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Petr Jasek (Imprisoned for Christ) Matthew LaMaster (Grace)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
December 27, 2021 4:30 am

Petr Jasek (Imprisoned for Christ) Matthew LaMaster (Grace)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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December 27, 2021 4:30 am

Imagine trying to help persecuted Christians in Sudan and ending up being persecuted yourself. That's what happened to Voice of the Martyrs' Petr Jasek, who spent 445 days in prison amid dangerous Muslim radicals - until the Lord rescued him. Petr will join me to discuss what he's learned about persecution and faithfulness from his book, "Imprisoned with ISIS: Faith in the Face of Evil." Plus: Pastor Matthew LaMaster discusses his book, "Of Guilt and Grace."That and much more on Monday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you in part by American underdog from Lions gate and the team that brought you. I can only imagine based on the true story of championship winning quarterback Kurt Warner American underdog. Rated PG parental guidance suggested.

Now playing our confidence is in Christ alone is no and ending up self. That's what happened to my next guest who was leading voice of the martyrs ministry in Africa and found himself arrested and sentenced to life in prison and caged up with cellmates whom he learns were members of the Islamic state Peter gastric spent 445 days in prison. Now he serves as was the martyrs global ambassador and he is out with a very powerful book about what he went through. It is called imprisoned with ice as faith in the face of evil Peter. It's wonderful to have you with us.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for the interview. They should all think it what little bit about your background as a Christian first. That's what really interested me as I was going through your book because a lot of people have heard about your imprisonment. Maybe not so much about your background you actually are the son of a pastor, your parents were actually monitored and interrogated by the secret police under communist Czechoslovakia. Can you talk a little bit about how your childhood shaped your own experience as a Christian, absolutely, you know, I'm thankful for the fact that I grew up in a Christian family, you know, even though we all know that we can help to inherit the kingdom of heaven. You have to be born into it. So when I was about 15 years old I was a freshman in high school you know a came to the conclusion that I really want to commit my life to Jesus that happened. Do you know when I was in the eastern Germany of the time. The summer youth camp and that was the moment when I made this decision shortly after that I asked my father, you know, to baptize me and quite short. After that the persecution in our family really started because my father was a pastor in the office at church about divorce, you know, the church was quite closely monitored by fictive belief that every church used to have 102 critical workers so she could believe to inform, to know about any suspicious activity in the church and that's why my parents decided to work around that in the unofficial underground church, which meant that you know a grave risk of the time and my parents were organizing a discipleship training for young people from various the nominations and I have to say that many of them were from no church of the time they were just believers in Jesus, and of course you know this became a and the focus in the viewfinder off of the secret police and the shortly after I was baptized and I was active in sharing the gospel among the monks. My schoolmates, and even the teachers at the high school I came home one day and I discovered that both of my parents were interrogated, arrested, they know in two different places for the same time and interrogated and I remember the time when my father returned home and so maybe scared to the time and so he went to his library and just gave me one book that he had there was in German language, but I was fluent in German of the time. In fact, English is my fourth language so that read this book and it was Richard Brown's book and got on the ground and he said read this book.

It will encourage your faith and I can save that off to Bible.

This is the second most important book I ever read in my life and it has changed my perspective from persecution when I read the boat which a brand and how the Lord will soon helping him to overcome in human beatings and in human culture brainwashing I stop being afraid of persecution. You know later on. I told about this book to my new brother in Christ, my schoolmate of the University you know who became also a believer in Jesus and I prepared him somehow for what he could experience as a Christian, and communist Czechoslovakia and he was deeply touched by this program.

We know from the book of Daniel that you know the Lord is the one who is setting up kings and removing kings.

This is in Daniel 221 and so you know, even though I never believed the communist dictatorship could ever finish in our country. It has happened in November 1989. Then we got freedom back for us. Those who have been once help by courageous believers from Western countries who were secretly bringing Christian literature and Bibles into Czechoslovakia. In fact, I got my first Bible when I could ever read and write the buyer that was so called by Dutch people to communist Czechoslovakia so we were set free, and we knew that there were still Christians were persecuted. We found that the white chalk. After the fall of communism and Czechoslovakia refounded the voice of the market in 1992, and it has been all but great privilege for me to serve those who are now persecuted because I have once experience what it meant to be served by others, and I think this is fully natural and I almost consider this a great privilege you know when the Lord gave me late on know the fact that you know the all opportunities to meet and interview will and late won't help believers who have not only lost their material things like houses being looted and destroyed the cars being burned. You know I met those who have also lost their beloved one brother, sisters, parents, children, but I had the special privilege to meet people whom I consider heroes of my face heroes of faith. Actually, you know those people who have also lost parts of their own bodies because they didn't want to know their Christian faith and from them. I have learned to know that they considered the persecution as a privilege from the Lord. That's the way how they understood and later on I had this also of the privilege to understand the from the first time. You know that persecution is an essential part of a Christian life.

You know that was what you experience on the communism and like all me know when I have this privilege to serve the persecuted church. I also had the privilege to suffer with them. Wow, what a story. There's just so much in there and I know people will want to read all about it in your book that you had actually been in Sudan before you are arrested, you use talk about different times that you had been there when you went the time that finally got you arrested and taken to prison.

What was your mission that day because you were only supposed to be there. I should say four days was the length of your guess at that time. What was your mission and objective on that particular trip.

You know I was supposed to document persecution. All individuals, as well as the whole congregation. I was supposed to interview one, the young Muslim background believers student who was supposed to be killed because you know it was and it is still a crime for Muslim to convert to any of the religion or abandon his Muslim faith is punished still in Sudan with death penalty and I saw the pictures of this young guy who was the turn of the burn because you know the fire bomb exploded in his hands, and I was so no touch by seeing his picture and I said I needed to just go and visit him in and document his injury so that the voice of the martyrs help him practically you know and his treatment, and social pictures off church buildings been completely demolished. You visit country of Sudan. At that time or now, you could see church buildings from any denomination you know you can see people going in and coming out and you can easily get the false impression that there is a religious freedom but that it is not, you know, and in fact you know those pastors who have been encouraging their church members to follow Christ's great commission to make disciples of all people, and it means also from the Muslim majority people will be arrested, interrogated, repeatedly arrested that if they still continue to do that they, their churches will be demolished and the bill was fine, you know, I mean the authorities. He always finds a reason.

Reason to to demolish their church building said that was what I was supposed to do there and I have successfully.

I would say accomplish everything what I wanted. The only problem was that I was closely monitored by secret police and one says that was there was no surprise in it. But you know when I go to rest here for first I thought it was just the kind of being a predeparture check that I have experienced times, and by consent patient. It wasn't in just a moment. We need to pause for a quick break. I think is with us talking about his book in prison with Isis will pick up the story after this on Janet hi everyone this is Janet hoping you had a wonderful Christmas celebrating the birth of our great Savior Jesus. Ecclesiastes chapter 3 says that there is an appointed time for everything, and there is a time for every matter under heaven. A time to be silent and a time to speak and so as we come to the end of 20, 21, I just wanted to let you know that my time to speak on Janet Mefford today is ending as well. I've been a nationally syndicated Christian radio host for the past 12 years including more than six great years hosting this show.

Now, I believe the time is right for me to move on to the next thing the Lord has for me to jail. The greatest blessing I've ever received in my life is my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And I've been really privilege to help keep you informed on the news and issues of the day and to try to offer you biblical encouragement from a Christ centered perspective. I want to think the owners and managers of all the wonderful Christian radio stations who have aired us all these years. I want to thank all our great sponsors as well in the ministries who have made this program possible. And most of all I want to thank you you tuned into the show, you financially supported the ministries you've heard about here and I know you've prayed for me and sent us so many encouraging emails.

Thank you. We truly are a family and I will really miss all of you, but you can still find me@janetmefford.com so I just want to encourage you from second Timothy for no matter what the future holds.

I would implore you to keep fighting the good fight. Finish the course. Keep the faith. Thank you again for listening to Janet Mefford today and God bless.

From what I can only imagine comes from American underdog.

So starting grocery shelves while trying to hold onto his dreams. You're listening to Janet Mefford today and while this is an incredible story. Peter yeah Scheck spent 445 days in prison in Sudan. He had been over in Sudan trying to help persecuted Christians and ended up being persecuted himself. He tells this really incredible story in the new book imprisoned with Isis faith in the face of evil Peter before we went to the break you were talking about the fact that you had been in Sudan for this four day trip and then you try to leave you were trying to help out. You know the church in Sudan and you were trying to leave and you were stopped at the airport. What happened what they say to you, you know, they spoke very broken English and you know that you say student security for lower so I'm in at first I didn't see anything strange in it.

So I fold them, but they took my cell phone, laptop, camera, video camera, all my equipment, my external hard drive so everything I have in my computer back and told the guy said they was speaking very bad angry so I started to speak. You are the languages that I'm speaking French, German, Russian. I know the significant belief been trained in Russia also. So they didn't speak any of these languages but then they call their supervisor who spoke English and then I miss my flight and the will of course I was transferred to the headquarters subsequent police where I was interrogated for nearly 24 hours. That was that was think that that when I saw them filling some papers. I was quite sure that this would not be a hotel reservation at that time so they took me to the first out of the five different prisons that I went through in the coming 445 days first four months were actually mainly for interrogations to sever interrogation by secret police and then they brought me before the judge, where I heard the crimes that I was accused of for and then was like seven different articles, but two of them. The first like espionage and trying to overthrow the regime in Sudan.

I was actually facing death penalty for that and I think that when I heard know through the interpreter.

The death penalty.

It was something that kind of change my view. One of the whole situation. I realize it's getting really serious and often these I was transferred to another prison, and then you know another four months so very long and detailed prosecution by the prosecutors, you know that preparing the court case enough to eight months. Eventually, we were pulled before the court for the court case lasted six months, you have the time when we went through the court hearing so you know it was a kind of sort of tragicomedy you know actually sometimes the power went off, and everything had to be adjourned. You know, it just reminded me some of the political court session so that they did in communist Czechoslovakia 1950s, but that at the end of that. I was sentenced to life imprisonment.

I somehow expected that because the way how they portrayed us to the pro-government newspapers was obvious that they will punish us severely and my two Sudanese brothers. They were sentenced to 12 years of prison but the Lord was in control and that's something that people who will read my book imprisoned with Isis faith in the face of evil will realize from the very first pages of the book the mayor to sway in the supernatural way how the Lord was preparing me for that time and you know he was in control to the last day of prison and that that's a wonderful thing to know, and I would say that the same President Bush here who marked me as a criminal that needed to be punished. He was the one who actually pardoned me within a month after I was sentenced to life imprisonment. You know we read in the book of Proverbs that the Lord is directing the heart of the kink like the river or river bed of the river in the direction he wants. I credit to the Lord and the course. The prayers of many faithful believers who were faithfully praying for me and they were not only praying they were also doing something they were signing different electives and sending them to various Sudanese embassies around the world. They were signing on long petition and will affect there was one petition organized by the NGO from Spain to go that collected nearly half a million of signatures from all over the world demanding our release and the Lord is the one when he opens no one can close as that was what happened and you know to the last moment I could clearly see the Lord being in control. While it's amazing the whole story is just incredible. Like you said how the Lord prepared you and how you took every opportunity that you had to share the gospel when you're talking about being imprisoned with Isis, though that's a particularly difficult situation and that's an understatement. Really, what you went through because you have these in a radical Muslim man who made you what turned toward the toilet when they were doing their prayers.

They eventually beat you didn't they end and some terrible things were done to you.

How did you endure all that I the first and hardest lesson lesson that I have learned all all the lessons that I learned during these 445 it was the Lord's trends can be manifested in our weaknesses. That's what Paul's talks about in second Corinthians 12 timeframe when I am weak, then I'm strong to know I lost within the first three months like a 55 pounds of my body weight is the first month I have lost literally half of my blood through internal bleeding.

So being moment heavily in the anemic. You know, I appear to be at the bottom of my physical as well as emotional stress.

And yet, in this you know what I was really concerned about my mental health not that much about my life like mental health I was praying and asking the will please keep my mind sound and yet these in this weakness. I was able to share the gospel with these Isis guys pray for them and not only share the gospel with words but also with my attitude. You know like the Lord you set that we should turn up the other cheek when they beat us into one and I can tell you honestly, that's not my normal nature, but that's was not needed was Jesus and me was able to turn my other cheek when they were beating me but condescended these people work young people could be my sound highly educated from various countries and in a like for instance one of them was the Libyan guy who at the age of 12 was a person The Bodyguard Osama bin Laden Laura that he was highly respected by all the they used to call him a man of sort and let you know I thought it was because of him being a bodyguard of Osama but later on when he was transferred to the neighboring so I found all the true reason why he was called mental sort. He was one of the murderers who beheaded the 20 Coptic and one African Christian in Libya in the beginning of February 2015 flight to insure the cell with me beckoning me also. But the Lord gave me the special grace also to share the gospel with payment and to pray in my prayers. You know Christianity is the only religion that is teaching his followers to love their enemies, for instance, Matthew 544 but I say to you, you set. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute so I always encourage people not to be filled with hatred and obey when they read my book, but filled with prayers for those who need to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior and got and I also encourage people to pray for those six I members who shared with me the so were slandering me beating me and torturing me, but the Lord has delivered me from their midst. You know when they were just about to start torturing me with waterboarding and let you know that was a moment when I had the feeling like Daniel when he was taken out off a lion's den. The only difference was that we read in the Bible that the Lord has kept the mouth of the lion shock, but their mouths were wide open in shock when I was taken from their midst, and you know they could not believe that I was taken and that was how the Lord has rescued me and later on use me to share the gospel with many other people in the following prison system. Amazing how do you look back on that experience, having been released two years ago now. How has it changed you as a Christian. I'm sure there are many many ways. But what if you were to pick 1 Particular Way in which the Lord has a transparency. I think 48 tenant says, behold, I have refined and tested in the furnace of hooch and you know if you come through any type of sufferings and persecution.

It's like a refining furnace. You know, and the fourth you know Bible talks about refining his people through fire fire of affliction and you know this is certainly the main wind all think of these Isis people into this trial is that, like with the their similarity with the precious metals you know that the point of melting and refining.

Because of the precious metals in fire is that they believed gets rid of everything that is not genuine so I can honestly say that I got rid of everything that was genuine my life and it's not a list of things that you do when you are not supposed to do, but it's also that you are supposed to do certain things and you are not doing them. First of all, you know, I was also convicted by the Holy Spirit when I realized how people were praying for me. You know, people can read about that in my book. You know how I could to experience the effects of prayers of many people, so I got convicted, for instance by Holy Spirit. How often someone asked me to pray for him and I said yes yes you know I will keep you in my prayers.

This is kind of just a normal Christian social pray for safe. I will keep you in my prayers. But I realize that when I say that it means that I will fervently for pray for that person and I said I when I will be released, I will encourage many of the people to pray for our brothers and sisters were going to persecution because I have experienced the direct effects of their precious my goodness what a Lotta lesson to learn, and a difficult way to learn it, but it's just an encouraging story is a hard story to difficult story for those of us who have never walked where you walked but I think that this is can be a lifeline for Christians in the future. I really do.

It's called imprisoned with Isis faith in the face of evil and it's from Peter Yashin just so good to have you here, Peter. God bless you and thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you, thank you for being here will be back on Janet Mefford today. After this this archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you in part by American underdog from Lions gate and the team that brought you.

I can only imagine based on the true story of championship winning quarterback Kurt Warner American underdog. Rated PG parental guidance suggested. Now playing Janet Mefford today and here's your host Joe Mefford. If you have ever read through the entire book of Joshua you'll know about a particular chapter that is especially striking and that is chapter 7.

The account of Aikins and now what does that account have to do with us what does it say to us about the seriousness of sin and the importance of repentance and what is it say about God's grace to us in Jesus Christ. These are all very important questions and really talk about it today with Mattie Lemaster who is pastor of southern Heights Christian church in Anderson, Indiana, also an editor at theology magazine and his book which we will be discussing is called of guilt and grace. 10 lessons from Aiken about sin and salvation. It's wonderful to have you with us. Thanks for being here, grab me on an honor and I love your show and I'm excited to talk about an important topic you're so nice. It's my honor to have you here. Thank you so much for doing it. Really glad to see your book and because the reason I'm saying that is because I think 18 is kind of an underreported character in Scripture.

But such an hotel you think. I mean, but so important to this topic of sin and I'm wondering how you decided we we really need to go back and look at Aiken when were examining the topic of sin.

Well, that's a good question. You're so right remote from most people don't you know that person probably know the story or do they don't really understand it. Or maybe you are talkative, all time and there was preaching through the book of Joshua number years ago and not preaching through it and I you know when you're preaching or looking a couple weeks ahead. Ideally impose preaching and I don't think they are no Processes, I don't know how I get a free shot, but I got an you know what it was in my book, is largely a lot out of Genesis from that sermon I preached and I had so many people from our church that came up map that sermon and they just thanked me for more than they usually do, and they they were so grateful for it and I thought you know what a shame that so many people skip over the maybe more difficult worktop passages in Scripture like this one because that difficulty that you get good through that by climbing up the mountain that you get the view and until you're willing to work through those tough passages your you're missing out on what got out kind of a little bit of how I got to write on this story in particular you know but I think the doctrine and the biblical teaching on tenant is so under talk today and it is a travesty and it is frankly just damnable and awful. It is that the pressing concern in my mind. Also, I'm all absolutely you couldn't be more right about that. So, without going into Joshua seven and reading every single part of it because I want to take too much time away from my let's summarize here because here's Aiken. The Israelites were unfaithful in regard to the devoted things that they had gotten the spoils of war.

Here Aiken had taken some of the booty for himself and hid it in his tent, but he is one of the leaders here, of the tribe of Judah, to what extent does that weigh in on the seriousness of his scent.

I think it weighs them there so many ways that we you know he think of.

He was an example to a lot of the younger people in a tribe you know you know you their young men in my church and my droid after that and I one of the things I try to encourage the older guys do, take a week and cut up work with them and you think of like an older gentleman who had everything we know about Aiken. He was a war hero family man.

He was respected. He was a steam you think of the next generation. Underneath them that they could easily follow his example and you also think of his own family and how he led them like I really believe he led them into the destruction let his own tribe into the instruction which in turn effect on the rest of Israel. So I think the fact that he wasn't just that he was somebody send all of that in itself a significant you're so right that because he was a leader that fell and the hand that got was foreboding for the rest of the nation.

Well, I did not end well for him this amine. This is he actually admits that he did what he did but he ends up getting stoned and I know any time stoning is involved. It's very upsetting even for Christians to discuss it because they think that's just not polite, we don't want to go back to those unpleasant passages in the Old Testament, but we have to because this was such an offense unto the Lord, that this was the appropriate punishment explained that the firm on her ears to hear. Well, he came forward and he admitted that he did it.

Why was the punishment for Aiken so severe all good question that we should start with what was then, and maybe should start despite unpacking what it meant that I grew up and really very borderline, fundamental back about Troy. Why get grouchy, but where we we would memorize another 10 Commandments, and we have got to get in.

So I think maybe people who have that background, we can think about breaking one of the law is that I mean Aiken lighting install murder was unfaithful to the Lord that idolatry is only thing that he did do not break the law could be absolutely did, but it also that he is also the problem with that is not what we do to the problem was sent in two weeks and again's and so it wasn't just that Aiken Ronco brothers, although that would've been fears the greater it was that you wrong, the God of Israel, you know, and so sin is called RC Sproul for causing treatment.

It is shaking your fist at the career of all things seen and unseen, and so to talk for Aiken to for anybody but especially for Aiken is not just that he did something wrong, it's who he did something wrong to us and then have the not done in a vacuum. You know if it takes place between us and God. Because God is infinite, the consequences first right so that is that is that serious nature behind them. As far what will I think that such a question that people have when it comes passages we came forward. Why do you get let off the hook.

There's a difference between coming forward because you feel your conscience pricked and there's anything coming forward and because you are changed and between coming forward because your you know you can call guide children but not sorry they are sorry that they got caught yet and I think that was the situation at any point, taking a step forward with what he did. Yes he could step forward for them, like other people that can step forward one after it like other people.because that forward during the day of mourning for any point but basically wait until the last possible moment rights wasn't until there was one until people basically already knew something he admitted what happened, even then it even then. I think if you would've had heart change, he could have been forgiven, but there is no there's no indication in the Bible that you actually yeah and it seems that he was stubborn and resistant. Well it done right know I am a mother so I understand for kids. I can understand what you're talking about here. When the sign identity know we understand getting caught and being repentant are not necessarily the same things and do different. There are two totally different things and and this brings us to another important parts of this entire discussion and that is repentance leading us to God's forgiveness really come back with Matthew Lemaster of guilt and grace is his book you're listening to Janet Mefford today will be right no matter when this is the end of the story of a young mom who plan to end her pregnancy but chose life after visiting a pre-born center pre-born steps into the lives of hurting young women who were being told that a pre-born baby is not a life pre-born is the largest provider of free ultrasounds in the country and the direct answer to Planned Parenthood helping young moms choose life. I feel like it was meant for me to head this is something I need a reason you can be a part of choosing life with young hurting women across the country which you join with pre-born in Janet Mefford today to help save 400 babies by the end of the year for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help save five babies from abortion and now through match your gift of $140 will actually help save 10 babies instead of five.

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These words written early in John's Gospel remind us in this Advent season that God sent his son to be our Lord and Savior that many Christians in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have never read those words or the Christmas story in Luke two why because they have no access to the Bible. So in this season of giving. Please join by the league in sending God's word to Bible as believers around the world for only five dollars or $50 for 10 Bibles $500 for 100 call 801 ESW ORD. That's 800 yes word or there's a Bible league banner and Janet Mefford.com changed to foreign yes somebody's somebody that's 800 YWO RT or there's a banner to click Janet Mefford.com you're listening to Janet Mefford today though. Welcome back so that happy with us and great to have with us. Matthew Lemaster he's pastor of southern Heights Christian church in Anderson, Indiana and author of of guilt and grace. 10 lessons from Aiken about sin and salvation. Taking us back to the book of Joshua, always important to go back and reread it if you haven't read it recently. This is a very important passage in one Matthew which you pointed out is not often preached.

Upon thing I've ever heard a sermon on Aiken's and this is important. This is a really really important subject, but on the issue of sin you a lot to say when you're going to your different lesson.

Some people can read about it in your book, but one of the first things you say is that sin is anything but simple wheat we have this mindset. What I do is just to be done and then no one will know and hopefully no one will find out and if somebody does find out I'm just gonna kinda minimize it or Dodge or what have you.

What you see in the story of Aiken about the complexity of sand that it's not simple. It's not just a matter of I will disobey God and just move on with my life. No thank you again for having me on it and I think it's something that we don't recognize now is how how complex and how variegated how far you know if you for example if you that one of the really important for young couples are engaged in premarital counseling to realize just how deep their sin patterns are in a good and good premarital counseling. You will, they will be able to confront them about themselves and their spouse. But you can always tell when a couple of not gotten the most out of criminal counseling for five years after marriage takes up long you just see the complete breakdown of their lives out there should their sin leave them to into their further into themselves like you more lonely than what you dissect, you say okay will who got fault marriage, the husband or the wife why I've yet I know there are some smart either or. Typically, both in the menu unveil you unpacked out farther and you start to see patterns of behavior patterns that sin that go back generations and generations yet when we talk about so that you have parents, grandparents on uncle, nieces, nephews, cousin thousand and laws the kids the dog. You know all about all of that all of the individuals have said that getting put into the pot together and and that boils over into the lives of everyone there but one when we talk about sin, we just talk about it in such simple term and we we don't take the time to unpack it and parse it.

You know my my dad always have the my dad always have a good thing about one you talk to someone is never trust what divorce he has to say about their style little proverb because they will only see what the other person wrong, but what they did officer and I saw my life situation where you could unpack that. I think that we we think about that in such simple terms, but not so complex and we have time to parse out figured out house for sure, this issue is admitting your sin versus repenting for your sin. We think a lot about David and David. What he did. Having Uriah killed and committing adultery with Bathsheba and his child died and you know against you only only you only have my Sandia week. We see this is a marvelous example of true repentance and it was but what do we need to talk about more in the church. When we look at the lack of preaching on sand. The lack of confession of sin, the lack of really taking sin as seriously as we ought to take it as believers in Jesus Christ. How do we remedy that I means I know it's simple. In a sense that we just need to understand we are sinners. Even though we are forgiven through Jesus Christ and his shed blood in his resurrection. We understand God's grace in Jesus Christ, but we still need to be cognizant of sin because we were continually having to repent not only to the Lord, but also to other people get back to that this these old paths to view absent all your right out of an older and older capital well. A well trodden a good one.

You know, first, I think maybe she just say the important of what why if it is really what it is what we said it is vital for the Anderson is so difficult and complex. What, what's the benefit of the event going into detail, figuring out and the reality is, until you understand just how deep your stand and deeper than we know until you understand that you will never understand salvation. So until we really understand where were at all until we really understand just how guilty we are and we will never understand what it what it was that God forgave us in Christ and think we have to start their were not.

I'm not. I'm not a masochist right I not like a gloomy guy. I I don't dislike beating up on people all the time.

But the reality is you can't give people good until they recognize just how bad the situation really yes and so I think people think the remedy is the first that has to be we have to recognize that if we really want to preach the gospel if we really want to see years old and old paths were good to get tossed around as much today.

The revival in our churches and in our nation and we want to see people repentant turn to the Lord. We want to do that for our for our children and her grandchildren. We have to if we really want to see the gospel bear fruit. We have to talk about them. We understand just how deep we never understand just how good salvation writes oh that's perfect timing. That's exactly what we learned in Scripture when it talks about the fact that the law was given so we would know what sin was answer schoolteacher to lead us to Christ. It's the basics but boy do we need to go back to the basics, because in a lot of contacts. All were hearing is not a self-help trouble and that can have you.

You know you you cannot play and turn on Dr. Phil for five minutes and you might get something out of it, but that's a far cry from the kind of biblical preaching that we need to hear every week when you go to church, whether it's in out whether it's in the Old Testament preaching and talking about someone like Aiken or whether it's talking about the woman caught in adultery. We have to really wrestle with is that we are saved by grace. And this brings us to the important point that you cover in the book, which is grace is available every step of the way and I love what you say. This is the way you put it in your book you said our God is not just a God to pardon sinners. He's a God who pursues centers can't talk about that just for a minute or two because I just I can't get over Jesus. I really can't every every time I get a good reminder like that. I'm so thankful for your thank you and I appreciate even talking about all that got it done for me, give me you know I want to thank me about Aiken story is not just what he did not, but it didn't come forward confession with your all involved. All of that is just awful and all the consequences that are sent out on family and on friends and on country that I genuinely believe that even before Aiken was done, that God had given specific instruction for someone who broke the law like he gave very specific instruction on how to deal with the most tragic thing about that is that Aiken didn't want there was salvation there is grace is forgiveness. There and Aiken didn't want it and what God was doing by bringing Aiken out the open was trying to offer that and Aiken turned his back on and you can't you know I I can't help but think probably there people who were looking at the show right now who maybe they been caught by your spouse or their some patterns of behavior in their lives are coming out.

Think about or their dirty dealings that worker or something has come out about them… Great… Showing our need for salvation and the realities were meant to learn from Aiken example. Not that we repeat what he did but so that we do.

The thing is not that we take salvation that he wanted claim and that my hope for anyone look it's grace have to leave it there but again the name of the book is guilt and grace.

10 lessons from Aiken about sin and salvation by Pastor Matthew Lemaster is so great to have you here. Matthew great book and it was just wonderful to talk to thank you for being with us how you're welcome. God bless you, thank you for joining us on for today and we will see this our team effort today to impart by American underdog lines. I can only imagine that America parental guidance is just plain


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