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Robert Reilly (The Founding) Chip Ingram (Your True Self)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
December 10, 2021 4:00 am

Robert Reilly (The Founding) Chip Ingram (Your True Self)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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December 10, 2021 4:00 am

Some political philosophers claim America is in crisis because its foundation was built upon the Enlightenment. But what is the true lineage of the ideas, including the truth about God, that made America possible? Robert Reilly, director of the Westminster Institute, joins me to talk about his book, "America on Trial." Plus: Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, discusses who we are in Christ. His book is called, "Discover Your True Self." That and more on Friday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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Baby that's 855-601-2229 or visit reference to our confidence is in Christ alone, I saw you know self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and The Pursuit of Happyness in its principles like those that are founders espoused that let our Republic as we know into becoming the freest, greatest and most prosperous nation on earth. Yet, as my next gas points out a number of thinkers today dispute America's lineage and say that American principles are responsible for the moral and social disintegration of our nation. The reason they say it's because her principles were based on the Enlightenment falsehood of radical individual autonomy. But is that really true or to find out today with my guest, Robert R. Riley he was Senior advisor for information strategy for the US Secretary of Defense directed the voice of America and served in the White House as a special assistant to Pres. Reagan is now director of the Westminster Institute and author of several great books, including his latest called America on trial a defense of the founding Mr. Riley just wonderful to welcome you back. How are you going to be with you again well I love this book. I just couldn't put it down because I'm glad you're refuting some of these thinkers were making these claims. Can you fill people in a little bit about this current debate was very hundred you could gain so much traction today.

I'll just tell you a little anecdote about my oldest son was now serving as an officer in the Marine Corps as last year as a Catholic University. The political science class professor was teaching a point of view on the American founding, that it was morally contaminated and therefore led to the kind of moral disarray under generation that we experience today terms of abortion and pornography, same-sex so-called marriage transgender is on the list goes on and it wasn't as if he offered this is one of variety of views. This was the view he pushed though. At the conclusion of his class. Convince the majority of the students and one student asked a very acute question.

He said okay, you've convinced us what are we supposed to do now my course resisted this not only because he disliked it because he knew himself that this was an incorrect teaching, but what is you know what I try to do in my book is take it on in several ways directly refuting out saying let's see the evidence you found in the American founding image documents and the statements of the founders themselves that this radical individual autonomy was there and I I parse their statements. That is of the critics and I used to principally examples of general arguments made in this way and show that they simply isn't there are in fact quite the opposite is and so I understand why people are driven to this point of view because they need some explanation for how it goes. We have found ourselves in this morally degraded condition, but my point is you know is that this isn't because of the founding hits in spite of it right. It is a rejection of the principles of the founding in our best bet strategy today is not to reject the founding of the book to return to its principles, exactly where getting this argument from when they're making this argument.

For example, that you know the moral contamination goes back to our founding how the world today even formulate that argument. I always thought it was pretty much understood that the founders had their roots in natural law, nature's God, and an understanding of the Bible to an extent, even though were not an explicitly Christian nation. How that will how are they making this argument, what are they bringing up to try to underscore their point, which is obviously faulty. While they make the case by saying that, of course, there was a radical Enlightenment that did positive.

This radical autonomy of the individual that didn't deny the existence of natural law that did make man's will primary and we could see the fruition of that, of course, in the French Revolution, which is why I dedicate a chapter of the book and comparing the French and American revolutions to illustrate so clearly that the one was the obverse of the other the same revolution. They were antithetical to each other and some of the critics who say that we were we were a poison pill from the beginning. Try to make the case that really we are the same as the French Revolution, you know that the fruit that the trust manifested itself. A little later so it's kind of post hoc ergo proctor heart argument because this was a period of radical enlightenment.

The American founding, must be a product of another way they do it or say John Locke will undoubtedly a big influence on the American founding was in fact temporally Hobbs with a smiley face, the right of the author of the Leviathan Hobbs who justified the absolute sovereignty of the state. The absolute power of the state and the clock was just short of any kind or version of Hobbs so I have to kiss probably spend a couple chapters in the book debunking that point of view that in fact look at the type of political regime that would be constructed on the basis of Hobbs's principles, which is an absolute state versus those that would be built on Locke's principles which would be a constitutional representative democracy rains so you've got all of these anomalies on which this view is based. Good sort of like the founders didn't really know what they were doing. They were in the control of ideas over which they had no control or even not they were of which they weren't fully cognizant so they built worse than they knew that now you think of me were they stupid or that are within rascals I mean you had. You have to come up with some rather strange suppositions about them. What they did as you quote it at the top of the show Janet that they we hold these truths to be self-evident, not we hold these values are. We hold these opinions know these true that are transcendent that have their source in God and the laws of nature which are immutable and therefore are true at all times, everywhere, for all people and the American revolution was based explicitly on these transcendent troops. This would happen in recent times, as we see even in Supreme Court decisions. Opinions that are of the obverse of this deny them from potentially Justice Anthony Kennedy's arguments on abortion and sodomy and same-sex marriage. He uses the term repeatedly.

The autonomy of the individual, as if that term was used anywhere in the American founding person was of no so he sees the reticle. This radical autonomy in the founding leading manufacturers are and uses it to overthrow the state laws of the United States and these certain Christian conservative critics say yup Kennedy's right in saying that there the differences we don't like what it is it what it has produced and he does yes exactly, you can you mention that you talk about people like Roger here with the Benedict option. People like Russell Moore and that's that's are a really important point because even if you're saying I'm against it to see it in the way that the critics see it is to misunderstand the true lineage, as you point out in your block of America's founding and what really the ideas were that really did fuel the founding of America, and I think that's a really really key point working to go to a break, but working to talk more with Robert Riley about his book. It is called America on trial a defense of the founding you're listening to Jennifer today were to come right back. Stay with us. This is Janet Mefford for Bible league international. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. These words written early in John's Gospel remind us in this Advent season that God sent his son to be our Lord and Savior that many Christians in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have never read those words or the Christmas story in Luke two why because they have no access to the Bible. So in this season of giving. Please join by the league in sending God's word to Bible list believers around the world for only five dollars or $50 for 10 Bibles $500 for 100 call 801 ESW ORD. That's 800 yes word or there's a Bible leave the inner and Janet seen people changed description for this to Jeff one. Yes, somebody's in this gift you can give somebody that's 801 ESW LRT or there's a banner to cling Janet Every day babies and their mothers swims are fighting for life, with abortion being the leading cause of death.

I only media I was in the middle to the Ministry of pre-born has pregnancy centers nationwide standing by to help young moms in crisis. Choose life freeborn is the largest provider of free ultrasound sessions in the country by letting the mother see her baby in the womb and hear the baby's heartbeat.

She's 80% more likely to choose life for her baby. When I was in their training is only my ultrasound is lightning anywhere faces these ligands to start crying I can and sometimes the blessing is doubled. Would you join with pre-born in Janet Mefford today to help save 400 babies by the end of the year for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help save five babies from abortion and now through match your gift will be doubled to donate dial 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to click Janet you're listening to Janet Mefford today and know you're welcome back great to have you with us in great-aunt with us. Robert R Riley he is out with a wonderful new book it's called America on trial a defense of the founding were talking about this mistaken idea that some of these critics have about the lineage of America and you in this book to a really great job of telling the truth. I think about the founding and and the ideas that led up to the founding and you talk a little bit about Kathleen's Jerusalem and Rome.

Can you talk a little bit about the essentials of those three cities that influenced our founding. I think you know the main body of the book is tracing the true lineage of the America of the founders of the ideas that made the American founding possible without which it would would not of been conceivable in the art ideas from the radical Enlightenment and I simply point out the heritage of classical Greece and the gift of philosophy, the primacy of reason in the sense that the Greek philosophers discovered the our minds can apprehend reality that we can know not to simply have an opinion about it and that in this examination, we discover in order in nature and one naturally asks what what what is the source of this disorder that suits the rational order or reason can know it and I think it was Heraclitus was the first Greek philosopher who said goose got to be a divine intelligence behind which it is an expression and he used the word.

The Greek word logos to say what this intelligence was for food Greek word for reason and we know that from Jerusalem what the great contribution was of monotheism that there is one God, not many of this took place in the sea of policy as there was no other culture in the Middle East. Food that offered this idea that there is only one God and unlike the Palacios the Jews, so this one God has revealed himself as transcendent and that he is made the world from nothing and he is made, it welded it's good in others demiurge of evil and one of good contending fighting over creation and that which may lapse at any moment into primeval chaos.

Don't know God said Yahweh said what is made is good and we know from Genesis that most particularly the man he made is good because he made man and nature. In his own image and likeness and we like that we could find in Genesis the foundation of Western civilization absolutely no one else would put it the idea that were made in God's image and likeness is is so startling so revolutionary that of course wrong. What I Christianity sort of married Greek philosophy and Jewish monotheism in the startling revelation of Christ, who is sort of logos comes walking through the door logos about whom the Greeks had speculated is incarnate, sir, and enters history and reveals himself as love and making a sacrifice for the salvation of man and therefore the ministry of man is revealed in the infinite love of God, making man even more precious as each individual person. This was the foundation of a new civilization and we as you know in the book. I spent a chapter on the Middle Ages, showing how these influences created Christendom in which constitutional government first developed developed first in the church through canon law and then sort of leeched into the secular sphere in the early parliaments. This was this is going to surprise many people who think the Middle Ages is part of the dark ages when they see the articulation of the equality of all people embrace the generally accepted that the people are sovereign. There's no such thing as the divine right of kings in the Middle Ages and I idea completely foreign to it and because of equality and popular sovereignty. There is the requirement of consent mentioned by Thomas Aquinas and all the thinkers of the Middle Ages. Since man is equal and since he's a rational creature he must consent in his rule, even if he is ruled by a king there, there has to be consent that the person being the king and in a covenantal relationship that makes the king subject to the agreement through which he has become king, and if he breaks that agreement goodbye. King Thomas Aquinas said there's a right to revolution against tyrants, but also this equality sovereignty included representation so that in the bodies that would decide these things, affecting all representatives from the constituent parts could come empowered to vote and make decisions and even in church councils. It was the origin of the two thirds rule is adopted and so many legislatures and this was just this was generally accepted in the Middle Ages, imperfect and practice, but there are, in principle, and one would think well this is just going to keep developing and why didn't we have a continuous development from there to the American founding itself. That night I speak of what derailed those development and it was in the late Middle Ages it will all involved to get into a short program but William of Ockham and his denial of this primacy of reason and then Luther in the Reformation who severs the connection between faith and reason undermines the foundations of Christendom and leads to unintentionally on his part. I would say but nonetheless leads to the deification of the state and the absolute state there's no longer the distinction between the secular and the sacred.

The two swords the. The distinct spheres that that there there was a dual shop man was subject to sovereigns the secular sovereign in the sacred sovereign who was food. Of course, the bishops and the Pope.

Now you only had one sovereign, because the Prince was also the head of the church is led to absolutism as it developed into the divine right of kings, and in the secular manifestation through Thomas Hobbes, the Leviathan, which was simply a secular absolute state that had control of everything and just to sum this up. The American founding, was a reaction THAT yes send a reconnection Areva advocate vacation with those medieval constitutional principles so that I just articulated for you.

I should mention, just briefly, that every one of those principles that I mentioned a quality sovereignty of the people requirement of consent, the right to rub representation and the rights revolution were all explicitly denied by Luther's interesting.

There's just so much here, which is why people have to read your book so that the bottom line. Then as you talk about is the question that needs to be answered is whether laws, the product of reason, which is meaning that you know what is right flows from something objective versus the primacy of will is law the product of will, which is that it flows from power. I mean in some regard.

That's really what were up against. Right now in the moral and social disintegration of America that that's kind of where the divide seems to be. Let me give you an example of a Barack Obama in his book the audacity of hope said this quote implicit in the constitutions structure and the very idea of ordered liberty, was a rejection of absolute truth, the infallibility of any idea or ideology or theology organism and any tyrannical consistency that might block future generations into a single, unalterable course" so in other words, the truth does not set you free. The truth enslaves you. Therefore, freedom today requires the rejection of objective truth which is what Obama was saying there is a rejection of the American founding's grief. Liming spoken like a Marxist rain coming. That's kind of the direction you're going to have spoken as a progressive man who thinks he's riding the wave of history that there are no immutable laws of nature that everything is a product of its own time and we can change things and we can perfect man ourselves. We don't need to know any man who can appear at Planned Parenthood convention that organization being the principal provider of abortions in the United States today and say to the assembled members. God bless you this as inverted so many moral truths that it's astonishing yes what we have two will pose that is the founding itself that is the thing to which we can appeal in which we of course have our Christian faith in the truth articulated there, but we know that that's about the way to win an argument in the public sphere people so I don't. I'm not a Christian or not at You so so go away, but it's harder to tell the founding to go away because this country would have to go away exactly like you know that such a perfect point tonight. I think you've done such a brilliant job outlining your argument in detail.

He really like I said at the outset, I couldn't put this book down again. The name of it is America on trial in defense of the founding terrific book by Robert R.

Riley has been kind enough to join us again, and 100. Thank you so much Mr. Riley for being here is so great to be with you. God bless you and thank you to look back on Janet Mefford today is Janet Mefford today podcast is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855601. Baby that's 855-601-2229 or visit Janet Mefford today and here's your host Joe never therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation the old has passed away. Behold, the new has come. I love that verse second Corinthians 517 this is what God tells us it's great news. The problem is many of us find it difficult to articulate, or even to fully understand what it really means to be in Christ, and that can impact our understanding of who we are as Christians. That's why Ephesians chapters 1 through three or so encouraging and my next test is going to help us understand what it means to be in Christ, Jamie, now Chip Ingram teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge to talk about his book discover your true self, how to silence the lies of your past and actually experience who God says you are that says it all.

Chap, it's great to have you here. How are you thank you and it's great to be with you.

Thank you confusion do you think Christians have about what it means to be in Christ. I don't mean this is critically at might sound, but I think in general were pretty clueless. I think it unconscious, but I think there is this here's all the things I need to do and I need to pray for long read the Bible for long do activities one, two and three and I think we live for God's approval functionally rather than from God's approval in his love, and this this was a complete life changer for me and my wife and as a result a lot of other people I I fit that first category for many, many, many years now what you think was the source of your own confusion about it and how have you worked your way through it as you've especially as you preach through Ephesians yeah I you know I think coming to grips with you. It's amazing how theology really is important, and we all have these mirrors and we have mirrors a family of origin that say your love and accept it, or you belong. If you do the certain things or if you perform a certain way and in our parents are human were human and I think we have you a culture that screams you know advertisement is built around. I'm going to tell you something that you are not okay until you have whiter teeth drive disk on a car or your here's that color or you get to go to that concert or your kids get to that school. Or, you know you're very athletic, as I think we we live in a world of these mirrors that tell us to be acceptable to be value to be loved.

Here's all the condition and in the crazy thing is they change and if I think that's what makes it so challenging and then God gives us the mirror of his word and in Ephesians it says every spiritual blessing. He says before you did anything I wanted you I love you and I adopted you into my family with all the rights and all the privileges I lavish my love on you.

I paid a big price for you ivory means you figure really valuable.

I sealed you with my spirit, your safe. And I think it's taking those kind of big theological words that are true, and then translating them to those huge emotional needs of how do you overcome the rejection and fear and shame and guilt which are really just the symptoms of I don't measure up. I'm not doing well on unacceptable so that is been studying that and then for me it was trying hard to believe that doesn't work, you have to renew your mind and in the book. As you know I talk about these cards where we would write out my wife and I did the lies that we believe you know you're only acceptable with people like you. You're only acceptable if you perform well, work hard, and that other people were successful. Blah blah blah and so it was at a point of crisis with us where we were very committed to the Lord. We were in seminary at the time and were having major, major marriage problems because we both came from alcoholic families and we just had a very godly pastor counselor who helped us realize how we solve ourselves was the world's view, as opposed to what God says about us and we weep with those little cards for two years. If you can imagine.

We sat on the couch before I went to work and we read them out loud and then put them on her bed stand and we begin over time to really believe that were left here yeah yeah the shame of our past doesn't have to find a line that's encouraging for people because you walk through all of that.

So anybody who is struggling with it now can understand your pastor who, speaking from experience, it isn't just theology coming forward from Ephesians 1 through three kind of on an intellectual level but you've walked this road and you know it's interesting when you're talking about that ship it strikes me that when people come with this premise that I'm only good enough… If I do this or if I look like this are what have you.

Jesus is the one who said I've not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I was thinking of that verse, Luke 532 when you are saying that is not like man and how much is that driven home when were reading that wonderful section of Ephesians that God does not look upon you the way that man looks upon you, and that's a game changer. I would think for a lot of people. I think it is. And I think it is one of those where I do believe many many many many people and those listening to you invite me right now intellectually believe that. But if you look at their behavior. When I look at my behavior.

I believed all that quote intellectually, but I think it's it wasn't until I paired it with the kind of behaviors that were tripping us up if what I did in the book was I to I cut it like plate spiritual jeopardy and out of one of my favorite things I like to watch Ellen in jeopardy.

As you know they give you the answer with the question. The answer is that you're wanted. What's the question, how do you overcome rejection. The answer is you are valuable, infinitely valuable what what what was the question how do I overcome feeling insignificant and worthless you the answer is that your secure your safe.

You're in Christ and the question is how overcome the fears that dominate my life and so I did a short chapter on rejection and insignificance in fear and shame and guilt and purposelessness to set up.

This is where were living. And then I flipped it and said okay now this is what God says is the answer to that. And then at the end of every chapter. I took those same cards that we reviewed and I put them in a way where people could actually practically start the process, not just I don't want them to read the book and go and go try really hard to believe what's true, I wanted to give them a tool where something I'm going to as a man thinks in his heart, so you become the mind set on the flesh is that the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace. I wanted people to start a journey to renew their mind and begin to believe if I watch my wife go from someone who was beautiful, smart, and godly, but look in the mirror and thought she was completely unlovable and a disaster to someone.

It was like a flower blooming over the years, she had the worst self-concept of anyone I've ever met and it is. It is amazing what can happen. Then I saw her sit with my daughter during those formative years and go through these cards in these truths so our heart is really help people believe what's already true of us is so liberating. Will is and that's really where the rubber meets the road is when you can internalize the truth that you already know in your head and you had mentioned ship this section that you have in the book on the lie of rejection and the truth that you are wanted and you are ready reference. This said the beginning parts of Ephesians chapter 1 where Neil Paul talks about. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world and in love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ.

How do you go from reading this to believing it to internalizing it well. I would say it is the book of my best shot at how to do that. But in in in brief, getting honest enough with yourself or you recognize unbelieving life, because we all have great levels of denial and and kinda looking at while I wonder what's behind me pleasing people. I wonder why I feel so nervous and anxious around people that are powerful or I wonder why I feel so compulsive that I have to my house have to be perfect or everything has to be perfect for me.

We all have enough issues right that I mean would lease with them) or are are made shortly. Forgive the folders that we know is I think the first thing is pausing and saying okay there's lies behind that there's there's lies behind my addictions, my struggles, my fears, my anxiety and then you identify what those are in and then I think the next thing is to say okay I Lord you have now. Permission to work in my life. The energy that we spend trying to cover up things trying to mask where we struggle. It is inordinate and I got got I give you permission to sell side, I want to I recognize a lie and then what I want to do is I want to focus his mind on the truth I let it hang on just a moment shipping room with us is because discover your true self, will be coming back on tenant for today right after this. Every day babies and their mothers swims are fighting for life, with abortion being the leading cause of death. I am on my me that I was in the middle of the ministry of pre-born has pregnancy centers nationwide standing by to help young moms in crisis. Choose life freeborn is the largest provider of free ultrasound sessions in the country by letting the mother see her baby in the womb and hear the baby's heartbeat.

She's 80% more likely to choose life for her baby. When I'm there are any team. Ultrasound is where faith is like to start crying I can and sometimes the blessing is doubled.

Would you join with pre-born in Janet Mefford today to help save 400 babies by the end of the year for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help save five babies from abortion and now through match your gift will be doubled to donate dial 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or there's a banner to click Janet this is Janet Mefford for Bible league international. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. These words written early in John's Gospel remind us in this Advent season that God sent his son to be our Lord and Savior that many Christians in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have never read those words or the Christmas story in Luke two why because they have no access to the Bible.

So in this season of giving. Please join by the league in sending God's word to Bible as believers around the world for only five dollars or $50 for 10 Bibles $500 for 100 call 801 ESW ORD.

That's 800 yes word or there's a Bible league banner and Janet changed distinction to foreign yes somebody's in this gift you can give somebody that's 800 YDS WO RD or there's a banner to click Janet you're listening to Janet Mefford today and no ears. Janet welcome back great to have you with us and great to have with us Chip Ingram teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge.

His book is called Discover your true self, how to silence the lies of your past and actually experience who God says you are. Who are we in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1 through three is the passage that Chip uses to base this book on and and what a great section of Scripture were talking about Chip.

We were talking about one of the things that you mentioned in the book the lie of rejection that people tend to believe, but we know from God's word that we are wanted and you said you really have to recognize if you're in that position that there are lies behind believing that you have to figure out what they are and then make the move to say Lord work in my life.

What kind of difference does it make. Have you seen like in your own marriage is you were discussing when you really do grasp the truth that God loves you and God wants you and that God has expressed this to you. What difference does that end up making when you really do grasp that truth. What I discovered when I began to realize that I'm already loved is my workaholism, my people pleasing those things that I mean I would hear the phone ring as a young pastor and I would jump up like you to solve this right now and my wife was a withdrawer and it was like you. Why should I even try that or no one would ever want me here. I don't have anything significant to say and as she begin to renew her mind.

Then she began to realize will wait a second, God is uniquely made me going to use the hurt and even the pains in my past. I'm a trophy of his grace and fill it up when I saw was a woman who bloomed who actually ended up teaching other women, the things she was learning and that would put some of the things on cards that we just can't keep them in stock because what we find is people are just so desperate when it comes to this area, but they don't have a practical way in renewing your mind. You don't be conformed to this world but be transformed if not, doesn't say by trying super hard and you know telling yourself you never do that again if by the renewing of your mind, and as we renewed our minds then you experience a good acceptable perfect will of God. So it's been a journey I don't want people to hear.

You know there's a magic pill or I'm gonna review a few cards and read a few chapters and overnight. Everything changes but I've just stuff counseled so many people over the years, and as you if you know that was it. You going to training. It is like to never run a marathon. You walk in you jog and why you you run a mile and then little by little, I will tell you it's just been the most liberating, exciting thing to see in our life and in the people around us all.

That's really needs and and it's great to hear because it really gives people hope some other lies that you talk about ship the line of insignificance. The lie of fear.

Stopping on this one.

The lie of fear there. There's a lot of fear, especially right now and there's a lot of fear of people and circumstances in the future and all of this. I think many people feel very insecure what you have to say to those people about the need to understand that you are secure. As a Christian you know God says that I've not given you a spirit of fear but a spirit of power and love and it's interesting sound mind or some translations will say self-discipline is at the pretty hard for to translate that into the mind where your emotions are not dictating how you respond to things and in Ephesians 1. He says that he has sealed with his spirit. As a down payment for our future hope. In other words God for all that I've promised to you.

Here's the guarantee. My spirit sealed you for me.

You're safe with me. Nothing and no one can pull you out of my hands got height nor depth, or length, or principalities or powers.

Nothing can separate you from my love and I think when we begin to believe that not just acknowledge that that's probably true for someone somewhere and that's true not because you do something or if you do something that's true because you're united with Christ. Janet make this as were helpful. Often when I teach on being united with Christ, people can't get it to what what I do I put a big like a tank of water and then I take a big heavy bolt, the people can see and I say I drop it in the water and it sinks to the bottom and and I ask you know I wanted thinking I wonder about gravity is really heavy and then I take a little wooden block and I and I put it on the water and float toward what is that float Goto bump it's of a different nature to different substance to take a big thick rubber band and I take another bolt and I wrap it around the bolt and the piece of wood and then I put it in this big fish thing and they clean up the camera Pro close and it floats and then I say to people.

So why is it floating and they go well because it's attached to the wood. In other words what people if you could craft when he says we've died with Christ, we've been raised with Christ, what it means is the properties and the nature of Jesus are now yours. God sees you at the lens through his righteousness, and what's true of him is now true of you. And when we can grasp that you are.

You don't have to earn it.

You don't have to prove it.

You you are safe, that changes everything. And this book is about helping people grasp that in what God says is when you're a part of my family.

You can choose to fear, but you have to.

You can choose to respond to people's rejection because you know you didn't grow up in right side of the neighborhood or your different color than someone else, or because you think differently than them. You can choose to be afraid. But how can you be afraid when you're secure in my arms I made you I love you chest where you are and will talk to ourselves, thousands of times a day.

It's changing what we say to ourselves, and informing that with what the Spirit says about and I just it changes.

That's how real spiritual growth occurs, that's true.

I love that illustration I think that's perfect and and there is something to seen it like that. That really helps you wrap your mind around it.

I think that's a tremendous way of illustrating the point. It is something else that you discuss in the book tip is the lie of shame but also the lie of guilt. Now a lot of Christians might immediately say, but we are guilty. That's why we need Christ. Yet there is something that we sometimes experience in the way of false guilt. This is the passage that you're talking about in Ephesians 21 through 10 with that famous you want a verse that I memorized when I was about seven years old. For by grace you been saved through faith and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not as a result of work, so that no one may boast. Talk about this line of guilt out there is a sense in which we absolutely are guilty, and then we are in Christ, we are no longer guilty how you work through that passage and explain that concept to people will after chapter 1 hold a this is who you are in Christ and in the middle of chapter 1 he prays that they could actually grasp and understand all that's true of them in any existing contract and then he says, but don't forget where you came from, you know, this is who you were apart from Christ, you were dead in your sins hostile to God, etc. and then there's this huge contrast but God, who is rich in mercy and grace and love you for gave. He rescued it, and then he talked about will how do you receive that is the verse that you just quoted that leads to your future for you are his workmanship, literally the word is your his pole in your his masterpiece created in Christ Jesus unto literally a good work. These prepared for you from the foundations of the earth.

And so I think we understand that we were justly guilty before God and when we trust Christ, God has removed and covered our guilt by the work of Christ is spirit comes into our life were transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light we become his children and so our legal guilt before God is removed and not that's half of it.

The second half is then very righteousness of Christ is imputed to census again. I think people of these are big theological words but in a practical way it and please you know if if people could visualize you know may be a big computer screen on the sky itself, and their name comes up on the computer screen and on the left side is their name and under it. Everything they've ever done. And on the right side.

You know there's a column in its Jesus in all of his righteousness when you trusted Christ. God went over with the cursor and he pushed delete all your sins are removed and then he said click and drag and he pulled the very righteousness of Jesus over to your side and then lifted the below cursor and then she is righteousness. And now he says this is who you really are. So when you mess up because we still choose to do wrong things you do have real guilt and you need restored fellowship say say Lord all point. When I said that I was no way that was all about me or when I lie just to cover up what I did and the Holy Spirit makes that clear.

And so, yes, we confess that, but what I'm talking about in the book is.

Some people feel guilty because they didn't do what everyone wanted him to do. Some people feel guilty because it's not getting to know God. But how many chapters do I need to read it. If I only read two chapters instead of four chapters.

I must be a bad person. There's all kind of guilt that is rooted not in who you actually are. That is so beautiful and it so well setting. You can read more about it in Chip Ingram's book discover your true self, so good to have you on the program ship and keep up the good work and God bless you. Thanks so very much. You're welcome. God bless you and thank you for joining us and Janet Mefford. Today we will see you next

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