your

Together were changing healthcare for good. I like to read and whenever I can. I like to read the Puritans. John Gerstner once said that the Puritans constituted the greatest movement in the church since the days of the apostles. That's quite an endorsement. I like to recommend a publisher committed to the writings of these godly men it's called Northampton men such as Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Watson, Jeremiah Burroughs and John Bunyan are just a few of the great preachers they put back into print for us. Many of these titles have not been available since the 1600s, but now they are in print.

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For more information visit their and remember it's an LRT for today I want to talk about somebody who's been a little bit out of the news cycle recently but only re-entered its relation.

Why have to say over the last five, six, seven years as I have dealt with a lot of these evangelical scandals more than I wanted to stand these guys who just can't go away and I'm not trying to be mean by saying that, but if you're involved in a public scandal such as, oh I don't know. Plagiarism abusing your church members sexual misconduct. These sorts of things. Why wouldn't you just tuck your tail between your legs asked the Lord for his forgiveness asked the people for their forgiveness and go get a new job and stay out of the public eye is not what you would wanted to you after you've been publicly exposed or publicly.

You know, humiliated in any way. I would mean if I were a pastor. If I were some sort of major leader and I was publicly humiliated because of my own immorality or my own lack of ethics I would be too embarrassed to go back into the spotlight, but so archaic. Nobody thinks that way anymore.

In fact, this Andy Savage, for example, who was, you know, rightly put out of his church over a sexual abuse scandal, having been in now been involved in a scandal years ago with a young teenage girl is now gonna start his own church.

I don't get these people.

I really don't get these people there other jobs in the universe.

You don't have to become you know your own ecclesiastical authority, especially after you left your previous church for very valid reasons I don't understand this at all. At any rate, Josh Harris is back. Josh Harris is back talking to Mike Allen for axioms on HBO and as a little reminder Josh Harris is the author of I kissed dating goodbye. We talked about this at the time when the scandal came out and he announced not too long ago that he and his wife are getting a divorce.

I kissed dating goodbye was all about purity and maintaining the one God has for you when you know purity culture kinda grew out of that bucket was a very popular book back in the 90s.

Now he's taking it out of publication. He put out a kind of a weird documentary about it. Then he said he was divorcing. Then he said he was leaving the Christian faith altogether. The next thing we know Josh Harris was marching in an LGBT pride parade, and apologizing to the homosexual community and saying that he regretted supporting marriage that was only between a man and a woman in this case gone completely off the rails. Now that you're in asked Christian just you know raise the rainbow flag and be who you are, but why you have to keep giving interviews is to honor now. I guess to give me content for much. Now I know he's not doing it for that reason I'm just being a little bit facetious because I just don't get these people. At any rate you got here a little bit of what he had to say, this is Mike Allen kicking off the interview.

This is cut seven is a very young man wrote a book yet was told I kissed dating goodbye and I got a lot of attention because it was a radical idea.

We shouldn't just not have sex. We should stop dating because dating is leading to us making these mistakes the first time Chris Rife was at the altar I got married about a year and 1/2 after the book was released and then dove into being a pastor pastor a church for for 17 years. I was a pastor there and then the summer when on Instagram and said, essentially, I don't believe by all the measurements for defining a Christian I'm not accursed. I was really just trying to be honest about the fact that all the ways that I had to find faith in Christianity that I was no longer choosing to live according to those most significantly the decision that my wife and I made to end our marriage. Then Josh says people were understandably upset about his announcement that he would be divorcing his wife and he explains why this is because I was a leader and a spokesman and I called people to live in very particular ways to sacrifice in very particular ways and so for me to change in my thinking feels like a betrayal don't like as a pastor I excommunicated people. If you're not living according to the teaching of the Bible living in unrepentant sin, you have to be put out of the church and I think I came to a point of recognizing what I'm not living according to this and I held other people to the standard and you know I excommunicated myself essentially just awful he was. By the way, the former lead pastor of covenant life church with Simon Grace ministries side of the big evangelical sex scandal not not a good background at all. What are the offenses Mike Allen asks him that lead to excommunication. Well, Josh explains that this is Nine of her people are in the church when you talk about X communicating with examples of the offenses that might lead to getting on the local divorce living in any form of unrepentant sin. Oftentimes that's oftentimes that's related to sexuality and a fair living gay lifestyle anyone in LGBT Q community would would fall into that if they were actively trying to overcome those inclinations. That's interesting because he seems to be quite taken with the LGBT community these days. I've no idea where that's all going to lead, but he seems to be taking it rather well now how well you know that those were the reasons that we excommunicate now. Who is he think is really really bad these days. This is the choice caught among all of them and she does it with no irony.

It sounds like you think the church is made a massive mistake by becoming so identified with Pres. Trump incredibly damaging to the gospel to the church and vice system device is should we do well and I think you know you look back at you look back to the Old Testament and the relationship between the prophets in really bad leaders and kings and often times it was. It's not something you unwind because it's it's actually in the Scriptures presented as God's judgment on the false religion of the day you think Christians today who are embracing Pres. Trump are due for judgment. I think it is the judge I think it is part of the judgment to have a leader like Trump I think is in itself part of the indictment that that this is the leader that you want and maybe deserve it represents a lot of who you are. Wait wait wait wait. Seriously, no irony whatsoever you're asked Christian's Christian in your talking about what is really damaging to the gospel and the church is Trump voters. You're the one citing the Old Testament warning Christians that it's not an end well for people who vote for Tromp and that God's judgment is on us for voting for Trump really so.

Had we elected Hillary Rodham Clinton with God's blessing be honest Josh, what is this nonsense and what position are you possibly in at this stage of the game Josh to be able to be lecturing Christians on their voting habits and talking about the judgment of God. You know if you're going to worry about the judgment of God. You should be worried about your own life.

I'm not trying to be overly harsh here, but I'm just being realistic. You are the one who has cast away Jesus Christ cast away the gospel cast away the church and you're the one who's turning around and talking about God's judgment on us because we voted for Tromp over Hillary. I mean, that's Gaul but it's also very blind and it's very scary. And I'll tell you why because we go back to Hebrews chapter 6 the peril of falling away where it says therefore leaving the elementary teaching about Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God of instruction about washings and laying on of hands in the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. In this we will do if God permits for in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the son of God and put him to open shame for ground that drinks the rain, which often falls on it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tells receives a blessing from God.

But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. That ought to give you a lot more pause, Josh than anything having to do with who people vote for for the presidency of the United States. That's the stark reality that's the truth. That's the really scary part of the whole thing worry about where you will spend eternity.

Josh worry about that because that some much more pressing issue than who I voted for or who your fellow Christians voted for when you were one. I guess you're not one now point out tell you, the devil is really a liar is and he and he really does blind people, and he really does deceive and he really does steal, kill and destroy. And all I can think about when I listen to that on the surface is boy Josh you really got it wrong, but godly fear for this man, godly fear for this man. Let's pray for him really pray for this man that he will see the error of his ways because right now he's wandering off into the desert and only the Lord could bring them back for 11 and some very, very difficult days church. Keep the faith, keep your eyes on Jesus Christ, the only way were going to get to the heavenly city. All right, we got to go. Thanks for being with us here in Janet efforts today.

See next time for today is brought by Tri-Star pictures of beautiful day in the neighborhood on the true story beautiful day in the neighborhood, starring Tom Hanks and Matthew Rees rated PG tested in theaters November 22

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