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Janet - Mefferd - Today - Joel Beeke (Satan) Stephen Turley (Fulfilling Life)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
June 12, 2020 5:00 am

Janet - Mefferd - Today - Joel Beeke (Satan) Stephen Turley (Fulfilling Life)

Janet Mefferd / Janet Mefferd

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June 12, 2020 5:00 am

Every Christian is in a battle that is fierce, spiritual, and necessary between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. What do we need to know about our enemy – his strategies, his weaknesses and his defeat at Calvary? On the next JANET MEFFERD TODAY, Dr. Joel Beeke joins me to talk about it and his book, FIGHTING SATAN. PLUS: How can the recovery of transcendent values like truth, goodness and beauty in education help human beings to flourish? Dr. Stephen Turley will join me to talk about it and his book, “Awakening Wonder.” That and much more on Friday’s JANET MEFFERD TODAY!

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This archived broadcast of Janet my for today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or is our confidence is in Christ alone is sort of in the apply to us today. Not just in biblical times.

As Christians we have a formidable enemy and Satan. He is the tempter. He is the father of lies. He is the deceiver. What more should we know about the devil though pertaining to his weaknesses in his strategies against us. And what should we understand about his defeats were to be talking about it today with Dr. Joby Keith Dr. Biggie as president and Prof. of systematic theology in homiletics at Puritan reformed theological seminary. He also serves as a pastor of the heritage Netherlands reform congregation Grand Rapids, Michigan. They were to be talking about his book fighting Satan, Dr. Biggie so nice to talk to you again. How are you doing well.

Thank you for every great wonderful to talk to you now this is a very serious subject and you talk about the fact that we are in what Bunyan called a holy war what you think that really entails. When we use the term holy war will always because were battling against the powers of evil in a spiritual way seeking to live for God's kingdom for our Savior's over battling against the world world and us our own natural old nature answering the very stoking the fires in both begin to produce a stumble, so the old churches used to speak of the triple headed enemy which we fight in the holy war, revealed the world of self and Satan right exactly and yet we live in a world today that is a little bit amused at the idea that there is a devil he's often portrayed in the red suit with the tail and all the rest in the pitchfork and even for Christians in there. They're scared almost to talk about Satan because they don't want to become extreme and see demons behind every bush but what you think is a a biblical position on the devil and what we do need to know about him. Well biblical "fallen from heaven, he was spotless angel, and in some way or another, probably through pride. And that's a real mystery of hope right to be in heaven, but he was cast out, you want to usurp God's throne and so he comes to earth and he tries to get out of a need to fall in the very way that he fell and he seems to be successful enough to do fall on the pride and unbelief in no the Christian biblical view is that Satan is portable evil power that stronger than we are all by ourselves, but much less strong then of course not good news of Jesus Christ. Because after all things, a fallen angel and Jesus is on fallen Lord of glory was all power in heaven and earth, so pressure the upper hand and we need to balance that out in our own thinking saying to ourselves. Well, Satan, Almighty Christ is Almighty, but we should minimize Satan either or the devil say well because Christ ago muddied another force to be reckoned with the Lotus and his minions are are are Mike. Just thank God, not Almighty quite very, very much so now it's interesting when we mentioned that Satan is a fallen angel is Scripture says many people will say it. Well now he took angels with him, a 30 angels fell with Satan. What is their role in the earth today are they roaming around in this sense of means or how does it know people have a little you know the mischaracterization at times or sometimes a misunderstanding of where Satan is and how he works in our world today? Well this way where we'd we could be very visually oriented our sites. We try to capture the spirit world and all of its details, the devil will resave the devil we mean Satan, the Prince of Devils that was a double remaining all the host would follow him. So there. There are spirits just like the angels are in heaven, only their evil spirits. And so what they tried to do is they try even though they know that ultimately won't be successful. They try to destroy the work of God and I know they can't reach Christ Jesus exalted use victorious. So to try to reach is the crown of his his work, which is his people so that you the first and foremost younger in the crosshairs of Satan and his minions would be would be the children of God will do anything to destroy the children of God. And so he uses every effort for John Culver City overturns every stone are disturbed to try to get us to deny the Lord who bought us, and then of course she tries to keep his own captives. That is unsafe. People keep them in his own Without having them go AWOL and go into the camp of Jesus through through the regenerating the saving work of the Holy Spirit, and through faith and repentance, so he would very much opposed any any effort to for people to repent and believe the gospel absolutely you have described saying in the book like a condemned criminal on death row.

So Satan has been defeated by Christ as we know, but it is not a final defeat because we are still living here.

How should we reconcile those two truths that Christ has defeated Satan at Calvary mine and then risen again, but yet we still have to contend with him until Christ returns and everything is finished in the final analysis, so the whole New Testament age dynamic in which reliving is always in the New Testament presented as the now and not yet dynamic. Now were still in Romans seven territory where we grapple with the evil that is within us that we we wish we could put to death completely and were not yet what were going to be one day will were perfected and in glory 110. The vine put it this way, said Satan is missing from the two first chapters of the Bible is missing from the last two chapters of the Bible but until the day of judgment. He's he's he's a present force to be reckoned with. And so we we live without tension refining Satan is defeated so that so that's a victory and that's our glory doesn't mean he won't seek to do is damage. So if you go back to Genesis 315 and you look at that wonderful first gospel promise that the head will be bruised by Jesus. That is the head of Satan and Jesus will bruise the heel of the seed of the woman while he's going on in doing that. Still today, he's always trying to bruise us, get us to fall. Give us trouble bring evil thoughts into our lives somehow always trying to get us to weaken our witness for Christ.

So it's a battle, but thanks be to God.

The victory is ours in Christ.

In Romans 16 says the Lord shall bruise Satan under your head shortly for the days coming when Satan will be cast into hell will be no more, and every true believer will be with Christ were all evil is walled out and all good is walled in men. Now it's interesting because when you talk about Satan wanting to come after Christ church, because he can't to anything to Christ. How is it that he continues to, as some people say fight a battle that he can't win. I mean if we belong to Christ, and we have been saved and we are being sanctified and we will one day be glorified God is guaranteed that in Christ and that we use.

The Holy Spirit is the deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. How why did Satan bother. I guess that's that.

The bottom line question for a lot of people.

Why would Satan bother to try to attack the church when that he can't finally win.

Have you ever heard someone so much of an enemy against you, that that person knows it can't topple you completely from your physician or your leadership but you just hate you so much you don't get you no matter what tells you that you possibly could look at.

So that's the kind of thing that Satan essentially knows you can't get the victory, but he will be safe for you to stanch that thing is driven by Jesus as God is driven by love. So he hates God so much that he wants to do anything he can to possibly damage that causes even if yougoing away to ultimate defeat rights well and that's that's really important to consider, especially when looking at passages like Ephesians chapter 6.

One of the things you talk about Dr. B key is how we fight this war against Satan both defensively and often simply want to come back to that talking about fighting Satan with Dr. Joel Beatty stay with us and Jennifer today. Are you in need of a healthcare program you're in love as a member of Liberty healthcare in your part of a community that comes together to share their medical expenses. You can sign up throughout the year. With membership starting as early as the following month and there are no contracts or commitments. Grandma start as low as $199 per month and there is no network so you can choose your own doctors and hospitals.

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But what would you say are some of his strategies against us that we ought to know about will thinking, as is a force for promoting share for promoting unrighteousness for the loss of the flesh so that he attacks us in a very direct way all try to make sin attractive and a type of thing, but he also comes the Bible says on the place of the angel of light. In these ways you can come to try to deceive us try to make us think that we are children of God that we really aren't you or he can try to come as angel light to to minimize sin in our lives about.

That's too bad your Savior Christian. So Satan. The Bible pictures it this way that he doesn't mind if your nominal so-called nominal Christian church that you got from head knowledge about Christianity long as you don't live it. Would Satan would oppose my domain is of vital living reality and in Christianity writes exactly sign keep it to yourself. Just don't live it out.

Don't act like a Christian, don't behave the way Christ commands you to behave because that's when his kingdom is truly threatened to in and especially when we are engaged in preaching the gospel to sinners, whom God may take away from Satan's kingdom that that is also a threat to him right now. Let's go to Ephesians 6 because we have all of the weapons of war that that are talked about in a particular passage that with the belt of truth, and the feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, the breastplate of righteousness, and so forth. When you look at those particular aspects of the armor of God. It's interesting how many of them are defenses and what is the parallel would you say between the defense of posture of the Christian and Ephesians 6 and how that helps us interact in this battle will structured around these two principles.

Ephesians 6 is just a graphic demonstration of that will reap the seven or eight pieces of weaponry. The whole goal here is to be covered from head to foot in this battle and to have certain pieces of armor like of the belt of truth and of the brush for the righteousness and use them defensively and a culture shock sheet but then also use the sword or the word of God so you can go on an attacking offense and of course, through prayer, praying in the spirit watching the perseverance we actually you are looking out for Satan's Daniel for Jesus going on the offense really if you boil it down into a nutshell, what were talking about here is the two dimensions of the Christian life. Hebrews 12 wanted to push this way lay aside sin and all that easily dispatch you to run the Christian race and then that's a negative put aside sin BBB be octave but be defense of their offense of late. Go out and looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. For the joy that was set before him, etc. over you live always in this dilemma all this tension where you're saying no to sending saying yes to Christ and in that battle you're being both defensive and offense of the sabbatical, putting off the old man putting on the new man, so there's always parallelisms in the New Testament about the this double aspect to the Christian life.

Okay so you mentioned some of these aspects of the armor of God mentioned in Ephesians chapter 6 and the one that really stands out, and they all stand out, but the belt of truth.

This is a foundational thing. What is the connection between having it belt of truth on for many Christians will read that and say what is that even mean I'm a Christian and I believe the truth but what he talking about Lord. When you say I need to put on the belt of truth will Christians of course are people who believe that Jesus said in John 17 God word is true. So God has deposited his truth in the holy Scriptures. Thanks be to college so that was we would know what is truth and what is left of truth what is relative. What is indifferent so Bible and explain what truth is.

And so is a Christian week we gird ourselves with with with the Bible really the Bible is our objective standard.

Our final authority for doctrine and life then we gird up the loins of our mind the lines of our heart. Believing this truth in her mind believe it in our heart, their inmost being and socially putting on the belt so it's not something you you you you put on just when you wake up at 7 AM and you take off 11 PM usage 24 seven the Christian to be constantly wearing this belt of truth. Everything I do everything I say everything even straight while I am to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience to the word of God enough that has tremendous ramifications. It means it all times. I as a Christian despite my feelings and to be striving to consciously intentionally tangibly live on this trajectory of truth always be asking one of the word say what is going to want me to do now wants to do what his word says, what does the word same the situation, rights, and in this cost to my Matthew chapter 4 where Jesus is tested in the wilderness and the way he cites the devil in the wilderness is with the word of God, but not just the word of God. He sheet the devil is also using the word of God. And that's that's something else we face.

We can get lies thrown at us through Bible verses five big because they may be taken out of context or they may be misapplying a situation wanting to draw from Matthew four in how the Lord fought Satan using the sword of the Spirit first principle there is that you will always go back to the word as we fight Satan that's that's our most that's our strongest defense of/offense of weapon that section both the sword of the Spirit of bunion of this wonderful picture in it that was progress work Christian is under the sword of the devil doubled, about to give one final ball and Christians laying in this valley of the shadow of death. Suddenly he reaches out his fingers and he grabs hold of the sword of the word of God and with one blow least rush Satan back in English feet away. She really graphic but what bunion saying this is really Matthew four when Jesus used the word that through the because order so much power that through Satan back on the field and so Jesus assigned this now you are to handle his temptations go back to the word for it is written, it is written, it is written, but through daily Bible study will. Jesus said if you continue in my word, then are you my disciple. So lifelong we say students of the word. And as we do so we Mormor learn how to apply the word we Mormor learn the dangers of taking on the context and we Mormor gain the skills of using the word in different life situations so that we really know says and how to apply it in a particular situation. That's a great point.

You can't use the word in an appropriate way. If you don't know the word. It's sort of very basic saying that that all Christians have to know the Bible. Now this is interesting to because you will see, sometimes on. Well let's just say different TV shows from time to time that you might pass by on your TV where fighting Satan is a matter of you know is some televangelist saying I you know I defy you and get out and I fight you and I curse you, and I when you think about that sort of a strategy somebody might be well-meaning but that is really not a biblical picture of how to fight the devil just by casting them out and telling me through what I mean. It is Christ who defeated Satan not not us right that's right that were were not Christ disrobe throw doubled all the people all kinds of stuff like that that that was his prerogative to his Almighty. The Puritans put this graphic is a graphic but helpful picture is that the Christian life is like like walking down a narrow walk picture narrow sidewalk and on the on both sides of the sidewalk are behind the hedges is thousands and thousands of devils along the way they've got their bows, strong, and are ready to be ready to shoot you all along the way. If you deli and you don't make progress.

You'll run the race it before you know that the rent strike you but you run the race. You keep running and your your girded in this armor from head to foot from from feet shod to the helmet of salvation on top your head so your your coverage are protected which are running the race that show as Thomas Watson said kids selecting work all the way to heaven. This is a battle your your your holy war. And so it's not just the metaphysical devil be gone. You know and know your your your fighting hand-to-hand combat is at work is your editor running the race absolutely and in something you see in the book as we can only defeat Satan. If we watch and pray, as the Lord told us to do we get drowsy if were not paying attention for falling asleep like the disciples, we are in peril our way.

That's right. And part of the reason is because we don't we don't know we don't realize most of the time and are very worldly, worldly culture, the truthfulness of center heinousness as soon began to godliness of sin, and because we don't understand the enormity of sin that we don't understand the enormity of God's grace is so we end up just kind of backsliding or walking lazily along in the Christian race thinking were were were fine, which of course insight will leave us alone because were no threat to him into his kingdom because were doing nothing of any value in the kingdom of God that sent now.

You'd mentioned the fact that we need to resist Satan with the word and also the promises of God, but the other aspect of that that you talk about is fleeing to our intercessor, Jesus Christ. But it would align the Dean of the sheep are no more safe than they are them when they are close by their shepherd.

This is like a two-pronged strategy really is and it is right that's right.

And the closer you are closer to arch pressure always always a favor is the need for constant prayer and constantly in the word because the prayer. The word is like to a conversation in a relationship to Christ. Absolutely right, Dr. Joel Beatty the name of the book fighting Satan, knowing his weaknesses, strategies and deceit listening to jam after today will be right back. This archived broadcast of Janet for today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet met and here's your show for Janet for today.

It was the ancient philosopher Plato believed that the good, the true and the beautiful are Celeste building at ins, operable ideas, and he argued in favor of the objectivity of such values.

Christians also have embraced these ideals, knowing that they are rooted in the very nature of God, but were living in a very un-objective age at the moment a time in which relativism guides much of man's thinking about what it even means to be human and this is unfortunately carried over into education. How can you educate a new generation properly.

If it is not interacting with these concepts of the good, the true and the beautiful to join me now is Dr. Steve Turley. He teaches theology, Greek and rhetoric at tall Oaks classical school in New Castle, Delaware, and he is Prof. of fine arts at Eastern University today were to be talking about his book. It is called awakening.

Wonder a classical guide to truth, goodness and beauty Dr. Turley.

It's great to have you here. Thank you for being with us much Janet for having me. Well, it's a pleasure.

Now this is interesting this'll I think stretch people's minds a little bit just remembering Plato's involvement with this particular concept that back a little bit to the time of Plato and what he believed about the true the good and the beautiful. Yeah it is a different world from the world were living in today.

I love your introduction for Plato, the world could be summarized in a wonderful phrase that scholars who called cosmic piety that this idea that the world filled with divine meaning and purpose and what that means is that every person born into the world is born into a world of divine obligation obliged to conform our lives into a harmonious relationship with the divine meaning and purpose and we we understand that meaning and purpose through primarily three ways the true the good and the beautiful truth communicates divine meaning and purpose to my intellectual capacities goodness communicates divine meaning and purpose to my moral capacities and beauty communicates divine meaning and purpose to my aesthetic and my emotional capacities and for Plato heat he saw objective values as absolutely necessary to bring those three aspects of our souls into a balance with one another. We we all know people role intellect but no no feeling no emotion that both Mr. Spock for the world we all know people who were all emotion and no thinking. I won't mention a million days. There Plato he wanted to see how do we get the intellect and the emotional side of the human person in balance and you do so by encountering this perfectly balanced cosmic value the truth, goodness and beauty. And you know that balance is occurred in the soul by their fruit by their ethical life by their fruit you shall know them some virtue became central to the educational project of Plato and so truth, goodness and beauty are cosmic values that communicate divine meaning to the intellectual, moral, and aesthetic capacities of the human soul which brings the balance of the soul, which in turn harmonizes the human person with that divine meaning and purpose of the cosmos, which was considered a prerequisite to human flourishing. Now when you consider what Plato's ideals were all about and how he would implement those.

It strikes me, and it strikes you as well in your book that we are living in very different times then Plato's times what you see. The big difference was between the context in which he was living and the context in which we are living now. Yeah the huge difference is the change in cosmology for Plato.

We lived in the divine world, but were living in a world that's been caught off from that divine meaning and purpose today were living in a world solely defined in terms of biological, chemical, physical calls for laws and as a result, the divine meaning and purpose that was once thought of as embedded in the world has been relocated purely to subjective prophecies, mere private belief, personal preference, and so now. Truth is whatever I wanted to be goodness is situational beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this is because largely were living in the time were we believe science reveals to us reality and faith is something that is purely personal and private.

Yes sir.

So now when you go from Plato to the time of the early Christians. How did Christians understand historically these concepts of truth, goodness and beauty because certainly these would be attributes rooted in the divine nature of God. That's right, and end up exactly how they catch them up into the Christian gospel. But then they allow the gospel to do with transforming work and radically alter these concepts to so Christians certainly affirm that all people born into a world divine obligation, but they introduce something wholly new by transcribing this cosmic piety away from the God than the planet from the celestial sphere. If you have the worship of creation, the Paul talks about Romans one, and instead they imputed solely onto Christ. The local, the new creation, the one in whom all things hold together the one through whom God is revealed as the infinite fountain of Trinitarian love and delight and under the soles of this radical recalibration of creation and the human person. So for Plato, the material world and the physical body were in fact impediments to experiencing the true the good and the beautiful, but for Christians the human souls. It was firmly fixed within the goodness of creation. It was inextricably linked to the physical body and instead of getting rid of the physical cosmos, which is what Plato wanted to do Christians affirm that Christ restored paradise. He brought paradise back into our mats and so you see the cross as the tree of life restored and the rivers of Eden are seen as re-recovered in the waters of baptism. The grain and fruit of the third day of creation are transformed in the bread and wine identified with the body and blood of Christ, so that creation and incarnation come together to restore relation with God and with one another and hence perpetuate the life of the world and the new creation while the piazza Christians they really control in all of this truth, goodness and beauty, but they will radically alter it by having it center run Christ seeking out the Gnostic sensibility go you back yeah lewdly it with work firmly physical creatures we belong in creation. Creation is good and it is holistic behold I make all things new.

And we lose this what you say, especially in education because historically when you go back and particular strains of education, especially if there was this idea that that was the purpose of education to pursue the true, the beautiful and the good from it what what exactly happened to us a number of things that go on. It takes a few hundred years to work itself out. But bottom line, I think knowledge change our conception of knowledge changed. I believe that the contradictory change but nevertheless it happened the idea that the only way I can really know is through some kind of scientific empirical verification. Everything else is mere private opinion and personal preference, and you combine that with the rise of the Industrial Revolution and the rise of secular status that's regulating that Industrial Revolution and an instant reinstituting a new education that's more interested in creating workers and skill than it is wisdom and virtue your good to have a complete different paradigm shift.

I think Louis CS Lewis sums up beautifully when he said the classical imagination had an education that answered the question how do I conform my soul to the divine meaning and purpose around me and the answer was through wisdom and virtue. Modern education answers very different question. It answers the question how do I conform this meaningless purposeless nature to my own desires and ambitions and the answer through tapping into those institutions that operate by the mechanisms of coercive namely science, technology in the state. Think of the stem subjects right absolutely and so all the all the aspirations that we we once longed for the true the good and the beautiful Satan effect disappear in this new educational project because no one's asking that question how the muscles find meaning and purpose create a very important really connected to discussion Dr. Steve Turley awakening wonder will be back on Jennifer today hi this is Kirk Cameron and I am honored to be partnering with the Ministry of pre-born to help moms choose life actor Kirk Cameron supports pre-born. My four oldest children were adopted. That is because of caring and compassionate people who help those young mothers choose life.

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Thank you so much for being with us. Dr. Steve Turley is my guest were discussing is called awakening.

Wonder a classical guide to truth, goodness and beauty and boy have times changed go back to the ancient philosopher Plato as we've been discussing saw this concept of truth, goodness and beauty being such an important transcendent trio of values that should be pursued.

And Christians also picked up on this theme to a greater degree rooted in the incarnation of Christ and the Trinity. But today, all bets are off and my guest has been very well but doctrinally I think that our conception of knowledge really has changed and what you say have been the really the aftereffects of negating this idea that that wisdom and virtue is an important part of education.

Well, it and its holistic systemic in terms of our society because we have bought into the idea that knowledge needs to be sequestered from what the classical imagination would've brought it together with we make the dichotomies of fact versus space knowledge versus belief science versus religion. And so the result now is that you can believe whatever you want when it comes to God, and gender. Increasingly raise you name it. You can believe whatever you want you can believe God is Jesus Christ who can believe God is the pinnacle it doesn't matter what you but you walk into a science or math classroom and you're going to be confronted with an unquestionable reality that the necessary prerequisite for cultivating skills that can then be used to increase economic growth and we need economic growth in the sense in order to more effectively conform reality to our desires and ambitions. CS Lewis said it said it very well.

Classical education cultivate wisdom and virtue. Modern education seeks to cultivate workers and skill and Lewis reminds us in the classical world. That virtue was for the freeman skills was for the slave blade that is very telling, especially applied in our own day, but you know it's interesting that you mention CS Lewis one of his famous works is the abolition of man and what would you see is the connection between this rise of relativism and the loss of what it means to be human because that something a lot of Christians especially have remarked upon the fact that man is losing his unique identity and all of this, the way things have changed. That's right. It again Very profound fantastic resource for your listeners. The abolition of man.

Peter craved hold of the bath book written in the 20th century on the modern day saying something from Peter Craig and in under 80 pages Lewis. Lewis does a fantastic job. His his major concern is that this modern turn that we've taken away from the transcendent value the truth, goodness and beauty inevitably reduce the human person to mere nature and he was very concerned about this because if the modern project is about conforming nature to our own desires and ambitions, and if we then realize that humans are basically nature you can start manipulating human yes and what if those Planned Parenthood videos don't prove that I don't know what could possibly good yeah yeah that's right will now when you look at the classical model.

For example, which is been very much embraced by Christians in the last I don't know couple of decades for sure. There is this really surgeons have interest in doing a better job of educating and incorporating these values of truth, goodness and beauty that rooted in the Trinity, rooted in the incarnation of Christ, what does that look like them in the classroom.

What is the difference between the way the secularist would instruct a child in the classroom. The way classical educator would do it great yeah again for the classical Christian educator were were starting from the premise that there is a fall concept that a fall and the soul has been disordered, and not just the soul.

Either the body the senses as well.

The whole human person has been cast out of Paradise and so the human in order to be truly human. We have to be in a way rightly put back together and so through the grace of God that comes to us through church and sacraments's word. We then as an extension of that begin cultivating the process of virtue formation that was lost in the garden central virtual courses trusting all the promises and provisions of God, thereby glorifying him as Creator Redeemer which frees us up. Consider the needs of others is more important than our own loving God, loving neighbor, filling the law so will focus on cultivating a moral imagination. The imagination here is seen as the integrated sensor for that that logical that intellectual, moral, and aesthetic sensibilities. The truth, goodness and beauty awaken and will focus on the tradition of cold, the redemption of the senses, which is which sees the senses have having fallen along with the soul, and so they need to be retrained, re-oriented away from the corner on the sensual and toward eternally true good and the beautiful, for the purpose then of literature, art, architecture, music and poetry is about sanctifying the senses in preparing the body for its future resurrection when Christ returns very different than modern education station is going to teach you to perpetuate the idea science and math are fact everything else is faith.

Science and math are knowledge. Everything else is belief, science gives off a true understanding of the world. Religion is a personal private thing that does not belong in the public square.

That's what modern education perpetuate ties and and what is the end result of all of this you get metal detectors in schools and media character for you know you character formation classes alongside Planned Parenthood sex ed.I bet you you end up not teaching children how to think in the final analysis, and not teaching children really and in the final analysis, how to have good moral character because it really really communicates to the next generation that you are something more than just a blob of cells which is seems to come up against the secularist mentality these days. Absolutely you. God I love the I love Paul: Romans 12 one and to offer your bodies as living sacrifices there that there is a sanctified sent work and don't be conform to the pattern of the world, but be renewed right by the transfiguration of the mind, body and together are are caught up in this redeeming glorious grace of Christ and if if it if it's not being drawn up into that grace. It's good to go into a counterfeit gospel in our counterfeit gospel today is the modern secular writers tell for sure that's well said one of the things that you talk about is getting students to really awaken wonder this is playing off your title in this field of aesthetics. What are you talking about you and talk about that a little bit.

Referring back to Plato but what is your objective here when you're trying to get students to think about the think about life aesthetically, yeah, were trying to get them the whole idea of statics is the idea. You know the contemplation of art and beauty, and image of that term contemplation is a beautiful term comes from the Latin condom party meeting thinking thoughts associate with the temple on Templar a very sacred consecrated thoughts and what you're doing if your your teaching students to begin to look at the totality of the created order as just that, a divine arena of God's glory.

That's one of the hardest things today for the modern mind to see the world many ways like a metaphor and so what will do his will train them to read stories as pointing to a wider story so will get them to.

For example, reads sleeping beauty and what sleeping beauty. Well, it's about a prince who contemplates a Dragon rescue for the bride and raises her delightful, wait a minute about that before how or Pinocchio story of transfiguration of the Little Mermaid is about the quest eternal life. They learn to see support as Paul thought of first Corinthians 9 it's a way of developing self-control and self-mastery and virtue. They look at science as a way of studying not just creation.

But even through chemistry and biology, the very body that Christ incarnated and is preparing for its total transfiguration when he returns so it's beginning to look at the tote lady of life around them as divine images of God's glory and what a difference that makes. In the final analysis, because that is the truth and it is a great book. It's called awakening. Wonder a classical guide to truth, goodness and beauty Dr. Steve Turley joining us today and it was wonderful to have me thinking so much. Dr. Turley. Thank you Janet, thank you again for being with us.

We appreciate you listening today.

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