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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Peter Schweizer (Corruption) Diarmaid MacCulloch (Cromwell)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
February 6, 2020 5:44 pm

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Peter Schweizer (Corruption) Diarmaid MacCulloch (Cromwell)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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February 6, 2020 5:44 pm

How are America's progressive elites abusing their power for the enrichment of themselves, their families and their donors? Peter Schweizer, president fo the Government Accountability Institute, joins me to talk about it and his book, "Profiles in Corruption." Plus: Diarmaid MacCulloch stops by to talk about his book, "Thomas Cromwell: A Revolutionary Life." That and more on Friday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.


This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies.

Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or, our confidence is in Christ alone, I saw no presidents from from office in part for his alleged abuse of power are themselves the ones who are abusing power and in a Massive Way, Joe Biden, for example, claimed a few days ago that his son Hunter was asked to be a board member of the Ukrainian energy company Marie's mama because he is a very bright guy. Even though Hunter had no experience in the energy sector. What is the truth about how these elites are abusing their power for personal gain because it certainly goes beyond Joe Biden joined me now as Peter Schweitzer, president of the Government accountability Institute and the former William J. Casey fellow at the Hoover institution at Stanford is also the New York Times best-selling author of Clinton cash is out a great new book that were to be discussing how profiles and corruption and abuse of power by America's progressive elites. So great to have you with us. How are you I'm great how it's great to talk to you when you focus in this book on this part of the problem of power inequality bad. Would you say the power inequality is among some of these top Democrats we hear about income inequality all the time. Power inequality is really talking about the fact that if your public show. You can get away with people and apply the wealthy people in the private sector could not the sort of apical or legal constraint on nepotism or corruption or self-dealing that apply to corporate executives doesn't apply to politicians you have a guy like Joe Biden on a chapter in the book 70 pages long.

Look at the five members of his family who cashed him while he was white with massive government contract. These would lucrative deals with foreign governments.

If this will corporate not only would they be fire it would probably be under investigation by the people post a violation of the United States because she's got the right political views guys of many in the media.

You basically get away with what right in his you point out, in focusing on progressive elites in particular doing this. The reason you're saying you're doing this is because there is so much into give us more power.

Let the government have more power, more power, more power, it seems these are the last people who want to have more power exactly the book. The first one.


What I mean by that, but the coverage of Schwab has been so massive by the media like a total eclipse of the font walked out any mention any of that patient looking at any other political figures out any political leader. Don't fall any political leader needs to have screwed. But the problem is that a lot of the people who you are aspiring for his job or who want more government power in general have not been investigated. So people will really be shocked by the things of this book. The second reason though Janet is because as you said progressive your unique. Unlike conservative model it will apical live.

All progressives are saying the size of government is way too small to eat a lot more power. My question is one of a gun with the power they already yes rights that's the real question. So when were talking about Joe Biden. It's interesting because I understand now the Treasury Department has complied with these Republican senators who had requested Hunter Biden's nonclassified financial record so I guess that is going forward, but a lot of people are now saying okay here was Tromp who is put through the ringer over his Ukrainian phone call where there was no quid pro quo. What will happen with the Biden family. Do you have any sense that something will come down on Joe Biden. He will finally be held accountable and Hunter Biden will be held accountable for great what we know that he wants to hold. That's why I called. I don't know whether any of his conduct criminal. I know it certainly is a lot there a lot in Washington that are legal, which is one of things is so frustrating for a lot of people. But my question is why shouldn't they simply be asked under oath. What were they being paid for. How much will they be paid. What about all the other deal.

Hunter Biden was bait veritable United Nations of corruption deals with the Chinese government with the Romanians with Colossians with the Kazakhstan. These are serious questions need to be asked if wire elected officials should disclose that they have $1000 in stock in GED we ought to require their family members to disclose if they've got, you know, sometimes billion-dollar deals with foreign government absolutely that it's crazy that there is that kind of loophole. Why is there such a loophole for politicians that seems like a long overdue training in that needs to take place. Janet, of course, a challenge always exist because the politicians get to write their own rule it out.

So imagine that. I mean if you're in a position where you get to choose to like the role or as a company executive.

You think I like my own rule and nobody can over what you going to do. I mean honest people will try to do the right thing but a lot of people when they're in Washington DC feel they are entitled to it. So that's the problem. A lot of the younger people like Bernie Sanders and others exploit them on a regular basis and that's the reason that they grow so well for water runoff. Yes, that's the real question people make so much money on your salary.

Now we know why. When you say that five members of Biden's family were really able to cash in. I know you talk about his brother, Frank, for example. But did his family benefit financially when he was in the Senate. In particular, others all kinds of examples and when he was as well. Let me, I have a daughter, Ashley, a lot of people don't know about Ashley, but I'll think about this in June 2011. The vice Joe Biden brings to me just one company called Star to tell people in the Oval Office to meet with Barack Obama you have a picture taken of the website the next day.

This new company is featured of the major federal government can't conflicts on healthcare data and over the next five years as vice president goes and brief investors and partners to this healthcare investment from start of health privately filling out of the vice president's one of the three principal founders of this company happens to be married to his daughter Ashley got me back that is completely and totally inappropriate if self-dealing of don't forget it will be outraged. I'd be outraged what Joe Biden has done it and no one is called into account. That's just one example of the five family members and how they have benefited from Joe Biden using his office to public office for the private benefit of his family. Sickening. Bernie Sanders you mentioned, Bernie has established this pattern of benefiting himself and his allies. Everybody remembers for example his wife in the Burlington College scandal.

What is the deal with Bernie. How corrupt is Bernie Sanders a bit of surprise. Maybe if I figured that okay socialist I don't agree with this policy position. But the true believer your true believer is also benefit enormously from his career he's figured out yet. One of the dirty little secret in Washington, which is when you're running campaign the way you can funnel money to somebody and nobody knows about is by making them your media by so Janet you want for the Senate. For example, when you hired me to buy $1 million in television and radio ads, it would show that $1 million in radio and television that will bought what it would not show is the industry standard 15% commission that would go to me without all the campaigns do this. What's different about burning cases Bernie did what you hired his wife because media buyer even though she had no background in media find so he funneled all this money to his wife and to his family through his campaign and is a huge mystery because when he ran for president 26 funnel $83 million in media by about $12 million commission through this company that that doesn't have a website that's registered at this residential home and nobody quite knows who got the commission know that the company is called multimedia is owned by two of James Sanders is flattened and we know that James Sanders was asked about this by a progressive reporter in 2016 and she just held up the file but nobody knows where that $12 million went to be very curious to well that is very sleazy exactly when you have that amount of money and energy are going around talking about corrupt one per centers.

It just doesn't pass the straight face test on some level you go. Wait a minute Bernie you do you say or socialist but you seem to enjoy your dollars quite event will really come back here Schweitzer with us profiles and corruption is his book will return right after this on Janet for today hi this is Kirk Cameron and I am honored to be partnering with the Ministry of pre-born to help mom's choose life actor Kirk Cameron supports pre-born. My four oldest children were adopted. That is because of caring and compassionate people who help those young mothers choose life. My wife is an adopted child and her birth mother chose life for her if it weren't for those caring individuals that help those young moms of value. The sacredness of life.

I wouldn't have my wife I wouldn't have my four adopted children, and the two natural born children that we have wouldn't exist either. My whole family is here because of people that are involved with ministries like freeborn freeborn funds pregnancy centers across the nation so they can offer free ultrasounds to women in crisis pregnancies. Ultrasound is a game changer because when abortion minded women actually see their babies in their wombs for themselves.

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855402, baby. That's 855402 baby 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to you're listening to Janet Mefford today and you welcome back Peter Schweitzer is joining me at the best-selling author of Clinton Cassie's out with a great new book it's called profiles and corruption and abuse of power by America's progressive elites and this is just astounding when you consider the total hypocrisy Peter. I mean, these are people who are constantly talking about caring about the little guy.

I see especially Joe Biden.

Joe Biden is made a career out of identifying with the little guy as he's playing all kinds of games enriching himself and enriching his family. I and Bernie Sanders as well. You know when we go back to the Burlington College scandal. It seems like a kinda came up. There was a an inquiry of some sort.

I know there was a complaint filed by the trunk campaign official. Whatever came of that.

You don't hear much about it anymore.

Joe overlooked what I go through in the bought becomes part of the Burlington College takes out the loan trying to grow the college by acquiring buildings and it looks like she falsified, or misrepresented information on those loan, but the question becomes, why did Burlington College get into financial trouble and there were lots of reasons, but use what nobody picked up on that we expose in the book while Jane was president of Arlington College. She funneled more than half $1 million of college money to a one by her daughter. It was a unaccredited woodworking school and supposedly this woodworking school with help the college grow. But the Board of Trustees of the college didn't really ever arbitrate or decide to fund the daughters with school. There was no open bidding for other woodworking schools was simply a transfer of money from James Sanders to her daughters and this fits the pattern probably Sanders get it when he was mayor in Burlington. We talk about that when he was in Congress, Jane Bennett, which was president of going to college and four years.

Bernie Sanders for 36 years with Ashley Kevin without has railed against you know American politics being dominated by millionaires and billionaires well three years ago.

Janet you drop them millionaires part because he is now 11 because of his government service and there's all kinds of aspects to how he's operated that you shows a huge inconsistency between what he professes to be in charge of and what you believe and what is actually that's amazing. That's crazy Elizabeth Warren, she's another one you tackle. She has all kinds of problems. The whole Pocahontas thing and lying about being a Native American and all that stuff that came about corrupt is she what when you looked into her and in her background layer cake for Elizabeth Warren. She herself played one of the oldest and dirtiest games in Washington DC. She was hired a lot of people know this. She was hired by Congress in 1994 to rewrite part of Bancorp, which she did. She then went to corporations and said hey you, looking over here.

I won't rule you could hire me I will help you get around the laws that the taxpayers take me to light. That's one of the reason she's worth you know around $12 million today because she was being paid at the Harvard faculty member to live this lifestyle is because she was being paid by Dow Chemical and other corporation to navigate a law that we pay your taxpayers to write one of the juries games in Washington. We talk in the book about the business interests of her daughter which really align between the public service of one of the actual actions that her daughter was taken the strange situation with her son-in-law. Her son-in-law married your daughter Amelia got all kinds of interesting international business dealings that was financed by the government of you all know there's all kinds of troubling issues surrounding Elizabeth born again, none of this stuff is been reported as all based on paper trail document 1100 footnotes of this book Clarice I am so glad you're doing this work.

This is such important information for everybody to have any. I know you also mentioned that she's lied about her legal advocacy for families and workers. What does her legal consulting record actually show about that yellow thing. If you look at the actual legal cases.

You all then you look at the attorney that went against her. She tries to try it as I was being so for example the case of Dow Chemical. I was being paid by Dow Chemical to look out for the interests of women who were suing Dow Chemical because of faulty breast well anymore you talk to one laugh at that, because you're not being paid by your client to look out for Beatrice and somebody else rebuked by your client to look out right in the lawyers that work in these cases actually she was there doing the bidding for these corporations and there's no disputing that despite what Elizabeth want how she wants to try to spend it or what she watched quite a man at the scene. It really frustrates me is you have an entire media that could be digging this stuff out and could be reporting it and they won't do any of that. I mean, even from the standpoint of this is a really good story you might want to look into it. Why is anybody ever put pick up on this stuff. You don't have to protect every single Democrat. Do you if you're in the mainstream media just a couple reporters that have tried to track a little chat a little little bit of credit but you're right, not a high level attention to this and the other part of this yet. So frustrating is in my book. There are no anonymous source. Everything is footnoted so it's based on court documents based on financial record based on foreign corporation records all documented paper trail contrasted that the media will run all of the sometimes really crazy stories about doll talk based on some anonymous source right. Note that they have no backup for so it's really unfortunately an indictment of journalism. I believe every political figure whether it's Donald Trump, Elizabeth Warren, eight, but the scrutiny is only on one side. A lot of the so-called scrutiny of comp is been a reckless using anonymous sources and here you have actual paper trail documentation that at least is information people want to know about the media does not want to go there. Yeah, and it is it the case that you really want corrupt people leading you, even if they happen to have the positions that you approve of you want people who are corrupt and enriching themselves and their families. That's the standard that you have for the people who are in office right on Janet and I say good for people.

I know people that are liberal or conservative, or moderate, but there are good and honest people on both thought I might not agree with our office on on the little Democrat side honest and on.

So it's not the case that there aren't other option is just that for some reason these leaders by the case of father Joe Biden business sense that you got this history and he's got this gravitas and they don't want to disrupt that but that's what we should be doing is we should be dreading. We should be allowing no who their leaders are whether the running for president or whether the powerful senators or the mayor of Los Angeles got a chapter on him in the book. People need to know how their operating how they're using power to benefit themselves and their families well right and I know one of the people that's been in the news recently has been people to judge.

I know this is not something you covered in the book, but I'm curious for your opinion on how this Iowa caucus travesty has come down because you have all the controversy involving this shadow app in the funding and the Clinton operatives behind it. I mean, did the corruption doesn't just stop. As we all understand with people enriching themselves.

Corruption also can come out in just the plain old process of doing politics what what is your reaction to what's been going on with Iowa caucuses.

Remarkable. Like I don't believe that you have level of incompetent in the Iowa Democratic Party.

I just don't understand. Okay, maybe they were sloppy.

They made some mistakes but it's very hard to convince the that it takes this long and you have to make this many corrections of adjustment to a Democratic primary process is not how I think that there is an effort within the Democratic Party hierarchy to basically present Bernie Sanders from being the nominee.

I think that for a variety of reasons, I think you're staying up late out and and I agree with you. Lots of examples in the book call Harris for president but when you see the manner in which she covered up and failed to handle child abuse. A priestly scandal in San Francisco while she was the boss why she did that benefit you who benefited from that and how those will help her get elected. Realizing that what you're saying is not just about getting rich about law power in your power and the ambitious climb to the top for sure.

Some of these methods that you talk about in the book is things like sweetheart deals and bending along covering things up. Are any of these tactics tending to be used more than others when it comes to the progressive elite quickly what I call offshore and corruption is very common so Janet if you are a senator and hopped on which I know you would be I would pay you off if I gave you a shoebox with thousand dollars cash for a favor you we get caught both go to jail if I know if I hired you know one of your kit by Howard hired your or if I hired your brother and sister and gave them a no-show job, no example I Countrywide you got with you claiming that units would million dollars.

That's very hard to Trinity now in the eyes of the law, it still corruption if you're doing that in exchange for favorites. No bribery is very very hard to so this is become a vehicle common vehicle were, politicians, you, so they disclose in your body. I don't have that much money am not worth that much. Look at my financial disclosures while his sister and his daughter and daughter and son are cashing in the present time and not having you disclose any of rights law makes you wonder if you have a kid who's a very bright guy.

Why can't he get on a Ukrainian energy company board saying to my wife. Isn't it a level playing field. At the end of the day, and listening in the Bible case and it's ridiculous that we all know you're in Washington laughing by your Bush advantages, but Ukraine case is so clear-cut. In February 2014 goes in the Crimea that sets off a whole Ukrainian crisis in March. The next month.

Joe Biden is a 40 point person for all USA dollars going to Ukraine within two weeks. Within two weeks along was a whole Ukrainian suddenly divided in a highly non-yeah yeah given 3 million. I'm sorry everybody knows going on.

I know it's not like guy who happens to be related to the vice president I know is so true Peter Schweitzer. The book is profiles and corruption something to talk to Peter. Thanks a lot will be right back.

This archived broadcast of Janet met for today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 85540222294 here's your hose show where mankind today. He has been called one of the greatest statesmen, England ever had. Thomas Cromwell is well known for his position close to King Henry VIII in his hand and the Protestant Reformation and how did this obscure commoner become the architect of England split with Rome.

Why was he executed and was he ultimately of billing or a hero working to talk about it today with Thurman McCullough who is Prof. of the history of the church at Oxford University's award-winning books include Thomas Cranmer, a life, and the Reformation. A history is a historian and Anglican deacon knighted in 2012 and he has presented many highly celebrated documentaries for television and radio's latest book is called Thomas Cromwell a revolutionary life, and Prof. McCullough wonderful to have you with us and to be reviewed what I know that you have written quite a few books on the tutor era of English history and I'm curious to ask what it is about that era and maybe Cromwell in particular that draws your interest weeping.

I actually really don't approve very long time to go to the boy and I grew up in a remote parts of East New England where my father was a priest and he had two beautiful medieval churches and in one of them will the two monuments who tutor gentry family and I was fascinated by these even though Moses led the thing for which interested me was that after the Protestant Reformation in England this family. This gentry family had remained Roman Catholic, yet they continued burying that family members in the parish church which they loved and did so for another 200 years, it was fascinating and called from an early age of the two.

One was particularly interested them to realize just how crucial it walls in the development of England, Britain, and in fact the United States which you manage from the English colonies in North America absolutely, absolutely.

We delved into Cromwell's earlier years, didn't you and I know there hasn't been a lot known about his childhood in his early years, but what did you discover about his childhood and his growing up and he wasn't obscure commoner, but what do we know about him will we know you as you say he was obscure and therefore mentation is boss.

He grew up in a small village called Putney which is on the River Thames. Its upstream from London, and Royal biology is in the the apologies of the nobility would say will cost the company they might still it was a bit like a service station on the freeway. You you'd hope for a tankard available something like that so young Thomas would grow up and his father was a Brewer so you may have served tankard of ale two great men when he was a boy 14 1849 to what we don't discount about him was that virtually everything we so we knew about this boy. Walls of Victorian lullaby made up by 19th century local historian who just to do it to big himself up and so he laid them. Trails of what looked like facts will affect the toll and so when I was able to push those out of the way of the more interesting he managed which was the voices from the 16th century, which seemed to be told thing the toes, father was from English until the that's, I think we need to investigate more. But since who was living. We knew was wrong, and you go to the voices we need to take care of them. I'm the take an interest in them is not just almost Cromwell, who is involved in that, but his sister had descendents and one of those defendants was Michael Oliver Cromwell and all of the name in the is is that the dog can dive any the symbol of English colonialism or bad things of the English to island and it did not attend that because of this. Oliver Cromwell had Irish dissent to just how fascinating it is that it's it's it's a nice example. Believe it real history and upset myth mount Irishman did all those dreadful things to them well I well yes, some people have a break big awakening on some of these issues that even cover here. And some these myths which I want to get into why is it that Thomas Cromwell ended ended up in governmental life. I know that he had a mentor, Cardinal Woolsey and then eventually became important to King Henry VIII. But what was the trail that brought him into a new positions of prominence you meant the rear crucial monoclonal Thomas will be the great preview the man before Thomas, he was everything he'd be rendered to run the government of England and he took on Thomas Cromwell as a servant in a very particular way and what you Michael Munro but also very important role which was organizing called the woollies that was very important century and around the tomb would be holy Jesus priest to pray for the couple sold, was intelligible that using charge of putting the money to find the colleges in the Cardinal had decided to develop ministries of something people remember about Thomas Cuomo that it was associated with developing ministries that Henry VIII rails told them put on the Woolsey but it was a boom in the middle.

Which explains really everything and do what I realize that I was extremely pleased because it links back to his early life. He left the village of Putney. It was boring and obscure and you went across Europe as a teenager and went to one of Europe's greatest cities, Lawrence in Italy and that he was the center of European culture normally age, which was only age and he came back from that experience in his 20s to England really the best Kylie and the only tutoring them. He spoke fluent Italian, French and German and Spanish, and black Tyndale but it time to think because Cardinals to being built by Italians that want to call the wanted this particular obscure emotional this obscure lawyer. It was it speaking Italian to Italians and then they would go on creating this credible to fund that's nothing. Actually, as well, which will him and Henry VIII of this because when in the Thruway Hazel to call the Woolsey fund will be felt, the company to which to live, not finished in workshops in London, Westminster and Henry VIII pitched it into a tool called the related things off and decided it would be his tomb on the Italian Crossman will go on working better than Thomas Cromwell.

The Cardinals old to go to that project into self transferring old columns property to the king so that that's the story of how this very obscure man in his 40s became the king's chief minister wow that's that's fascinating how that actually occurred and had not heard that before and that really is interesting. So here he was his first position. Then when he came into the employ of King Henry the eight where did he start out in relation to the king. He started in a very what you Michael position he was administering the Cardinals property and they would bring comfort to the king a huge palace different than Westminster which "you'll place that was cool white whole schools in improving this government but it with them.

A glorious palace and that is almost job was to make it glorious and wonderful Henry VIII as it had been, so you might cool him, though he will give the title secretary for the relay to the fair is hearing very quickly the king so just how competent he was, who study quietly involving a middle school about the things yes so he was in and he ended up having quite a roll, and quite an important role under the reign of King Henry the eight and of course one of the things we want to get into when we come back from this break is the fact that King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn played a part in all of this era of history and the creation of the Church of England and breaking some round there so much they are working to talk about how Thomas Cromwell fits into that. It's the name of the book, the revolutionary life by Prof. Dermot McCullough to come back on Jennifer today will be three.

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Is everybody will know Prof. wanted to have his marriage annulled to Catherine of Aragon wanted to marry Anne Boleyn and Cromwell.

You know, played a part in all this did his religious life impact his role under Henry VIII is all of that on on wound and took place was important because all Henry wanted was to get married, and Boleyn, which would involve some dissuading the world, but he won't mounted An American, and I think it was Henry who had the rages audacious idea of when the Pope denied him the possibility of saying well I'm going to take the church to liken a point about who will do this for me and I will be supreme head of the church. I think we have to save it Henry VIII is that Cromwell showed them how to do it became my drug he was so conceited, so arrogant he might've destroyed claiming this, but it would be to develop the loving thing the country would really student this break off with opposing views of connection to room, Cromwell said with a way to do it is using Parliament. The assembly of the room with them the ability to increase the bishops make them all sent to this I want to that the most remarkable thing about Thomas, the most distinctive thing was that he Parliament. He had been a member of Parliament in the 1520s even before he'd join will be so they could buy a new how to handle it. So the story really was, putting would patiently all things will machinery to get Parliament to consent. Bit by bit. This break with Rome, then the acceptance of the marriage to a bulletin that is a treatment and it had a long, long term effect because Allman could never done anything that important before you could go to Texas for the king.

It'd looking at body fitted chipped things it consented to the king's policies, but now it was being off to do this absolutely momentous thing. That's why a revolutionary life because you may Parliament do something revolutionary saved Parliament. It may be English called special debris part of your Parliament took the time to know uncommon medieval Europe of the no but they mostly with the doorway in the 16th century not being the moment it expended. After this it became central. You might say but the democracy of the United States, its shape to the experience of English, behind it. That's the really interesting part about it, but one of the myths that you bust in the book is the notion that Cromwell was an ally of Ann Boleyn in their efforts to promote the Reformation.

What's the real story on that that great dorks tradition of a being seen as allies because the Protestants pushing forward to Reformation what people have noticed was the closeness of Cromwell to his former employer called world he had told me he even took you I will go to bombs and devotional bit into his coat of arms and registered it with the Herald is often the Cardinal that when the column within disgrace's memory was black women and Boleyn was the coming person and to do that, you'll really actually putting a gesture of defiance to another would they pay to the Boleyn had destroyed the Cardinal made sure that his time of greatness was over and promote the dual development so there is no evidence that tool as I work through the huge quantities of money any friendship between them. Thomas, a 21, and then Boleyn and every evidence that he was responsible for destroying in 1536, when she was arrested for adultery and incest and then executed, and I think it is no doubt that he is responsible for straightening that using feelings and taking that ultimately destroying the end of the column that would certainly discount him as an ally for sure who he was involved in. Yes, I mean to be an understatement there, but of course Thomas Cromwell meant it met his own and with execution and one wonders how was it that he went from being such a trusted advisor to the king to being executed. What was the path to execution for him.

Well your problem of the minutes go by Henry VIII.

You don't succeed. Over time you got to deliver the goods will mock the Cardinal had failed to deliver the goods on getting the annulment letter to Kevin about it, was involved in the same way because it was all about marriage, number four Henry VIII, six wives, this is to Cleves foreign Princess suited Cromwell very well to the following princess. She would be the daughter of an English nobleman and diplomatically she represented a reaching out Reformation so you fix it up. She arrived in the king of really mysterious. We just can't understand Henry VIII taste in women hated up and he couldn't get out of the marriage thing was fixed.

To marry this woman. He hated me the meanest waiting of the 16th century, followed by the wedding night, and yet the only way he could really read himself out of Cleves was to say he could not perform without that would annul the marriage, how humiliating that laws and that's really what did he blamed Thomas global like me so that was, like the tennis wow, that's incredible. Also now on the midst of his brutality and in helping Henry VIII become a tyrant and that sort of thing.

What is the truth about Thomas Cromwell's rule was he more of a villain or more of a hero as you studied all this research will never became a type condiment wanted to tutoring them open like that. It had checks and balances United States now and Thomas, was called to the checks and balances. He was the king's servant, and he did find himself drawn into the king brutality he was responsible for prosecuting Goodman -like, small in making sure that they were executed. He'd try to soften the king brutality on occasions he could bring the king down from motors rages but you have to say.

In the end that he has to bear some of the blame pool, Henry VIII was action so the ruler who could make good people do bad things and I would say in the end Thomas Comeau walls a good person who did some very bad things which he was characterized him as a great man.

Yes, I would be effectively treated with incredibly long-lasting if anyone did England into the Protestant Reformation. It was him.

You then have to judge with a but childhood greatness. I would say it does. Of those who disagree, but in this manner, the money will, unlike old load is very little middle ground that I've tried to present a portrait of the whole man and so I hope people can judge for themselves on that evidence, but I still admire him, but he had chutzpah and I like people with yes rights but certainly not a perfect man, what would you characterize his his greatest contribution to English history in the final analysis, it is a religious one pushing England in a Protestant direction when his king didn't want him to. And that's one of the reasons you develop automatically and the directions he said the direction the week England set out over the next centuries right which also as you mentioned before, had a tremendous influence on the United States. In the long run. It was Protestantism, which he helped create. Which put people across the Atlantic.

Ironically, against the church of England need help, but the same Protestantism. Yes, despite the side of the Irish father he had all of this influence on England and and beyond, way beyond a very significant person in not just British history, but in the history of the world and it's just such a beautiful book, Thomas Cromwell, a revolutionary life and professor Dermot McCullough has been joining us is Prof. of the history, the church at Oxford University and author of this really wonderful but so good to have you with us. Prof. McCullough really an honor to talk to you.

Thank you so much pleasure. Thank you so much for being here will see next time on Janet my for today. Thank you so much for listening

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